My FF is not firing in melee sometimes. (in General)

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 4:51 PM EDT

My FF is not firing in melee. Sometimes. Sometimes he does nothing in rounds 5 and 6, other times he fires in both (frying my team), etc. This is all against Critters. I suspect it is HoC related. My FF is junctioned to a minion carrying a whip (so as to make him stand behind the familiar).

I don't know what else to post. I could post fight logs, but trust me. Sometimes he just doesn't fire, sometimes he always fires when he should. Battles ranged from 4 to 6 rounds.

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 4:54 PM EDT

I think I see what it is.

Joe is killing Critters last-man-standing, but then the corpse rises because of VA. But because the target seems "dead" to the FF (standing behind Joe), the FF doesn't fire.

This seems odd. If there is only one target left, I think all guns should fire, putting the opponent as far in the ground as possible. Sure, if VA still brings him back, more power to him. But a VA "death" should not be allowed to fool my second round of offense.

Adminedyit [Superheros] March 29 2007 4:54 PM EDT

Your familiar really likes me, every now and then i feed him milk and cookies (chocolate chips are his favorite) we hang out on sundays and watch movies (he likes the towering inferno) so please sut don't yell at the poor guy just because he's trying to help a friend :8^)

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 4:59 PM EDT

It gets better. Critters can tie me because of this scenario:

-- Joe kills Critters tank in Round 5.
-- FF does not fire, because Critters tank is dead.
-- Critters takes his whack, kills Joe, gets enough VA to come back to life.

-- FF fires now, because low and behold! A target!
-- FF also burns the remaining team members to a crisp
-- FF also dies, because AMF finally catches up to him, and Critters hits him. This means all of Hubbell's minions are dead.
-- Critters, though finishing off the FF, still is too far dead to come back from VA this time. He dies. For real.


This is the most fantastic mix of FF, AMF, targeting, and VA that I have ever seen. I love it! But I would still like my whole team to deliver its offensive payload. In my opinion, tanks should not be allowed to use death as a way to dodge. Especially when a mage does not have similar capabilities (no VA ability).

AdminJonathan March 29 2007 5:02 PM EDT

hmm, this is tricky

because mages will generally not be pleased to fire at dead targets since that means taking more AMF damage

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 5:04 PM EDT

Only dead target if target was last one left...and has VA? Dang, you are right, though... So tanks do hit a dead target, even if the second tank to hit?

QBBarzooMonkey March 29 2007 5:04 PM EDT

"In my opinion, tanks should not be allowed to use death as a way to dodge."

That's classic! I just had to comment on it's comic brilliance! (I'm being serious - I laughed out loud...)


AdminJonathan March 29 2007 5:06 PM EDT

yeah, tanks will target "dead" guys with VA some more (but only if there is nobody else to hit first)

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 5:08 PM EDT

Glad you liked that, BM! *smile*

This is tough...would I want my FF to fire and take the AMF _and_ roast my team? Maybe not. There is no way you can check enough stuff to decide on that targeting... I mean, what if there was VA, but I dispelled it? Though I suppose you know VA is involved round by round from other means...

My personal opinion would be to leave it, now that you point out AMF and FF backlash..unless you can think of something more elegant...

QBJohnnywas March 29 2007 5:10 PM EDT

All of this just goes to show how dumb tanks actually are; and how super intelligent and cool mages are. Tanks simply don't know where to stop, even when all that's left is a few limbs they're still hitting away. Meanwhile that FF is off getting himself some coffee and some doughnuts, reading the paper, getting his nails done...

Tricky one for you Sut, more damage dealt against a corpse who may just come back to life, or take the hit off AMF for the sake of a corpse who may just not come back to life......

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 5:13 PM EDT

Not only the suicidal hit off AMF, the homicidal splash on the rest of the team! That one shot can end Hubbell entirely at that point! *smile*

AdminNightStrike March 29 2007 5:13 PM EDT

This comes down to the fact that despite the general idea that everyone in a round fires at the same time, not everyone actual fires at exactly the same time.

It seems like something like VA should be applied instantly instead of at the end of the round.

The same question would arise given TSA-generated HP.

And yes, the dodging death line is one for the books.

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 5:23 PM EDT

Instant VA application (and subsequent real-time flip of the "dead" flag) would make it fair, in my eyes. If he's back and my FF kills my whole team, (and him), so be it. That's more like a "real" battle, and makes the intra-round dynamics make more sense.

However, application of the TSA is purely a post-round construct. Should that be applied post-round if minion is still alive, but during-round in the event the minion dies? Or wait, can a TSA bring someone back to life? Someone already asked that, I am just brain-dead. If so, I would think the TSA should be changed to have an intra-round resuscitation effect. *smile*

Adminedyit [Superheros] March 29 2007 5:29 PM EDT

Instant VA application? VA is based on damage done per hit. How could this be instant? and i think the TSA regenerates after each hit as well.

On a side note sut do you know how many hours i stayed up at night figuring out the right blend of HP AMF and damage inflicted to get the death dodge to work?

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 5:37 PM EDT

VA is taken with each hit, yes, and it should be applied so as to instantly bring the tank back to life (in the eyes of the opposing team). That is what NS was saying, I think. Currently, the tank looks dead, but just comes back the next round.

But actually I'm not making much sense...there is no such thing as a blow-for-blow fight mechanism. One side goes, then the other goes, but it is treated as if they go all at once. There is no way to bring a tank back to life "mid-round", is there? Because there is no "mid-round"...?

TSA regenerates once per round, not per hit.

AdminNightStrike March 29 2007 5:40 PM EDT

TSA is applied per round, and I don't know if it can resurrect. That has a simple fix, though -- apply the damage at the beginning of the round. Yes, this changes some of the dynamics of it, but it still works.

Regarding the instant VA -- the point is that the Mage hits the tank and kills him. The second mage therefore doesn't fire. The tank hits the mage and draws VA to become alive again. This order of operations should be reversed -- Mage and Tank exchange blows, tank evaluates VA, then second mage tries to fire.

QBRanger March 29 2007 5:43 PM EDT

The TSA can resurrect.

My enchanter with it comes back from the dead often, especially when the PL kills him.

QBsutekh137 March 29 2007 5:59 PM EDT

NS, you are asking for a whole different type of battle dynamic -- a my minion then your minion type of deal -- that's not how it works, IIRC.

All the minions on one team go at once, then all the minions on the other team go. They each see things only through their own eyes. Then, goofy stuff like TSA and VA are analyzed at the end of the round.

Let's say it is four mages vs four mages: Fights are not like this:

Mage 1 of attacker fires
Mage 1 of defender fires
Mage 2 of attacker fires
Mage 2 of defender fires
Mage 3 of attacker fires
Mage 3 of defender fires
Mage 4 of attacker fires
Mage 4 of defender fires

It is this:

Mage 1 of attacker fires
Mage 2 of attacker fires
Mage 3 of attacker fires
Mage 4 of attacker fires
Mage 1 of defender fires
Mage 2 of defender fires
Mage 3 of defender fires
Mage 4 of defender fires

(correct me if I am wrong, it has been a looooong time since I tackled fight dynamics).

So, how could a VA-resurrect be applied "mid-round"? There isn't really a middle of the round.

The only parts that appear to be more dynamic are AMF backlash and the FF splash... If as the attacker I kill off some of my minions because of AMF and/or fireball splash, my opponent will already see them as dead when he takes his turn.

AdminNightStrike March 29 2007 6:14 PM EDT


Mikel March 29 2007 6:24 PM EDT

Awesome move edyit
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