Interesting EH/Adam Comparison (in General)


AdminNightStrike March 22 2007 8:24 PM EDT

Inspired by my other thread:
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0023YJ

In terms of NW:
An EH of +48 = an Adam of +89
An EH of +49 = an Adam of +92


Let's assume a MM that casts for 100 damage each time. The EH will absorb 48 damage the first round, 24 the second, etc. The Adam will absorb 19 damage every round. I was very surprised to see how quickly the Adam overtook the EH:

Absorb -- Total

EH:
48 -- 48
24 -- 72
12 -- 84
6 -- 90
3 -- 93
2 -- 95
1 -- 96

Adam:
19 -- 19
19 -- 38
19 -- 57
19 -- 76
19 -- 95
19 -- 114
19 -- 133


So if your battles against a mage touch 5 rounds, an Adam is the better investment. The best part? PR weight.

AdminNightStrike March 22 2007 8:27 PM EDT

Note that this post is actually relevant, as opposed to my other item comparison =)

Sacredpeanut March 22 2007 8:32 PM EDT

Never used an EH but I assume the + also counts to AC?
Don't forget to add the magic reduction from the + to the EH as well.

Sacredpeanut March 22 2007 9:06 PM EDT

Basically EH should get about 10 damage reduction each round as well from the +48 AC.
I assume EH reduction occurs first then AC reduction is applied to the remaining damage which means you would get an extra 10 * (1-0.48) = 5.2 reduction in round 1, 10* (1-0.24) = 7.6 reduction in round 2, 8.8 in round 3 etc

Lumpy Koala March 22 2007 11:15 PM EDT

Also, if you factor in the dex reduction of Adam.... no further comments

Mikel March 22 2007 11:20 PM EDT

Well most players are only hoping to get about 3-4 rounds out of a Mage Wall anyways, it's more of an HP issue than Adam/EH issue. Toss in a MgS with that EH and that Mage Wall does a fine job.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] March 23 2007 12:11 AM EDT

doesnt the EH add the DD resistance was in addition to the AC reduction? so your values for the EH would be a little off

Nerevas March 23 2007 2:15 AM EDT

Yes as pit said you have to remember the EH has its own AC reduction ontop of the direct DD reduction.

[T]Vestax March 23 2007 3:28 AM EDT

If you're going to do some hard math, then do it right. Here is the table that includes what happens when AC is figured into the EH DD reduction. You'll note that the Adam and the EH come to about even at round 10, at least in this NW example. At round 11 and beyond the Adam is a better choice, be it not by much though.

It is also important to note two things. The first is that the Adam is cheaper to own then the EH. This allows you to put more into the NW and may affect the practical results. Also, the below calculations don't figure in ranged round penalties, which favors the Adam since the EH's most potent damage reduction would be wasted on the weakest FB and MM shots of the match.

Lots of other little things matter, if you meatshield the first blast of MM, then the Adam looks even better when compared to the EH. However, if you are taking MM shots starting from round 1, there is almost no good reason why you would be alive to see round 10.
           Elven Hauberk (+48)                                         Adamantite Cuirass (+89)
           EH Reduction / AC Reduction / Total   / Average Reduction    AC Reduction / Average Reduction
round 1    48.00%         5.24%          53.24%    53.24%               18.69%         18.69%
round 2    24.00%         7.66%          31.66%    42.45%               18.69%         18.69%
round 3    12.00%         8.87%          20.87%    35.26%               18.69%         18.69%
round 4     6.00%         9.48%          15.48%    30.31%               18.69%         18.69%
round 5     3.00%         9.78%          12.78%    26.81%               18.69%         18.69%
round 6     1.50%         9.93%          11.43%    24.24%               18.69%         18.69%
round 7     0.75%        10.00%          10.75%    22.32%               18.69%         18.69%
round 8     0.38%        10.04%          10.42%    20.83%               18.69%         18.69%
round 9     0.19%        10.06%          10.25%    19.65%               18.69%         18.69%
round 10    0.09%        10.07%          10.16%    18.70%               18.69%         18.69%
round 11    0.05%        10.07%          10.12%    17.92%               18.69%         18.69%

Flamey March 23 2007 3:34 AM EDT

Awesome table, vestax.

Also, AC protects against physical! *big grin*.

TheHatchetman March 23 2007 3:45 AM EDT

"If you're going to do some hard math, then do it right."

Figured I'd point out that EH magic reduction and Armor Class don't reduce at the same time... :P

[T]Vestax March 23 2007 3:47 AM EDT

"Figured I'd point out that EH magic reduction and Armor Class don't reduce at the same time... :P"

Errr... That's figured into the calculations I made already.

Flamey March 23 2007 4:03 AM EDT

I'm a little confused. How did you calculate the AC? and why or how does it rise with each round?

Sacredpeanut March 23 2007 5:26 AM EDT

Because AC is applied after the EH % reduction

QBJohnnywas March 23 2007 7:16 AM EDT

I've got a EH/Mage Shield wall on my team and a trad wall.

The trad wall with adam (+54, 1.3 mill NW) and mithril shield etc has currently 275 AC. The mage wall has only a EH (+35 1.5 mill NW) and mage shield (+25), with only 57 AC. In ranged the mage wall blocks more DD damage than the trad wall.

For instance:

"starfire's familiar's Fireball hit King Clown [15633], Sleepyhead [17393], Lets Do It [23544], Bedsitter [8723]"

That's with no other damage reduction in operation, as the opponent fizzles my Protection.

Ok, so that's first round, and as battles go into melee that effectiveness decreases in comparison. But if you are building a wall on a quick kill strategy then making it a mage wall seems to be a much better idea, if most of your opponents are MM/FB teams. If you want a wall to last into melee then a traditional wall might be better.

To summarize: I'd recommend a EH on an archer team wall, but an adam on a bloodlust/melee team. And these findings back that up.

QBJohnnywas March 23 2007 7:17 AM EDT

Interestingly though my ToA tank takes less damage in that round than my higher AC wall as well...

QBJohnnywas March 23 2007 7:20 AM EDT

This is a more typical example of a ranged attack on my team:

"-***The Super hero***-'s Fireball hit King Clown [19122], Sleepyhead [8546], Lets Do It [18084], Bedsitter [5342]"

noneedforthese March 23 2007 7:53 AM EDT

I have a potentially stupid question,

with the new HoC change, does the effect of the EH decay 3 times during ranged?
i.e. ranged round 1 full, round 2 half, round 3 half that, round 4 half that?

Or is it still counted as only 3 ranged rounds therefore round 1 and 2 full, and round 3 half, etc?

coz with the old HoC rule i think EH would've been definitely worth it considering the power of junction SF/MM mage firing 4 MMs in round 1....

AdminNightStrike March 23 2007 9:44 AM EDT

"If you're going to do some hard math, then do it right."

Jeez, Vestax... don't hold back on how you really feel......

QBRanger March 23 2007 10:05 AM EDT

The decay on the EH's Magic resistance begins the 2nd round of combat.

So with the HOC, the decay on the EH begins on the 2nd round of missile.

QBRanger March 23 2007 10:14 AM EDT

Jeez Vestax,

How does the constant AC reduction of the EH changed from round 1 to round 11?

I thought it was a constant .21% per + of the armor no matter what type of armor it is (ones that give AC of course).

If your going to do math, please do it correctly.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 23 2007 10:16 AM EDT

nightstrike, you're getting to be almost as sensitive as Miss Polly Prissy Pants above me, do you need a hug?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] March 23 2007 10:48 AM EDT

PM, reduction of total damge.
Since the EH has reduced magical reduction at that point, the AC reduction of the total incoming damage will be increased.

QBRanger March 23 2007 10:51 AM EDT

But there are plenty other factors involved.

Including the + of other armor, possible TOE, a MgS.

One table does not really tell the tale.

AdminNightStrike March 23 2007 10:54 AM EDT

At least I sparked more excitement than with my last comparison thread....

I'm guessing that just like with the MgS, your AC without the EH matters in terms of the efficiency of the EH.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 23 2007 11:21 AM EDT

yup, and rather than looking at % reductions I prefer to look at the virtual hit points granted to a minion by armor. (Avoid's method)

GO PATS March 23 2007 12:04 PM EDT

Moosh like EH, no like AC.

[T]Vestax March 23 2007 6:16 PM EDT

If you haven't figured out by now, the EH DD reduction goes before the reduction from AC. The AC of the EH reduces the remaining damage by a constant 10.08%. If only 52% of the damage remains, then 52% of 10.08% is the amount of damage reduced by the AC, which is 5.24%.

PM, you are correct. The above does not account for other factors, such as the AC Enchantment bonus of other armor pieces and the Mage Shield. However, the addition of a Mage Shield will have no effect on the results because it reduces the damage first and reduces it consistently.

Additional AC on the other hand does effect the outcome. However, calculations show that the affect is minimal at best. Below is a table similar to the one I posted before, except it assumes and additional +100 AC from other gear worn. You'll note that the EH becomes less effective then the Adam at reducing DD damage at the same time as before, round 4. Assuming constant bombardment from the same DD damage, the EH is only out-classed by the Adam during round 12, instead of round 11.
           Elven Hauberk (+48) w/ +100 AC                               Adamantite Cuirass (+89) w/ +100 AC
           EH Reduction / AC Reduction / Total   / Average Reduction    AC Reduction / Average Reduction
round 1    48.00%         16.16%         64.16%    64.16%               36.69%         36.69%
round 2    24.00%         23.62%         47.62%    55.89%               36.69%         36.69%
round 3    12.00%         27.35%         39.35%    50.38%               36.69%         36.69%
round 4     6.00%         29.22%         35.22%    45.59%               36.69%         36.69%
round 5     3.00%         30.15%         33.15%    43.90%               36.69%         36.69%
round 6     1.50%         30.61%         32.11%    41.93%               36.69%         36.69%
round 7     0.75%         30.85%         31.60%    40.46%               36.69%         36.69%
round 8     0.38%         30.96%         31.34%    39.31%               36.69%         36.69%
round 9     0.19%         31.02%         31.21%    38.41%               36.69%         36.69%
round 10    0.09%         31.05%         31.14%    37.69%               36.69%         36.69%
round 11    0.05%         31.06%         31.11%    37.09%               36.69%         36.69%
round 12    0.02%         31.07%         31.09%    36.59%               36.69%         36.69%

The biggest factors have more to do with when you are taking the damage, not with what other gear you are wearing. If you avoid the first round or two, maybe with an enchanter meat-shield, then the Adam becomes much more useful then the EH. If your minion is taking MM shots starting in round one, then it will take forever for the the Adam to catch up in effectiveness.

AdminNightStrike March 23 2007 11:50 PM EDT

Average reduction isn't important. What you need is total damage reduced thus far. For instance, if you reduce 40 points round 1 and 20 points round 2, then it's 60 points total being reduced.

AdminNightStrike March 24 2007 3:14 AM EDT

Oh, nevermind.. that's the same thing, isn't it? 40 points and 20 points off 100 damage each shot is an average of 30% -- (.4+.2) / .6 = 0.3 -- and 60 points total out of 200 points total (100 each shot) is 60 / 100 = 0.3. So....... nevermind. You're right.

Sacredpeanut March 24 2007 3:29 AM EDT

Nice work Vestax, you summarized everything nicely.
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