The thread you thought you would never see me post-Is the NUB/NCB too (in General)

Is the NUB/NCB too low now?

Look at Mikel.

He has less than 1 week left on his NCB and will get to about 2,050,000 MPR.
He has fought almost all the battles he possible could (I would ask him to confirm this), and even bought a minion just a couple weeks ago.

As I remember, the NUB/NCB is supposed to let someone get to 95% of the top MPR (2.6M) if they use all their BA. Well that would be 2.47M. Mikel is easily going to fall far short of that.

So, should the NUB/NCB be raised.

Of course I am posting this to give myself an advantage. I don't know what yet, but I am sure others will let me know what my subconscious is thinking.

Also,

Mikel was getting a 100% challenge bonus for quite a while due to his strategy and was getting a 15% clan bonus most of the NCB time.

There was not much more he could have done to maximize his rewards during his NCB.

What if he buys the other two minions right at the end of his NCB? He'll be very close to 2.47mil, I reckon :)

I believe he gets 150k MPR for each minion he buys.
But what about the character that starts off with 4 minions?

That would only get to under 2M MPR maximizing all rewards, buying all BA etc...

If he was single minion at 2M MPR, then his new 3 minions total would have given him 1/3 extra XP. Is that less, or more than 1/3 his MPR?

From what I remember, buying minions was not part of the calculations that determined what the NUB/NCB should be.

I think this is correct since both Mantra and Sut both got to first place with their NUB/NCB's by buying minions at the end.

If buying minions was part of the calculations, then even with buying minions, they should not have gotten into first MPR. Mantra was over 120k ahead of TAB after buying the last 2 minions on the character now known as Koy.

Agreed. Buying minions should not be part of the calculation to get close to the top MPR.

In addition, Mikel used an RoE for a large portion of his NCB, this should have gotten him much closer to the top than he now is.

Maybe the bonus needs to be recalibrated now that the threshold for a 6/20 regeneration rate is so big?

Zog, all accrual rate steps are already accounted for. Rewards scale. So the various stages of BA rates shouldn't affect things at all, assuming someone gets in the same amount of BA usage per day at all steps, and assuming a player isn't doing something silly like losing a lot of battles when they hit 6/20.

Plus, 6/20 means one can almost always get 24-hour BA usage in (take 8:40 to accrue all BA if down to zero). So I don't really think the new 6/20 rate is the problem.

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001q3G

Not much there but a few things about the nub which may or may not still apply.

it already was recalibrated, it was 170%, after BA change, it went down to 142%.

Yeah, my last NCB was 168%, now it's 144%. Maybe the recalibration was too low?

What I'd really like to see though is a reduction of the NUB cash rewards. The NCB is still penalised in regards to the NUB due to BA cost increase.

Money the way it is now, I don't see the need for new players to get such a boost. They should still be able to catch the top spot, I'm all in favour for the bonuses to do that, but increased cash rewards won't help that a jot. You've still got to spend USD to equal the top spots.

Or use a low cash (Mage based) strategy. Which can be done without increased cash rewards.

GL, will a player starting from scratch have enough cash for buying BA without a boost to cash? Bonus BA is very, very expensive.

Not as expensive as the NCB BA. ;)

But that could easily be remedied by reducing the cost of NCB BA, rather than increased cash rewards that might not get spent on BA. ;)

Sute, vastly cheaper BA ould give new players more play time, a concern the regen rate change has caused. Plus sort of tie in with your idea of subbing the NUB for extra BA. ;)

Plus, when you're facing 125 Million NW weapons up top, what cash reward bonus do you give a new player? Enough to equal that? Or admit that you realy need to buy cash to play with weapons that big. :)

GL, BA is the same price for NCB and NUB, as far as I know, so I am not entirely sure what you are talking about.

If you remove the cash aspect of the NUB, then what is the difference between the NUB and the NCB? Are you saying new players should not have any advantages over veterans who are starting over?

I'm confused...?

The XP bonus percent of the NCB also increases the BA cost.

So atm my BA puchase cost is 144% more expensive then a NCB or normal players.

I made a post about NCB being hit double by this (increased BA cost, not increased cash reward) and Jon admitted it was an intended 'spuidity tax' for starting over with a NCB. :)

Er;

"So atm my BA puchase cost is 144% more expensive then a NUB or normal players."

;)

Reducing the NUB cash reward would also reduce the 'Drum Banging' about NUBs playing only to sell out. ;)

No. A NUB BA cost is also increased. They just get more cash to buy it, yes?

Can someone else set me straight on this if I am wrong? I was under the impression that any bonus increases BA cost by that percent.

A NUB simply gets more cash in addition to the experience bonus. This lets the NUB buy all BA and have some cash for stuff that a new player would need.

GL, I suppose there could be a tweak here and there, but the bottom line is that a NUB is supposed to gain enough experience and enough cash so that their ending status gets them around 95% of cash and MPR what someone playing straight through from 1/1/2005 would have (sans any injected USD).

Why should the NUB be anything more or less than that? And why should the NCB be as cheap as a NUB?

Wishful thinking on the Gentleman's part I think...


This thread is filling me with nostalgia; it's like 2005 all over again!

Sorry Sute, I'm sure you're wrong here. ;) NUB BA cost is the same as a normal characters. (At least I'm sure it *used* to be this way! :P)

Any NUB and normal character in the same refresh mind posting thier BA costs?

NUB has inflated BA costs the same as NCB.

That's what I thought. Also:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001aRx

(sorry, cut and paste, I am too lazy).

That's the original NCB thread, and it has several people saying NUB BA cost is same as NCB BA cost.

I've had a NUB and a NCB. The NUB gets an increase to rewards both in cash and experience, it also has a increased cost to BA just like the NCB does. The NCB is for more experienced players who know the ropes and have thought out a strat. The NUB gives new players more cash so they can also get a hold of some gear. Both have the increased cost to purchase BA.

Yowsers!

I was well wrong! LoL!

I could have sworn the NUB had normal costs! lol!

Time to dash!

I still love you, GL. *smile*

so reducing nub ba cost and reducing nub cash rewards would be the less exploitable (selling for usd and such) option it would seem.

hmm, Looks like Ranger is right.

Don't worry, we know you're posting that to give only *you* an advantage over everyone else :P

NUB's that do stick around would then have less cash to get items that are useful to them. there are a few of us that stick around when the NUB gold rush ends.

Some just didn't even experience the NUB Bonus properly.

*cough* Flamey *cough*. :)

I know your plans you evil, evil man!!! You've already anticipated that someone will pass you at some point, and would like to NCB right back above them! Caught ya! </sarcasm>

And about the end of the NUB, I thought it was going to be like hitting a brick wall. I was wrong, at least a brick wall will give when you put enough force into it. Instead, it was like hitting a "cohesive megabrick" (We developed the name in chat a while back). Getting less money wasnt even an issue as far as i was concerned, but Koy was looking more and more distant getting only 8-11xp per minion each battle... (okay, this isnt an exaggerated number, just being selective as to where to pick it from, and decided more money time on my first day after losing the NUB and hiring a minion). Though, i was relieved to see my BA cost go from ~1100 to ~400 :)

Obviously Ranger is planning on using increased N*B's of those around him for himself. With more people getting higher, faster, he'll have more people to absorb into BR-like clans that he can ally with, therefore making it impossible for anybody to have positive clan points! AH HA! I've figured it out! </sarcasm>

I don't see why reducing the NUB cash bonus would be such a big deal. Money is easy enough to get as it is. If they have enough to buy all their BA and a little bit extra every day, they're fine. There are other ways to make money besides fighting, anyways, such as buying low and selling high, grabbing rare ammo out of auctions and selling for more, offering some sort of a service, participating in contests, etc.

Yeah, it would seem that N*B rates are too low. Especially the NCB. :/ NCB at 153% and NUB at 148% wouldn't seem that bad to me, but I'm not much of a numbers guy.

well i didn't necessarily mean to get rid of all their money. it should be feasible to figure out how much their ba costs though. make their ba free or at a fixed cost per refresh tier, then discount their current cash rewards by this amount. this wouldn't change things for those buying all their ba and actually trying to get to the top. it would only make a difference to those not using their ba and maximizing cash for other purposes, such as selling it.

oh, and btw it does appear the xp reward needs more tweaking as well.

wouldnt that just make it so that those attempting to maximize their money-making capabilities would just have a larger char to sell for USD at the end? :p

After reading about the money thing. I think the money should lower a bit. I mean anyone who has been around before the NUB used to have to work very hard to get a rare. Now if you have never had a NUB and don't spend USD it's very tough for the Vet to get a rare, because the NUB players have so much more cash.. Doesn't it seem wrong that in such a short amount of time they can not only catch up in mpr but can buy pretty much anything they want totally outfit a char with rares, and still have cb to sell or upgrade their equipment to crazy levels?

I mean maybe I wouldn't be so down about it if I had been given the option of deleting my long account and starting over and enjoying the benefits of the NUB.. Yeah that's it. LOL.

"Doesn't it seem wrong that in such a short amount of time they can not only catch up in mpr but can buy pretty much anything they want totally outfit a char with rares, and still have cb to sell or upgrade their equipment to crazy levels? "

Very good point, and I said it many times myself (Even during my NUB). But the reason this is the way it is, is so that the game doesnt become stagnant with top spots unreachable. Without the NUB money, they would be at a disadvantage gaining XP due to their low net worth compared to most around that level. So they would be at a handicap when it comes to taking any of the top spots. While the ones that were here longer deserve better, there's no way to do so without closing many doors to newer players.

most people regret wasting their NUB ;) so i dont really see a problem lol... except those who keep selling their money for $US... maybe 130% money 180% exp ? or something

I am happy with how I handled my NUB, although, in hindsight, i wish i had bought BA during my first month and a half. Rookie mistake, I'll shake it off next season (my NCB) :)

The problem a lot of us have with the NUB getting so much cash is the multi problem.

There have been many instances when a known player, some of them quite proficient at CB, makes a multi and rakes in the cash to sell for usd.

There have been numerous cases of people doing it. One of the most famous is someone who had 3-4 multis, sold out for USD then "came clean" and is still allowed to play.

A brand new players, using a NUB is not going to make tons of cash in the beginning as they experiment with strategies etc.. However, the experienced player can certain make quite a bit of cash (less now with the rate plummeting).

The idea of the NUB making less cash, but having their BA cost much lower is an outstanding idea. Then they do not have tons of cash to sell for usd, as a lot do when the NUB is over and they quit the game. With this scenario, they can still buy BA, stockpile enough CB to buy the rares they need.

But still, the % of xp bonus is too low for them to get to the top 5 or so as I thought the NUB was designed to do.

I was thinking about this yesterday; do we actually need to raise it? Mikel is an outstanding player, I don't think there is any argument there. He has been in the top three this week; and there's no doubt in my mind that if your own score Ranger wasn't so high currently, he could have been at number 1.

Ok, he probably has had every BA possible and not everyone fights as hard but I'm not sure a bonus player, NCB or NUB should be able to get as high as that. I'm not even sure top 5 should be easily accessible. Top ten maybe and then it should be down to the same hard work as everyone else.

Dunno, it really is hard to tell though. Anybody else going to take a fast run at the top anytime now? ;)

But... isn't that the point of the NUB/NCB?

I mean, the whole idea of it is that a dedicated player can have a shot at the top ranks due to the bonus. I agree that buying minions shouldn't be taken into account (because a normal players, even a NUB, could not really afford to buy three minions at the end of the period without USD). But even without this, (ie, even if Mikel had not bought his second minion) he would still be (in my opinion, although I don't know how the game is played at the top) in a similar position to where he is now. Perhaps not top three, but at least top seven or eight, I think.

And this is a _good_ thing. It is what the bonus is supposed to do. It isn't supposed to be an instant "Go Directly To The Top" button, it's supposed to be a bonus that, if used to its maximum potential, will take you to the top ten or twenty.

As for your argument, Ranger, you are correct if it is based upon the MPR of the top character; and if it is, then perhaps it needs adjusting. But personally, I think it is doing what it is supposed to do. I ask you a question: If Mikel was fighting for, I dunno, Hidden Agenda, would you be looking over your shoulder right now?

You might not be losing to him, but you probably would be pretty jumpy every time he made a minor strat / equipment change ;-)

And that's why I love this game!

Muon, I think it should give you the opportunity to get into the top ranks - I don't question that - but I don't think, even with hard work, that it should give you a ticket to the top slot.

Mikel is an extreme case, I know, so it's very difficult to gauge.

Anyway, the sun is shining in London so I'm not going to spend any more time thinking about this! I'm off to sit in the sun! ;)

My question posed is based upon Jon's statements that the NUB is to get you to 95% of the top mpr if you use all ba.

Whether or not I agree with that is not relevant to this thread. As it is now, the nub/ncb does fall short.

When jon originally exposed the NUB calculations to us, he made it clear that he chose 95% of the top MPR for a reason, and that value was not up for debate. So the only thing left is to determine if the current algorithm will get someone to 95%.

If the goal, then, is 2.5m MPR and Mikel made it to 2m MPR, I placed second at 1.6m MPR. I fought harder during the NCB than I ever have. Hidden Agenda had a 14.8% bonus for the most part, I kept 100% for a very long time, and fought close to 24/7 (though I did miss a few XP times and got a 4 day false start).

A big issue is that Jon nerfed the bonus due to the accrual rate change. He justified it by saying that now bonus-earning people can fight some arbitrary 19% more. People like Mikel and myself, however, were already fighting 24 hours a day, so we wound up losing a considerable amount of XP potential due to the slower BA rate.

If the reason Mikel has a 'shortfall' is the change to bonus level following the ba changes then the answer to Ranger's question is no - providing Jon has adjusted it correctly - the bonus isn't too low.

Mikel and NS, as NS points out, were taking every BA possible, so they were both (I hesitate to use the word but) penalized by the changes. I on the other hand have actually seen better growth since the change since I'm getting more more of my BA than before.

Players now can get every BA possible with less effort. A player starting their NCB today would be getting enough BA and therefore XP to place them in the right place at the end of the bonus period.

That is, if Jon has adjusted it's levels correctly. ;)

What I'm saying indirectly is that because of his (almost) unique situation we can't use Mikel as a yardstick in this. We need to find a new bonus starter today who knows how to fight and fight hard and track their progress.

In fact an easier answer to Ranger's question is 'No the NUB/NCB bonus is not too low now. Unless your names are Mikel and Nightstrike'. As far as I can see they are the only people around who have lost out with the changes, due to their using all the BA 24 hours previous to the change.

Anybody else who wasn't quite managing it have actually gained xp earning potential compared to before.

I think the point is that Mikel's MPR should be at least at 95% of Ranger's if we have interpreted Jon's intentions properly.

Whether he slowed down at the end due to the change Jon made is not overly relevant to the question at hand. 95% of the top MPR is supposed to be achievable if you play as "hard" as the top MPR user in the game.

Why is Mikel not there if he:
a) hardly missed a BA
b) received almost constant 15% clan bonus
c) played a large part of his NCB with 100% challenge bonus

Sounds "broken" to me...

...and let me repeat myself, he used an RoE for a large portion of his NCB, which should have put top MPR within his reach.

But he didn't get all his XP. When Jon adjusted the bonus it was because the likes of me were capable of getting all my BA easily. Not only that but I was getting nearly 20% more XP per battle than I had been. And, if I was, so was Mikel. Mikel who was already getting 110% - or however much - of his XP.

So Jon lowered the bonus amount. So the likes of me were pretty much back to what we had been before the BA changes. But Mikel on the other hand lost XP due to that because he was already getting all his BA.

What we need to work out is what Mikel has lost through the changes. Would that amount have brought him to 95%? Would a player starting their bonus today be able to reach 95%?

Mikel's situation is skewed. You can't make a decision based on it because of that.

In simple easy to understand terms:

My bonus is currently the equivalent to what it was before. Mikel's is worth less than it was before.

Try again JW, you're still not making sense.

The only reason for Jon to have adjusted the bonus is that be believed it was going to produce a char with more xp than the top. After the adjustment we see that even someone who fought all the BA they had, bought a minion, AND used a bonus XP item can't even come close to the top mpr. This in my mind directly requires a fix.

Look: Before Jon made the change to the Bonus Mikel was at the upper limits of what he could earn in terms of xp. The change to bonus means that Mikel now earns (approx) 7/8 of what he earned before the change to bonus.

Whereas following the adjustment I earn pretty much the same as before because I can now use more BA than before.

Which means that Mikel's bonus (regardless of the figure) has not been the full bonus for him.

He has not achieved the 95% BECAUSE HE HASN'T HAD HIS FULL USER BONUS FOR THE ENTIRE TIME.

Yes, I (now) follow that part...however I don't see that as having anything to do with things.

Sorry for shouting.

What that means is that we cannot tell if the bonus is broken/too low. Because the numbers are off.

He has had MORE than the current full bonus, he was at 168-170% for a large portion of his NCB.

Yes. He was. But since Jon lowered the bonus Mikel hasn't been on the equivalent amount. Because he was already using all his BA and more. The cut to the bonus did not affect most people negatively. Only a few. Mikel being one of them. He has lost XP.

/me points to his previous quote "Whether he slowed down at the end due to the change Jon made is not overly relevant to the question at hand"

But I'm not talking about slowdown. Mikel hasn't had his full XP for this whole time. He lost XP. So, if he lost XP how can he reach the 95% target?

Am I really not making any sense here? Shall I go to the pub instead?

Lol, I'm off for the day. Sorry if I'm not making sense. Maybe this only makes sense in my head....

;)

I thought you'd already been ;)

Anyway, I think it's more or less irrelevant to the original question. Either way Mikel should have been higher - he bought minions which on it's own should have taken him closer if not above Ranger. He's a long way short of 95% and shouldn't be despite the change imo.

Ok, I see why you're getting frustrated with this at least...

it's early so forgive my interpretation, Mikel lost more (gained nothing) from the change because he was fighting all his BA previously. In addition to this the drop in the NCB caused him to gain less from his now easier to get BA.

None of that trumps the argument that the bonus is too low. Yes he might not be the best measure of how off the bonus is, but it is an indication that something is wrong.

Ah. Thanks Nov, I thought I was going mad for a moment. Lol. I'm not arguing that there isn't a problem with the bonus. I'm saying that Mikel's case isn't necessarily the best way to judge.

There's a drink with my name on it now. Bye. :)

Of course Mikel is the best way to judge.

Just look at someone now doing what Mikel did. Using a ROE for as long, getting all his BA in, buying all his BA exp during xp time.

With the current bonus as it is, that new person will fall far shorter then even Mikel is now. Given the fact Mikel missed hardly any BA when the regeneration made it so he had to log in every 4 hours.

Well, my question is..

Since Mikel is using a 2 minion team, and Ranger is using a 4 minion team, could that not make up some of the difference in MPR?

Even with a RoE, a 4 minion team should be getting more XP. Over a 4 month period, it could equal out to 400k Exp.

in cb2 there are no bonuses to xp for multi minion teams, that went the way of the dodo and cb1 if i am not mistaken.

No additional experience for multi-minion teams in CB2. Never has been.

No, the only thing that this gives us to be certain of, is that Mikel's bonus is broken. But as I've been saying, Mikel's bonus is not 'worth' the same as mine for instance or any other bonus player who wasn't using all their BA prior to Jon's changes. Mikel has literally lost that bit of the NCB - for every fight he has fought since Jon changed the bonus level. How much XP does that add up to?

quite a bit, I noticed a dramatic decrease in my bonus after the change(s). Which is why I went ahead and hired a minion.

OB wouldn't mind a boost to his NCB. xD

I disliked the reduction in the first place, it was another way that hardcore NCB users were penalized. I understood it's to counter that new ease of BA burning, however I don't think weaker fighters should be the measure we use.

The bonus had already been lowered a number of times, and the char used to judge it being overpowered often used an RoE for at least some portion of the bonus time.
This has negated the usefulness of the RoE, and made it a requirement if you want to see anything like 95% of top MPR. A user buying all BA and using an RoE should top the top.

"I will elaborate.

2x rewards, 1/2 BA means equal outcomes all things being equal.

But because you now only have to log on half as often, it's easier to use more BA than before. So I'm estimating that on average, someone starting now will be able to use 19% more BA than someone who started in Jan 05 -- or someone who started NCB 4 months ago. So the bonus needs to be adjusted downwards. (The inverse of 1.19 is roughly 0.84.)"


That's from Jon's changelog about the bonus reduction. That change - as I've been banging on about all day - simply put me back to where I was before the BA changes. But Mikel, on the other hand, who was getting all his BA lost the equivalent of 19% BA's worth of xp for the past three weeks.

I'll stick by what I said earlier. It's not the bonus that is broken, just Mikel's and anybody else who was using all 24 hours worth of BA.

The bonus was set based on users who burned EVERY ba they could, it should stay that way.

I don't think it's fair that hardcore players were penalized; but it's the path of least resistance in some ways. The many or the few. It's a difficult decision for Jon to make.

The top MPR players have always been more likely to burn midnight BA, Ranger did, Mantra the multi certainly did, I don't think Sut even sleeps...

So to slash the bonus means we'll see people coming up about 20% short of the 95% they are supposed to get...Mikel is where he's at because of a minion buy, and RoE use, without those factors he'd be well below 2 mil.

I have never put in "night blending" shifts ever since SteveH and I were battling it out way, way back (Spring 2005) for most battles challenged (I still had Cougars then and was going 24x7 for about 2-3 months). Never since.

Even during my NCB with Hubbell I was only getting in 19-20 hours of BA per day (7-8 hours of straight sleep a night), but bought every single BA on just about every single day. I can't remember what percentage of the top I finished at.

I also was non-clanned for the first half and was in a ~9-10% bonus clan singleton the second half.

I used a named RoE almost the entire way.

Looking at my historical graph, I ended around 1.4 million MPR around July 1st. At that time, Koy looks like he was around 1.8 million MPR. I think Koy was the top MPR at that time, not sure. 1.4 into 1.8 put me at 78% of the top MPR. If I had clanned in a top clan all the way, I would have been around 1.5 million, probably, putting me at 83%.

Again, I did not play in the middle of the night, so let's say I lost 4 hours a day BA equivalent. The BA I did burn (accrued plus purchased) then represented 20 + 12 = 32 hours a day. An extra 4 a day would have increased my final MPR by about 1/8th, or 12.5 %. 1.5 million times 1.125 = 1.6875 million.

Comparing that final figure to Koy's 1.8 million yields 93.75%. That would represent me doing something similar to Mikel, WITHOUT buying a minion.

Sounds like I got my NCB "money's worth".

Sounds like Mikel will end around 80-85% of the top MPR, and that's with buying a 150K MPR minion.

I don't recall any bonus changes from the time I ran up as opposed to Mikel, other than the BA accrual change and subsequent bonus reduction.

I have to say that, if Mikel has been playing like everyone is saying (substantial RoE usage, 24x7 fighting, maximized rewards), he should be beyond where he is at now WITHOUT having hired a minion.

Well I hardly ever missed any BA, for for the first 3 months and I used a RoE with an occasional change in gear only to try something out. One thing I do remember is not being able to login due to the server being down, and even then on one that it was down all day, I managed to get on about 5 minutes before the next day's ba became available and purchased it all before it went back down, that was the closest call that I had to missing any of my purchasable ba. The server problems was the biggest killer to me. A couple hours is fine, but when it was flowing into the 8-10 hour ranges it really hurt.

Man...guess there's no chance for me to hit 2M MPR then ;) since I started off with around 600 BA (instead of the full 1600) and have missed probably close to 2 full days of BA since then due to RL circumstances....=(

Just had a random thought... Mikel did get within 5% rank-wise. As in, he made it to the top 5% of people ranked by mpr.

Like, let's say that the top MPR is 3m, the second is 2m, the third is 1m, the 250th is 750k, and there are 5000 people ranked total. 5% of top in terms of pure MPR would be 5% of 3m, or 2850000. 5% of 5000, however, would be 4750. So if you make it within the top 250, ie, make it above 750k MPR, then this would constitute 5%.

Yes, I know that based on how Jon explained it, it's not how it's supposed to work. But it's still an interesting way to think about it.

Aye, that is one way to look at it...*grins*