Should Econ Clans be more... (in General)

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 6 2007 7:05 PM EDT

forger oriented?

As of right now, Being in an econ clan does not offer much but discounts. (which is nice, no complaints there) but i would like to see something that brings competition amongst these types of clans. The ranking system is to easily manipulated and the desire to become the "best" clan isn't there.

General Idea: i think that if Eclans would be better off as forging clans. Instead of Revenue there would be NW which indicates how much that clan has added in the past 24 hours, week, and month. The rewards system wouldn't have to fluctuate based on rank, however, but i think there would be a little more pride in being the top Eclan also adding more of a desire to become the best.

I wrote this up quickly because i didn't want to write a huge post and have only a few read it and also because i didn't want to make the effort when so many would only flame my idea. But heres the basicidea , maybe we can do something with it.

Talion April 6 2007 8:19 PM EDT

I think that is a good idea. Give a forging bonus according to where your clan is ranked.

Popsicle Man Supreme April 6 2007 8:34 PM EDT

top idea i thrid it

Yukk April 6 2007 8:40 PM EDT

I have to agree. Even though Econ Clans got a discount to forging added recently, it's still barely worth forging. I figure that I can make $200k by fighting all my BA for a day. I could then use this money to buy improvements at the blacksmith. Plus I make a whole bunch of exp. For someone making good challenge bonuses the fight rewards would obviously be a lot higher.
If, instead, I was to spend all those BA forging, I'd be lucky to forge $300k and on top of that I'd still have to pay $75k for the privilege of losing all that exp. (these are non clan numbers)
So for people forging for profit in a clan, they numbers would be slightly better, though there have been many discussions previously where the general consensus is that to make money, you're still better off fighting.

[RX3]Cotillion April 6 2007 8:45 PM EDT

There isn't a real point of different Econ clans really. Every econ clan should be merged as there isn't a difference in values or anything. The 'Revenue Generated' is pretty pointless as well. I vote for change!

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] April 6 2007 11:07 PM EDT

If they get that much lovin' they should all have "bunnikin's" added to their names !

Wasp [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] April 7 2007 2:20 AM EDT

Agreed, economic clans should be ranked by amount forged rather then money sent in. Maybe a better bonus is given (on top of the current one) for the top X clans, this way good forgers will stick together and benefit from cheaper forging fees, or some sort of boost, would make forging more worthwhile. Hope this makes sense, just woke up : )

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 7 2007 5:36 AM EDT

If you do that what happens to the people who are fighters but are also loansharks and prefer to keep out of normal clans?
The current system isn't great but making it run off forged NW only is unconstructive and only makes it worse.

Adminedyit [Superheros] April 7 2007 5:47 AM EDT

keep the discounts for all econ clans, and give them a ranking based on forging NW like fighting clans get for CP's. that way those in it for loan sharking still get the discount transfers and those in it for forging get a chance at a bonus to something they like doing.

TheHatchetman April 7 2007 6:07 AM EDT

i say help forgers all you can.

1)helping forgers gives them more money :)
2)helping forgers makes them more efiiciant (or at least more competative), so that fighters get their equipment back faster :)

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 7 2007 6:23 AM EDT

By all means help forgers but don't alienate the loaners by making it seem like there is no longer much incentive for them to be in an econ clan.
Don't forget, they are called economic clans, not forging clans.
If you're going to do something worthwhile, make it worthwhile for each type of participant, not just the one.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 7 2007 11:49 AM EDT

Zog: I think Iunderstand where you are coming from. I agree that loansharks shouldn't be nuked but i do think that the current way Eclans are ranked is pointless. The amount of revenue generated has no significant meaning because of it being the top clan and the last clan also has no purpose. Might i add that anyone can manipulate these numbers? Which only brings less value to them.

What i'm proposing would give motivation and reasoning to be the top clan. I am not suggesting taking away current discount rates but lowering them would probably occur if rewards were given based on rank. This would be in order to keep the rewards on an average scale ( so top clans don't receive an enormous discount compared to those without the bonus.) If, bonuses were given much like Standard clans receive I think this would establish motivation.

However, as i said in my initial post.

"The rewards system wouldn't have to fluctuate based on rank, however, but i think there would be a little more pride in being the top Eclan also adding more of a desire to become the best. "

The rewards system based on rank wouldn't have to fluctuate. Meaning the top clan would still receive the same discount as the clans before them. By doing things based on Forging NW would give meaning to the numbers generated. Which subsequently gives you reason to be the "best" clan because these numbers_cannot_be manipulated. It makes things competitive.

Loan sharks wouldn't be nuked for this other than there revenue not meaning a thing. Not very different from how things currently are.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 7 2007 12:09 PM EDT

But then what is the point in them being in an economic clan other than for the discount only?
They could be doing better for themselves by being in a bonus gaining standard clan and making much more money than it would cost them in higher transfer fees.
I know the current way is easily manipulated but you have to leave an ability for loansharks to contribute to the values otherwise they wouldn't truly be economic clans, still just forging clans (as forgers gain maximum bonus through both decreased forging and transfer fees).
If the current system is going to be changed then there needs to be a specific loaning system put in place which records only the interest payments coming into the clan.
You cannot be fair by only counting NW forged as due to what I previously mentioned, they would just be forging clans.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 7 2007 12:21 PM EDT

That is true, they would be forging clans but the current system is not working. They would only be there for the discount, Why be there for revenue generated when it means nothing?

Loaning isn't a profession. It's more of a side job. People that loan do not spend BA. They could contribute to the values if they were to forge the their extra BA but if they chose to fight then so be it. They would be better off in a fighter clan.

The new way would be more like "Forger clans." Just like standard clans are "fighter clans." These are the two professions of cb, loaner sharks isn't one of them.

Also, instead of tossing the current system out maybe we could keep it; take away all forging bonuses and leave Loaners to do their own thing within these clans. Then create a Forging clan leaving 3 different types of clans to join but also adding alot more to the server load. Not very realistic but possible.

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] April 7 2007 1:58 PM EDT

I agree with SL. Forging and Fighting are the only useful ways to burn BA, so 'loaning' is great, but not a real focus of the game IMO. Make 'Forging' clans mean something, or just revamp all clans to be less stupid, please!

BootyGod April 7 2007 2:21 PM EDT

Make them better.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 7 2007 2:51 PM EDT

You say that loaning isn't a real focus of the game but as we have heard from Jon himself in the past, he does not find forging a 'real focus' either.
So if he is going to change econ clans at all to benefit either of these 'side jobs', he may as well make it worthwhile to both parties before doing anything at all.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 7 2007 3:03 PM EDT

Forging is more of a focus than loaning....

QBOddBird April 7 2007 3:32 PM EDT

Forging is actually coded into the game; loaning $$ is a player-run thing.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 7 2007 10:01 PM EDT

What do you get when you loan out money? Nothing but interest and the loaned amount back. You don't use BA, you can't get a bonus on top of it.

What do you get when you Forge? You make revinue while using BA.

First off the Econ clans can't do anything with their rankings besides make the user/clan page look pretty... Loaners and/or Forgers only get discounts from transferring money... Forgers also get a discount to forge costs, which is why econ clans make more sense for Forgers to be in.

Why go on and on about Loaners not getting anything from an econ clan when they don't get anything more or less than they will from what Leon proposes in the first place... Why change things for loaners when they are a minority in the first place. Forgers are a very supple and important part of this CB economy. Without them everyone would have to spend much more money upgrading their equipment.

Now from what I gather from what Leon Suggests... Is that the rankings for econ clans actually be put to use... maybe a slight change is in order to keep the econ rankings constant and kept from being eskewed to easily, but with that in place then the Loaners would have nothing to lose or gain from the change... May not look to good to them but forgers are a staple part of this economy and gives everyone a chance to do something other than fight. Not everyone has enough money to loan out even.

So why would making a change like Leon suggests impact Loaners as much as Forgers. Show me your logic or what you are thinking about this... Help me to understand... Why would this change not be fair to Loaners?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 7 2007 10:09 PM EDT

Actually let me back this up a moment... what I really want to know is Nightstrike's opinion on this matter. He is the biggest loan shark out there and he never uses an econ clan. He uses an agent to do his work for him, but low and behold... He still transfers money without useing an Econ clan. So obviously the Econ clan for a Loaner must not be a big enough deal... Please fill me in here let me know what your opinions are.

Ohh and on another note... NS rarely uses forgers unless he has items he doesn't really need for a long time... Wouldn't it be nice to have items forged alot faster?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 7 2007 10:13 PM EDT

My point was that they shouldn't be called economic clans if you're going to only benefit forgers/make their transactions worthwhile.
I suggested that there could be a system to count the interest only from loans in order to accomodate their use if you want a change.
Both forgers and fighters can enter the service of loaning money, being an economic clan as a whole I feel that both parties should be rewarded even if it has to be a little biased towards forgers overall.
Overall, I am saying that the economics here come from commodity profits and service profits. If you want these changes then call them forging clans but I'd hate to see a further segregation of fighters and forgers.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 7 2007 10:18 PM EDT

But it is already biased towards forgers yet I havn't heard any complaints as of yet till this thread came out... Why now? What has changed?

Tyriel [123456789] April 7 2007 10:19 PM EDT

I say just improve them in a way that benefits everybody. Especially people that are only in an Econ clan because they can't be in a normal one, like me. :)

QBOddBird April 7 2007 10:25 PM EDT

The Economic clan has uses for loaners, but isn't directed towards them - remember, that's not a coded part of the game or anything, but simply a player-created service.

That also brings up the question: How do you propose the system keep track of interest when all the system sees is payments going back and forth, since it is a player-run service held mainly via CM and Forums threads?

Either way, it isn't so much as anything necessary as something desirable: that is, forging becoming a competitive section amongst forgers within clans; however, at the same time, part of the reason I enjoy forging is that I am not being pressured to do better than anyone else, but simply to go at my own pace. Then again, that's just me personally. It'd certainly offer forgers a good reason to burn BA whilst forging, however, if the reward for being one of the top forging clans was enough to cover simply the x-fer fees of forging: this way, it would be neither profitable nor a loss for a forger to burn his BA while forging, therefore giving them the option to do so (in order to fulfill a deadline more quickly).

And after all, both forgers and those having their items forged would prefer the result of a more quickly forged item. Profits are seen more quickly by the forger and the item is returned more quickly to those requesting the forge job.

I'm going a bit off-topic now, though, so I'll hush. ^_^

Xenko April 7 2007 11:31 PM EDT

I think economic clans should get a bonus just like standard clans. It gives a reason to try and be a top economic clan, where as currently there is no benefit to being 1st place of 500th place.

One solution would be, similar to how standard clans get a maximum of 15% XP bonus, economic clans should get a maximum of 15% off forge fees (hence the first place clan would pay no forge fees).

Another possible alternative would be to give XP as a reward for forging if you are in the top economic clans, based on some fraction of the NW you have forged: e.g., for every $100 NW forged, you earn 15 XP in 1st place, 14 XP in 2nd place, etc. (tattoos would not gain any XP since they aren't used in forging)

Either of these alternatives would give a reason for trying to be the 1st place economic clan, as well as to help make forging and fighting more equal in terms of rewards earned.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 8 2007 5:52 PM EDT

Other thoughts, feelings, suggestions?

DiabloSpawn April 8 2007 8:55 PM EDT

How about a hybrid clan? Part time forgers anonymous lol

Talion April 9 2007 11:26 AM EDT

I like the forging fee bonus proposed by Kultur.

I wouldn't go as far as giving XP for forging, but waving forging fees for the top forging clan makes sense.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 10 2007 12:34 AM EDT

<NightStrike> "I think I was going to reply something to the effect of 'as a loanshark myself, I think people that do loans do so beacuse they want to fight and make money, and are thus in a fighting clan... an econ clan is of little use to a loanshark' "
"in other words, make econ clans be forging clans"
" I'm all for it"
"if you're loaning money and in an econ clan, you aren't much of an econimist"
"the beauty of loaning money is that you can do it while you fight... same with people who buy/sell auctions and make use of rentals"
"the bottom line is that clans should be BA-based... fighting takes BA nad has a clan, forging takes BA and has a clan"
"done deal"

From the horses mouth... about what i had figured he would say.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 10 2007 1:12 AM EDT

I personally like all my ideas in these three threads: 1. 2. 3.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 10 2007 7:45 PM EDT

So, what's stopping this from happening?

AdminNightStrike April 10 2007 8:19 PM EDT

DiabloSpawn April 11 2007 12:32 PM EDT

Let's face it...its called Carnage Blender for a reason. The game was developed for fighting and gaining XP and money from fighting.

Forging was initially only an alternative for fighters to save a couple of bucks. To make economic clans a viable alternative, its clear that mechanics of the game need to be adjusted. It would be most logical to have purely economic characters, which you could have in addition to your fighting characters, which would gain XP as well as money from forging. The XP gained would have to be less than for fighting, to reduce exploitation ie. forging with econ character for fighting character's items while raising forging character's levels - this actually adds another dimension to the game :).

Also, there should be another 'wacky' time for forgers...whats the point in having an XP wacky time when forgers see no benefit.

Furthermore, I don't agree with character transfers, as imo they are the easy way out for alot of forgers. This is a bit unfair since I put so much time and effort into a 300k MPR char but then they sell for about 1 mill. Unfortunately, character transfers remain the only way for a forger to progress in this game.

Here's to CB 2.2. Economy Blender (money, both real and ascii, seems to be central to the game nowadays)

Xenko April 11 2007 12:47 PM EDT

You could always introduce a completely separate "FXP" (forging XP) that will give you "FPR" (forging PR), that directly translates into a character's ability to forge... regardless of PR.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 11 2007 12:54 PM EDT

i really don't see how my ideas in those threads couldn't somehow be implemented.

DiabloSpawn April 11 2007 12:56 PM EDT

It's all up to Jon. Maybe we're in for a surprise next changemonth :) I'm not into the economic side of the game (well besides needing money for weaps and upgrades) but I would be happy to see another (real) dimension to the game. While we're at it, Jon, why not introduce a CB 'stock market' using key players as 'shares'. Share prices could be dictated by rankings, weapon strengths etc etc. THAT would be awesome.

DiabloSpawn April 11 2007 1:02 PM EDT

i meant key indicators, not players woops ;) Indicators would include overall scores, new items, basically anything subject to change and difficult for individuals to manipulate. It could be based on something like Lamuness' LER

Xenko April 11 2007 3:46 PM EDT

"i really don't see how my ideas in those threads couldn't somehow be implemented."

I was too lazy to go through those threads and find your ideas. I think it would be easier if you just summarized them for us :D

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 11 2007 5:47 PM EDT

(Whacky forge times, increasing forge RPM per cycle for 6 hours, but nothing for the other 6 hour time period)

"Like MrC said, forgers dont make as much money as fighters do anyway, so there really does not need to be a downside to even it out.

But if you absolutely need to implement one, make it so permanent forge fees get raised to 17.5% instead of 15%. And that you have to be a part of an eco clan in order to get the wacky forge times. And the regular +60%, but to the forge RPM % increase."

"just have rapid RPM gains time for one six hour period (100% increase), and slow RPM gains for another six hour time period (50% decrease) or something similar. Dont do anything with money, cuz yes, that would be very easy to just goto ~99% and wait till cheap forge times. I also liked the exp times for forgers idea."

THE MAIN IDEA I LIKED: (Giving permanent exp gains per cycle)

"ok, i get the point that there has to be a rise and fall at one time for each whacky time, So what about this idea? Make a change that grants forgers a certain amount of exp per minion based on a percent of NW increase throughout the RPM (Ex. per cycle).

Time One -
Raise the RPM Gains 100% and lower the exp gains 50%

Time Two -
Raise the Exp gains 100% and lower the RPM gains 50% "

"ok, you would choose the RPM over exp during whacky times, but dont most fighters choose exp times as opposed to money times? Same type of thing going on, see?"

(VelvetPickle was talking about a forging tattoo here, which you could still forge without the tattoo, it would just be a slower process for you. Same with a lower level forging tattoo.)

"forging tattoo would obviously be level'ed through forging, lol. And make it so it only works "better" the higher your MPR. And VP, why would a fighter want to try and keep up with forgers by forging themselves? They fight, they dont forge, lol. Plus, do forgers buy a ToJ to keep up with fighters? Nah, its useless!"

I got 80% of those from the thread "2". So if anything just read #2 in my previous post.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] April 11 2007 9:39 PM EDT

Just a rhetorical question i thought of while reading the above posts.

Why is Forging dependent on fighting?

Now i know the obvious answer is MPR but i don't understand why it has to be that way... FPR would be interesting

But, lets not lose focus of the original idea proposed. I'm not asking for a rewards system like Standard Clans. I would just like to see Econ Clans more about forgers and NW added per clan. In hopes of this adding a more competitive edge in both the Econ clan and forger realm.

AdminNightStrike April 11 2007 10:47 PM EDT

You could make forging be user based instead of character based. Maybe add up all the MPR of all of your characters or something to determine your rate. Maybe even have a separate forging BA pool.

Talion April 12 2007 11:29 AM EDT

Those are good ideas. How about a forging level directly proportional to a character's MPR.

In other words, characters in economical/forging clans would have a "Forging Level" related to their MPR.

Here is an example to illustrate...

At 100K MPR, a character could have a minimum forging level of 100K (MPR) that would cap at 110K (MPR + 10%). At the minimum forging level, the forging bonus is 0% and at the max level, the forging bonus could be 10%.

If the character spends BA fighting, the forging bonus is adjusted by comparing the current forging level to the new MPR.

As the character forges, the forging level could be increased by a fixed constant per BA spent. This would allow smaller MPR characters could reach their maximum forging level faster.

I took the liberty of making a little graphic to show what I mean:

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 12 2007 12:03 PM EDT

another idea from one of those previous threads:

"i still like my idea that i suggested a while ago about when making a new char, choose between a forger and a fighter.

Both gain exp while doing what they do, but can only do what they assigned themselves to do from the get go. And for another even more extreme idea, make it so only forgers could raise items up, and get rid of the blacksmith."

AdminNightStrike April 12 2007 12:18 PM EDT

If there was no blacksmith, that would certainly put the brakes on people making massively uber-ified weaponry.
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