New Clan Concepts (in General)


[T]Vestax April 17 2007 3:55 PM EDT

Feel welcome to add your own ideas to reshaping clan fighting.


I personally have an idea which I like very much. The basic concept is to allow clan members to fight with special Clan BA, which might be granted say once every ten minutes. The point of the extra BA isn't to grant extra cash or xp. Nothing says you need to earn anything from these fights other then clan points. The part that makes this balanced is that before a clan fight, the server temporarily rescales your stats so that either your NW and MPR match the NW and MPR of the opponent or somehow your PR matches the PR of the opposing team.

Aside from fixing the stagnation of the top clan being unbeatable, we finally also get to see if people have a strategy that would do well if they ever made it to the top. It also means that people with different BA rates aren't hampered in their ability to compete in some way. The rest of clans can work the same. Granting a clan bonus to the top clans for regular fights.

Also, there would be no reason for the top players to not fight for the top spot once again.

Godpanda April 17 2007 4:20 PM EDT

I like it.

However, I can't see a system that would allow PR's to match. Too many things would change because of varies in NW.

AdminNightStrike April 17 2007 5:01 PM EDT

grr.. I put like 3 or 4 ideas in the other thread. There needs to be a better way to trans-thread messages....

Idea 1:

*----
Here's a wonderfully radical and crazy idea --

Every Sunday, or perhaps the first Sunday of every month, totally randomize all clan memberships. Everyone will sign up to be in fighting clans in general as opposed to a specific clan. Then, apply some algorithm, either as simple as random() or something more complex that takes into account activity in the past time period, current Score/PR/MPR, etc. Create a clan distribution for the next time period and let everyone enjoy their new teammates. Talk about stirring the pot around here!

That's *almost* like tournaments... The tournament becomes the clan. Kinda. It's an idea, at least. I think it might possibly be fun.
*----


Idea 2:
*----
You could make clans be limited to 4 people, much like characters are limited at 4 minions. Each person much be in a separate refresh category -- 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. Ok, I guess that's 5... the 10/10 guy we'll call the Tattoo (or, I guess Familiar is more appropriate).
*----


Idea 3/4:
*----
You could also make it so that when you hit 6/10, you get bumped from your clan.. Maybe have it so that either 6/10 people can't join clans at all, or that they have to rejoin a clan (which means you need to find a clan small enough that you can fit in it PR-wise)
*----


So there's a smattering of ideas to continue the rolling ball.

QBsutekh137 April 17 2007 5:02 PM EDT

Those *-- are really distracting, NightStrike. :P

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] April 17 2007 5:06 PM EDT


Indeed, what are those? They appear to be divisions for footnotes, as if you are giving us only the footnotes to some larger text not available.

AdminNightStrike April 17 2007 5:11 PM EDT

Sut was joking about the fact that I used the horizontal line as a divider in my QB response, and it caused a calamity. I used it here again in the same fashion -- to quote my previous text.

deifeln April 17 2007 6:17 PM EDT

What if 'random clan' was an option and you would get higher rewards for being in a top clan if it was of the 'random' type. This could change week to week. You could only exit such a clan on Sunday, forcing people to work with their assigned clan.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 17 2007 10:57 PM EDT

Here's my thought (sorry if anyone else has already suggested it).

How about setting clans to 5 people maximum and completely forgetting MPR totals? Each clan is allowed one person in a particular range. One at the 6/10, 7/10, 8/10, 9/10, and 10/10 refresh rate (or could use MPR ranges, whichever Jon preferred). Once a character outgrows his current rate, his character is automatically removed (unless the next spot up is open).

This would have a variety of advantages:
a) More social: most players would end up moving around quite a bit, and get to know many other players.
b) Competition: no longer will all the top players be able to huddle together and bully anyone that's close, the top players have to actually fight people *their own size*.
c) Recruitment: new players and NCB guys will actively be scouted, adding worth to both of them. Could help CB grow, you never know.
d) Freshness: this system would allow many more people to enjoy a big bonus. The top clans would very likely change from week to week.
e) My idea: since it's my idea you know it's great ;)

Thanks for reading.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 18 2007 11:53 AM EDT

vaynard that seems like a very good solution!

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 19 2007 2:25 PM EDT

Thank you. Glad to know there is at least one person on CB that liked it.

AdminNightStrike April 19 2007 2:33 PM EDT

I liked it even better when I said it ;)

DiabloSpawn April 19 2007 3:01 PM EDT

My solution: No more clans and we all get 15% bonus :P

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 19 2007 3:13 PM EDT

There would be no point in anyone receiving a bonus if there were no clans DS.
If that's your solution then we should just abolish clans and 'not' give a bonus.

QBsutekh137 April 19 2007 3:27 PM EDT

Zog, a plan with no drawbacks! Capital idea!

DiabloSpawn April 19 2007 4:24 PM EDT

I was only pullin the old leg, Zog ;P

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 19 2007 4:56 PM EDT

I like clans though Sut, they also promote the social side of CB.
They also keep my attenion away from posting in every single thread with my point of view on te matter at hand ;P

QBRanger April 19 2007 7:43 PM EDT

Well I for one really dislike the idea of only 1 person per BA regen in a clan.

Let us look at BR, since it is obvious that this is the reason these threads occur.

Specifically look at Little Devil.

Joined CB May 14, 2006. Joined BR May 14, 2006.

So when he joined he as but a noob, 10/10 regen rate. How were we to know then he would be the monster he is now? We weren't. We took a chance on him and guess what, it worked. There are plenty of other new players that can be recruited and cultivated into powerful players. We in BR have done it. Why cannot other clans?

So if we already had someone at 9/10 regen rate, when LD got to the level what? See ya, bye, thanks for the memories? A NUB gets to 8 BA regen rather quickly, so they have to find another clan at 9, then leave and find another and another?

What about the camaraderie of clans? We freely trade items among each other, talk strategy, etc.. This idea would just destroy that. You would have people jumping in and out of clans with stupid frequency. But it seems a few people want that, esp those who hate clans to begin with and just want to blow the current system up.

Again, as I said in a past thread, why punish people that play hard, use their BA and play as a clan should play? That is trading items, loaning items, going over strategy, among other things.

The problem is of course the "stagnation" at the top. However as I have typed numerous times in other threads, there are a few players that should adapt their character and enter the fray anew. Every character has a weakness that can be exploited if you adapt and change just like others have.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 19 2007 8:48 PM EDT

I for one do not believe any camaraderie would be lost in the least bit by having clans made up of characters in different refresh rates. You would just have to enjoy the time you got to play beside one another, and move on. You would meet more new people, forge friendships, and then keep meeting more. I want to think a good friendship could survive someone being in clan B instead of A.

You would still have your 4 buddies that you could talk to and trade items to so they would have an advantage over other clans. You would have a good time, but they'd eventually move on. We should not be afraid of a little change.

One team per refresh rate would encourage change and adaptation. Successful clans, where everyone competed, would always need new members. The best would have to compete the hardest. That is what the system is supposed to be now, but instead we have the "untouchables" sitting at the top with only one or two players able to take a few CP from them.

If forcing clans to compete on equal terms is punishment, then yes, our system needs to punish us.


***One last idea: instead of one team per refresh rate, give each clan 14 points. A 6/10 refresh rate team costs 5 points, 7/10 is 4 points, and on down to 10/10 costing just 1. Let each clan decide for itself what strategy to use. Have a few powerhouses, or a good range of characters. At each clan's formation, the leader selects to either auto-remove the one with increasing points (when past max) or to get the choice of who to kick (no bonus until under Max points.) This would be the same as my previous idea, but allow the clans more control over their strategy and how they play the game.

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 12:35 AM EDT

It is obvious this thread exists because of BR. Everyone, try to stay on topic.

Flamey April 20 2007 12:36 AM EDT

I don't like this thread.

Clans aren't broken, it's just whether top 5 characters should all be in the same clan and stagnation.

Nerevas April 20 2007 12:47 AM EDT

Am I the only person who doesn't mind that the top players are clanned together?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] April 20 2007 12:54 AM EDT


No. They don't mind either.

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 1:18 AM EDT

"What about the camaraderie of clans?"

I personally think it'd be increased with change placed into the clans. I think on a larger scale, camaraderie BETWEEN clans... ie, all around friendships, would increase.

Just the other day, I loaned Titan an SF for a day for free so that he could try a better way to beat me. I worked with Impulse to find a way to beat me, as well, before he was needlessly banned. See, this is what I like to see. It's like the chat is the gym, where we all work together. Then we go out on the actual field and see who did the best in the gym. Many sports follow this -- on or off the field, you work to find out who's the best, even when that means helping those you're fighting.

Now picture this. Take that mentality, and think what it would be like if we were all working with each other, and we all had teams that changed with time. In essence, I'm saying that what BR does should be a model for what we should all do, irregardless of clans.


I used to do a lot of theatre work. I was a lighting designed and tech director for a long time. We'd spend 6 to 10 weeks on a production and work our bloody tails off with a team of people pulling 30 hour shifts 7 days a week through the entire period. At the end, we'd strike it all and relax for a week or two before pulling together a new team and doing it again.

It was wonderful. You wind up mingling much better.. learning much better.. you learn to leverage yourself against others, and to be flexible, and to create relationships quickly and efficiently and *effectively*, since you have to keep doing it over and over. And you get closure after every show. You start something, you see it through, and you finish it. That "something" entails everything from the relationship building to the show itself.

This is giving me a nice thought. Everyone wants tournaments, right? Why not just blend tournaments with the normal carnage itself instead of having a separate beast -- Make the tournament a tournament of clans. Every quarter, teams form and we fight. At the end of the quarter, the clan with the most points is the winner of that tournament. Everything else about clans stays the same -- points, bonuses, everything. Everything else about CB stays the same -- the ladder, the ranking, etc. I think that'd be a great change to address the stagnation. I think that'd help put a lot more people in the fight for the top, too. Further, I think it really encourages team building instead of clan building. There's a difference, you know?

Phrede April 20 2007 1:18 AM EDT

AH - didn't realize I have to join BR ;-)

Phrede April 20 2007 1:19 AM EDT

... and I am sure NWO and The Lega didn't realize also :)

Phrede April 20 2007 1:22 AM EDT

Another suggestion is that every clan should have a princess in it. That way we would all learn correct Grandma (sorry, grammar) and have a reason to buy Chanel presents when abroad.

QBRanger April 20 2007 6:10 AM EDT

Yes,

BR certainly needs its Princess. Our grammar is very poor and we need to be reminded every day to type correctly or be corrected.

QBJohnnywas April 20 2007 6:33 AM EDT

I thought BR already had a princess. My mistake.

;)

Vicious Cat April 20 2007 3:08 PM EDT

lol at Bast, and Bravo at NS
were the teams you suggested random?

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 3:47 PM EDT

They don't have to be random. They can be. Maybe let people choose to make their own team, or elect to be randomized.

Granted, if people could choose their own team, they'd possibly fall into the trap of always making the same teams.... but hopefully actions like that would be discouraged. Or rather, intermingling would be encouraged.

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 3:57 PM EDT

Impulse (Pop-SICKLE) got banned? You mean just forum-banned, right?

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 4:01 PM EDT

Yes, just silenced on the forums.

Adminedyit April 20 2007 4:06 PM EDT

I'll say it again. Find 4 or 5 guys that burn as much BA as we do here in BR and help each other out as we do here in BR and you will see a clan that gives us a run for 1st. All 4 of us are in the top 10 for clan MVP's for 1 month. That is a lot of BA burned. Can any other clan say they burn that much BA? We fight a lot. Why should we be penalized for fighting a lot?
This isn't directed at anyone in particular just a question I would like answered. Why since we burn more BA than any other clan should we be penalized for it? That is why we are in 1st place. We buy all our BA every day. It's a clan requirement. On top of that all 4 of us really like this game so we play it as much as and as often as we can. Burning as much BA as possible. So I'll say it again, if you want to give us a run for 1st then fight more. Buy all your BA every day. Fight as much as you can every day. All 4 of us are in the 6 BA per rate. It shouldn't be hard for some of you that get more "free" BA a day to get more fights in than we do. That is why we are in 1st. Not because we are "unbeatable" but because we fight a lot.

QBOddBird April 20 2007 4:07 PM EDT

Am I the only person who doesn't mind that the top players are clanned together?

--Nerevas, 12:47 AM EDT



Nope. Sut, Wasp, TC and I don't mind being clanned together either. ^_^

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 4:16 PM EDT

I say it because I do not believe that 4-5 other people burning as much BA as you could best your score-- because of the "indestrucibility" of your clan (no negative points). How can a new squad beat you by using the same amount of BA when they have massive negative points and you have virtually none?

Even the 10/10 rule won't last long for a new crew...people get to 9 or 8 relatively quickly (especially with high BA usage), and even if they didn't, there is nothing stopping you guys from adding a couple of 10/10s yourself! Having large PR doesn't seem to be harming your score/raw ratio much, so why not add a couple more? It is that unbeatable cadre in BR that is the reason BR stays at the top -- no negative points is the key.

Given Popsicle Man's response to my original clan post, it seems to me he would agree that a clan with no negative points would be hard to beat. In any case, I did not hear him say that high BA usage alone could beat BR. He said someone would have to change and adapt and be able to BEAT BR members to be a better clan. Is that what you are saying, edyit, or do you really think a normal clan (even with great BA usage) can beat a clan with virtually no negative points? It's an honest, non-aggressive question, and I'm just askin'.

DISCLAIMER: Sutekh respects the greatness that is BR and all of BR's members. Sutekh is not attacking anyone. Sutekh is just asking questions. Batteries not included.

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 4:21 PM EDT

Edyit, BA burned isn't the issue. CPs do not equal battles fought. With some recent exception due to extenuating circumstances, I fight more than most realize -- 130,053 battles challenged in 3 months. In fact, I burn 24 hours of BA a day almost all the time. It's unlucky that sometimes I can't during XP time for various reasons, but the fact is, I fight like a bandit.

And I make trash clan points.


I'm getting tired of hearing that you guys fight more than anyone else. You don't. It has nothing to do with fight dedication. It has to do with the fact that larger characters are harder to beat, plain and simple. There aren't enough players in the top ranks to keep things shaking. There's about 13 people who represent the top ranks. After the top 13, there's a score gap of about 500k-600k. Anyone below that cut off point is playing a very different game. So with only 13 people, having 4 and 5 people in one clan severely limits what's going on, totally irregardless of BA spent.

Adminedyit April 20 2007 4:22 PM EDT

Sut this in no way a flame towards you. Only 1 person in BR is "unbeatable" and that is PM. And that is because when someone finds a way to beat him he adapts his strat. And on a side note it looks like Hell Blenders is dead set on proving all you guys wrong as they are currently in 1st place in clan standings.

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 4:23 PM EDT

Grr.. we're getting off topic, and you dragged me with you, Edyit. Stop bringing this back to a BR thing. I think I had a great idea about clan if there were 20 BR's all fighting and mixing it up.

.. April 20 2007 4:25 PM EDT

looks lik Freed can beat everyone in BR

Adminedyit April 20 2007 4:25 PM EDT

What are you talking about NS? Those CP's listed in stats are gross CP's not net. So obviously fighting a lot has something to do with it.

QBJohnnywas April 20 2007 4:30 PM EDT

I'm not on as much as some, but still I use every BA in an eighteen hour span every day. But I simply cannot, as a NCB player buy BA every day. In fact it's at the stage, and has been for a while, where I cannot afford to buy BA at all.

Half a million a day for bought BA; it's a little bit out of my reach when I'm only earning a million or so a week.

QBJohnnywas April 20 2007 4:41 PM EDT

What I'm saying is: if you are fighting a NCB character, with BA costs being what they are, it is pretty difficult to be competitive within the clan system. Zog and me probably fight a similar amount of battles a day. But he buys his BA regularly, which is why he is one of the MVPs on a regular basis. Meanwhile I earn half the 'raw' clan points he does. So if there is a 'reshape' to clan fighting it should take that into account.

Dunno how though; perhaps a NCB bonus clan point per battle or something - if you haven't bought BA...

;)

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 5:07 PM EDT

edyit, I have been careful to use the word "virtually" unbeatable. Check your battle log. See how many people can beat you. The smaller that number, the more "invulnerable" you are. BR has a high level of "invulnerability" using this definition, and will have even more of it once Mikel is done with his NCB.

NS is trying to point out (along with me) that it is the invulnerability factor that makes a clan hard to beat. Unless you can actually beat that clan itself, you aren't going to gain on it no matter how many BA you use. Because losses _hurt_. Do you dispute NS's point that he burns a LOT of BA and yet still has abysmal net clan points?

I don't take your comment personally in the slightest, because I didn't say anything personal about you either. *smile* This is how civilized discussions are held!

As far as Hell Blenders, where do you think they will be when it matters, at 11 AM CST tomorrow morning (the beginning of high experience time)? I am sure BR is clever enough to skew clan fighting toward later in the day on Fridays, yes? Probably starting right about...now? To maximize bonus during the whole of high experience times? I have no doubt that Hell Blenders knows this as well, perhaps they just felt like pulling the trigger a bit sooner to move up the ranks for a spell. It isn't hard to be high in the ranks. Look at my user pic -- then read the caption. I got into the top five with a singleton. WOW! GDI must be a great clan! Not hardly. I blew my BA at a traditional low point for other clans who would have been concentrating on maximizing high experience times. It ain't rocket science, and it's hardly a compelling argument to show how precarious BR's top spot is.

QBRanger April 20 2007 5:27 PM EDT

A few points:

BR did not get this way overnight. We all worked hard on our characters spending tons and tons of BA (except Edyit who bought Jayuu's character but he will use tons of BA on it). It is not like the top 4 characters got together overnight to make a super clan.

I bought a high MPR character and equipped it well. This character was available for a lot of people to buy and was relatively cheap

Little Devil made his fresh from a NUB.

Mikel is going the NCB route, a route traveled by others.

Edyit bought Jayuu's character, a character available to many others.

Now, even buying a high MPR character means nothing if you do not use it.

We in BR are doing just that. So again, people want to penalize us for doing things well.

While we are virtually unbeatable, we have gotten this way by ADAPTING. I will say it again----ADAPTING.

Edyit had to unlearn/relearn as I did. But it seems other people like to stand pat and not adapt. Why should BR be punished for this?

With changes to their characters, there are at least 5 other character that can take points away from BR without double tapping. Some persist on not unlearning/relearning, other use tattoos/familiars that are not the best for their specific team, others do not use the proper equipment for their setup.

So, lets blow up the clan system as it is. Randomize people into clans with others they do not want to be with. O, I can think of the possibilities. Or, like some want, just forget clans altogether.

But, please, once again, do not say BR is 'virtually' unbeatable when others will not do what is needed to beat some of us. Nothing is stopping the other top 10 players from getting together and ganging up on BR.

Yet again, others will not adapt, unlike Little Devil, Edyit and I. Seems we are 'virtually' unbeatable due to the stagnation of others, not the stagnation of ourselves. But, of course, let us punish the top dog for doing it right.

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] April 20 2007 5:35 PM EDT

why change something that isn't broken?
yes BR is always first, they used a lot of usd on it so let them be first, its only a game, we at HB are almost always number 2 without the use of USD (exept when there is a new supporter item out)
the clan system is fine as it is so leave it this way

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 5:44 PM EDT

"why change something that isn't broken?"

This thread is predicated on the fact that the clan system was engineered to stop the top characters from all being in the same clan. Just like everything else in this game, when people find a way to bust down a door, it gets reinforced.

This has nothing to do with BR -- they did it, so now others can and probably will do it, too. That will turn the 500k score rift I mentioned earlier into a giant massive rift. That's far from a good thing.

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] April 20 2007 5:55 PM EDT

if something had to change its the amount of exp you get, the bonus adds mayby 1-2 exp a fight if its that much, when HB has 15% i don4t get more exp then normal so why whine that BR is always number 1 when they maby get 2 exp more then other people

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 6:05 PM EDT

Stating that, currently, "BR is virtually unbeatable" is a fact, PM. You are the one who says the onus is on others to beat you. *shrug* I don't care if anyone beats you or not, and it's not my job to spend more USD. (if you think Hubbell could give you a run with his current net worth, please, do tell!). What you hide in your "adapt" mantra is the presumption that other people will do what you did to get where you are, and you did a couple things that others can't or won't: buy a large character and/or spend USD (I don't care if your USD spending was largely in the past -- you built a resource base that doesn't disappear). I have already told you I won't do those things. I am not going to spend any more USD.

So please, seriously, tell me how you would make Hubbell as strong as Koy on a budget. If the response is: "I couldn't do it without adding net worth", then we will finally be on the same page -- you will have finally begun to understand where I am coming from. Everything I have you can see -- it's on Hubbell, and that's it. Hubbell's net cash gain (after buying BA to keep the MPR pace) is probably around 100-200K a day, let's say... 1 million a week. (That's really rough, I don't really keep track...)

At that rate, it would take me 300 weeks to get the net worth that Koy has. I'll be a sport and say I am a genius at rentals, loaning, mercantiling...I'll cut that in one-third -- 100 weeks = 2 years. So sure, in two years I could have a 350 million net worth team of similar MPR to Koy. Of course, Koy will also be 300 million further along. Since a portion of your physical damage can be augmented by money, and the rest would be playing the same MPR game as Hubbell, who do you think would still be stronger in 2 years?

So, either tell me how to make Hubbell able to break BR with it's current net worth (and still be able to beat those who he can currently beat), or you really need to stop telling me to "adapt" (assuming you are still directing that silliness at me, sorry, I'm a narcissist). I saw you had some success with an IF, then back to ToE, now onto an FF. Gosh, you've already spent 800K that I don't have in order to "adapt". Where exactly do you think I have the cash for that? What ENTITLES you to DEMAND that I spend USD to "adapt"?

AdminNightStrike April 20 2007 6:25 PM EDT

And thus the thread gets thrown way off course..... Sorry, Vestax......

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 6:45 PM EDT

Sorry, guys -- I do think PM's "adapt" counter needs to be addressed right heere so that the ideas keep coming. Don't you think there are people out there who read, see PM's message, and say, "Yeah, everything's fine, folks just need to adapt", and then discount the (fantastic) ideas y'all are having?

As far as ideas on-topic, I am at a loss because you guys are far better idea men than I will ever be. *smile*

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 6:48 PM EDT

Back on-topic: Maybe it has already been said, but I agree that people should be allowed to clan with who they want -- I just think the score/raw penalty needs to be re-worked so that certain avenues become walls. Like you said, NS, if people want to fight the wall anyway, let them. But if the multiplier for BR was 0.5 instead of something above 1.00, I bet they would "adapt" real quick-like! The score/raw was put there for a reason -- I just think it needs to be changed.

QBRanger April 20 2007 8:20 PM EDT

Sut,

As I have stated, yet again and yet again, your DM is useless vs most of BR since we do not use ED spells mostly.

However, it is not my place to spoon feed you on how to beat myself, LD or edyit.

If you cannot figure it out by yourself, then I guess this thread will never have an adequate solution other then "Let us penalize the top clan since they play the game so well with the current rules. Let us rewrite the book to make them suffer for working as a team so well:"

Well if that is the way Jon wants it, I am sure we in BR will yet again ADAPT.

DiabloSpawn April 20 2007 8:24 PM EDT

CB Evolution, gotta love it

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 8:32 PM EDT

You didn't answer my question, PM. Do I need NW? My combined DM is around 2.7 million (stacked). So, I use that for EC? AMF? Both? I guarantee you if I get rid of my DM, I will lose to NWO instantly (he kills everything except my main mage, even now). How do you account for that? What is going to make up the difference, other than net worth?

You keep saying meaningless things as if they are important, PM. Try answering my questions, and maybe we can reach some common ground, eh?

QBRanger April 20 2007 8:48 PM EDT

I never typed you can beat everyone, but you can certainly give BR a nice run with your MPR.

With your limited NW you certainly will lose to 1 or 2 people while perhaps beating 1 or 2 of BR.

But do not expect me to give you the details how to do this.

[T]Vestax April 20 2007 9:00 PM EDT

Alright you two. Go find a room together.

If you post one more time making any sort of comment directed at each other, then I'm having an admin either close this post or have them remove everything you guys say.

QBsutekh137 April 20 2007 10:45 PM EDT

Oh Vestax, pooh pooh.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 20 2007 11:31 PM EDT

I am sorry if my ideas made anyone feel threatened, or made them feel like they should be "penalized" (in their own words.) And yes, those that fight the most should be rewarded. But is the status quo alright? I am sure it is great for certain clan(s), and I would defend it myself if I was you, but how about everyone else?

Look at this from the view of the average CB Joe (not me). Joe has a respectable character, fights a respectable amount. No matter how much Joe fights and how high his MPR goes he'll get farmed into the ground by the established few clans that sit atop the rankings whenever they feel threatened. Yes, they fought their way to get there, but it's a perversion of the system. I am of the belief that Jon put clan MPR limits in place to stop all the biggest characters from joining one or two clans. There seems to be a flaw in clan size limits, and the only way to do anything about it is to raise our concerns and hope Jon addresses them.

Forcing everyone to compete on EQUAL terms is in no manner a punishment or penalty. It is a bonus for the masses. Even if teams were divided more evenly among teams- each of the clans with those teams would excel. Sure, they wouldn't be guaranteed a 15% bonus day in and day out. But they would do well, very well.
And competition would flourish, instead of steady stagnation and resentment.

No one should be guaranteed the top bonus every day of every week of every month. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

QBRanger April 20 2007 11:38 PM EDT

Yes Vaynard,

Let's reward people for being average.

Let us look at it from the point of those that do fight a lot and build their characters/MPR. Let us make their accomplishments moot in clan fighting?

Let the average Joe fight a lot, get into a decent clan, and have his clanmates lend him items or give him strategy advice. Little Devil did it. What is to stop the average Joe from doing it?

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

AdminNightStrike April 21 2007 12:04 AM EDT

"What is to stop the average Joe from doing it? "

I was thinking about this today while doing some other things. I realized what I was trying to say earlier about the score gap. I think what is stopping people is the lack of active players.

In order for me to move up, as an example, I need to get a higher challenge bonus. However, there's no one around to provide that, and it's not physically possible at my current level to jump the gap yet. Further, the only people within reach of me are not in clans. By the time that changes, my NCB will be over.

I think a lot of these issues would be gone if the score distribution were not so blocky. With a better distribution, there are less dead zones, and the dead zones that are there would not be 500k points wide.

What we need are more than 20 people that are *capable* of competing in the real high stakes room. It is possible that that may just be the new clan concept, as per the original post.

Mikel April 21 2007 12:13 AM EDT

I have to side with PM, I'm taking my lumps growing my character. It's the same for anyone else. You have to take some lumps to get to the light at the end of the tunnel (or at least come close). What is stopping a couple of the top MPR players from starting up a clan and having some proven vets start an NCB at the same time to grow up and put up a challenge for the top?? Nothing that I can see.

JW apply for a loan from NS if you need cb2 to buy your BA, and work it out with him about paying him back after your NCB is up, just an idea.

NS, it's not always about burning all of your BA possible in one day. On your Battle Log for the last 24 hours, you have 6/11 people that you have hit over 100 times in the last 24 hours that are not in a clan.

Last but not least, Sut, Your NW is fine, that is not what needs to be changed. And PM has never said that you can beat everyone with a slight change, if beating BR is tops on your list, then don't worry about NWO, or better yet, join a clan with him, then you have him helping you with CP's instead of hurting yours and pull in a few NCB's. I'm sure you would have some people that would jump in line with an NCB to get into your clan.

AdminNightStrike April 21 2007 12:17 AM EDT

"JW apply for a loan from NS if you need cb2 to buy your BA, and work it out with him about paying him back after your NCB is up, just an idea."

Several people have done this with great success.

QBRanger April 21 2007 12:18 AM EDT

Finally someone who understands my posts.

Coincidence that he is also in BR? I think not. That is why BR is so successful, we mostly think the same and cooperate as such.

AdminNightStrike April 21 2007 12:20 AM EDT

"NS, it's not always about burning all of your BA possible in one day. On your Battle Log for the last 24 hours, you have 6/11 people that you have hit over 100 times in the last 24 hours that are not in a clan."

Choices are severely limited, unfortunately.

Also, sometimes it *is* about BA. Friday I forgot to buy it :)

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 21 2007 12:21 AM EDT

No, their accomplishments would not be mooted (is this a word?). But having a wider range of characters in clans encourages competition. Normalcy would NOT win out. It would be how it is now- the clan that fought the most and lost the least wins.

I'm curious, let's examine some of the top teams, and see how competitive things really are. I hate all this "we fight most we deserve it!" with no backup. Let's look at points gained, points taken from, and see what things look like.

BR has lost 15,161 points the last month. They are human, they are touchable. But are they effectively touchable? They raised 317,679 points in that time. 4.56% of their combined win/loss points are from challenges.

Haven't tried the math yet, let's look at Hellblenders. 110,729 points taken away from them. They produced 336,158 points. Interesting enough, they outfought BR by 18,479 fights over the month! And by the way, 24.78% of their combined win/loss points are from losses.

Anarchy Online: lost 104,578 to challenges. Made 211,298. 33.11% combined win/loss points are from challenges.

Hidden Agenda: 109,526 points lost, 349,484 gained. That's 31,805 more points than the BR people. But their win/loss points total percent loss was 23.86%.

I am sure we could find the same on any other clan, so I'll just go with my old buddies in Templar Invictus. They produced only 192,273 points, and were hit for 93,877 points. 32.81% of combined win/loss points are points taken.


Our true champs, the hardest fighters, seem to be in the wrong spots in the rankings! Congrats to Hidden Agenda and second to HellBlenders! You have worked the hardest, won the most, and taken second and third for the month! Great system we have here. It would seem fighting the most isn't the end all of our system, but rather setting yourself up so you can't be touched by the majority of other teams. This sounds remarkably like what many have argued here in this very forum. Must be nice to only have half a handful of enemies.

How is this system fair that some teams get a puny 15k points docked while another fights more and loses 111k points. It is an unfair burden on any other competing team to need to overcome 100k extra points each month. BR, if you truly the best clan out there, why not support a system where each team has no unfair penalties and everyone fights on even ground? Afraid you will no longer be better than everyone else?

QBRanger April 21 2007 12:32 AM EDT

Again,

People wish to punish BR by fighting their way to the top.

Considering BR has 4 people in it, all with the lowest BA regeneration rate, the accomplishment IMO is quite nice.

Just look at the top CP producers for the month:

BR has the 2,3,5 and 8th highest. Yes, we make less CP's vs other clans with 5 or 6 people in it, some with much higher regeneration rates. But we have all fought to the top or near it with hard "work".

I guess you and I have a difference of opinion on things.

I believe you can reach the top or near it with hard work and great cooperation. It seems others want things handed to them without having to work for them.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 21 2007 12:41 AM EDT

We seem to be ignoring eachother. You guys do work hard, you do put up extraordinary CP, you do compete with other clans with higher regen rates and/or more people. But you compete without any sort of handicap. You are a victim of your own success. After being so consistently strong and through good recruiting, your clan is practically untouchable.

Kudos.

But others have worked harder. Fought more. Found more buddies to cooperate with. And don't have a chance at taking the #1 spot away from you because they can't compete with you, only with other teams competing against them. Until something major changes, BR will not be competing, they will merely be existing at the top spot. Even though your members put up such terrific numbers, it really isn't necessary, and you would still be on top with thousands less battles daily.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 21 2007 12:43 AM EDT

"Let us look at it from the point of those that do fight a lot and build their characters/MPR. Let us make their accomplishments moot in clan fighting?"

yet you are okay with making your accomplishments moot by not challenging each other? we came to see a fight!! imagine if we all showed up to see the final four duke it out in basketball only to find that they had become clan mates. i predict a riot.

seriously though, the thing that concerns me is that the situation as it stands now is not that bad and we haven't (or at least i haven't) seen gross injustices. the system does allow it though.

we have heard that anyone could challenge the top clan right now and make a good run without ever defeating any of them. this is true. what has not been said is that if the top clan members were so inclined, they could then take pretty much all of the points earned away from the challengers. why would someone not do this when success in this game, at least at the top, is all about gaining whatever advantage you can over others. we also often hear in this type of game that if it is allowed it must be fair.

the people are not bad, however the game mechanics that would allow this are, unless jon wants it this way.

Yukk April 21 2007 1:02 AM EDT

PM, are you being purposely obtuse ? I don't argue that you guys fight all your meager BA every day and that you have worked hard to get where you are but what Vanyard and others are trying to say is that what you basically have is a gerrymander on CP.
While in theory with all the BA everyone else in CB produces they should be able to take top place, what really happens is that you get to keep 96% of all the CP you make while every other clan gives up 30% to over 100% (for those that get disbanded).
In effect, what this means is that for every clan win you get (and who can beat you) it's worth at least 3 wins for anyone else.
In terms of CP your regen rate is 18/10 while someone with 9BA is regenning CP at 3/10.
The great thing about a gerrymander is that once you get in power you can use that power to ensure you stay there as long as you want.
I know it's not your fault you're where you are. Who wouldn't get up there if they could ? I'd love to know that for every BA I burn I'm guaranteed 3 CP. Realistically I know that as long as I'm fighting someone is looking to farm me (usually Mikel - he's lightning. It's amazing) and for every 100 CP I manage to make without getting farmed, as soon as I walk away I expect to lose 30 to 60 of them.
Anyway, I like it how it is. I'm not too worried that there's one clan always getting the 15%. There's still the rest of the scoring places for all the other clans to squabble over.

QBRanger April 21 2007 1:09 AM EDT

OK,

So now I am obtuse by saying BR has played the game as a clan should be, but now that we are at the top others are saying "its not fair, let us blow BR apart via an admin action since we cannot do it ourselves"

That is total crock. Like I said, if other players got together to take out BR, it could be done. Like Mikel said, if Sut got with PoisoN and did not have to worry about him, he could unlearn his DM and do damage to BR. Have other people join and help with items (as we do in BR) could really do BR damage.
Get a nice NCB who actually uses all his/her BA and buys it everyday would get massive CPs and be too low for a while to lose major CPs.

But BR is united together, the other top players are not.

BR is not unbeatable, but a concerted effort needs to be done to unseat us.

I think perhaps those that think we are unbeatable are obtuse.

Mikel April 21 2007 1:14 AM EDT

Vaynard,

I just looked at one of the clans on the list that you said had more fights than us, again, they aren't all fighting other clan mates..... wasted opportunities on clan points... Heck I'd be first in line to say that I wished you earned the same amount of Clan points for winning vs anyone (Other clans/Non Clans). It would improve everyone's fight list, not just my own.

You seem to fail to realize that the current clan system is based on NET clan points, meaning that the system is setup exactly the way we are playing it, by gaining the most CP's without losing them. It is like that so that people at a 6/10 rate will have a fairer fighting ground vs people at a 9/10 rate. This game is always changing, Adapting to that change it very critical in being successful. Look at PM and his various characters, he's always mixed it up to stay on top. None of us like to re-train, but we will if we think it will improve our strat.

I would be willing to put quite a bit of money on the fact that if BR all started over as NCBs on the same day, that by the end of it, we'd be right back in the same spot. Of course we'd take plenty of lumps getting there but we'd just fight our way thru, just like you would have to do, but I'm sure the targets on our back would be twice as big as yours.

So what exactly is it that you are trying to reward these champs for? Fighting the most or fighting the most clan members? There is a big difference there.

Yukk April 21 2007 1:21 AM EDT

There was more than one word in my post, but if you're just going to take it as a personal attack, well, I can't stop that. That's up to you.
Sure a couple of no MPR NCBs could get together and make a bunch of CP, but nobody is ever too small to farm. As soon as their score goes up they're a lovely target for everyone else.
Even if they were to miraculously make more CP than you, then being the highly efficient clan that you are, you'd simply knock them back down.
Yes, Mikel and NS have created NCBs and are working them like true professionals and they deserve all their success but not everyone here can/wants to make that kind of $USD commitment. Sure, that makes us all amateurs. There, I admit it. I'm not a professional CBII player.

Phrede April 21 2007 1:36 AM EDT

If our clan got together and worked out a strategy and had the time to cary it out - we would certinly be challenging for number one spot. I could concentrate on hitting only BR players (apart from 'the man' :) ) . The other could focus on the other top 5 clans. The only problem with that is that most days I have like 2 hours to burn BA after I get back from work (via the pub ) so I find it hard to limit my fight list to 4 or 5 players. I guess other people are in a similar situation.

Its life - my personal belief is that the clans work about right. It is not just about getting three points from the bonus earners i is about taking points away from the top 5 rivals.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] April 21 2007 1:46 AM EDT

Mikel,

Does it matter that these other two teams have more points from fighting the most vs fighting more clan members? Either way they outscored you by 19k and 32k clan points total. I'm not sure if a single person here is making the argument that 3 points for a bonus clan is a problem...

Also, you hit the nail on the head with the second argument. The root of all the issues involved. It is net clan points. Which sounds good. But by stuffing one clan with members that are un-farmable save a couple of teams, you take the net right out of it. It's basic math.

Clan A makes X points a day. Clan B makes approximately X points a day as well. However, clan B must subtract Y points a day (Clan A's Y2 value is small enough to disregard, could be considered approximately 10% of clan B's Y value). Leaving the equation:
X > X - Y.

Unless some clan B either finds a way to give Clan A a significant Y value or increase their X points by Y, Clan A is untouchable. Even then, we have no guarantees Clan A will not further increase B's Y value through fighting.

And on the restart point, I really have no idea there. I haven't analyzed enough successful NCB's to be any sort of judge. Kudos to BR if they could do that though. I am not sure how many people are willing to give up their successful top tier characters for an attempt to overtake the champs though.

Mikel April 21 2007 2:11 AM EDT

"And on the restart point, I really have no idea there. I haven't analyzed enough successful NCB's to be any sort of judge. Kudos to BR if they could do that though. I am not sure how many people are willing to give up their successful top tier characters for an attempt to overtake the champs though."<br><br>You also hit the nail on the head, it's easier for people to ask for change than it is to do it yourself, motivation. If you want the top spot, come and get it.

AdminNightStrike April 21 2007 2:18 AM EDT

"they aren't all fighting other clan mates..... "

It's not always a viable option
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0025Iy">New Clan Concepts</a>