Striving for the "top". (in General)
April 17 2007 10:48 AM EDT
In one month (maybe even sooner), Battle Royale will be comprised of four characters, all of which are beatable by only one team. I would say half of the clan will not even be beatable by Freed (Mikel's archer team will be incredible after one more month of NCB and then buying minions, and Koy is still supreme).
Battle Royale will have almost no one to take clan points away, and will be able to beat anyone they wish (except Freed for a couple of them). God bless Freed for building a billion-dollar team that can at least try to throw a wrench in there... I don't know what else could, or when such a thing will be possible in the future.
The best part is that since they will only have four members, their total PR is not THAT huge compared to anyone else. They are currently pulling a score: Score / raw score: 19,153 / 18,067 -- still actually getting 6% _bonus_ on their raw score! Once Mikel gets that much huger, I am betting they will be right at score and raw score being even.
So, I'll ask again -- are we having fun? No, BR, you need not respond -- I'm sure it's all pretty sweet from your perspective. *smile* Over time, I have come to agree more and more with taking it easy in the game, enjoying it instead of striving for the "top spot"... Problem is, the top spot will soon be the Top Five spots. Additionally, four of those five won't fight each other (again, HOORAY FOR CLANS!), so we will see some severe stagnation up there until a big NCB or NUB gets up there to mix it up. I have gone as far as I can with magic (it does nothing against the ToEs on Oxcha (ToE/AC/HP/PL/TSA), edyit (ToE/AC/AMF), and Koy (ToE/HP/AC)), so hopefully the NCB/NUB will be a big tank or something -- I'm not sure what else can get in there and dent those strategies (I've already complained about the ToE, but it doesn't seem to be much of a concern for most folks...).
Sorry, I digress -- my point is that, more and more, saying "Don't worry about reaching the top!" involves a bigger and bigger "top". Don't worry about even being in the Top Five. Don't worry about trying to compete with NW. Don't worry about trying to be in the number one clan. The top gets more encompassing and more stagnant every day. Pretty soon the only thing to tell a newbie to strive for will be to reach 6/10 BA accrual rate. Hey, that means something, right? Right?!
Check out the Top Five in a month, and check out the top clan Then tell me what you think. And god-speed, Freed. Do what you can.
Should the clan been broken up when dawg got banned?
April 17 2007 10:55 AM EDT
I don't think DAWG being banned should have affected the clan -- DAWG was acting on his own, so no negative light on Battle Royale there.
I don't really have any ideas on what to do. I don't recall the top spots and top clan being locked up this tight before, though Hellfire was pretty tough back on CB1 (not sure what clans were like on CB1 after CB2 started...)
April 17 2007 10:58 AM EDT
The top clan has got there thru a combination of persistence, smart strategy and wealth. They shouldn't be grudged their position (I'm not suggesting you are Sut) and certainly deserve to be there imo.
That said, I do know what you mean. Trying to replace them will be next to impossible, but whatd'ya do...?
Should success be penalised? That doesn't sit well with me.
April 17 2007 11:00 AM EDT
You know what I haven't heard in a really long time? It's been over a couple years for sure. That magical "R" word? Anyone? RESCALE!!!!! Just kiddin'. :O)
I would imagine that like most things, when something gets locked up, there will be a change that addresses things. Jon already expressed interest in the alternate ways of handling both PR and clan points, so perhaps that will change something.
i agree with NS, the ones who made this situation are the ones who will prob be the most mad and will suffer the most when jon makes a change to prevent such activity, but i do give it to them for making it to the top and they deserve to be there.
April 17 2007 11:19 AM EDT
Just wait until I hire my next minion and buy your VB :)
April 17 2007 11:21 AM EDT
Indeed, the top teams are amazing, and they way they all got there is actually very diverse and wonderful!
My OP is more concerned with stagnation than begrudging anyone anything. The top teams have big MPR, for one thing -- I would be the last to begrudge that! I think MPR is wonderful, and shows longevity (or a hard-fought NCB in Mikel's case...)
No, it is more the stagnation... In all of BR, there is not any magic save for Oxcha's rather effective Magic Missile. I like magic and think it is fun. I would like it to at least have some sort of place at the top. This stagnation could also be called net worth stagnation. Since magic can't compete, net worth becomes the only game left in town.
The second stagnation is the score lock-in. Clans don't fight each other, so if one clan locks the top spot, they also lock their portion of the score ladder. NS is probably right, if lock-in becomes too pronounced, perhaps changes will ensue.
The third stagnation (this one is hard for me to pin down) is tattoo stagnation. Three out of four BR players use ToE. There's no denying it is a great tattoo and a great strat! I just find it mind-numbingly dull. I doubt Mikel would every use a ToE with his archer status, however.
I think the biggest problem with trying to crack the top is the kind of impact USD has on the game. I would consider myself an active player, getting on average 4-5 sets of BA in a day. Now I don't buy any anymore, so I make about 1.4 mil CB/week.
From my point of view down here the top 10 is unreachable. It would take me an entire year from this date to get the cash to have a good VB and some nice equipment in order to compete. However that is only considering the top doesn't grow in a year from now :D Sure, right?
Hey, I am not complaining, but Sut, you should appreciate the top 10 a little bit more. I mean, you still sunk, what, ~100 mil into hiring those extra minions? I don't ever expect to have that kind of cash here on CB.
Some days it gets frustrating down here, but all in all CB is still a fun experience for me, even though I am in the same boat as you I suppose. You will never crack the top 5 and I will never crack the top 10.
This is the fault of USD, plain and simple. btw...how much USD did it cost to get the amount of CB for hiring your minions?
April 17 2007 11:48 AM EDT
PM, as with most "solutions" posed by folks, how would a VB help a mage team?
It seems people are fond of talking about all the offense ways to beat huge teams, but all of those ways involve TANK tactics:
- massive archery damage
I have the greatest mage offense in the game. Period. The most concentrated magical blows that are possible, and I have two of them. They are useless against you, edyit, and Oxcha. Against Mikel, it is ranged vs. ranged, and there is no way I am going to beat him once he gets a bit bigger (all that pth on a ToA tank). That's also because of the other side of the coin -- mage reduction items: MgS, EH, AMF.
So, in response to "VB anyone?" I can give a resounding "NO!", because it is really "anyone but a mage".
Regarding your initial post and my reply, a thought occurred to me -- clan restrictions (ie, PR, score, etc) were formulated to prevent this exact situation -- having all of the top players in the same clan. Is that a true statement? I seem to recall it either from the admin clan page, the old Help, or maybe a forum post. If it *is* a true statement, then the situation will most definitely be changed in the coming change month, as the design is supposed to be to prevent the score lock-up.
April 17 2007 11:54 AM EDT
NS, my thoughts exactly, until I saw BR's score/raw score ratio.
When a group is indestructible, they can have fewer members, meaning they can still have a relatively low combined PR. But even with all of them being at the lowest accrual rate in the game, they can still rack up massive points due to very few points being taken away.
I agree with you, I assume something will be done to address...
NUB/NCB allows people to get round that restriction somewhat now.
April 17 2007 12:07 PM EDT
Get around which restriction, Rubberduck? Simply being able to be competitive, you mean?
The PR restrictions on clan membership.
April 17 2007 12:24 PM EDT
I was thinking about this just yesterday Sut; I was imagining a situation where your clan mates and you take up the top five places. You would never know how you would compete against the other 'top' players, and if one of your team mates was almost certain to be number one all the time you may never get to challenge them for their position. That would become pretty boring I would think.
Still, I'm having fun where I am thank you very much. ;)
April 17 2007 12:28 PM EDT
To beat the stagnation, Jon could maybe create a few 'bots' - top 'boss' characters??
Here's a wonderfully radical and crazy idea --
Every Sunday, or perhaps the first Sunday of every month, totally randomize all clan memberships. Everyone will sign up to be in fighting clans in general as opposed to a specific clan. Then, apply some algorithm, either as simple as random() or something more complex that takes into account activity in the past time period, current Score/PR/MPR, etc. Create a clan distribution for the next time period and let everyone enjoy their new teammates. Talk about stirring the pot around here!
That's *almost* like tournaments... The tournament becomes the clan. Kinda. It's an idea, at least. I think it might possibly be fun.
while it may be boring to be in that situation on a fun scale. it also must be pretty exciting to be getting the top clan bonus continually with no chance of losing it for long.
i guess it depends on what floats your boat, playing the game for fun or playing it to get and stay on top. i think for these games to do well in the long run though, there at least needs to be a chance to get to the top and stagnation is the biggest enemy of the game.
one solution would be to limit the number of people in the top 6/10 ba refresh category allowed in any clan.
April 17 2007 12:35 PM EDT
Great idea, but would it be optional? I guess it couldn't be, then it wouldn't help.
But I don't want to be in a clan with anyone else! WAH! Maybe I would be with this type of mixup... *smile*
Rubberduck, yeah, snagging a small but fast-growing charatcer can build some pretty big clans. And it apparently takes a LOT of PR to start cutting into raw score.
dude -- You could make clans be limited to 4 people, much like characters are limited at 4 minions. Each person much be in a separate refresh category -- 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. Ok, I guess that's 5... the 10/10 guy we'll call the Tattoo (or, I guess Familiar is more appropriate).
April 17 2007 1:02 PM EDT
If we're talking clans only then I can vouch for the fact that since I stopped using Lorenzo I haven't been buying BA and I've not been focusing on clan points too much other than to keep out of Negatives. As a result I've easily dropped 20k clan points a week in comparison to what was my usual. If you were to put that back into the clan then we would be very competitive against BR.
What I'm saying is that you don't need the "top chars" in a clan to be the "top clan". A couple of NCB or NUB users with a decent refresh rate and a commitment to play and you would get top clan spot. Of course, it would be difficult to keep - but isn't that the idea. What we need is fresh blood, more people starting NCB, more collusion between clans and a determined effort to succeed as a team.
I've never seen much clan strategy discussions on the boards...
You don't need to be able to beat BR to be able to "beat" BR.
April 17 2007 1:33 PM EDT
Collusion between clans is useless when a clan's members are unbeatable, G_Beee. What sort of collusion could two clans use to "beat" another clan? Let one beat the other up for better rewards? There is no such thing as clan warfare when one cannot push defeat upon an enemy clan.
I agree that it is possible to score more points than BR. But for long term top-dog clan status, the way to do it is to make sure you have no negatives.
Not to mention, there is nothing stopping BR from adding another new team (or even two). Their score/raw score ratio tells me they would have room to add someone very small. Then they can even benefit from having a 10/10 person.
You could also make it so that when you hit 6/10, you get bumped from your clan.. Maybe have it so that either 6/10 people can't join clans at all, or that they have to rejoin a clan (which means you need to find a clan small enough that you can fit in it PR-wise)
April 17 2007 3:05 PM EDT
When the party gets too boring, just turn the music up and dance. ;)
you've never seen me dance have you Johnny? We need OB if there's going to be dancing involved :-)
April 17 2007 3:45 PM EDT
It is a dance though isn't it; with 'cool' kids over there, the normal kids having a laugh and a good time in the middle, but secretly wanting to be 'cool', the nerds and brains over there looking nervous and/or goofy secretly wanting to be normal and then there's the freaks over near the door, so they can get outside for a smoke, furtively sipping from their flask of vodka they've brought - because somebody told them once that you can't smell vodka on the breath. Most of them have a smile on their face and don't even notice the cliques....
I'll leave you to work out which group I belonged to. Meanwhile we need somebody to bribe the dj to play something really good so we can all get up and dance, not just the OBs of this world. ;)
April 17 2007 3:53 PM EDT
Battle Royal didn't always have the top players in the game. They have however, always had the top single player and has also been the top clan spot for most of its existence. Over time, it began to grow into what it has become for one simple reason. Widest selection of candidates.
Since the beginning of my career here I have met hundreds of people who either post or chat about wanting to be in the top clan. About ninety percent of those people thought the way to do that was to simply get into the top existing clan. This gave Battle Royal the ability to hire and fire people at will and to finally select the would-be top players in the game. This is finally coming to pass.
I personally have a solution which I like very much. The solution is to allow clan members to fight with special Clan BA, which might be granted say once every ten minutes. The point of the extra BA isn't to grant extra cash or xp. Nothing says you need to earn anything from these fights other then clan points. The part that makes this balanced is that before a clan fight, the server temporarily rescales your stats so that either your NW and MPR match the NW and MPR of the opponent or somehow your PR matches the PR of the opposing team.
Aside from fixing the stagnation of the top clan being unbeatable, we finally also get to see if people have a strategy that would do well if they ever made it to the top. It also means that people with different BA rates aren't hampered in their ability to compete in some way. The rest of clans can work the same. Granting a clan bonus to the top clans for regular fights.
Also, there would be no reason for the top players to not fight for the top spot once again.
If you have any responses to the idea presented, then please post about it in the new post I'm about to make for it. Otherwise, post here if you plan on staying on topic.
April 17 2007 7:48 PM EDT
A couple of points if you please.
The VB comment was about how Jon nerfed that weapon and it mainly effected Edyit and myself given we had the largest (by far) VB's.
Now to the meat of the post:
When I first started, I could not get into any clan worth a darn. Hellfire and Brimstone both laughed when I asked to join. So with Budice we started BR.
I have been lucky to find great players who think the clan mentality. That is clan players help each other. We lend items to each other for no costs/profit. But we also use a lot of BA. Even if we all were in the middle of the pack, our usage of BA would eventually bring up near the top.
Now there are a bunch of other players who have spent far more USD then I did. Most of my USD was spent on TAB, which is then sold off. But, yes, I have used a bit of USD with Koy. There are new players who spend a lot of USD. But they do not make it to the top. Why? Not enough BA usage. One should not moan about not being at or near the top unless you use your BA and buy all you can.
But look at the month clan point producers. BR is 2,3,6 and 8. So, we should be penalized for using as much BA as we can. And we are 6 BA regen rate.
All 4 of us in BR have weakness that can be exploited if looked for. Please do not moan about not being able to beat those in BR due to our setups. I know myself and Edyit went away from ED spells due to your massive DM. So all that xp you have in DM is basically worthless vs us. You can change it to another spell like AS if you want, that is your choice. You can also have a wall or mage wall to protect vs Oxcha. There are a few things you can do with your character to give those in BR problems. But please do not moan about not beating us, you certainly have choices, most involve unlearning and experimenting. I have unlearned and relearned more times than I can count and have lost hundreds of thousands of MPR due to it. You certainly can do the same. In fact, I was ahead of you in MPR, but unlearned my Haste since EC does far better.
Now, about clans:
Do you not think that a clan composed of the other top players not in BR would give BR a run? What if you and Freed and Jayuu (when he was playing) were all in a clan together?
So what is your solution? Rescale, to let new players get to the top? Make clans so only 1 person from a 6 BA rate can be in it? Nerf the TOE?
How about you join a real clan and give BR a shot instead of moaning we are unbeatable? You spent about 100M hiring new minions, you have the top MPR, I am sure with a few changes you can beat at least 2 of us in BR. Combined with Freed's massive elb, you 2 alone can do BR a world of damage.
You do have 1 very valid point. The 4 of us in BR will almost never fight each other. Even on Sundays we do not fight more then a couple of fights due to prior internal issue we as a clan had. But... I think everyone knows who can beat who in BR. So what does it matter if we did or did not fight each other. Our scores will matter but as others posted, scores are nothing (I disagree, but the majority typed). However, you want to apparently penalize BR for having 4 people who act like a clan, who are friends, and who use tons of available BA. Why???
Make the top 5 automatically become leaders of their own clan. Then, allow no more than 2 additional people in the top 15 join. =)
It may not happen but would make the clan battling more fun.
Wait let me get this right. Because we burn more BA than almost any other clan on CB we should be penalized, separated, forced to be in a random clan? As has been stated numerous times look at clan MVP's for 1 month. 1, 2, 4, and 6 are BR members. That is a lot BA burned. And most of us are at 6 BA per regen as well, with Mikel being on the verge of it. So because we actually fight a lot that's a bad thing to the rest of you. Buy all your BA every day like we do. Burn as many sets of "free" BA as you can a day as we do. Give us a run for first. Don't sit there and cry "we can't beat them" when you don't fight nearly as much as we do. That is why we are in first.
The problem that Sut brings up here is pretty much the reason why the clan system is broken, unless you are at the top, or you are at the very bottom, and even then it isn't terribly great.
And now I say it again, for the 5th or 6th time: Clan Points need a tweak.
April 17 2007 9:38 PM EDT
PM, seriously, I think that with the top 4 or top 5 players in one clan, if you wanted to be unbeatable (which I'm sure you do) you can be.
For a start, nobody can take CP from you. Double tapping just ensures you take 2 steps back and 3 forward. Net win.
Then on top of that, if any clan uses all their BA (and they may get more) to overtake you for a moment then you guys being ultimate players put your heads together and farm 10000 CP off that clan and they're no longer an issue.
The rest of the clans are all stealing CP from each other, but you float alone at the top trawling CP from wherever you like.
Or am I terribly mistaken ?
April 17 2007 9:57 PM EDT
I'm not entirely sure why you have singled me out, as if I have something personal against BR, against you, or against any BR member. As I already stated above, I have great respect and am not detracting from the longevity and BA usage of your clan. You guys are to be lauded!
My topic reduces to three points, all of which I think are valid from a community standpoint (and none of which are particularly personal or fanatical from my perspective):
_Magic_: I want magic to be a viable vehicle in this game. As I have said before, I have two of the biggest MMs in the game, and they are useless against the various damage reducers. Edyit utilizes ToE and AMF. Mikel could probably get by with a MgS _only_ (he was beating me Saturday, 60% my MPR, single minion, and 1 month of NCB left). Oxcha utilizes everything: ToE, AC, TSA, and a tad bit of AMF. As a point of clarification, I have NEVER "moaned" about not being able to beat you, have I? Even once? I have not "moaned" about edyit either (you can ask him, I asked what he had changed and congratulated him on its effectiveness). Oxcha is the only one I have ever singled out, because Oxcha has a smaller PR than I do, and my DM _is_ useful against that massive AS. So, please don't slightly skew my tangent so that it wheels off into space. I'm not "moaning". I want magic to be viable, and it is not viable in what is soon to be the Top Six (me being the sixth).
_Clan Configuration_: All I am asking for there is that clans be tweaked. I have a hard time believing that four 6/10 teams, unbeatable by all but a very few (or one!), still generate a score/raw score ratio north of 1.00. That doesn't seem right in my pathetic "moaning" mind. It never seemed acceptable in CB1, and clans were changed (they didn't always have score/raw, as you might recall -- sorry, my "moaning" probably got that changed too). I couldn't possibly care less about the history of how BR was born and blah blah blah -- I think clans are stupid (as you experienced when trying to join one), and have done since Day One. I'm glad you found a powerful niche and that you guys all get along. I choose to try to get along with everyone (not saying you don't, you have always ben more than helpful to me).
_Stagnation_: It isn't just about knowing who can beat whom. It's about having to TRY to beat someone. Every day. You yourself have stated how much you enjoy a challenge, trying to overcome adversity. You have very much enjoyed my paltry attempt to create a decent character (and knew right from the get-go that ToE was probably the only way I could match you). Imagine how much you would enjoy having to try to beat Mikel's monster up-and-coming archer? So what if you guys play on Sunday and find out Mikel can beat you all? I want YOU to try to beat HIM. If you aren't trying, you're stagnant. Are you going to strive to stop imbalances, add to the game, etc. if you and your cozy crew is firmly ensconced in the Top Five, unable to be shifted? Why would you? Change comes from discontent and dissent.
Where will your discontent come from?
I also find it interesting that you made your post directed at me, and mentioned USD. Do you see my OP talking about USD? No, I didn't mention it once. Was that part for me? I DO have issues with net worth, and how a mage cannot leverage it like a tank (without becoming a tank - that goes back to my first point), but that goes for any net worth. Net worth gets a lot of breaks, and a lot of ways to defeat magic (MgS being a big one -- 40% reduction for a very modest fee). The old argument used to go toward DBs -- I can tell you, big DBs aren't going to do squat that a big Evasion and EBs can't already do. Edyit can barely hit me 5% of the time (that's basically as low as it goes) in melee. Evasion totally rocks. But what else can a mage leverage? Then, even if he/she does get something going, a build that works, seekers can nuke it in a second (and archers become the slam-dunk strategy) You would agree 100% about the seekers, I just like to go a little further with it.
I have great respect for you, PM. If you don't know that, they you're just reading what you want to read and disregarding the rest. *shrug* Not a lot I can do about that. But I assure you that my "moaning" has every intent of balancing the game and trying to make it fun for everyone. Hell, I am trying to make CLANS more fun, and I absolutely DESPISE the things and will never join one.
Imagine what would happen if I went on the warpath about something I actually cared about? *smile*
April 17 2007 10:38 PM EDT
Instead of moaning that BR is unbeatable and the TOE is overpowered, use your vast ability in the games mechanics to change Hubbell to beat 1 or 2 or even 3 of us.
I was having incredible trouble with you until I unlearned my Haste and changed to EC. Perhaps it is time for Hubbell to go through some changes. Your DM is occupying a lot of MPR doing virtually nothing to Mikel, myself or Edyit. So basically your coming to the battle with far less effective MPR then us.
Like I said, why do you and Freed not band together and figure a way to beat BR? Get a couple more high MPR characters and share equipment like Br does. WIth Freeds (End of Days) massive MPR and excess items, perhaps you can do BR a world of damage.
Do you think LD spends USD on the game? Certainly not, except perhaps for supporter items.
But, in BR we give our excess items to our clanmates to help them get tougher. Why do other clans not do this? That should not be my problem, but it seems people try to make it so.
Hidden Agenda has over 600 million more NW then all of BR. So, why is BR able to stay unbeatable? Cannot be just NW can it? It is good strategy and 4 outstanding players working as a TEAM. And you want to figure a way to penalize us for doing what a clan is supposed to do.
When I was a mage with Koy, I beat TOE tanks and other TOE mages quite easily. With less NW then Oxcha has currently, since I did not have a nice melee weapon on my mini-tank/wall. The only reason I stopped being a mage is freaking seekers. So it certainly can be done.
Just use your brain to change Hubbell to give BR a challenge.
April 17 2007 10:56 PM EDT
"But, in BR we give our excess items to our clanmates to help them get tougher. Why do other clans not do this? "
Us mere mortals don't have excess rares.
April 17 2007 11:00 PM EDT
Clarification first, since you seem intent on mis-representing me:
-- I know LittleDevil hasn't used USD. I don't believe I have ever said he did, and again, I'm a little bit baffled by your mentioning of USD -- I have yet to talk about USD on this thread!
-- I don't have vast ability in the game, and have never said I did. I've found that other people are fond of saying I have "vast abilities" in order to say I should stop complaining and "step up". But since I have never said (or even thought) I have vast abilities, your point is lost on me. I click a lot and stick around -- that's the extent of my "vast ability", and always has been.
-- I never said the word "penalize", and I have not said I agree with any single idea put forth here. In FACT, I have said I don't have any ideas. I don't want BR to face some sort of punitive, contrived ramification. I have never said as such, either.
PM, you're (note that spelling, BTW) not addressing any of my points. You have told me on several occasions that magic didn't work, even in your capable hands. So you switched to damage reduction and a tank/wall setup. That's cool. But don't come down on me because I still want magic to be a viable choice in the game. Tell me, Original Ranger -- tell me what more I can do with magic right now to best your elite squad?
So that covers magic. My other points talk about clan dynamics and score ladder stagnation -- you didn't address those either. Your argument boils down to: "can't beat 'em, join 'em". You are basically asking me to build a second indestructible clan, at least to everyone else. You are asking to make the "top" EVEN BIGGER! Yeah, let's make TWO CLANS that dominate first and second and are untouchable by all the rest. Hey, then we can make a non-aggression pact! Huzzah! I've seen it happen before, PM, I truly have.
In my eyes you aren't helping the situation, you are wanting to make it more like it already is. Join with Freed? And we'll do what? Get ToEs? Become archers? Do you really not _get it_? I want to be a mage, and I want it to be _viable_. Can you address that?
April 17 2007 11:40 PM EDT
First of all - all the guys in BR are great players. They also spend a lot of time in the game - that is the key. I am not a great strategist (I'm OK) but I cannot spend as much time as the top BA burners due to work commitments - the upside of that is that I do have some dollars to spend which as everyone knows I do.
As far as anyone beating BR is concerned I dont know if it will ever be a mage unless some minor improvements are made. One way to make clan battles more interesting would be a suggestion someone made where the clans were limited to 1 player in each BA refresh category (with no limit on the lowest categories).
However, I have never strived to be no.1 (no honestly) I just wanna be up there (some people say I am up there but I am not sure what they mean :) )
I must go now as Sut and I have gotta have a meeting :)
April 18 2007 12:04 AM EDT
Hey Freed, I have an idea...let's make a clan...but an Econ clan! *smile* We'll freely devote all our forging to someone and make them a force to be reckoned with! OK, maybe that would be boring...
April 18 2007 12:08 AM EDT
I don't think forging is boring. Wish I had more time for it.
April 18 2007 12:32 AM EDT
actually - not such a bad idea - hmmm :)
I've got some HG's that could use another point or two......
I'd help forge equipment up as high as possible. I have a lot of patience. :)
April 18 2007 6:07 AM EDT
If you cannot see me addressing the points of your initial post, then I freaking give up.
You state you went as far as you could with magic and I say--WRONG.
You refuse to adapt. There are other things you can do vs myself or edyit since we do not use DM. Yet again, you have excessive DM which is useless vs most of BR. Your point in the initial post, at least as I see it, is that BR is unbeatable.
That is very wrong. But you and Freed seem on making jokes instead of possibly teaming up vs BR. Well do not punish BR for playing as a team. Seems to me that is what your trying to do.
"You state you went as far as you could with magic and I say--WRONG"
PM, would you mind expanding upon this a little?
Sute has the largest (the two largest?) Magical attacks in the game.
There's nothing else to boost these, so droping XP from DM is redundant. Where else will it go? There's no mgical damage boosting ED.
If the Magical damage Sutekh can deal at the moment isn't enough to kill the teams he faces, what other options are left?
Try to outlast opponents?
April 18 2007 10:40 AM EDT
GL, PM thinks I should use ToE, even though he himself used a large MM and ToE for a while and STOPPED because he got owned by seekers. So yes, PM, I am with GL -- please elaborate on what I should do? My guess is that he'll say he already told me, and what he told me was to use a ToE and spend money on a wall -- neither of which worked for him when he tried magic. Then he'll say the difference is that I have a huge Evasion, even though I already know two archer teams that can beat me (or will soon), despite my massive Evasion. But PM knows best. Yes sir, yes he does. PM also has a hard time understanding that I have limited resources for trying new things, learning/unlearning, etc. Heck just saving enough money to ink a tattoo to something different (then back) take a couple weeks of saving cash. But again, hey, PM knows best, and I need to stop moaning (don't worry, I am fixin' to -- keep reading).
You know, PM, you're simply ridiculous with these rebuttals. You are saying things I never said, and trying to contrive intent in me where there is none. I don't care about beating you, and haven't cared for MONTHS.
Did you hear that? Can you shut up about it now? I don't care that I can't beat you, don't care that I can't beat edyit, don't care that I can't beat End of Days, and no longer care that I can't beat Oxcha. And when Mikel starts owning me, can you guess what I'll feel? That's right: I won't care about that either.
Yes, I think the ToE is a bit overpowered, and exceedingly dull. Is that OK? Can I have an opinion? The reason I went with DM is because there is something else I find exceedingly dull: RoS and DEs. So I attacked that first (and I have told you that about a hundred times now). I am HAPPY with my build. It beats who I want to beat. I don't care about beating who YOU want me to beat. Your wants and needs mean nothing to me, PM.
And you still haven't told me how magic would work. If you had a way to make magic work, why wouldn't you yourself be using it? You are very good at paring down net worth and PR and making a team as lean and mean as possible -- so why not use magic?
So, unless you can't read, you now know that I don't care about beating you or BR. (Did I mention not caring? Should I send you a CM and email as well, just to make sure?) That means none of my OP is about "moaning" or wanting things to shift in my favor.
In fact, I'll make that very clear...that I could not possibly care less about beating you. Go check the forging threads -- you'll see what I mean.
Lies, all lies. He cares. How could he not? Everybody does. Everybody who can discern "important" from "not important", anyway. It's self-evident!
April 18 2007 10:47 AM EDT
Oh no, don't bring back Jupiter Mining Incorporated. Nooooo!!
April 18 2007 1:56 PM EDT
The reason I do not use magic is simple, seekers.
I do have have enough xp on my mage, as you do, to have HP, evasion and a large MM.
Yet again, and I have said it again and again, you have too much xp tied up in DM which is useless vs a large number of teams at the top.
Your ranting above does read that you are upset BR is "invulnerable", please do not deny it.
Have you even read what you typed in your first post of this rant? Have you?
It is entirely about how BR cannot be beat and goes into details of how Oxcha, Edyit and I cannot be beat by magic.
It also states how far you have gone with magic. Perhaps on your mage, yes, but what about your 3 other minions. We all know you spent over 100M NW on your 3 minions but now you have limited resources? Ok, if you do, it does not take money to unlearn and relearn as I have, as Edyit has and as Oxcha has.
I full well am not going to hand deliver a strategy to beat me or others in BR, but with your MPR you certainly can do something.
So, since you believe I am ridiculous in my retubbals, shall we dissect your first post???
"In one month (maybe even sooner), Battle Royale will be comprised of four characters, all of which are beatable by only one team. I would say half of the clan will not even be beatable by Freed (Mikel's archer team will be incredible after one more month of NCB and then buying minions, and Koy is still supreme). "
Hmm, where to start. You start ranting about how BR will be unbeatable. So I say bologna, poppycock. You can change things on your character as I have stated numerous times to perhaps beat some of us. But it seems you refuse to do so.
"Battle Royale will have almost no one to take clan points away, and will be able to beat anyone they wish (except Freed for a couple of them). God bless Freed for building a billion-dollar team that can at least try to throw a wrench in there... I don't know what else could, or when such a thing will be possible in the future. "
Again BR is unbeatable. A point now I will not disagree with, but with your MPR perhaps changing from a massive DM to something else may help, perhaps? Freed beats Oxcha and if he uses a TOA beats Edyit. So your statement there is wrong.
"The best part is that since they will only have four members, their total PR is not THAT huge compared to anyone else. They are currently pulling a score: Score / raw score: 19,153 / 18,067 -- still actually getting 6% _bonus_ on their raw score! Once Mikel gets that much huger, I am betting they will be right at score and raw score being even. "
So playing a lot, burning a lot of BA is to be punished. That is the only conclusion I can come to with that paragraph. We have 4 players who play a lot, have a great set of strategy, loan items and you want to penalize us. It is the only conclusion one can come to from that paragraph.
"So, I'll ask again -- are we having fun? No, BR, you need not respond -- I'm sure it's all pretty sweet from your perspective. *smile* Over time, I have come to agree more and more with taking it easy in the game, enjoying it instead of striving for the "top spot"... Problem is, the top spot will soon be the Top Five spots. Additionally, four of those five won't fight each other (again, HOORAY FOR CLANS!), so we will see some severe stagnation up there until a big NCB or NUB gets up there to mix it up. I have gone as far as I can with magic (it does nothing against the ToEs on Oxcha (ToE/AC/HP/PL/TSA), edyit (ToE/AC/AMF), and Koy (ToE/HP/AC)), so hopefully the NCB/NUB will be a big tank or something -- I'm not sure what else can get in there and dent those strategies (I've already complained about the ToE, but it doesn't seem to be much of a concern for most folks...). "
AH, not the real points of the post. Yes, there is a problem with clans in that clan members do not fight each other. Unless you want to break up the top clans and disperse its members, give another solution. Then you again state you have gone as far as possible with magic. Yet again, that is not true. Instead of making a wall or minitank or enchanter with AS, you went heavy DM. Fine, it helped quite a lot when I was using Haste. With my VB I did lose to you a few times. But, I adapted, changed my Haste to EC and viola, things are easier now for me. Edyit unlearned his Haste and AS and learned more AMF and a huge EC.
So why can you not try to change things on Hubbell? As I stated, even without going to a TOE, you can do a lot of things with your setup. Did you realize with the FF you really had me down to under 200k hp left in most battles? But you went with a SF.
"Sorry, I digress -- my point is that, more and more, saying "Don't worry about reaching the top!" involves a bigger and bigger "top". Don't worry about even being in the Top Five. Don't worry about trying to compete with NW. Don't worry about trying to be in the number one clan. The top gets more encompassing and more stagnant every day. Pretty soon the only thing to tell a newbie to strive for will be to reach 6/10 BA accrual rate. Hey, that means something, right? Right?! "
And here is the summary, give up before you start. As I typed in the past, perhaps if some of the other top people all joined in 1 clan and pooled their resources like BR does, BR would have a problem. But that is not happening.
But I did answer and respond to your rant in my past posts. But you refuse to read it right or refuse to read your own posts. Your posts read as a person who is upset he cannot beat other players in BR with the thought "I have the best and higher MM, and highest evasion so I should be able to win".
No thought as to your tattoo is 1M less than Oxchas or mine. Or the fact vs Edyit or I your DM is useless.
If you cannot understand what I am typing, so be it. I'm done with this thread. But stop you incessant whining about BR being unbeatable. You are starting to type like me. We cannot of course, have that.
We all can be beat. Just takes some thought on how to do it. I know your ecstatic with your build, just be prepared to lose to a few of us who adapted to your build and basically made ourself "immune" to a heavy DM team.
I told myself I wouldn't get involved in the argument, but here I am. This thread has mostly turned into useless banter.. but I am here to shed the light! I know sometimes my attitude isn't the best, but just stop, chill out, and look at what you are writing.
When I was forging and gathering equipment for my character, there were a number of people that helped me to the top: not to name any names, but BR was among them. I learned that no matter how BR plays the game, they still want to see it thrive. They want someone to give them a challenge, a run for their money.. but they would rather help you get there.
Sut, tonight I showed CB that BR can be beaten (if even only for a short time), even by someone with less MPR than 3/4 of BR. With the new changes, exp retraining is a viable option.. not one to be chosen lightly, but when you can't beat anyone in your fight list it's probably time for a change.
At first I thought you had the right idea Sut.. you spoke of change in the stagnation at the top. I was wrong. It seems to me that you really have an undieing hate of BR just because they can beat you. You refuse to take any of PM's advice, even obvious things like teaming up in a clan. You say you want change but you don't want to be the one to do it. You would rather cry to Jon about how he should change the game to suit your needs than actually do anything about it yourself. What iIF an econ clan teamed up with a standard clan? You won't know, will you?
So who else can show BR what they are made of? Who is not afraid to stand up to the behemoth? Freed isn't (although maybe he wouldn't notice even if he was), and he is all?
Koy! Don't play his game.. you tried to help him and he was too stubborn to move on. Let him babble on until his fingers get tired.. or let this thread die.
Forget BR, Forget Sutekh and PM. I don't think the point of this was about individuals.
The Magic Damage problems aside, the clan question in this thread is this.
Is it intended, and is it good practice, for there to be no competition between the top 5 charcaters in the game, as they're all in the same clan?
April 19 2007 4:07 AM EDT
Good point GL.
Stop flaming each other, it really isn't nice at all. :) I don't think Sutekh was trying to making BR out to be all that bad, yes I've read the posts, so don't argue with me. It's just within the top 5 its no action, if they're all in a clan they aren't going to attack each other (duh). Was it intended that there be no action there? That should be the question, not whether Sutekh hates BR or PM, so stop with the flaming, it's getting ridiculous talk about the matter at hand and the matter at hand isn't loathing for anyone its about the top 5.
April 19 2007 4:32 AM EDT
My opinion is that clan combat is integrated directly into regular combat much more then it should be. There should be a disconnect between the two.
April 19 2007 11:16 AM EDT
Vestax, that is what I said on the very first day clans were added to the game and Jonathan posted that bonuses from clans would be directly integrated with battles. My opinion has never changed.
That is why I dislike clans, have always disliked clans, and that is why I created this thread. ALL CLANS, not just BR! But apparently my undying hatred of BR (yet again, a quality attributed to me by someone else with zero proof whatsoever) has me blinded. DreadedTiger, you have absolutely no clue what I have tried, not tried, or am willing to try. No matter how often I explicitly point out that have graciously accepted defeat at the hands of BR (and have done for months), someone comes up and says I am speaking because I hate them. So prove it. Show me this undying hatred. Dispute the fact that I congratulated edyit when his new build beat me (called it boring, but still lauded it). Show me even a SINGLE spot where I was angry that I couldn't touch Koy. Or do you generally just go around saying nasty things about people without proof?
The best part is that I also get people then telling me to stop flaming. Apparently it is OK for others to come on a thread and tell blatant lies about me, but if I try to refute it (hell, if I just try to be honest and explain my sentiments), I'm fanning the flames, too. And folks wonder what is wrong with the community? Um. Duh. Slanderers and word-skewers will ruin almost any party, to be sure.
I have a really nasty, gnawing feeling that just heading over to the forge isn't going to be enough this time. :\
Oh, I'm also a narcissist, in case anyone forgot.
I'll also cut you with a rusty scisor.
April 19 2007 11:19 AM EDT
"I have gone as far as I can with magic (it does nothing against the ToEs on Oxcha (ToE/AC/HP/PL/TSA), edyit (ToE/AC/AMF), and Koy (ToE/HP/AC)),"
That upon other rants in your last post about the TOE show you are upset at not beating Koy and others in BR. At least that is how I and a few others that have CM'd and PM'd me read it.
Did you forget the entire TOE rant?
what is jon's intent for clans? that is what this discussion boils down to and something that only jon can answer. if he is fine with the status quo then we will have to be fine with it as well. it is neither clans nor individuals within clans that are the potential problem here but the game mechanics that allow it.
with that being said though, perhaps the point could've been brought up more diplomatically without mentioning names, it is natural for people to get defensive when they perceive an attack upon them.
April 19 2007 11:45 AM EDT
PM, a rant is like stress. The "rant" itself has no direction, even if I mention names. The names are only mentioned for example purposes, like if someone mentioned my name in regards to having a large Evasion -- I would not take that as a put-down of me, or of Evasion. However, if you want to take it personally, that is your business -- just don't put words in my mouth or attribute qualities to me that aren't there. dudemus said it perfectly: "perceive an attack..." I am not going to forego mentioning names for illustrative purposes just because someone else might perceive an attack. If we all did that, how could we even have a discussion? I am telling you there was no attack nor any intent of attack.
The thing you are calling a rant (I think), my ToE discussion ("Monday Musings...)", was a discussion about the ToE, various damage reducers in the game (some of them magic-specific), and my conclusion that with all of the magic-busting items out there (ultimately including seekers, the item that made you yourself give up on magic), I thought magic needed some help. That was my opinion, something to which I am 100% entitled. I did not disrespect anyone, I did not bend the truth, and I was not spreading any malicious intent.
In addition, if you further recall my ToE "rant", it was littered with complimentary lines such as the following:
"Oxcha is a perfect balance of damage reduction, PL, leeching, and HP regeneration that can handle just about any attack..."
"I don't have a problem with the ToE, per se, and I definitely have no problem with LittleDevil (I think the strategy is the greatest thing going). But I have an issue with the fact that such huge ToEs can leverage so many other facets of the game: PL, AC, TSA, AS..."
In fact, that whole thread was downright civil. Yet now you are calling it a "rant"? You didn't seem all that non-plussed on that thread, at least not that I can see upon re-reading...? Did I miss something?
*sigh* I'll say it all again: I have always thought LittleDevil's build is awesome, and have always showed him the utmost respect (LD, feel free to post any chatmails, etc. that would prove otherwise). I have always respected edyit and his various teams as well, whether it be Vlad or now edyit (edyit, feel free to post any chatmails, etc. that would prove otherwise). And Mikel and I have always had a decent rapport. You can ask him about the various times I would fight him, recording data to give to him so he could roughly gauge how his overall pth was progressing, or any times when I would tell him my exact stats on Evasion or MM (Mikel, feel free to post any chatmails, etc. that would prove otherwise).
And I have always respected you, PM, and have never felt entitled to beating Koy.
in addition i just realized that this situation is very reminiscent of the bast gift arrow thread. now if we could just have bast come in and ask for a "cease and desist" the irony would be complete.
April 19 2007 12:05 PM EDT
I completely understand your perspective sut. But you must also see that when you rant/complain/debate about virtually everything someone represents, repeatedly over a long period of time at that, it seems bias from outside perspective.
Even if the gun is only pointed in demonstration, its *STILL* a pointed gun.
It really comes down to how it matters to you I guess. My only suggestion is to propose your discussions in a different light. Instead of "so and so is using this, I can't beat it" try "such and such strategy seems overpowered for these reasons, what are everyone's opinions?".
Sutek, what are those line thingies in your post? :)
Anyone wanna get stuck into;
"Is it intended, and is it good practice, for there to be no competition between the top 5 charcaters in the game, as they're all in the same clan?"
Instead of each other? :P
April 19 2007 12:15 PM EDT
I have no idea what you all are talking about, after all this time I've played this game I still don't understand it...
I just buy stuff and click! I'm an idiot, when it comes to this game!
April 19 2007 12:15 PM EDT
group hug on a hot day like today? Urg.
As I mentioned way near the beginning of this post, and as GL reiterated, the whole purpose (whether it came out that way or not) is that some people, myself included, thought that clans were engineered in such a way so as to prevent the top 5 characters from being able to be in the same clan together. (Wow... long sentence).
If you've found a way to bust through that engineered wall, then kudos to you. It's just like how the MgS is engineered so that +50 is a bit of a wall. If you forge your way past it or spend the money to BS it past that point, then kudos to you! Sutekh dumped 85m XP into Protection to find that it maxes at 33 or 34. If you work hard enough to pump 100m+ XP into it to get to 35, then kudos to you!
Changes are usually made in this game not to restrict actions, but to make them very difficult or otherwise undesirable. If you still want to go forward with it, you can. It just takes a lot of effort. I think Jon stated somewhere once that he prefers subtle dissuasion of actions as opposed to outright blockage. Perhaps it was in the PR/NW thread way back in May of 2005.... I'm not really sure.
The point is that when you bust through those engineered walls, sometimes Jon cares (especially when they break the game, like having massive arrows) and things are changed. Sometimes he doesn't (like with the MgS NW scale). What it comes down to is whether or not he still cares if the top characters are all in the same clan, as he once did. If so, then there will soon be more restrictions that reinforce the wall and make it harder to break through and accomplish that. If not, then we need to get more people in the 2.5m+ score range to shake things up. I know of at least two people who intend to, one of whom actually can.
Add the VB to my list of examples... Originally, Jon thought that its base damage of 75 was enough of a restriction to prevent it from being overpowered. Several people decided to try to bust through the wall with it and see what it can really do. Jon then reinforced the wall, and now it's base damage is less.
I'm anxious to see what happens when someone builds a $150m NW SOD.
Maybe I should....
April 19 2007 1:44 PM EDT
**Look a topical post**
As for the reason why clan fighting is so well integrated into the game, I can offer up a few guesses.
The clan system is set up so that non-active clans are broken up automatically and it assumes that active clans would bump non-active players due to negative CP gains. This means that it is difficult for non-active players to remain in a clan. Combine this with the fact that you get two to three times as many points for fighting clan members and you have a great incentive to fight only active players.
If the point of the clan system is to discourage farming farms and econ clan members, well then it works. It works through a simple application of the carrot and stick method. The clan bonus is big enough that nobody who fights to win would dare not be in a clan.
There are other matters, like team unity and such and such. If the game didn't have clans, then people would gripe and whine about it until the end of time (as they do with tournaments). However, I don't think these points matter as much as the function of clans as it is described above.
That being said, there are those who fight outside the clan system. There are also those who don't want to be in clans, but know they can't fight without the clan bonus. These players make their own clans and close them out (sutekh being one of these).
Also, we are now presented with something, which I mentioned before in my first response, has been in the making for a long time. This amounts to the worse spectator sport in the history of games, seeing top players _not_ duking it out. Now I know we have no right to force them to fight each other. I'm all together against having clans randomized. I think that people should have the right to choose who they have on a team.
However, that isn't the only issue. If it were, then it may not be enough of a reason to change things. The other issue people have is that a clan has found a way to maximize gains and take the top spot 99% of the time. This might be as well be a justifiable win on their part.
Nonetheless, the question is, was the clan system ever intended to be cornered by people who already had the top teams, thus furthering their lead with a greater bonus, or was it suppose to be an equal-opportunity employer?
Now, even if we think that for some reason the clan system needs to be adapted to avoid this "stagnation", we still need to address the "problem" of people fighting farms. I think the solution is simple, do nothing. Currently, if you fight a farm, they won't get their score back up unless some moron fights them continuously to either lose or draw. Eventually you collect a negative bonus, or even worse, the farm ends up being auto-retired. Personally, I don't see why we are forced to fight only those with active characters. If we were forced to play that way from our first fight on, then we wouldn't be able to get new characters off the ground.
We need the bogus opponents. This becomes especially true when you get to my level. It honestly never stops becoming important. This is the prime reason, in my calculations, why the scores climb the way they do and start to stagnate once you hit the one million mark. Once you get there you are prime for being farmed by active players and you need to now fight them in order to keep your CP up. At that point you can simply say good bye to the 100% fight bonus. Now you might still have a few people you can grab the 100% bonus from, but you can't do it from everyone on your list. Eventually, your positive bonus goes to negative. After that point, you are using your clan bonus to simply fight the penalty you are getting. So the story goes.
April 19 2007 1:56 PM EDT
I can't believe I just wasted an hour of my life addressing this issue.
I can't believe I did the same thing, Vestax.
Don't ever let me utter these words again, but I actually agree with Nerevas on this post (gasp!).. No matter how many times someone calls a mutt a great dane.. it's still a mutt.
Ironically, all the things Sut has been complaining about can/could be solved if he put his mind to it.. FYI, BR's big bad ToE can be taken care of with exactly those things that you said have no effect.. TSA, PL, AC etc. You want change at the top so badly that you're still here flaming away? "I have the best mage offensive ever".. lol, apparently not? PM has even said it time and time again: you have a large amount of DM wasted because they CHANGED their strat to suit yours (and everyone elses). Maybe "undieing" was a bit harsh of a word to use.. but that doesn't change the fact that your quotes say one thing, but your actions say another. Flame wars tend to do that though, I guess.
The funny part is, I agree with most of the crap you say Sut! After listening to it for months, though.. it's getting tiresome. If you want to include me in your flame war then feel free, but don't make false claims in the way that just because YOU can't beat someone means that noone can.
I've watched the clan war(s) from the sidelines for months now.. now I'm in the "fray" (as PM calls it). It's not so bad.. a little bit of NW paired with a good strat isn't a bad idea.. if only Freed knew what he could do! Stagnation was the correct word to describe the top, although it's not stagnant from lack of movement, just lack of good strat and good people apparently. So in this thread we've had: the magic-sucks-so-much-more-than-everything-else card, the NW card, the clan card, and the "oh-why-can't-my-strat-beat-anything-with-wasted-exp card.. how about the shut-the-heck-up and get on with the game card?
Again I ask.. who has the cahones to join together to take out the top dawg (haha)? As Flamey said, let the flames stop! Bit of situational irony there, eh?
April 20 2007 1:31 AM EDT
' if only Freed knew what he could do'
what can I do m8 ? Perhaps the experts can tell me. As far as I am concerned (without going the DD tat route) - all I can do is fight more - my MPR is pretty low compared to most others in the top 10.
April 20 2007 1:51 AM EDT
"Oh, the things you could do!"
said the Fox to the Shoe
"You could kick a bouncy ball,
kick a man's shins, too!
Then while he is down
you can steal his full wallet
Use a shaver on his head
and give him a mullet!
Oh the things you could do!"
said the Fox to the Shoe,
"But if I'm asked whom to blame
it'll be you I point to."
An original poem made up by OB, just now, 10 seconds ago.
I think it is pretty darned good.
April 20 2007 4:43 AM EDT
Thanks that helps - I will implement your suggestions immediately :)
April 20 2007 10:34 PM EDT
Freed = 800k below Top MPR, that's a hell lot, you can't expect him to do that much, NW can't be everything.
April 20 2007 10:47 PM EDT
Now that's a funny thing to say Flamey, I can people that much higher than myself in MPR because of NW.
April 20 2007 10:49 PM EDT
PM has decent NW and remember not all 1 billion he is using, he's got useless crap lying around.
April 20 2007 10:55 PM EDT
I think Freed was doing just fine, him and Sut made 2 people in BR Change their strategies, that's saying something on it's own. Now like Sut, Freed needs to re-tool his strategy and come back out shootin'. If you were freed and had all of his gear, how would you set him up to be competitive vs everyone, including those in BR?
"If you were freed and had all of his gear, how would you set him up to be competitive vs everyone, including those in BR? "
He and I were talking the other night. Watch out!
April 20 2007 11:22 PM EDT
Good, now let me catch up before you implement it. ;)
April 21 2007 4:37 AM EDT
"If you were freed and had all of his gear, how would you set him up to be competitive vs everyone, including those in BR? "
I haven't been analysing strategies and have probably lost track of BR's strategies, but I don't think Freed could have one strat to beat all of BR.
"If you were freed and had all of his gear, how would you set him up to be competitive vs everyone, including those in BR?"
Single 'archer'. Sell all the gear and plow it into a SoD and two sets of Ex Shots (x1000 for defense of course).
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