New spin on my idea for removing the bonuses (in General)
For ages I've been campaigning for removal of the Top Ten exemption and for changing the way XP is gained, so that the higher you go, the less you earn. Making everyone below you able to catch you, with equivalent effort. And removing the need for any sort of character/user bonus.
But instead of limiting the XP gained, how about keeping the spirit of the bonuses, by increasing everyone elses rewards?
All charcaters would receive an XP bonus based on thier MPR compared to the highest MPR in the game. Starting large, and getting increasingly smaller until you hit the top spot, in which case you lose whatever remains of the bonus. This would mean the MPR would have to fight just that little bit more, or gain just a little better rewards than the number two MPR in order to stay at the top.
To keep the flavour of the existing bonuses, the curve could be made to be generous for a ratio estimated to 4 months of a characters life, then tail off rapidly, to not force as much inflation into the game.
What do you think? Naysmiths welcome. :)
June 21 2007 3:16 AM EDT
So essentially the bonus would be like a giant challenge bonus, but instead of fighting high to achieve the full *100%* (or whatever) you have to be a certain distance from the top MPR?
I like it, but it what happens if you retrain? Wouldn't you then get rewarded after that for the retrain? Unless retrain changes as well....
June 21 2007 3:19 AM EDT
:) interesting idea... kinda like it
You would still have a seperate Challenge Bonus, to reward you for your Targets. But it would work something like that. ;)
I'd have to think about retrain penalites. ;)
June 21 2007 7:01 AM EDT
Now ThAT is interesting! Nice GL!
Sounds like welfare... get a bonus for being ranked low.
The main thing, though, is that it doesn't achieve anything. If the bonus is based on your rank, then as you move up, the bonuse lowers. So this goes back to my speed limit analogy. If two cars are travelling, one an hour ahead of the other, first through a 65mph zone and then through a 25mph zone, does the distance between them ever change? Sure does. Does the *time* difference ever change? Nope. They're always still an hour apart. So basically, you can never gain ground on anyone ahead of you, since you are always slaved to the same acceleration curve.
June 21 2007 8:54 AM EDT
Sorry, GL, but I think he nailed that one.
That's where fight selection, clan bonuses, amount of BA and challenge bonuses come into effect.
Everyone is on the same curve *for being able to catch the top spot*. After that, you wanna advance past the guy in front of you, fight more than he does, fight higher.
This changes nothing from how CB works *now*, it only allows everyone to have the abilito catch the top dog, without the need for specific bonuses.
June 21 2007 9:12 AM EDT
GL, I think NS meant that as soon as you catch up to someone higher than you, you'll have the same bonus and then you'll fall back down.
June 21 2007 9:23 AM EDT
That's the whole point, no? To have a large group of people always battling for the top instead of one top dog (no offense Ranger it's better to see competition)
June 21 2007 9:30 AM EDT
It doesn't sit well with me penalising the top guy so everyone else can catch up.
I'd rather see tournies in place with a separate BA (as Jon has already mentioned) to allow competition where everyone has an equal chance to finish at the top week on week, or month on month w/e the format may be.
That's just it G. ;) This way, the Top Dog isn't being penalised, he plays just the same as he always would. ;)
It's competition, without the need for NUB/NCB. ;)
Not everyone will be able to catch the top dog anyway, you still need to burn more BA than he does.
(Please replace he with she if it really matters to you! :P)
"This changes nothing from how CB works *now*, it only allows everyone to have the abilito catch the top dog, without the need for specific bonuses."
No, not at all. The way CB works now is that your bonus is based on time. Your bonus is fixed at a certain amount over the course of 4 months, so it has different outcomes for different people. It allows you to catch up to someone because your 65mph zone is different than the first guy through, and you don't get to the 25mph zone at the same point as the guy in front. If your bonus was inversely proportional to rank, then you would have the exact same progression as everyone else. Then, rank would be the same as join date.
June 21 2007 10:18 AM EDT
Just would like to point out, "amount of BA burned" is not really a limiting factor any more. Getting "only" 7-8 hours of sleep is not really that much of a sacrifice to get all BA burned.
BA costs would be some interesting math...clanfighting would be reserved for the people close enough to the top to not have to pay 2k a BA.
June 21 2007 11:00 AM EDT
NS: I think you're missing the point. Yes, there would be 65 and 25 zones, but not by join date. The 65 zone is for noobs, per say, those with low ranks. Their speed limit decreases as they get closer to the top, eventually bottoming out their speed at 25, when they reach the top. The people who already were at the top were doing 25 the whole time. This allows everyone to catch up if they fight the same (and have effective strats). And yes, BA costs would be a huge issue.
I'm not missing the point at all. I know full well what GL is suggesting, because I suggested it myself on several occassions.
Regarding the fact that a curent top has been doing 25mph the whole time... though it's a good point, it doesn't change the redundancy of the situation. Let's sidestep that for a minute, however, and look at two newcomers. If person A starts today and goes a certain distance, and person B starts a week later and goes a certain distance, how can B ever catch up to A, let alone over take A?
An even better example than the spped limit zones would be a conveyor belt. Ever watch a conveyor belt wiht multiple stages? The only difference between stages with varying speeds is the proximity of each parcel to each other one, not the order in which they appear.
June 21 2007 12:22 PM EDT
Yes, except the person who started first slows down faster. When he hits 25 then the person who started after him will still be doing 30 until he catches up.
June 21 2007 12:43 PM EDT
Why don't we just give every NUB that joins a 2.5M MPR character and call it a day?
Jon even said characters are crap anyway. Then no NUB/NCB is needed.
Instead of making the top spot something to strive for, something that takes effort to get and keep, let us just give a random player a 3M MPR character?
In almost every other MMORG, one has to put in time and effort to get to the top levels. Here it seems, one can quickly take 2 1/2 years of playing and compress it into 4 months to get the nearly the same results.
Personally I believe characters are the best point of the game. One can equip hundred of millions of NW on a lower MPR character and still lose to a lot of people above them.
In games like WOW, the time playing determines how fast you grow and how high level one gets, hjowever now in CB, everyone can get the same BA in. So, penalize the top players, let the lower level players grow much faster.
Whatever.... No solution is going to be right and fair to everyone. Whatever Jon decides, it is his game and we just enjoy it.
Personally this topic is so last year and the year before.
June 21 2007 12:49 PM EDT
I actually like that idea ranger. Lets give a random person a 3million MPR character.
Power in CB2 to the guys who spent the most time training their chars and have been doing so for years, no less.
Power in tournaments to those who have the skill to do so, and as many times as said skill permits it.
I believe this is acceptable.
June 21 2007 12:59 PM EDT
i think jon should make some "god" characters so that high up people can have someone to fight lol ;) instead of the 0% penalty to fight down... would be more interesting
NS, how does B catch A now? Both would have the same NUB bonus to XP.
"Jon even said characters are crap anyway. Then no NUB/NCB is needed."
Huh? Jon said what?
"In almost every other MMORG, one has to put in time and effort to get to the top levels. Here it seems, one can quickly take 2 1/2 years of playing and compress it into 4 months to get the nearly the same results."
Whoa, Nelly! Didn't you just post a few weeks ago that the bonus isn't enough? Mikel did all he could, and only made it to whatever % of the top, and he's the major exception, well above average. So that would mean that you CAN'T compress 4 months of playing into 2 1/2 years....
(I think I said that backwards.....)
"NS, how does B catch A now? Both would have the same NUB bonus to XP. "
In a rat race, one is always devoured.....
June 22 2007 6:25 PM EDT
I may be misreading GLs suggestion, but in his scenario surely the speed limit thing is not true, in that if the bonus is dependent upon the difference between your MPR and the top MPR, it is always changing - ie you will *always* have a better bonus than someone ahead until your MPRs are equivalent? (and someone starting a week later will have a trifle bigger bonus than you will ever have had)
Or am I missing something?
Nor is this entirely equivalent to handing someone a 3M MPR character - someone who has been playing the game longer should have a lot higher NW than a noobie (specially if the NUB is being scrapped), and as we all know NW wins every time.
Skill and experience too will play their part (otherwise everyone on the same MPR/PR would have the same score).
So.... why not?
June 22 2007 6:31 PM EDT
It seems to me that even with the boosted growth rate, you'll only catch up if you start playing as much as the top player. Even then, you'll only catch up to very close to him, and you'll only stay there as long as you continue to play as hard as him.
However, this would cause a huge cluster of players up in one section of score - not a bad thing at all by any means, as far as gameplay goes, but it seems like it might make things one heck of a lot more difficult if one decided to make a new character. There's probably other complications as well to it that I haven't thought out either.
June 22 2007 6:53 PM EDT
OB: Dunno - I guess it depends on how often the bonus is calculated. Often enough (unlikely) and you will get a different bonus every time you fight.
June 22 2007 10:16 PM EDT
NW does not win every time... just most of the time :) some time MPR + Strat wins
Thanks VC, that's spot on. ;)
"It seems to me that even with the boosted growth rate, you'll only catch up if you start playing as much as the top player. "
And who the hell thinks you should over take the top player by fightng less than they did? ;)
June 23 2007 8:06 PM EDT
Right, I'm saying that's a good thing. =P You can't catch up to him unless you play as much. It was a support thing.
None of this would be as necessary if the Random bonus in rewards was tightened up at the same time that we got 2x's rewards.
June 24 2007 1:20 AM EDT
NS, your first point only applies to how CB is now. With GL's suggestion, it would be like one car at 65, and the other car starts at 70 and slowly decelerates the closer it gets to the leading car. Just pointing that out, not really liking this idea too much myself.
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