Thoughts on the new gloves-Strategy thread! (in General)
May 27 2007 12:24 PM EDT
Well they are out now.
The upgrade costs are very close to those of the AG so cost should not be an issue in deciding which to use.
So, are NS better then AG?
My thoughts are for a mage with a base decay, of course they are. Another 15% to a base decay is not going to matter vs decent AMF or even DM. But 15% off a 1.0 AMF will matter quite a bit.
Now for the other DD spells.
I just do not know. The NS are only good vs AMF characters, where AG are good vs all characters. Therefore you lose 1/3 or so effectiveness from the NS (I assume about 1/3 the characters in play are DM over AMF).
Do the NS actually make you take a lot less AMF vs AG?
Do the NS do significantly less damage to your opponents vs AG?
For CoC, the NS may help a lot decreasing the AMF backlash since CoC already does tons of damage.
Those are the main questions in my mind.
BTW can an admin or Jon add NS to the dictionary?
May 27 2007 12:26 PM EDT
Do the NS actually make you take a lot less AMF vs AG?
Duh, of course they do. I meant to type for the loss in damage you get from not using AG, does the lower AMF backlash make up for it.
"BTW can an admin or Jon add NS to the dictionary? "
May 27 2007 12:36 PM EDT
i propose we call them NSC... ne way from the way i see it based on the AMF fomula... normally your spells would be larger then the AMF so they are using this formula
If X<1 (that is, AMF weaker than DD) then effect is X^(0.7)/2
hence... 1^0.7/2 = 0.5 correct me if im wrong...
so infact a +40 AMF could safely take out almost all AMF effect
May 27 2007 2:15 PM EDT
I think its less than "They're better than AG because of blah blah" and more of "They're both good in their own ways and one would do well with either depending on who you fight against". The new gloves will always do better than equal AGs when against a AMF. Its a tradeoff, better against some or good against all. Kinda like the exbow/axbow tradeoff, better than the other against some, but both useful.
May 27 2007 2:21 PM EDT
But unfortunately one does not switch gloves between fight lists.
I would like to see how much better the NS is then the AG vs AMF characters.
We know the AG are far better then NS vs DM characters.
So does the benefit of NS over AG vs AMF characters overcome the AG>NS vs DM ones?
And again can an admin please put the new glove abbreviation in the dictionary.
May 27 2007 3:47 PM EDT
For my strategy they are pretty much useless. I'd say about 150-200k damage less for the wearer. But a strong AMF vs. my MM is still much more effective as my GA vs. a strong weapon. 2mil NSs with +13 reduce the AMF effect by -0.12 (vs. AGs +12).
A big AMF is still too strong (a .30 AMF reflects about 50-60% damage o.O). Small AMF = not really necessary(who cares about <200k HP when the opponent certainly does not have DM to reduce AS). And like you say, AMF is not that popular, and AGs work well against all opponents. So its like RoBF and HF - a minority item. It is nice to block a small anti Decay AMF but I prefer my AGs. Too bad I spent 3mil to find out its crap :D
Side note, a huge request for a more detailed battle result page.
Decay, Decay, Decay, Decay.
I like them. That's definately not because my team has 3 Decays, though... :/
May 27 2007 4:38 PM EDT
If anyone has +14 AG (unnamed or named) to loan me for, say, an hour, I'll test out with both. But my initial testing, results of which can be found in the Changelog thread, showed that NS worked wonders more for me than the AGs I was previously using - that's for a CoC mage, though. I don't really need the extra damage from the AGs against non-AMF users, so there's no downside for me.
I think these gloves might be really useful for junctioning on a familiar, since you get 150% of the effect. With a pair that is +14 you are looking at a 21% AMF reduction, which is pretty substantial. IF could be running around doing some serious damage, if seekers don't get to them first :D
HG: that 150% is ONLY for STR and DEX...
oh...well then I guess I retract my previous statement :D
May 28 2007 4:09 PM EDT
So the gloves do affect the backlash AS WELL AS the power of your spell vs. the AMF quell... I can't remember what I said before about the new gloves, but yeah, Decay is the largest benefactor. Also, I have to think that CoC can use every little bit of help it can get, and more the NS than the AG. CoC is already spread and deadly, and the biggest thing there is simply survival. So, I think NSs may have the edge there as well.
As for MM and FB -- those are quick-kill spells. I see it as a very, very close race, with AGs having the edge there.
I was expecting the NS upgrade curve to be a goodly amount less steep than tha of the AGs... With it being closer to even, it could very well mean these are meant to be a solid Decay buff.
Well, I'm a bit confused. They seem to be a niche item.
Supporter items generally seemed to be fairly broad: any tank could utilise a mage shield effectively (though they are generally the preserve of walls now), every tank worth their salt used a VB until recently, now it's a VB vs Morg debate, every NCB uses an RoE, every character in the game should wear a HoC, and so on.
The Jig is ... interesting, in that it could be awesome but it tends to be useless for anything other than a meatshield because UC is so underpowered up top. And that leaves the NS's. Which can really only be used by CoC mages (as for decay mages, I think the percentage of characters that use a decay mage as their main damage dealer is surely... negligible).
So, it just seems to me that this is a "Boost CoC" item. But if Jon wanted to do that, why not just increase the base effect of CoC by 10 percent or so - that would give an AMF advantage as well as a damage advantage (and as Sut pointed out, CoC needs any advantage it can get).
So I'm a bit confused. I think we will probably see either a dramatic increase in NS AMF blocking (3% instead of 1% perhaps) or some other perk (+1% DD or maybe HP? for every enchantment point added perhaps).
I hope we do, anyway :-/
"(a .30 AMF reflects about 50-60% damage o.O)"
A 0.30 AMF effect blocks 30% of the damage and inflicts 12% of the DD effect on the caster.
With +15 gloves, the AMF will block 26% of the damage and inflict 11% of the DD effect on the caster.
What would be interesting would be if the NS reduced the effective DD level (or effect, whichever) by 1% per point for purposes of calculating the AMF effect. How would that differ from the current way of doing things?
I don't think the new gloves work quite like that, Ranger's AMF on my familiar went from .28 to .17 with +11...
Oh.. well then..
A 0.30 AMF effect would drop to blocking 15% of the damage and reflecting 6% of the DD effect. I still don't see where the 50 to 60% comes into play.
I think he's saying that at .30 AMF, if in a round he inflicts 2M damage with MM, then he will receive ~1M damage back. Which is about correct I guess - 30% ~= 1/3, so out of 3M damage, 2/3 is done to the opponent and 1M to himself.
I could be wrong, of course - I personally have never studied my own battles vs AMF results intensively enough to comment.
May 29 2007 4:21 PM EDT
Well, I like them. I use CoC, and really... I like them. I'm a bit surprised though. I read what PoisoN said, and he makes a strong point. Against weak AMFs, they are only a small aid. It's against the huge one's I notice a big difference. But, even then, I still lose. So, eh, what do I know? My character is rather skewed so it's hard to know how well they balance. But I do know, that I currently have a +10 AG and +10 NS. And the NS is equipped.
May 29 2007 4:55 PM EDT
This is the result I get when I fight with a NS(+10) and with a AG(+14)
With the AG:
Lyge cast Antimagic Field on Belle-Ange (0.30)
Belle-Ange takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (66714)!
DD Cast / Avg Damage 4 / 60,450
and my CoC minion even die.
But with the NS:
Lyge cast Antimagic Field on Belle-Ange (0.22)(what I don't understand is why it's not -10%)
Belle-Ange takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (43049)!(I get -20k damage on myself, witch is very good, enough to make me survive)
And the best of all this is that I even do more damage with the NS(vs AMF users) then with the AG
DD Cast / Avg Damage 4 / 75,741 (+15k :] )
I really love these new gloves, they made CoC what CoC should be.
Since I started CB, I fought for a change like this, and it's here. So thanks again Jon, and all CoC or Decay minions should get those gloves, they are just better. Btw, I didn't wear a ToE while doing my test.
May 29 2007 6:56 PM EDT
Big Smith's Ex cast Antimagic Field on Chaos's familiar (0.33)
Chaos's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (167428)!
Chaos's familiar's Magic Missile hit Kano-san 
= 54% damage
Chaos's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (191346)!
Chaos's familiar's Magic Missile hit Kano-san 
= 60% damage
Chaos's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (215264)!
Chaos's familiar's Magic Missile hit Jesun 
= 24% damage
I'm sure there is a mathematical reason for this, but nevertheless it means 60% backslash damage.
May 29 2007 9:57 PM EDT
Poison, backlash is a constant damage -- are you comparing it to damage done? That figure would not have much meaning, since the damage you do to others is radically randomized while backlash is constant (only adjusted for the 30/20/10 ranged factors).
You will find that every tile you fight Dixie Cousins you have the exact same backlash...
Sorry if I am insulting your intelligence or have missed your point...?
And you were hitting Kano-san which has Endurance, on top of the AMF reduction.
May 30 2007 5:55 AM EDT
The key point is that a strong AMF can still reflect a lot of damage. No matter if you reduce it with expensive NS for a few percent. And so they are not very effective, at least for my MM minions and certain opponents.
May 30 2007 12:46 PM EDT
I agree with you, NWO. A somewhat weak supporter item this time, especially as compared to something like the HoC (that was a supporter item, wasn't it?)
May 30 2007 12:52 PM EDT
I really feel that, at the current cost to upgrade these, they should give a 2% benefit per enchantment level.
OB feels the same way deifeln, he's even offering booty-dances for such a change, so because you suggested it, you're first :P and yes sut, the HoC was suppor-terrific
May 30 2007 1:43 PM EDT
I agree, either a shallower upgrade curve or more % reduction per point. They are anti-AMF specific, so the offset should be that they are better at it.
See that? Just mention the possiblility of an OB booty-dance, and everyone comes running! :P
May 31 2007 3:15 PM EDT
Wow! I was winning against The Fallen because my AMF was killing him with an effect of (.15). A pair of NSC was equipped and the AMF effect is now (0).
Does this mean that the equipped pair of NSC are +15 or higher?
Highest pair owned are a pair of +14s by OB...
May 31 2007 3:21 PM EDT
Ok... CoC was also retrained to FB. Maybe more XP was put into it.
Regardless, lets say my AMF has an effect of (.10) on a minion. Said minion equips a pair of NSC (+10). Does this reduce the AMF effect to (0), or does it reduce it to (.09)?
May 31 2007 3:23 PM EDT
take 1.00 as max effect... so +10 = 0.1
May 31 2007 3:25 PM EDT
Yes, that is obvious.
But what if the effect is (.5). Does NSC(+10) reduce that effect to (.4) or to (.45)?
At least one person on my fightlist needs to learn that NSs on a multi-minion FB team is a bad idea :P
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