The end of the 10-highest-scores rule (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan March 27 2007 10:49 PM EDT

Instead of exempting the top 10 players from penalties from fighting down, everyone getting 6 BA every 10 minutes (yeah, this category was re-introduced) will get no penalty. (The 6 BA category starts at 90% of the top player's MPR -- not VPR.)

Others will also get reduced penalty corresponding to their BA rate. Someone getting 7 BA will have 25% of the "normal" penalty for fighting down. Someone getting 8 BA will have 50%, etc. Only those at 10 BA will get 100% of the penalty.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 27 2007 10:51 PM EDT

6 BA, ouch

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 27 2007 10:51 PM EDT

Wow Crazy... yet so right

AdminJonathan March 27 2007 10:52 PM EDT

"fight rewards are adjusted accordingly to increase whenever your BA regeneration rate decreases"

it's even in Help

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 27 2007 10:53 PM EDT

so we should all see a rise in rewards if we get <10 BA per refresh?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 27 2007 10:53 PM EDT

Cash (total) $96
XP (per minion) 7

Challenge bonus -75% (why is this negative?)

That's really low for someone who use to get me atleast 0% rewards challenge

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 27 2007 10:54 PM EDT

and did this change the price per BA?

QBRanger March 27 2007 10:55 PM EDT

I take it the amount of BA able to purchased went down and its cost went up.

This change really makes those at 6BA less able to clan fight adequately with less BA a day to use.

This change really is not nice at all.

AdminJonathan March 27 2007 10:58 PM EDT

of course, BA price is always proportional to the xp you earn per BA

... btw I'm going to have to adjust the BA groups... only 2 people are within 90% of sutekh's mpr :)

QBRanger March 27 2007 10:58 PM EDT

Cash: 1
XP per minion: 0


QBRanger March 27 2007 11:00 PM EDT


QBOddBird March 27 2007 11:01 PM EDT

Well, decreases your clanfighting ability, but it makes it much easier to hit all of your BA each day. Pick your poison, I suppose. ;) I'd like the change if I were up there, seeing as how it'd make hitting it all easier....but that's just me.

AdminJonathan March 27 2007 11:07 PM EDT

okay, penalty should be sane again. sorry about that.

6 BA group now starts at 75% of top mpr. (12 people fall into that slot.) 7 BA starts at 60% of top; another 10 fall there.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 27 2007 11:14 PM EDT

Watch out top MPR guys... when you hit 3 mil mpr Jon will drop you to 5 a refresh >.<

QBRanger March 27 2007 11:19 PM EDT

At least now I get 4 hours 20 min to sleep between BA refreshing.

QBOddBird March 27 2007 11:21 PM EDT

2/refresh would be just great for me, so I could just sign on once a day and burn all my BA at the accordingly adjusted fight rewards. *grins* I'd never miss BA again!

AdminNightStrike March 27 2007 11:50 PM EDT

"This change really makes those at 6BA less able to clan fight adequately with less BA a day to use. "

That's good. It disinclines all the top players to be in the same clan. Or, if they are, they will no longer be ranked 1 and 2.

Mikel March 28 2007 12:03 AM EDT

It's a BR nerf for sure, but we'll be fine :) Can't say I wasn't wondering when someone would hit the 6 per rate.

horseguy001 March 28 2007 12:53 AM EDT

"7 BA starts at 60% of top; another 10 fall there"

I'm still getting 7 BA per refresh...but I am only 1.2 mil MPR, Unless I am doing the math wrong 7 BA should start around 1.4 mil MPR

Unappreciated Misnomer March 28 2007 7:15 AM EDT

thanks for the extra hour of sleep jon.

Flamey March 28 2007 7:44 AM EDT

I'm getting 7/10 at literally just under 1 mil MPR.

QBsutekh137 March 28 2007 10:12 AM EDT

Here I thought I had just lost my mind last night when I saw my BA go from 0 to 6. Got to remember to read those Changelogs! *smile* Nifty change, Jon!

QBsutekh137 March 28 2007 10:36 AM EDT

So in a way, this slightly benefits mages, since the exemption goes by MPR instead of score. But rewards are still based on total PR (I assume). So, someone with a too-small MPR for exemption but a lot of gear making total PR high is at a bit of a disadvantage...

AdminJonathan March 28 2007 12:05 PM EDT

I pushed the categories down again -- 7 BA now starts at 40% of max MPR and 6 BA at 60%.

(Before yesterday, 7 started at 45%. Lower rate ratios are unchanged.)

AdminNightStrike March 28 2007 1:30 PM EDT

Is that why my buyable BA keeps going down? It dropped to 400, then to 327.

AdminNightStrike March 28 2007 1:31 PM EDT

The price also skyrocketed from 984 to 1131 each.

AdminNightStrike March 28 2007 1:35 PM EDT

"I pushed the categories down again -- 7 BA now starts at 40% of max MPR and 6 BA at 60%."

Are all the categories based on MPR instead of VPR?

[T]Vestax March 28 2007 3:13 PM EDT

6 BA is awesome. It really allows those that have worked so hard to relax even longer between full BA refreshes. A nice perk for those that still have lives.

Miandrital March 28 2007 3:19 PM EDT

NS, from the first post:
"(The 6 BA category starts at 90% of the top player's MPR -- not VPR.) "

AdminNightStrike March 28 2007 3:42 PM EDT

Mian -- yes, that's the 6 BA category. In his most recent post, Jon mentioned that it applies to the 7 BA category. Look at the wiki to see why I ask.

Mikel March 28 2007 8:24 PM EDT

Still getting 7, when I should be getting 8.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] March 28 2007 10:06 PM EDT

I imagine that BA count doesn't take effect until after cache flush.

Mikel March 28 2007 10:45 PM EDT

We've already had a cache flush since this was done. If Pops, Sut and co are getting 6, then we should be getting 8.

QBRanger March 28 2007 10:47 PM EDT

I have been getting 6 even before Cashe Flush yesterday.

Almost immediately after the changelog was posted I was getting 6 BA.

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 11:34 AM EDT

Mikel, I'm confused... You are more than 40% of my MPR (you are around 50%). That means you get 7/10. What makes you think you should be getting 8?

Mikel March 29 2007 11:47 AM EDT

hmmm maybe I was looking at your score instead.

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 12:32 PM EDT

Or maybe thought 60% instead of 40%...I got very confused myself when trying to calc, because it is a downward calc...the higher you are, the less BA you get, so it is easy to transpose terms in your head. *smile* The cutoff for 7/10 right now, 40% of my MPR, is getting close to right around 1 million since I am almost at 2.5 million MPR.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 29 2007 6:35 PM EDT

Oh man! This get's a big *HUG* from me! :D

Come here Jon, You know you want it! ;)

Relic March 31 2007 3:32 PM EDT

I am almost 1 million MPR behind Sut and only getting 6 BA. I think the buckets need a little more tweaking...

QBsutekh137 March 31 2007 4:17 PM EDT

You don't want the exemption, Glory?

You are at 60% of my MPR...that means 6/10... Welcome to the Big Dance! *smile*

Relic March 31 2007 5:05 PM EDT

I don't think there should be _any_ penalty for fighting down. You just wouldn't get a bonus and since your rewards are based on Score/PR ratio fighting down will not net you much other than lots of wins. I don't think anyone should receive a penalty percentage per say, so yes, I want the _exemption_, but I also think everyone should get it. The difference in BA regeneration, available opponents, and ability to change strategies as you climb the ranks is penalty enough.

My point from my above post is that, yes, while I have almost 1.6 mil MPR, I am around 900K MPR below the top MPR in the game. Fighting everyday without missing any BA and using a RoE I would be a _very_, _very_ long time in catching up to you. Since I do not want to, nor can I afford 3 minions for almost 30 mil a pop, I am doomed to stay stagnant and no longer receive negative bonuses (yeah for me!) for a long time. And to reference your post in another thread. I ask you.....where is the _fun_ in this scenario? =)

Mikel March 31 2007 5:31 PM EDT

Glory has a very valid point. It's next to impossible to close the gap of 900k mpr at the same rate as the person whom is 900k mpr above him.

Mikel April 4 2007 1:19 AM EDT

Bumping, and I think 20-25% would be about right for the 6 ba rate to kick in. 10% was too small and 25% is too much.

AdminNightStrike April 4 2007 7:14 AM EDT

How does changing the BA rate help you close the gap? Rewards are supposed to be adjusted so that X time units of BA spent yields the same rewards at any rate.

Mikel April 4 2007 7:31 AM EDT

easy, the higher you get in PR, the lower the rewards irregardless of the adjustments made. I still made more exp at a rate of 9 ba than 8 or 7 per fight.

Mikel April 4 2007 7:42 AM EDT

To make myself clearer, my analysis includes the challenge bonus modifications into it. A drop of 70% in challenge bonus is a pretty steep number.

AdminNightStrike April 4 2007 7:56 AM EDT

But BA rate doesn't affect challenge bonus. So an hour of BA at 7/10 vs an hour of BA at 8/10 should yield the same rewards at the same challenge bonus.

Mikel April 4 2007 8:11 AM EDT

Key word: at the same challenge bonus.

That number is not static as you move up the charts, unless you sit on untrained xp to hide your PR, then you might not notice it as much. You are at a rate of 7, can you get a 100% challenge bonus? The best I can pull down is a 70% and that still is less exp than i was getting at a higher ba rate with a challenge at 100%. The theory behind it is great, but the actuality is not.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 4 2007 8:13 AM EDT

But you are still getting bonuses whereas the top players are just not getting penalised.
The chance to catch up is still there, it's just a little different now.

Relic April 4 2007 10:07 AM EDT

I think Mikel's point (which I agree with) is that as you raise in MPR not only are you getting less BA regeneration, you also experience a tremendous drop in fight rewards because the amount of players up in the 25% to 40% range is very limited, so the _exemption_ is nice if you want to fight down but in order to maximize your rewards you don't really want to fight down.

Can someone explain to me to reason we have the difference in BA regeneration as MPR increases? If everyone has the same BA regeneration, and NUB/NCB characters get their bonus exp, I am not seeing a need to keep the tier level BA drop off.

QBsutekh137 April 4 2007 10:16 AM EDT

Mikel, you just answered your own close the gap because you can achieve higher positive challenge bonus. Guess how many people I can fight, beat, and get a challenge bonus? Zero. How many can you get?

That closes the gap. That's your answer. Yes, it gets harder to close that gap as you get higher. Just like it got harder and harder for me when I used my NCB. I see no reason why your experience should be any different.

As far as Glory's point, negative challenge bonus comes from the score/PR ratio being too low. To say to do away with negative challenge bonus but still make rewards lower based on the lower score/PR ratio is at odds with itself. Negative bonus is inherent to fighting lower scores.

Here's the way it works (as far as I know) for any non-exempt person:

-- Standard reward is calculated. This reward is consistent no matter if you get 10/10 BA or 6/10 BA, because it is pro-rated to match the accrual rate. Having an NCB or NUB multiplies a bonus (the bonus rate on your character page) into this standard. This yields what I will call the "average reward".
-- "Their score" and "your total PR" are then used to calculate a challenge bonus in some way. The higher their score in proportion to your PR, the more positive bonus you get. The lower their score in regards to your PR, the more negative your challenge bonus goes. This calculation yields the "challenge bonus". Jonathan has been nice enough to display this bonus in battle logs (previously, we were in the dark).
-- There is then randomization to rewards. This does not affect average rewards, but may affect rewards in any single fight. We will call that the "random factor".
-- Final Reward = Average Reward x Challenge Bonus x Random Factor

The only thing that might be missing is whether or not money and experience are treated the same way (for any given fight). I have had fights where experience is small but money is large (wacky times not included), and vice versa, so the above sequence might be applied separately for experience and then money. In fact, probably so, since a NUB gets bonus on both experience and money while an NCB gets it on experience but not money.

And my thoughts could be 100% wrong. But that is how I believe it works, meaning that there can be no such thing as doing away with negative challenge bonus but still keep score/PR ratio in the reward equation. They are one in the same.

QBsutekh137 April 4 2007 10:37 AM EDT

Glory, you just answered your own question as well.

Lower BA accrual is due to the fact that fight lists get smaller... I have around 10-12 decent targets (clan fighting) in my list. If I got 10/10 accrual, and wanted to buy the BA for the day, I would be clicking/waiting/click a LOT.

Now, I do believe you have a point for the fightlist "doldrums" that occur in the mid range of the score ladder... There, clan fights are even harder to find (so I am told), and those folks are probably still at 8 or 9 BA rates. That means a lot of fighting using a small fightlist = zero fun.

I have always seen the lower BA rates as somewhat of a reward for longevity, too. I've paid my dues, so now I don't need to scramble back to a PC every 160 minutes. Don't get me wrong, 6/10 was quite the surprise to me... Going from 8 to 7 is a 12.5% reduction in BA to use, going from 7 to 6 is a further 14.3% reduction... I wasn't expecting it, but I like it.

Mikel April 7 2007 6:05 PM EDT

Actually sut, you got the advantage of a 7 BA rate much longer than I will be able to. You got it up to over 2 mil in MPR. And I still think 900k mpr is not that easy to make up if we are at the same rate. It's not just me that I'm worried about, it's the players that don't have any NCB/NUB bonus of any kind. How many more fights will they need to get in just to have a chance at catching you while you are still fighting if they are at the same rate as you? Do the math, how many years will it take?

QBRanger April 7 2007 6:19 PM EDT

I personally do not see the problem.

Rewards should be scaled based up the BA regeneration rate.

I am getting just as much xp from 6 fights then I did with 7. My rewards per fight is higher with 6 but overall xp/money is almost identical.

IE, during xp time, using all my stored BA and bought BA over 1 hour I used to get 40k xp per minion. Now at the new regeneration rate and with less available bought BA, today I managed to get 42k xp per minion. However, opposed to past xp times, I cut my fightlist down to just 7 from its normal 11.

Mikel April 7 2007 6:57 PM EDT

We'll see soon enough, I'll be moving into the 6 rate in the next few days. I still think 7 will generate more overall xp for a minion than 6 will.
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