Staves! (in General)

MissingNo June 22 2007 10:51 PM EDT

"The Istari also carried staves, which seem to be tied to their ability to wield magic"

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, but, come on! We've got the whole Lord of the Rings theme thing goin' here, except that mages can't have staffs?

Q: Mage staffs would be cool to augment magical power!
A: private explained why this is dumb with more patience than I would:
Tanks: Can become more powerful than mages, but cost lots of money to maintain. Mages: Tend to be cheaper than tanks, but also tend to be less powerful (and less able to deal with armor penalties)
I think this provides a nice balance between spending money on your chars and spending exp on them; I see no reason to change it.

That doesn't make any sense to me. How would adding staves upset the balance between money and experience? Just because you have the option doesn't mean you have to pour all your money into a mage staff. It's more limiting by not having staffs, and it completely goes against the LotR theme of the game.

Miandrital June 22 2007 11:05 PM EDT

I'm all for it, as long as mages have to train Str, Dex, upgrade their weapons X and +. Oh, and evasion should also affect them normally.

Other than that, staves would be a great idea.

MissingNo June 22 2007 11:18 PM EDT

Yes and despite the fact that tanks have to train ST and DX and upgrade +s and Xs, they're still more powerful. After a certain point, it's insensible for a mage to put any more money into their equipment, so they can only work with experience from that point on. Not tanks though, since X upgrades don't increase, so you could keep increasing the damage for small amounts of money.

MissingNo June 22 2007 11:19 PM EDT

Oh, and I remember reading that mages are supposed to be physically stronger than men too. Not like it matters though, because I don't see how it'd take physical strength or dexterity to use magic.

A Lesser AR of 15 [Red Permanent Assurance] June 22 2007 11:32 PM EDT

The virus must be consumed by the flames!
Will add a log to this fire...
What would the staves enhance and penalize? +1% DD, +1% ED&EO each plus? Works like an AoF while nuking personal skills, such as evasion, for the wearer?
Do we need a new mage item or to improve on what we have already?

MissingNo June 22 2007 11:48 PM EDT

I don't care what it does, we should just have something to put in the weapon slot for ourselves. Because in the Tolkien legendarium, mages' powers are tied in with their staves.

Mythology June 22 2007 11:53 PM EDT

Good idea, though if we're talking about this from a tolkien equipment type arugment, *cough* RINGS, *Cough* *cough*

xDanELx June 23 2007 12:07 AM EDT

Maybe staves that aren't weapons as they don't really use it for fighting. They can be considered as weapons but rather than use it for fighting, its used to augment some powers, similar to Corns (including expensive upgrades), and augments very particular skills (e.g. Staff of Flame +0.5% to Fireball per '+', Staff of Darkness -1% to opponents Dex per '+').

To make it interesting, you can buy an un-powered staff from Jon for a certain USD cost, and then require it to be forged in a certain way/timing in order to grant it a particular power. :) Maybe even sacrifice a rare mage item to get a more powerful effect or something.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] June 23 2007 12:12 AM EDT

this is a bad idea unless the staff just adds a flat rate, not based on the x or +. any other method of staffs would make them just like tanks and their weapons.

QBOddBird June 23 2007 12:16 AM EDT

I agree with Pit.

Pretty much, the only reason I'd want a staff for a mage would simply be...because I'd want the mage to have a staff to channel his magic through. That's pretty much it. Just the item, no effect.

However, I like the thought of my CoC minion charging the enemy headfirst with globules of frozen energy in the palms of his hands until he reaches his opponent and then freezing him with the CoC blast and headbutting him, shattering his brittle frozen body into a million pieces!

Not that that's anything like what happens in the play-by-play, but heck, it's cooler than using a staff. =)

MissingNo June 23 2007 12:39 AM EDT

I like Danel's idea. And yeah, even if staffs didn't do anything, they should be there simply to make the game accurate to the legendarium. Hell, you could make it non-upgradeable and make it have like a 50% chance of your DD doing critical damage and 50% chance of your DD backfiring.

Hi im Jake June 23 2007 12:53 AM EDT

i don't know if anyone suggested this since i did not read every post but how about different staffs to augment different spells and have them like weapons (also forge able) the more power full the better they help you in the long run. plus you could have lessers that are more cheap but don't help as much. so not everyone can afford one as a new player, like i couldn't afford a ELB as a newb but i could afford a long bow

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] June 23 2007 12:56 AM EDT

Just make DDs dependant to equipping a staff, or stave.

No such weapon, no DD. No bonus of malus. You just need one to cast.

AdminShade June 23 2007 3:40 AM EDT

Tank situation:

Tank needs ST and DX to actually be able to do damage COMBINED with the weapon, which needs money be put in to keep on track of the damage.

Mage only needs the DD spell to do damage. When you'd add a staff which would add to the DD spell, then it should have a very small influence to guard it from being overpowered: in Danel's example a 0.5%% to DD per + would make a 25% bonus when having the staff as +50 (which wouldn't be expensive at all)

So a 25% bonus as opposed to a tank who needs to put more and more money to keep on track of the damage...

xDanELx June 23 2007 3:47 AM EDT

Shade, as I've mentioned, it can have an upgrade cost similar to a Corn (i.e. getting it to +10 will cost you 6 mil, and the enchantment gives you what, 5% increase? Thats not overpowered (I think). Remember, you are using the staff as something to channel casting, not to fight. So I wouldn't mind a x1 +8 staff for example.

This way, its easier to "fix" problems with those who are complaining that MM or CoC are underpowered, sort of. :)

Dark Dreky June 23 2007 3:48 AM EDT

So what if a tank needs ST and DX? They can just rely on the size of their weapon to do their damage. Against a mage they're getting 4 hits a round with the DX gap... mages don't get double, triple, or quad hits ever. Ever. Tankblenders seem to argue that there is some sort of XP dillution because they need to train more things than a mage. Believe me, I would train other things than HP, DD, and Evasion on a mage if I could... but I can't within all reason.

I think that staves would be a good idea... they wouldn't ever swing in melee and add some sort of DD or skill boost (a skill boost might require that the minion have a DD trained or something). Maybe it wouldn't have to add to DD or skills maybe it would augment the DD itself in different ways. Maybe a flat damage increase like Beleg's gloves. Just shooting my late night thoughts out.

AdminShade June 23 2007 3:52 AM EDT

I'm not talking about the would be XP dillution, I am talking about the fact that a tank without a decent weapon doesn't do any damage.

Another fact is that a tank really _does_ rely on ST for the damage. If you increase your ST 4 times, you will do 2 times the damage. The change from 500k ST to 2mil ST however is quite costly and will only get you so far...

xDanELx June 23 2007 3:55 AM EDT

Oh, and the staff cannot be forged by the blacksmith. Even better, if possible, it can't be rented out (like a tat) or loaned (or like a tat, expensive to loan). You can do a transfer but then you're risking losing it.

QBOddBird June 23 2007 7:05 AM EDT

*smiles* You forgot the USD disclaimer, Shade!

"...unless your weapon has so much USD pumped into it that it breaks the game mechanics."


AdminShade June 23 2007 7:48 AM EDT

xDaNeLx, can't be forged or can't be smithed?

OB, indeed

xDanELx June 23 2007 11:42 AM EDT

@Shade. Smithed. The idea is to be able to forge it but you need to do it yourself as much as possible, not even getting others to forge it for you, or make it so expensive that it is not practical to loan it to someone to be forged. A possibility is to make it expensive to loan, and then any transfer to another player will cause it to lose a certain amount of NW.

So basically the staves should be so attuned to just one user, or something to that effect. Not sure how else to explain or implement that.

BootyGod June 23 2007 12:18 PM EDT


If I see a staff, I want to see a flat bonus to DD. Like... Elven Staff 59x1 +1, give a inherent PTH, and the + would upgrade like an AG, but maybe even more limited. Like... at 1 mil NW +5 and it gives a +3% to all trained DD on a minion.

Gives bonus to DX and skills and enchantments, blah blah, making it useful for everything but heavy tanks. RoS tank teams could use it, because even though damaging, the huge amount of boosting would be nice.

/me shrugs

AdminShade June 23 2007 12:37 PM EDT

Godwolf, why have a staff which gives a bonus to PTH when you are a mage?

BootyGod June 23 2007 12:40 PM EDT

Make it useful to evasion and enchanters on teams that use GS/Haste.

And that way they could still hit and not worry about the heavily reduced +

AdminShade June 23 2007 12:45 PM EDT

An enchanter wouldn't attack, and if it would then the damage would be quite low.
Why a PTH bonus when you'd need a DX bonus for an Evasion bonus?
Heavily reduced +? with a +5 you can't hit a decent tank... if you would be able to, then your weapon is overpowered.

bartjan June 23 2007 1:00 PM EDT

Just buy yourself a Tulwar. name it "2x4" and equip it on a mage.

Problem solved :)

MissingNo June 23 2007 1:33 PM EDT

Wow Bart, you're HILARIOUS. I can't believe how FUNNY you are. A 2x4, oh my GOD, I'm gonna die because you're SO FUNNY.

th00p June 23 2007 1:39 PM EDT

*th00p looks around dumbfounded*

What's his problem?

QBOddBird June 23 2007 1:40 PM EDT

Errr, Jugs? Something seems to be wrong with your caps lock button. Looks like it is sporadically jamming...might wanna look into that.

MissingNo June 23 2007 2:08 PM EDT

My CaPslOcK is WOrkinG just FinE.

AdminNightStrike June 23 2007 2:18 PM EDT

Using a weapon slot instead of an armor slot for an item that boosts DD would be an interesting idea, simply beacuse it wouldn't add PR.......................

BluBBen June 23 2007 3:22 PM EDT

Can't the mage staff give the wearer a like 50% chance to double hit with his spell or something?

Unappreciated Misnomer June 23 2007 3:56 PM EDT

i dont think they should have to trained alot of str, but dex sure, a staff shouldnt be used as a melee weapon as far as a mage is concerned, they have MAGIC!

i would like to see a series of staves

a decay staff- limited in its abilities, only serves to add a little bit more damage to the fight over, forging is limited and its dmg is relative to the lvl its being used at only if the x is brought up high enough, meaning would work like a tattoo in the sense that you can BS or forge millions into this staff and it wont work any better than something meant for its level

+ crit chance on spell damage- giving the caster a x%(say 1%) per +, could be applied strictly to damage spells, but if it could be applied to all spells in general could mean more interesting fights, a chance for AS to give more health and give more variation to in a fight. chance for chance for more ST = chance for more dmg, and so on, could work for an entire group or preferably for the caster itself only, the GA of the receiver gets a chance to retaliate with the same chance of crit. prob would never be forged over 15-20+ as the cost would grow exponentially.

an evasion bonus- simple enough either works like a pair of db's, but only gives you a chance for X number of -pth, not guarranteed to to be 100% effective

a protection staff- basically either gives a damage reduction like the prot spell or could be used as a means to direct damage away or back to your enemy, while the original receiver will take a certain % regardless, if this procs then GA doesnt retaliate

Unappreciated Misnomer June 23 2007 3:58 PM EDT

chance for chance

lol :P

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] June 23 2007 4:07 PM EDT

Why not just make it function like a pair of AGs - no x's or +'s. Example:

A Staff [0](+10)

It just goes in the weapon slot - still has an upgrade curve and everything. Lets mages have more than the maximum of 2 DD amplifying equips.

8DEOTWP June 23 2007 5:14 PM EDT

Well, as long as they can't have a tat and wield a staff and if its power is really limited. Limited as in a 1% boost to DD or EO/ED per enchantment with +8ish being about as high as you would go. And only one staff per team.

MissingNo June 23 2007 5:24 PM EDT

How would a tattoo interfere with a staff that you hold in your hand?

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] June 23 2007 6:52 PM EDT

It wouldn't.

lostling June 23 2007 6:52 PM EDT

i think the idea of allowing spells to doubt hit with a 50% chance is a good one... maybe the + on it can add armor ;)

Unappreciated Misnomer June 23 2007 8:17 PM EDT

you cant add armor to a staff to protect yourself, maybe add to the + a spell thatll protect you.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] June 23 2007 8:26 PM EDT

Double hitting would be cheap.

QBOddBird June 23 2007 8:35 PM EDT

I think having a tattoo that gives a minion instant STR, DX, and an ever-increasing-with-seemingly-limitless-PTH is cheap, too. 0=) No further comment

MissingNo June 23 2007 8:39 PM EDT

Fanta, but there would be a 50% chance of your DD backfiring and doing damage to you.

8DEOTWP June 23 2007 9:36 PM EDT

How would a tattoo interfere with a staff that you hold in your hand?

Yeah it really wouldn't.. I just think that if this is implemented, then the single mages at my single archer's level would not only draw me now, but would be completely overpowered.

I think Virus' idea is real good, and does balance the characters out money/exp wise, simply put. Just the idea of single mages with tats and now this staff.. well it scares me, /cower.

8DEOTWP June 23 2007 9:39 PM EDT

Also, I don't think it is a big deal to say they can't wield a staff and have a tat - we already cannot wear chest armor or cloaks with a tat. What's the diff? I just think it would be a good idea, balance-wise, to make mages' choose between full armor+staff, or a tat.

Unappreciated Misnomer June 23 2007 11:05 PM EDT

then lets say a mage can a have both items, but not until say 1mil mpr

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] June 24 2007 1:42 AM EDT

Oh, then I wouldn't really like the inconsistency of half backfiring, and half double hitting. Sometimes you win the battle, sometimes you lose...

lostling June 24 2007 1:46 AM EDT

put it this way i do not see people using bows half double shotting half cutting their fingers off -.- doesnt make sense to backfire

MissingNo June 24 2007 2:32 AM EDT

Uh, we're not talking about archers, so that's irrelevant. And what makes it a good idea, it has to conform to something that already exists? You must not like the NSs then.

horseguy001 June 24 2007 3:29 AM EDT

Slade's NW Buster went snicker-snack! [239842]

~15 mil NW VB, 1.7 mil str

YousaboutobeJUNKd's familiar's Magic Missile hit Star [307488]

No NW, and thats after the 30% reduction from my MgS and ranged round penalties. Plus that is a small MM for me...I have been put millions into the negatives by some of the MM out there.

Why do mages need staves? Quit judging this game based on the *potential* to massively upgrade weapons. 99% of us don't have the $$$.

lostling June 24 2007 11:11 AM EDT

look and range damage and tell me you think the same way -.- we aint talking about melee here

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] June 24 2007 11:55 AM EDT

You have the potential to hit more than once, so you're not really comparing very fairly. Plus, that familiar has an MM of 1.7mil, and an AG bonus, making it probably around 1.9mil. That's not a very small MM.

MissingNo June 24 2007 1:23 PM EDT

Horse, I hate to tell you, but a 15m NW weapon where you are is very small. And might I need to remind you that..... you're using a VB? Of course you're not going to do very much damage to a mage using a VB. If you wanted big numbers, you could have gotten a BoNe or a MH. And if you would have read our posts, you'd see that a lot of us suggested things for the staff other than making DD stronger.

horseguy001 June 24 2007 3:21 PM EDT

Yeah I know 15 mil NW for where I am is small, but there is nothing I can really do about that without forging. I just took a month off to forge me exbow up, and need to spend another ~4 months of forging to get my equipment up to a good NW. My mpr growth is going to be nilch.

My problems aside,

Mages not spending USD can increase mpr and damage, just as much as a tank that *isn't spending USD*. Trust me I know. I think this whole staves idea is just a rehashed USD spending problem.

I read the posts, haveing it double hit 50% of the time and backfire 50% of the time gives you an overall average of the same damage as now, only with more potential losses. Why is that appealing?

MissingNo June 24 2007 4:20 PM EDT

It'd add a new uh, side to mages. Mages are boring as it is. Tanks are fun. Mix and match shiny armors and swords and bows.
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