Tattoo enhancing, mk. II (in General)

Shidoshi August 7 2007 8:55 AM EDT

As the author of this topic that has spawned the latest poll, I'd like to change the idea and start a new poll. After seeing some initial reactions to the original idea, I'd like to submit the following:

Instead of using $ (CB or USD) to grow your tattoo, how about we increase the rate of growth according to your tattoo's level against your max. tatoo allowance. It would go something like this:

Tattoo lvl
as a % of
max. allowance = % Boost

base - 25% = 100%

26% - 50% = 75%

51% - 75% = 50%

76% - 99% = 25%

max. allowance = standard growth rate

That should get your tattoo up and running nicely without any advantage going to users of any sort of currency.

Talion August 7 2007 8:59 AM EDT

I don't agree with the proposed boost %, but I like the idea very much. It has a lot of potential.

bartjan August 7 2007 9:20 AM EDT

Are people even aware of why the max tattoo level was introduced?

miteke [Superheros] August 7 2007 9:24 AM EDT

Don't like it. It makes it possible for a high MPR team to just train tattoos quickly and sell them.

Talion August 7 2007 9:29 AM EDT

miteke, it depends on the bonus rate.

A base tattoo costs about 200K to 250K right now. A level 100K tattoo costs about 500K to 750K. To raise your tattoo level by 100K, it would still take you about 1 or 2 weeks fighting weaker opponents. It would not be profitable. At least, no more than forging.

But again, it would depend on the bonus rate.

Shidoshi August 7 2007 9:30 AM EDT

But at the same time, people will realise that they won't need to buy high level tattoo's, as it will be easier for them to grow their own. That should take the sting out of the market this proposal seems to suggest.

QBsutekh137 August 7 2007 1:55 PM EDT

(I put this on the poll thread, but will put here too...)

Where tattoo enhancement is a definite NO for me is for anyone in the bonus exemption range (6/10 BA refresh rate). Those folks can pump in money without PR reprisal, because rewards won't care. For a huge character, tattoo increases are one of the few areas for big growth left, as AC upgrades get more and more costly, etc.

However, for small players, if someone wants to increase a tattoo with cash, I actually have a hard time making an argument against it. I suppose one reason would be that a new player probably is already enhancing experience vis NUB or NCB, so why bother.

Someone mentioned tourneys in the poll thread -- I think letting tournament characters enhance tattoos with money would be SENSATIONAL. Players would have to tweak their strategies, deciding the best place to put cash. Also, tournament characters are small, so clearly are not in the 6/10 range -- they would have to be careful not to increase PR so much as to ruin rewards. Put another way, tournament characters would have to be more careful about making sure the choice was giving them bang-for-buck. Larger characters would not need to make that distinction as much.

So, my refined answers: For tournament characters and "small" characters: YES, as long as levels could not be purchased beyond max. tattoo level. For everyone else, NO at all times.

As for an accelerated growth curve on smaller tattoos... I tihnk bart handled that one. In a way, these thoughts are trying to change the whole reason for max tattoo level in the first place. The MOST anyone should ask for in terms of a growth rate change would be to let tattoos catch up to the max tattoo rate more quickly on a character that starts from scratch and starts with a brand new tattoo. Anything else is just playing with things that would level out over time anyway, isn't it?

Talion August 7 2007 2:04 PM EDT

"Anything else is just playing with things that would level out over time anyway, isn't it?" <--- Best comment in the thread. I agree 100%. So my vote is NO.

lostling August 7 2007 2:14 PM EDT

i voted yes :) as long theres something that heavily limits the upgrading ^^ maybe like when your 10/20 you get 100% boost for lets say 500k a week and when your 9/20 you get a 75% boost for 500k and 8/20 you get 50% boost 7-5/20 you get 25% boost maybe that would be better?

deifeln August 7 2007 2:14 PM EDT

Perhaps the amount any tat can be 'leveled' to should be related to the largest tat in the game.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] August 7 2007 2:16 PM EDT

Hummm... A NUB for tattoos...The farthest from the biggest you are, the faster it grows.

Shidoshi August 7 2007 2:16 PM EDT

"Anything else is just playing with things that would level out over time anyway, isn't it?"

But doesn't the max. allowance grow faster than the tattoo does? That means if you do not have a tattoo ABOVE your max. allowance, it can never catch up. Simply put, we need a way to get our tattoos to the same level as our max. allowance (% growth, a 'one off' paid boost from the tattoo artist, praying to the gods, whatever), then have the tattoo level at the same rate as your max. allowance. And while we're on the max. allowance subject, why is it that the max. is higher than your MPR? Why not make it the same as your MPR?

QBsutekh137 August 7 2007 2:21 PM EDT

That is exactly what I said, Shidoshi. My full quote is:

"The MOST anyone should ask for in terms of a growth rate change would be to let tattoos catch up to the max tattoo rate more quickly on a character that starts from scratch and starts with a brand new tattoo. Anything else is just playing with things that would level out over time anyway, isn't it?"

So, we are in vehement agreement. *smile*

Shidoshi August 7 2007 2:25 PM EDT

Ah, good, well then, welcome aboard the S.S. "Tattoo's R us" then me hearty!!

(Please don't ask about the awful pirate reference - I don't know why either!)

noneedforthese August 7 2007 3:43 PM EDT

I think it should just have an exponential cost... It'll help out the area that needs it the most - the stale middle mark (1~mil mpr)

QBsutekh137 August 7 2007 5:26 PM EDT

That is a pretty good point, noneed, and would cover what I said more elegantly than some sort of hard cut off or tourney-only flag.

QBRanger August 7 2007 5:36 PM EDT

The problem I have, especially with lower MPR characters being able to pay for levels is the fact they are using the ROE.

If they want a higher level tattoo, then level the darn thing like the rest of us. Get rid of the ROE and level your freaking tattoo.

Too many players expect to use the ROE then buy a higher level tattoo later. Now we are seeing the crunch of all those players who used the ROE paying the price.

Now I full well realize the ROE is needed to try to get near the top ranks with a N*B, but that is the choice you make. More xp on your minions or a higher level tattoo.

PS: I do not like the ROE as an item. It is now a must need item but sacrifices levelling a tattoo. Too much N*B and the ROE gives way too much xp (see Koy as the example as Mantra used the ROE and a high NUB to build this character to the very top). Too low N*B and the ROE makes you get to the upper ranks but without a high level tattoo (see Mikel, ROE most of the way but he had a high level TOA ready, without it waiting for him, he would be lagging).

QBRanger August 7 2007 5:38 PM EDT

Or, Jon could just lower the Max Tattoo Level so people will catch up to it easier and keep the xp tattoo's get stable.

I would prefer that option over paying for xp/PR.

Relic August 7 2007 8:59 PM EDT

I think the major point here is that there are so few big tattoos compared with players that a new player soon realizes they will not only never be able to reach the pinnacles of MPRdom and they also realize they will never compete even if they accomplish the feat of being in the top 10% without a massive tattoo, which none exist at that level for the purchasing, insta'ing and I think we all agree leveling one to that level just isn't possible at this point in the game from scratch with only one player.

QBRanger August 7 2007 9:06 PM EDT

If people would not use the ROE as much and level tattoos, there would be higher ones out there.

Relic August 7 2007 9:09 PM EDT

Personally, I would like to see a monthly reset of everything and everyone. Item namings could rollover and be allotted each month, and only after being allotted then their expiration time would decrement. Really and truly, most players who have not been here a long time are leaving due to the daunting, even overwhelming task of comparing their efforts over a week or two and seeing just how long it will take them to compete with the big boys in the game. This would all but remove the USD unfairness that is whined about so often.

A leaderboard for each past month could be saved and archived. The characters themselves could even be shown, so that the exact breakdown of exp per minion would be known, but only after the month, giving way to never having one strategy being king or a secret for any long period of time.

I know this is somewhat off topic, but the N*B's are trying to create a sense that you can reach the top, but with the massive tattoos playing such a major role in the game in the top ranks, it is a stark reality that you either have to raise a tattoo or try for MPR, if you go the MPR route, you will need a massive tattoo, if you go the tattoo route, you will lack severely in MPR.

Talion August 7 2007 9:09 PM EDT

Indeed, but at lower levels, the RoE rocks!

Relic August 7 2007 9:11 PM EDT

The monthly resets could also maintain all supporter items but take them back down to base items each month. =)

Talion August 7 2007 9:21 PM EDT

Monthly reset is very harsh imop. Maybe a yearly reset would make more sense. Or... simply play tourneys and forget about a main character. That way, you will get all the resets you wish for.

Basically, I don't think a reset can be partial. Either you reset everything, or you don't. Finding a middle ground is nearly impossible.

QBRanger August 7 2007 9:23 PM EDT

"Indeed, but at lower levels, the RoE rocks!"

Then do not complain about not being able to get a higher level tattoo later.

Talion August 7 2007 9:26 PM EDT

I won't.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] August 7 2007 10:54 PM EDT

Reset? What's cool about this game is how you can accumulate wealth, characters and gear over a long period of time. It is a long term investment.

It certainly is not a solution to anything, and would ruin the game, plain and simple.

QBOddBird August 7 2007 11:47 PM EDT

Ranger: I think there's a much easier solution.

As per my comment on the poll:

"I vote no.
This idea blows, but the concept is right on. We need to find a way to get more 'upper echelon' tattoos.

That way, though, is to fix the N*B. Think we could concentrate on that instead? It's a little more important anyways. "

noneedforthese August 8 2007 1:42 AM EDT

Actually I agree with OOB more :)

But we could still make it so that the lvls are purchasable... no one's saying we should buy 1 lvl for 1 cb, but if a dedicated player wanted to spend 10 million on his Tattoo instead of his weapon's X or whatever else, he should be able to. Why that is such a big problem, I don't understand.

Having said that.. if the cost is more than 30~%+ (i.e. more expensive than most instas) would anyone actually opt for that? If the costs were truly exponential, then would it actually make a difference in making high-end tattoos more available? Are my feet cold?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 8 2007 8:54 AM EDT

tanks already have an infinite cash sink via the damage mod on weapons. mages have nothing in that vein. armor has a cost curve that gives it diminishing returns and pr weights that compound the issue. there is the weapon allowance but at the high levels these matter little.

adding upgradeable tats would give mages an infinite money sink. it also gives tanks the choice of two. perhaps we could just allow mages the option! :)

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 8 2007 10:52 AM EDT

Tanks already have more than one cash sink.... don't forget there are also DB's and both mages and tanks can use those. Mages still have AG's and and CoI that they can dump money in if they so wish but I don't see any of those that are big like melee weapons or bows. Just think if you had 160 million in one pair of AG's? Then what would mages have to complain about?

Miandrital August 8 2007 11:04 AM EDT

+20 = $174,611,420
That is for AGs. A 20% boost in damage. Tanks can easily dump the same amount and get a 300% boost in damage.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 8 2007 11:19 AM EDT

So what about DB... with all this cash that Mages can't get rid of... I don't see a mage with the biggest Displacement Boots in the game....
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