Tattoo's are the anti-nub. ;) (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 9:34 AM EDT

The recent boosting Tattoos thread and the poll got me thinking.

Maybe there is something to be said for the ability to inflate Tattoo levels (or lowr the Max Tattoo Level to exactly 1/3 of your total XP...).

Characters, even the Top one, come and go. The ability for a new user (assuming the bonuses work as intended) to have the ability to reach the top of the game (well 95% of the top, to be exact) is never devauled against how long CB2 has been going.

Tattoo's throw a spanner into the works though.

The largest Tattoo will be the one fought with most (for most rewards) for the longest time possible.

While the bonuses are there to allow a new player, at any time in CB2 lifespan, to have the ability to work up thir character, there is nothing in place to help them work up thier Tattoo. It will *always* be lower than one fought with from the 1st of January.

Really, there are only two choices. Add a way to inflate a Tattoos level, or reduce the Max Tattoo level to exactly the size a Tattoo could have grown to with your current character, or 1/3 of all your trained XP.

(If the Max Tattoo level is already worked out like this, this post is redundant!)

Otherwise, the whole idea of the New User Bonus is pointless, as a new user can never compete with an existing users Tattoo.

Of course, you could always say "Buy a large Tattoo" in which case, let's just scap the bonuses, as a new player could "Buy a large Character".

QBRanger August 9 2007 9:42 AM EDT

"While the bonuses are there to allow a new player, at any time in CB2 lifespan, to have the ability to work up their character, there is nothing in place to help them work up their Tattoo. It will *always* be lower than one fought with from the 1st of January. "

As I understand things, this statement is not true.

If a NUB or NCB uses a tattoo from the very beginning, just like all those that stated on Jan 1, 2005, they would get just as much xp for their character and tattoo. Well up to 95% of the top MPR/tattoo. Their tattoo should be just as large as others in their range. The N*B does not make the tattoo grow slower then the character, it just accelerates ALL the growth the character and tattoo does.

The problem is people are almost forced to use the ROE in the beginning, therefore they are not growing tattoos like us old timers did, from level 20.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 9:49 AM EDT

I thought that too Ranger, but that would only be true if the current Top character had been in place, without retraining, from Jan 1st.

Otherwise, the current top, and therefoer the bonus percent, is lower than the total amount of XP a Tattoo could have earned over CBs lifespan.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 9:53 AM EDT

For Example.

Assume the current top character is still TAB. Made on the first of Jan, he has earned a total of 9 Million XP.

A Tattoo grown with him would then have 3 Million XP ot it's name.

If this is the case, the a new user starting now should be able to grow a character to 8,550,000 XP and a Tattoo to 2,850,000.

But if for example, TAB was retired, and another character started which has made the top spot would have less than 9 Million XP, so the New User would have a smaller bonus, and thier home grow Tattoo (which was still being grown on the new Top character) would never be able to reach 2,850,000.

QBRanger August 9 2007 10:14 AM EDT

I don't understand.

The N*B is based on the top character at the time the N*B was created.

If TAB is retired, then the N*B created after that will be based on the new top character and its tattoo will grow accordingly.

I do see the problem with retraining as it lowers someones MPR but the tattoo keeps all that xp. However, is it that much to allow people to grow tattoos for money? I do not think so.

Growing a tattoo takes time and dedication. Something people do not understand.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 10:27 AM EDT

I agree 100% with Ranger.

People that spend time actually learning and improving the game instead of just playing it should keep what they have worked hard to build for over 2 1/2 years.

I used a RoE during my NCB, but that is because I do not plan to shoot for the top. I just plan to slowly make my character unbeatable against other characters with similar PR using only armor.

Had I planned to use a tattoo, I would have done so from the start and tried to insta it whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Time invested by players should be respected as much as, if not more than, money invested.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 10:30 AM EDT

Sorry Ranger, I'll try to be clearer.

There exists a top character with the current max XP (I'll call it 100%) and a Tattoo they've had since Day one (therefore with 33%).

All others are below him in XP earned.

This character retires, and a new one with 95% XP takes the top spot. This characters Tattoo is 31.35%.

A new user starting is then able to reach 90.25% XP with a home grown 29.79% Tatoo, and can never reach the Tattoo at 33%.

This difference will continue to grow, the more times untrianing lowers the top charcaters XP, or the Top character retires and is replaced (not overtaken in size).

There is no measure in place to allow a new users Tattoo to grow beyond the capabilities of a Tattoo existing from Day one of CB.

The difference might only be small now, but it will continue to grow, especially if there is a problem with the bonuses not letting your reach 95%.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 10:34 AM EDT

"Time invested by players should be respected as much as, if not more than, money invested."

Which is why CB1 stopped.

There was no way for a new player to compete witht he time invested by an older player.

Directly the reaosn for the NUB and NCB.

They work (or sohuld) for charcater based time investment (XP) but there is nothing in place for Tattoos. Which are also a time base investment.

Unless the max tattoo is limited at explicitly 33% of your characters total XP, in which case the bonus percents would serve this purpose.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 10:36 AM EDT

Third! and even if the MTL was limited to 33%, while it would even out 'power' it still wouldn't stop Tattoo's from day one being larger than tattoo's that came after.

QBRanger August 9 2007 10:50 AM EDT

Ok,

I need to explain myself better.

1) The top character, MPR based, has never retired in cb2 yet. I do not think I will retire Koy but rather sell it, therefore the statements you make with respect to this argument is moot. When I sold TAB, it was not the top MPR character anymore.

2) You state: "They work (or should) for character based time investment (XP) but there is nothing in place for Tattoos. Which are also a time base investment. "
I am very confused. The N*B does give tattoos extra xp in proportion to the xp gotten to characters. Have we not seen Jayuu power level his large tattoo towards the end of his last NCB?

3) I am very confused as to why you believe: "it still wouldn't stop Tattoo's from day one being larger than tattoo's that came after." Like point 2 above, the N*B works on tattoos as well as characters. If the N*B is designed to give someone the 95% top MPR, then it will give their tattoo 95% of the top level tattoo as if that someone with the top MPR levelled their tattoo from level 20.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 10:59 AM EDT

This is GL's point, I think:

Characters retire. Tattoos never have to. Especially with the inflated max tattoo level, a tattoo could keep growing a great deal while the highest character MPR in the game remains stagnant.

He is not saying that is necessarily the exact case right now, but in theory, several characters around 2 million MPR could, if they wanted, stop playing, but handing off a tattoo to another team that can grow the tattoo, thereby growing tattos beyond standard character MPR.

For example, I stopped and forged for a while. Let's say I had been top character at the time. All bonuses would have stayed the same while my tattoo, under novice's usage, would keep growing.

If the max tattoo level were in pefect lockstep with MPR, then this point would indeed be moot. That would mean the largest team could have the largest tattoo, but not be able to keep it growing if the character retired -- there would be no one to hand it to with space in their max tattoo level.

GL, is that what you are talking about?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:03 AM EDT

I was using TAB as an example only. ;)

OK, then I sohuld add the stipulation (touched upon by your RoE comment) that everyone *needs* to use one tattoo, and that one tattoo only, from thier characters inception, otherwise it's impossible to come close to catching the largest Tattoo's in the game.

here is where the problem lies;

"If the N*B is designed to give someone the 95% top MPR, then it will give their tattoo 95% of the top level tattoo as if that someone with the top MPR levelled their tattoo from level 20."

Tattoo's are not fixed to characters. It's possible (and I know the inverse is also posible) for the current Top MPR to have a Tattoo *larger* than if they leveled thier Tattoo from level 20.

In which case, no one is catching it. Ever.

If the Largest MPR in the game is using the largest Tattoo, it will never be equaled in size.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:05 AM EDT

Thanks Sute! Exaclty what I'm saying!

Which is why either the MTL has to be lowered to be " in pefect lockstep with MPR" or there needs to be a way to inflate tattoo levels.

Otherwise the ideal of new players havign a crack at the top, why cb2 was designed and why the bonuses where made, was a useless gesture. ;)

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:12 AM EDT

Tattoos can retire also.

Just look at what happened to DAWG's tattoo. Was bought by someone who's MTL was less then the tats level. So it just sat there for months, not growing while the top MPRs continued to grow. Other high level tattoos sit on characters while their owners level a new NCB.

It is a 2 way street.

My point is that if someone took a N*B from the beginning and a level 20 tattoo from the beginning and used them together on the same character throughout their N*B, the tattoo's level would be more then appropriate for their character. Just look at Tezmac, Lega, NWO, Xanas to name a few. All their tattoos are just fine for where they are.

However, the ROE makes it not feasible to use a level 20 tattoo in the beginning as the bonus xp on the character is so good.

Now we are seeing the sequela of all those N*Bs using the ROE. Again, it was their choice to use the ROE and not level a tattoo, then try to find a higher level tattoo to insta/buy.

The MTL is far above what someone who leveled a level 20 tattoo would get. I would not be adverse to lowering it to such a level or a small bit above. But that would not help the problem some people are saying about there not being enough high level tattoos to insta to/buy.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:15 AM EDT

Sorry for the multiple posts, a better example has come to me.

The current Top MPR character has 9 Mil MPR.

A new user is designed to be able to reach 8,550,000 MPR with a home grown Tattoo of 2,850,000.

This would be fine if the Topm MPR character is using a 3 Mil Tattoo.

The new users Tattoo would then be 95% of the Top Tattoo.

But, it's quite possible for top MPR to be using a 4 Mil Tattoo (or more), meaning the new users home grown Tattoo is no longer 95% in size, and can *never* reach 95% in size.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:17 AM EDT

"It is a 2 way street."

Rubbish arguement. ;P

Then we don't need a NUB as it's quite possible the top characters will all take 2 months breaks, or all be banned, so any new user can reach them. ;)

Same as buying a Tattoo/character. ;)

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 11:17 AM EDT

And that is if a level 20 tattoo is used from the beginning. What if a level 3M tattoo is used from the beginning of a N*B all the way to 95% of the highest MPR? Wouldn't that tattoo actually have a chance to overtake the biggest tattoos in the later part of the N*B?

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:18 AM EDT

"If the Largest MPR in the game is using the largest Tattoo, it will never be equaled in size. "

And what is wrong with that? Or have we gotten so PC we have to give everyone a chance for everything?

Why not just give all new players a 3M MPR character with a 5M level tattoo to start? That would solve everything and give everyone the same level playing field. Forget about those that started playing 2 years ago. and challenged over 1M battles. Why should those people have any advantage?

But back to that statement. It is wrong. If a NCB with an already high level tattoo manages to start to grow it near the end of their NCB it will pass the highest current tattoo. There is already precedence for it. Jayuu with Critters managed to get his tattoo higher then mine I had on TAB/Koy. At the time I did have the highest MPR and tattoo. While Jayuu did not pass my MPR, he did take the top tattoo spot by over 100k levels.

However, if we change the MTL as you suggest, then your statement becomes a reality as you need a higher MPR to get a higher MTL then the top MPR at the time.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 11:19 AM EDT

I was referring to Ranger's latest reply.

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:19 AM EDT

Talion

Do not forget the MTL. As long as a tattoo is over the MTL it does not grow.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 11:21 AM EDT

Yes, but the MTL will eventually surpass 3M and the tattoo will continues growing from there instead of the level it would have been at if it had started at level 20. Thus given it a huge head start. No?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:25 AM EDT

"And what is wrong with that? Or have we gotten so PC we have to give everyone a chance for everything?

Why not just give all new players a 3M MPR character with a 5M level tattoo to start? That would solve everything and give everyone the same level playing field. Forget about those that started playing 2 years ago. and challenged over 1M battles. Why should those people have any advantage? "

My gosh, I never once advocated gifting anyone anything.

It's still about equivalent effort Ranger.

And quite frankly, yes, everyone should have an equal chance at everything. Otherwise why did we stop CB1?

"However, if we change the MTL as you suggest, then your statement becomes a reality as you need a higher MPR to get a higher MTL then the top MPR at the time."

Very, very, good point.

So we don't lower MTL. Instead, we add a way to inflate tattoo levels.

I think I might vote 'Yes' to the poll after all.

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:28 AM EDT

Ok,

How is Koy going to get a higher tattoo then he already has?

Is the top MPR character likely to ever retire? Or will it just be sold?

Tattoo leveling is just fine where it is.

Example. NWO--MPR is 2,708,351, tattoo is 3,662,234. Used from a baby Jig level 20. As far as I know, never left NWO's side and was used for every battle its daddy fought.

Yes, Koy has a super high tattoo 4.5M. But how many of these super high tattoos are there? Just 2, mine and Little Devil's. So you want to change the whole system due to 2 super high tattoos that were both power leveled by a NCB?

Why not just let another NCB power level one of the 3M tattoos that are out there?

But back to the initial problem with no higher level tattoos out there to insta. People using the ROE instead of growing their own tattoos. Based on NWOs tattoo, if you manage to grow a tattoo with a N*B from level 20, at 2M MPR it should be about 2.7M levels or so. What is wrong with that? Please let me know since there are now many more tattoos out there higher.

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:33 AM EDT

"It's still about equivalent effort Ranger. "

Again, my problem with the NUB. So the effort someone has put into cb from Jan 1 2005 means nothing?

So someone starting today in 4 months putting in 1/7th the time should be able to have a tattoo as large as NWO's or Tezmac's?

That does not sound very fair to those players at all.

The time and effort put into CB already has to count for something. I certainly would never expect to join a game that has been going on for over 2 1/2 years and compete with the top players after only 4 months. However after 4 months I would hope to be able to be competitive in most aspects of the game. The current system does that. Why belittle the effort put in by those with high level tattoos already?

One of the things I am most proud of on Koy is the high level on the tattoo. Something I worked on since Jan 1. Yes, I sold my old tattoo but at the time it was the highest.

But...My gosh, playing since the beginning should have some advantage. Being able to pay to level a tattoo just removes that one, what is left?

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 11:38 AM EDT

We could create a Gym so people can pay to boost ST and DX?

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:41 AM EDT

I think creating a CB BALCO would be better and quicker for someone to boost their str.

Mem August 9 2007 11:43 AM EDT

Since when did the world become fair?

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:44 AM EDT

Ever since the Democrats won Congress and put in all their "social programs" and all their "equality measures".

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 11:45 AM EDT

Let's get on the same page folks, we're drifting!

GL's point is 100% consistent and 100% accurate in theory.

Yes, it just so happens that the scenarios he is using have not happened (yet), but that is no reason to say everything is OK.

Next, GL is operating under the assumption that the bonus exists, will continue to exist, and exists so that, in every way, a new player or new character can attain 95% of CB2 gestalt greatness as if existing from Jan. 1, 2005. That is a consistent stance, and is the reason for the bonus. If you don't agree with that, then the topic has changed to being about the NUB/NCB. If you want to discuss that, please start a new thread. GL is talking about tattoo leveling under the CURRENT accepted situation.

So, in that perfect, consistent realm, there are two options (options that GL has agreed with):

-- Lockstep MTL ro MPR thereby making sure no tattoo can do an end-run around the reality of CB2 existence because of MTL lee-way.
-- Allow tattoos to be grown in other ways so that everyone has the same end-run capability. *smile*

If you can think of another option, other than changing the topic to, "Bah, just leave it alone!", then please contribute. Beyond that, no one has poked any real holes in GL's logic.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:47 AM EDT

"But...My gosh, playing since the beginning should have some advantage. Being able to pay to level a tattoo just removes that one, what is left?"

Lower the MTL. ;)

I don't really want a way to pay to increase Tatoo Levels.

I'm trying to throw existing players a bone. Lowering MTL to 1/3 of your XP will mean that no matter what, they *will* have to fight more than you Ranger, to surpase your Tattoo.

No amount of re rolling NCBs to power level Tattoo's higher than you will work. (Wow was I wrong about that! :P I didn't think that would be possible. ;))

They work harder than you, or they don't have a tatoo as big as you.

Isn't that the way you'd like it? ;)

What problem would anyone have if tattoos were capped at 1/3 XP, or the rate they gain XP at? (Well, make it a little higher to benefit named tattoos)

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:53 AM EDT

Again, and yet again,

Why do we need another way for tattoos to grow? How is this broken or wrong? Just because someone says so?

I will continue to say "Bah, just leave it alone!", since it is not broken.

If people would use a level 20 tattoo from day 1, they would have a large enough tattoo. Just look at NWO and Tezmac for examples.

Why is there a need to change it? So everyone can get a super high tattoo? Then they become unspecialized, generic, and boring.

People make a choice when they decide to use the ROE and now are paying for it. Why make things too cookbook for people?

If we let people pay to raise tattoos or make it easier for people to raise them by other means the game loses a choice. Use the ROE, get a low level tattoo and pay to raise it to your MTL. How pathetically boring!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:56 AM EDT

Ranger, lowering the MTL to 1/3 your XP would stop surper leveing Tattoos.

It would make Tattoo leveling fair across the board for everyone, and would help keep your tattoo more secure from newer upstarts. ;)

If you don't like that option, then the other is to allow everyone the ability to inflate thier tatoo level. Something I'm not too keen on.

QBRanger August 9 2007 11:57 AM EDT

GL;

The current system is not broken. That is my point.

Personally I like the ability to start a NCB and try to power level a tattoo later. Mikel did it, Jayuu did it, Freed is trying to. Makes the NCB fun for an older player. Lowering the MTL removes that challenge.

Yet again, if people would level a tattoo from day 1, it would be just fine for where they are fighting. Whether they are in the lower, middle or upper ranks of the game.

Of course there will be a few tattoos out of the ordinary like Little Devil's and mine, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Two tattoo out of hundreds that are too high should not cause such a controversy like this. Neither should the fact new players CHOOSE the ROE over leveling their own personal tattoo.

lostling August 9 2007 11:59 AM EDT

without the ROE can you even reach 95% atm? with an NCB or NUB ?

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 11:59 AM EDT

Yeah, such tattoos should not cause any controversy....

...especially when one of them is yours. *wink*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 11:59 AM EDT

OK, I don't get your stance now.

If you're cool with using the large MTL and a NCB bonus to power level Tattoos, why are you against using cash and the Tattoo artist (or another method) to do the same?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:01 PM EDT

Oh and;

"The current system is not broken"

It is. When the ability to power level a tattoo using a NCB and the high MTL removes a NUB ability to make a level 20 home grown tatoo reach 95% of the Top Tattoo.

Either Tattoo Leveling, or the NBU is broken.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 12:02 PM EDT

The part I don't understand about your proposed method GL is what it change besides making new tattoos grow bigger faster?

During my NCB, I was using a level 750k ToE for defensive purposes. I obtained that tattoo with insta deals on many other smaller tattoos.

When I reached 750K MTL, I had to decide if I wanted to go with only armor or if I wanted to use a tattoo. Had I decided to use a tattoo, I would have switched from my RoE to the ToE at that point and I would have a level 1.2M or 1.3M ToE equipped on my character.

If I understand you correctly, your options would have allowed me to equip a level 20 tattoo from the beginning and it would have been pegged to my MTL from then on? Is that correct?

If I am correct, than I still agree with Ranger. Having to look for bigger tattoos and selling smaller ones to smaller characters is one of the many ways that forces players who want to make it in CBII to interact with other players.

That is a good thing in my opinion.

Your option or the $ for leveling options both kill that interaction.

Which is why I vote for no change.

QBRanger August 9 2007 12:02 PM EDT

Lost:

That is yet another debate which most of us believe the N*B is way too low for what Jon states he wants it to do.

For the purpose of this thread, just assume the N*B can get you to 95% of the top with ROE, a bit less without one.

The choice is: Use the ROE for max MPR and try/hope to get a tattoo later via insta/sale, OR use a tattoo from day 1, have a bit less MPR but have a fully functioning tattoo appropriate to the MPR you currently have.

Choices are great!!!!

But... If we are allowed to pay to level a tattoo, or if there are other ways to "power them up", then everyone will use a ROE in the beginning and then "power level" a tattoo to their MTL. Pathetically cookbook.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:04 PM EDT

"But... If we are allowed to pay to level a tattoo, or if there are other ways to "power them up", then everyone will use a ROE in the beginning and then "power level" a tattoo to their MTL. Pathetically cookbook."

Ranger, don't you see that lowering the MTL to 1/3 of your Total XP stops all that though?

And was one of the methods I mentioned in the OP (and the method I prefer).

Really, what are we arguing about?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:07 PM EDT

"If I am correct, than I still agree with Ranger. Having to look for bigger tattoos and selling smaller ones to smaller characters is one of the many ways that forces players who want to make it in CBII to interact with other players."

Exactly what lowering the MTL to 1/3 would do. If you didn't start with a tat at 20 on day one of your character, you would have to get a higher one off another player who no longer wanted one.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 12:08 PM EDT

Ok, then although I have nothing against your idea, I think the current system is better.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:12 PM EDT

What, that it makes a mockery of the ideal of the NUB?

QBRanger August 9 2007 12:14 PM EDT

"If you're cool with using the large MTL and a NCB bonus to power level Tattoos, why are you against using cash and the Tattoo artist (or another method) to do the same?"

Since it takes time and effort (yes effort) to use the NCB to get it high enough to power level a tattoo. It has been done only a few times successfully at the top ranks. Rarity is something to be treasured. And it is one of the few things in CB that cannot be bought. You can buy a higher tattoo but cannot make it.

Using cash and the TA to do it takes away the rarity.

And who ever said the N*B was to get a tattoo to 95% of the top tattoos level? I never ever read that anywhere. If you level one appropriately from day 1, it will be just right for your MPR and whom you fight. Then you can try to insta up to a higher one. And there should be more higher ones out there if people leveled tattoos from the beginning.

And Sut, certainly one of the 2 is mine. But when I came back to CB, it took me a while to get one of the larger tattoos and a lot of begging when Jayuu sold out to get this one. That is why it is special to me.

If we can TA tattoos with cash, everyone will have a MTL tattoo, how boring. Why not just add a 5th minion or something since everyone who can afford it will have a MTL tattoo?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:20 PM EDT

"Since it takes time and effort (yes effort) to use the NCB to get it high enough to power level a tattoo. It has been done only a few times successfully at the top ranks. Rarity is something to be treasured. And it is one of the few things in CB that cannot be bought. You can buy a higher tattoo but cannot make it."

Or you buy the required BA cash with USD. Hel you can (if you wanted to) buy a large enough NCB character to do it. Without needing to spend the time to make it.

Money can already get you this.

"Using cash and the TA to do it takes away the rarity."

So if only a small minority of players can get something/do something, that makes it riht?

In that case, I want Jon to give me (and only me) the uber game breaking weapon of ultimate death, that will kill every single character in one round. It's cool becuase only I have it.

Rarity does not equal balance.

"And who ever said the N*B was to get a tattoo to 95% of the top tattoos level? I never ever read that anywhere. If you level one appropriately from day 1, it will be just right for your MPR and whom you fight. Then you can try to insta up to a higher one. And there should be more higher ones out there if people leveled tattoos from the beginning. "

Extrapolation from the NUB eperience bonus. That plus the fact, as you have stated, the bonus percentage is applied to tattoo, plus what you have also satted by " If you level one appropriately from day 1, it will be just right for your MPR and whom you fight"

MUB gets you to 95%, then your Tattoo is the same eqiuvalent size as the guys you face at 95%. Otherwise the NUB is broken.

"If we can TA tattoos with cash, everyone will have a MTL tattoo, how boring. Why not just add a 5th minion or something since everyone who can afford it will have a MTL tattoo?"

Which is why I'd advocate lowering the MTL.

Much easier than scrapping the NUB (which while anothe tpoic is something I'm in favour of...).

Oh and equivalent effort =/= equal effort.

QBRanger August 9 2007 12:20 PM EDT

If we lower the MTL to 1/3 the xp on the character, then why not just make the tattoo automatically become that level when it gets on that character.

Therefore that would make those with USD and those without equal.

*the above drips with sarcasm*

Back to reality:

Nothing is broken with the current system. Tattoos are not a given for a character. They have to be used to level. They have to be grown. High level ones are rare. The ability to "power level" an existing tattoo, while rare, should still be available.

I like the current system, but then again, I do have the highest tattoo. But I did work hard to level it and to find/buy it. I believe I put on over 2M levels to this tattoo since I bought it, no dishonor in that.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 12:23 PM EDT

The cash curve can be worked out to control that -- not everyone will have a maxxed out tattoo.

I appreciate your thoughts on the RoE, though. You are correct in that using an RoE is a conscious choice that makes tattoo growth impossible. Being able to buy tattoo levels after using an RoE up to level 1.5 million would be something I would be against.

That's probably why GL is talking more about MTL reduction than that -- it would be hard to set up a pay-for-tattoo-level system equitably (which is what we are seeing a lot of commentary on in the poll thread and a couple other tattoo threads...)

Finally, I am not sure how spending a lot of USD on a tattoo makes it "special", though I would have to say you are entitled to your opinion. I suppose DAWG's huge DBs that you pretty much told me you "couldn't let me get" (as you outbid me) are special too? I tend to have the _least_ special feelings toward the things I spent USD on...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:24 PM EDT

"The ability to "power level" an existing tattoo, while rare, should still be availab"

Fine then we power level them thorugh the TA, so everyone, rich and poor, get's the opportunity to do so. The 'choice' to do so if you will. Choice is great isn't it? I mean who want the only way to power level a tatoo is by making a NCB? (Oh and when I said I would use my NCB specifically to do this, Jon lowered the MTL.) More choice I say!

I vote Yes to the poll.

While your firsts tatement dripped with sarcasm, I'd much prefer that.

QBRanger August 9 2007 12:26 PM EDT

If you take the level of Steeds when I sold it back when I sold TAB and then look at the level of the tattoo I bought from Jayuu, it was only 500k of level. So in real effect, since I started CB2 I only paid for an insta of 500k levels out of 4.5M.

So believe what you want, but my tattoo is not a bought and paid for item. I put a bit of work into it

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:27 PM EDT

Edit: obviously for higher level Tat, I don't advocate making lower level ones up to your MTL. It's a max level, not a min level. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 12:29 PM EDT

"So believe what you want, but my tattoo is not a bought and paid for item. I put a bit of work into it"

And if we lowered the MTL to 1/3, so would everyones.

No one would be able to power level a tat and diminish any one elses long term investment...

QBJohnnywas August 9 2007 12:42 PM EDT

(warning: off topic posting approaching) Now I know what I've been missing in the forums...GL!!!! Sits back with a cup of tea and some popcorn.

*munch*

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 12:53 PM EDT

A lot of us put a lot of work in. I am not going to have a "worth" conversation with anyone, and nothing I said took anything away from anyone's hard work. Nor do I believe that any idea for the game be based on worth or any sort of entitlement mentality. The only "deserve" aspect in the game that Jonathan has defined is the NUB/NCB, and that states a new player should be able to reach 95% of the "top". GL's thread is trying to make sure that happens in equitable fashion with tattoos as well as characters.

lostling August 9 2007 12:58 PM EDT

# Abbreviation: RoE
# Transfers about 2/3 of the experience it would get as a tattoo to its owner.
# This results in a 20% experience increase for the character, given to the minion that wears it.

ranger... how is 20%(assuming its non named) a small amount -.- without an ROE =
95/120 x 100 =79%
which is around a 16% difference in exp.... hows that little lol :)

79% of the top MPR would be like 2,924,217x 79% = 2,310,131 ;) lol have yet to see anyone reach that at the end of an ncb even with ROE all the way....

it includes the old USD spending question... the general consensuses would be that if a person wants to spend ALOT of USD on the game its up to them... so y not the option to up your tattoos? as long you make it very expensive ( not that i dont up tatoos myself) ... just wondering y everyone is so against it

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 9 2007 1:05 PM EDT

I would be against it as the top chars would all have to switch to RoE for fighting, leaving their boostable tattoos for defense only, would be pretty sad.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 1:17 PM EDT

I think that allowing people to buy tattoo level is like allowing people to buy XP. It's just my point of view.

And GL, I actually like your idea. But I like the current system better.

You responded: "What, that it makes a mockery of the ideal of the NUB?"

The current system makes a mockery of YOUR ideal N*B. I think my ideal N*B is different from yours since I have different preferences.

QBJohnnywas August 9 2007 1:17 PM EDT

I'm not sure where I stand on this. I like the fact that you have to work to grow a tattoo; rather than the way you can boost weapons. And certainly at upper levels I'm not sure boosting tattoos is the way to go at all.

But at lower levels it might not be a bad idea to have some sort of tattoo growth spurt - increase the speed it levels until a certain level (around 500k or so?) so that you have more opportunity to grow a big tattoo? You still have to work hard; but it would stop USD abuse.

(sorry if anybody else has suggested this over the past week - I've kind of lost track of what people have suggested)

lostling August 9 2007 1:23 PM EDT

someone suggested something like a NCB for tatoos lol dunno :X

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 1:26 PM EDT

Actually, I like that idea very much. It would have to be much shorter than a character's NCB or it would need a cap (probably both). It would definitely push users to use a tattoo from day one instead of the RoE.

QBRanger August 9 2007 1:53 PM EDT

I personally want to see the ROE go the way of seekers and be removed. Raise the N*B accordingly to make sure people can get to where Jon wants them (another thread discussion on that point).

Then people would start to level tattoos from day 1 of their new character.

We already have a process in place to increase tattoo growth-The N*B. Use a low level tattoo and watch it power grow.

Using or not using a tattoo is all part of strategy. Removing the ROE will give people one less option but the way it is now, with the ROE almost being a must, it is the best of all the other choices, IMO of course.

QBRanger August 9 2007 1:55 PM EDT

"I would be against it as the top chars would all have to switch to RoE for fighting, leaving their boostable tattoos for defense only, would be pretty sad."

This will happen the very second we can upgrade tattoos via the tattoo artist.

I personally do not use a ROE since my tattoo will not level, it is my choice. Once you let me use a ROE and then pay to level Steeds, my choice is done.

Equip Steeds for defense and use the ROE to attack.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 2:11 PM EDT

"The current system makes a mockery of YOUR ideal N*B. I think my ideal N*B is different from yours since I have different preferences."

;)

Talion, my ideas (which aren't these, this is Jon's NUB, not mine)for how the bonuses should work, and yours, belong in a different thread.

As Sute reitterated, I'm using how the current NUB has been designed to work (again, if it fails to reach the 95% mark, that's a topic for a different thread).

"We already have a process in place to increase tattoo growth-The N*B. Use a low level tattoo and watch it power grow."

NCB. Not the NUB. the NUB is designed to make your tattoo reach 95% of the top spot. When you can use your own NCB character, or a friends, to power level your tattoo so that a single NUB can't reach 95% then something is broken.

Either the NUB, or Tattoo leveling.

It's also the reason Tattoo's can't level when higher than your MTL, and why Jon lowered the MTL after the NCB was released.

The bonuses are not intended to be a method of power leveling tattoos. Just like it wasn't intended to get them power levels by transfering them aorund and using other poeples BA.

QBRanger August 9 2007 2:23 PM EDT

GL,

You are mistaken on a couple points.

1) "the NUB is designed to make your tattoo reach 95% of the top spot.".

No place has Jon ever said the tattoo was to reach 95% of the top tattoo. But you can buy a tattoo and use your NUB to power level it. It has been done a few times in the past. Most notably by me is when Mantra did it on this very character. He bought a nice sized tattoo and leveled it very fast. Kittyou did the exact same thing with a TOA. So please do not say that the NUB cannot power level a tat.

2) Also, Jon made the MTL before the NCB. The MTL was made to stop the abuses that were coming from people equipping a high level familiar on a 1 MPR character and getting uber rewards. The NCB was made in response to everyone saying the NUB was unfair and they did not have a chance to make a high MPR character (which was a valid argument).

MTL introduced July 2005. NCB introduced Nov 2005.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 2:29 PM EDT

Already commented on that Ranger. ;)

The MTL was lowered after the intrduction of the NCB. To stop it power leveling Tattoos.

As for your first point. Through out the NUB then. Let a new player buy a big character like they would buy a big tattoo.

the NUB is designed to allow a new player with nothing (and I'm including a base level 20 tatoo in this, as it's as close to nothing with a tattoo as you can get) get to 95% of the top on thier onw, with thier own run through the game.

That would then include getting a tattoo 1/3 of your 95%.

If this doesn't let you get a big enough tattoo to be competitive (as in 95% of the tattoos you face...), as the ones you face have been power leveled, then *something* is wrong.

I've realy not got much more to say on this, It seems like I've been saying the same thing in just aobut every post I make in this thread. :P

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 2:31 PM EDT

I think GL meant that the NCB was lowered, not created, after the NCB was introduced.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 2:39 PM EDT

I would like to add that I agree enabling inflating your tattoo would destroy the RoE, and persoannly I like the RoE more. ;)

The choice is this;

In every fight you have the option of adding some extra XP toy our team. Either you use a Tattoo and gain that XP on a non permenant (to your character) item.

Or you use a RoE and gain that XP permanently to your charcater, at the loss of gorwing a tattoo.

Trade offs.

If Tattoos could be inflated, there would be no trade off, and as RD and Ranger say people would just always fight with a RoE and equip a pumped defensive Tattoo.

That would truely suck.

QBRanger August 9 2007 2:41 PM EDT

It will not let someone get a tattoo to 95% my level, since i was lucky to be able to insta my tattoo. But if I did not insta and grew this tattoo from level 20 from the beginning, it would be close to what % MPR is reached by the N*B. Let a NUB insta his/her tattoo after their NUB is over. But, if they use a tattoo from the beginning instead of the ROE, then their tattoo will be at an appropriate level in the area they are fighting.

Whether the N*B is too low is another thread. We all agree that it is. J

But look at NWO's and Tezmac's tattoos. No instas ever done as far as I know and they work just fine for them at the top. About 2.5-3M levels. What is wrong with that? I fail to see why things need to be changed.

Very high level tattoo are very rare, now it seems people want to make them commonplace.

Solution, as people always as for this:

a) Remove the ROE, let people level tattoo like us old guard did.
b) Increase the N*B, give them the chance to reach 90% or 95% of the top MPR while using a tattoo.

Tezmac August 9 2007 2:45 PM EDT

Other than the ROS freakin' stinks, yeah, you're right. :O)

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 2:48 PM EDT

I will try to become a mediator and illustrate where the debate between Ranger and GL stands now...

GL: "Tattoos should be able to catch up to 95% of biggest tattoo with NUB in order for owner to compete with top characters."

Ranger: "If N*B allows character's MPR to reach 95% of top MPR and equipped tattoo can be leveled to compete with *most* tattoos, everything is just fine."

Is that correct?

QBRanger August 9 2007 3:04 PM EDT

Basically my position, yes.

The top tattoos have been power leveled by NCBers. However there are only 2 real tattoos leveled like that.

One needs to disregard these 2 tattoos when typing about what makes an appropriate tattoo for where one is fighting.

The fact the MTL is a bit higher then where tattoos would be normally still allows that rare opportunity to use a NCB or NUB to power level a high level tattoo. A rare thing but still a possibility. What is so wrong with that, keeping things the way they are?

Just take a look at the highest tattoo page:

1 x 4.5M
1 x 4.3M
4 x 3.3M to 3.6M
4 x 3.0M to 3.3M

So there are just 10 tattoos over 3M. What is so wrong with someone growing a tattoo from 1 MPR to 2.7M or so? What is so broken?

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 3:25 PM EDT

Ranger, I'm not sure I understand this whole "NWO and Tezmac's tattoos are just fine". Bigger is ALWAYS better. If not, why did you insta? Why didn't you stick with "just fine"? That's where you lose me... You have had plenty of "just fine" scenarios. TAB, as a character was "just fine". You traded up. Your tattoos were "just fine". You insta'd up. The DBs you had were "just fine". You still paid a lot for DAWG's, also making sure I could not have them.

If you and I swapped tattoos (my tattoo is also in the "just fine" realm, I would say), would I be able to beat you? Would a 4.4 million level MM for me and you with a ToE more easily overwhelmed change the course of things? It might. It would at least make _some_ non-trivial difference.

If your main argument is simply that everyone's tattoos are "just fine" (easy to say when you have the largest, whether you worked for it or not), then that isn't much of an argument at all.

So that clearly puts trading-up directly in the spotlight. And if the ability to trade up were free and clear, I would say no special tattoo changes would even be remotely necessary. But high-end gear is hard to come by. And high-end gear (including tattoos) is part of being around a while. While the letter of the law may not state that a new player should be able to attain 95% of "total greatness in CB-land", the spirit of the law at least has _something_ to do with that sentiment. Instas and buying big characters cannot realistically be considered an option for all new players, because there just isn't enough big gear to go around. You already HAVE the big gear, and whether you "worked" for it or not is immaterial, since at least some of that "work" was from outside means -- USD.

I have no such illusions about my character, username, or USD expenditures. I am not "worth" any more and am entitled to nothing more than someone who is new, someone at 500K MPR, or someone at 1.5 million MPR. The N*B has set that tone, and I have accepted it. Longevity is NOT the only thing to strive for any more. Sure, longevity is nice for the community aspects of CB: being a good clanner, a good poster, a good mentor, maybe becoming an admin or QB -- I have achieved my goals from a CB-community standpoint. I am entitled to absolutely nothing else. I spent USD, and I DEFINITELY accept that that was a workaround, lame aspect of my character. That's why I tried to spend the bulk of my cash (about 90 million $CB) on something that could not be held onto in a relative sense -- MPR. I agree that the bonus needs raising -- I WANT my MPR to be attainable, because I cheated when I spent cash to get it. Not cheated in the game sense, but cheated to myself. I am actually glad that I can't hold onto what that cash bought me (well, that is assuming the bonus gets fixed here at some point), because as I said, I am not entitled to hold onto that no matter how long I have been here or what I have accomplished while here. I don't tend to believe in legacy-related entitlement, especially not in a game.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 3:28 PM EDT

One more point -- Ranger, your facts are sound, and you are keen on pointing out the two top tattoos that are aberrations... I am not sure why you are so quick to dismiss them as so aberrant as to be ignored. It is far from unprecedented that aberrations lead to change, up to and including radical things like rescales. *smile* I don't expect you to realize that, however, since I do not think you were around for any of the CB1 rescales. I myself was only privvy to one of them, young whippersnapper that I am. *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 3:31 PM EDT

"One needs to disregard these 2 tattoos when typing about what makes an appropriate tattoo for where one is fighting."

Why?

That's like saying back in CB1 "One needs to disregard the x26 Elbow when typing about what makes an appropriate weapon for where one is fighting."

QBRanger August 9 2007 3:31 PM EDT

Well we certainly differ in that aspect. I believe that longevity should amount for something.

However, of course bigger is better. But... is it better when everyone has the same? If everyone had a high level tattoo, why have tattoos in the first place. There has to be some differentiation between players.

There are only a certain amount of super high tattoos-2 in the whole game. I was lucky to get one of them. LD got the other.

You want to make it so everyone can have one? Fine, why not just give everyone the same MPR character. Let them buy xp on their character up to 95% of Koy. Same principle as tattoos are like another minion or xp on your character.

I still do not get why the current system is so broke it needs to be changed.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 3:42 PM EDT

I think the reason Ranger got a chance to have the tattoo is because he has been around for a long time and grabbed an opportunity when it presented itself.

If you have a "just fine" tattoo and a top tattoo is available, you will grab it, especially if you have been around for a long time and are waiting for such an occasion.

That is the advantage longevity and dedication should provide: Being around when the opportunity presents itself and being able to jump on it.

Having a small, finite amount of 'more than just fine' tattoos should be considered a normal thing. They will all become available eventually. Players that have been around and are waiting for them just have to jump on the opportunity when they become available.

That is the way things currently work and I find nothing wrong with it.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 3:48 PM EDT

I apologize for not making clear how important I think longevity is. I still feel very proud every time I see the QB by my name, especially since I haven't done a whole lot to deserve any sort of recognition lately. I am also proud of my contributions to the forging community, as well as friendships I have here.

What I meant to say was that longevity is not a yellow-brick road to entitlement when it comes to game mechanics. As I said, the N*B has established quite the opposite ideal. It's a new paradigm that Jonathan established. If you disagree with the paradigm, then you should disagree with ALL of it. You can't be halfway about it. Either the game design strives for giving a new player 95% of EVERYTHING, or it should give zero. Saying a new player is entitled to 95% of one aspect, but only X% of another doesn't makes sense in my eyes. I would find your stance more consistent, Ranger, if you just said you thought the bonus was rubbish in its entirety.

One other aspect of your language is confusing me now... A few posts back you talked about the "work" you put into characters and tattoos. Then, in your more recent message you say you are lucky to have your current massive tattoo. Which is it? Do you feel you have worked for it, or that you are lucky? If it was luck, then new players should get the same chance at that luck, or at least 95% of it. *grin*

QBBarzooMonkey August 9 2007 3:54 PM EDT

This discussion is reminding me a lot of the NUB discussions back when it was new, in the Fall of 2005.

Sut's point about a rescale made me remember a specific post that illustrates that it isn't so far fetched, and may be a factor in Jon's thinking when he posted the poll about this.

My point to posting this is to say that from Jon's Game Designer point of view, with his stated goals for CB as a whole in mind, which can be found throughout the archives, the current state of thing just might be broken... I'm just speculating, but here it is (JuJuLizard was me at the time):


JuJuLizard, September 30 2005 5:00 PM EDT
If this game had a finite time frame, and a winner could be declared, then your point wouldn't be lost. But in an ongoing, evolving game like this, if there was no way for anyone to catch you "for as long as you maintain your dedication to the game ", you eventually you would stop being "the best", and simply become "the player with a monopoly on the top spot". Eventually, everyone who can't ever get there loses any interest at all, and the loss of competition keeps trickling downhill until there's no one left but you.

But at least then you'd get to eat all of the crab puffs and get the biggest trophy at the winner's banquet - oh wait - there isn't one, is there - I'm confusing this with of a bowling league </sarcasm>

Isn't that kind of what started happening with CB1? At least that's what I've gathered from all of the "remember when" posts...


AdminJonathan, September 30 2005 5:01 PM EDT
exactly, juju

QBRanger August 9 2007 4:05 PM EDT

I have "worked" to get my character and tattoo where it is. But I was lucky to get the uber tattoo I was able to buy. So it is both luck and dedication. They can exist together it is not white or black.

QBRanger August 9 2007 4:13 PM EDT

Also,

While I disagreed with the NUB for quite a while I have come to sort of accept it.

However it still has massive problems.

First, right now it is far too low.
Second, how to titrate it when you must now use a ROE for most of it to get near the top. How do you compensate those that use a tattoo from the beginning, other then they have a nice level tat. It is now essential to use the ROE to get a possibility at 95%. If you do not use the ROE your well below 85%. If Jon makes the N*B so that you do not need a ROE to get to 95%, then those using one will possibly get over 100% of the top MPR.
Third, if they can get to 95% of the top MPR, then they theoretically can pass the top MPR buying minions, which I do not believe should be possible.

Until these problems can be fixed, I am not fully for it. I understand why it needs to be in action. However I still think it is far too short in length for how long CB2 has been active.

Having a tattoo get to 95% of the top tattoo is wrong since the top tattoo has been through a few hands and super leveled by high MPR NCBers. You need to base the "top tattoo" as what one would be IF it was on Koy for the entire duration of Koy's existence and never moved/loaned/power leveled. By letting people get to 95% of Koy's tattoo belittles the hard effort people put into get it this high.

Let others power level high level tattoos and get one this high. Or have others try to make me an offer for Steeds that I cannot refuse.

Why do we have to have everything equal? I thought effort should have rewards and payoff.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 4:14 PM EDT

Just wondering...

The main problem seems to be that tattoo XP is not considered in the equation of the NUB bonus.

Then why not modify the bonus so it considers the XP invested in the biggest tattoo owned by the top character's user?

QBRanger August 9 2007 4:18 PM EDT

Tattoos do get a bonus from the N*B. It is the fact that there are 2 tattoos that skew the equation makes it bad for the N*B to be different for tattoo experience.

If you give tattoos the chance to be 95% of Koy's tattoo, then it really diminishes the time and effort people like PoisoN, Tezmac, Bast, etc.. put into their tattoos.

Their current 3M tattoo will be quickly surpassed by NUB's or NCBs.

Fine you say, lower the MTL. That is one solution. But why change things when they really are not broken. At least they appear fine to me.

QBsutekh137 August 9 2007 4:21 PM EDT

OK. I personally see running an NCB as lot of work (especially if one slugs it out to get 25-30 million in cash first to buy BA), and would say it is definitely more work than buying a larger character and/or insta-ing up tattoos. And neither really has anything to do with luck. Over a long enough period of time, one will always get the "luck", especially if one is willing to spend large amounts of USD when the "luck" arrives.

Ranger, it might be best to just agree to disagree on this, since I am thinking our definitions of work are (perhaps wildly) different.

Barzoo, thank you for the salient post (I couldn't find anything that wonderfully-specific). That completely crystallizes, at least for me, the spirit of the N*B -- to let a new player catch up in ALL aspects of the game, not just piecemeal.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 4:52 PM EDT

Ranger, what would you say to a new player who started today, when they see the 3 mil to 4 mil tattoo's and ask how thier ToA tank can compare to a 3 mil+ ToA tatted tank?

QBRanger August 9 2007 5:40 PM EDT

GL, i would say the N*B is too low but if you get a tattoo right now, start to level it up, not miss any BA, you should be able to fight without your final MPR with a nicely leveled tattoo. Or you can use the ROE and hope to get a higher level tattoo later. A choice you as the player needs to make.

Just like I tell people when they see my MH, start small and work your way up. Do not get frustrated by seeing all the high level tattoos and items. If you play cb long enough, you could acquire the same.

Just ask ignignokt. I told him almost the exact thing and guess what, he gets the fact older players have more and that CB is a long term game not to be "won" in 4 months. He also knows that with the NUB he will get a fantastic start to the game with a nice character and stash of cash/items if he plays smart.

I would never tell them they will get everything they hope for in just 4 months like other people see to believe.

CB is a long game, no ending. By long I mean years, not months. People need to be patient and play the game.

Stop trying to make everything doable in the first 4 months. Let some things take a while to achieve. One day my tattoo and some other high ones will be available. My god man, let us old players have something to brag about :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 9 2007 5:57 PM EDT

"Stop trying to make everything doable in the first 4 months."

You should direct that at Jon, not me. ;)

QBOddBird August 9 2007 6:10 PM EDT

Obviously this could all be solved by getting rid of the ToA.

*grins*

QBRanger August 9 2007 6:11 PM EDT

Jon is not. Did he rush to change how the tats level? Not yet. The N*B is flawed, greatly as a previous post pointed out, but the idea behind it is not. Good intentioned, flawed design. But I have no idea personally how to make it foolproof against my points posted above.

But posts like this show me what others believe.

Advocating paying for levels is one of these "I want things now" type of posts. Instead of being patient, waiting for an opportunity to insta all the while growing your current tattoo, people want things immediately. Well is it good to give them everything right away?

ignignokt August 9 2007 6:24 PM EDT

I've been playing online multiplayer games for for 10 years, which is pretty much half of my life (I'm 22). And by playing, I mean like 20-80+ hours a week, it's an addiction. I think that I have a pretty good experience with most games that I've played. I believe that although games are vastly different in how they are played and who plays them, etc.. that they all have some underlying things.

1. There are 2 types of people usually.. the ones who come on to socialize, and then the achievement orientated people who put a majority, if not all of their effort into getting to the highest level possible.

2. This leads to competition among the achievement people as well as the socializing people who tend to try out the achievement aspects but generally aren't that good due to their time spent socializing and not reverse engineering the game's mechanics.

3. Frustrated ex-socializers or competitive achievers _always_ cry out for nerfs (reducing things that have an affect on the power of the people or person at the top), this is usually an attempt to make up for their lack of a deeper understanding of the game.

4. Most of the time, the squeaky wheel gets oiled (the whiners get the nerf that they seek out) which results in the people on top leaving and the game as a whole suffering.

5. The whiners become the people on top and new people become a different set of whiners and the cycle continues.

Obviously I'm new here and aren't as experienced as many of the people here but it does seem that it is difficult to get a N*B to a high enough MPR to powerlevel a high level tattoo. People seem to go to great lengths in order to achieve a few precious things such as a high level tattoo or a big MH, etc. People should be rewarded for their time spent and energy spent to learn how to play a game on a level that is higher than most other people.

I know that it seems hard to get to the top, and the people on top seem to be impossible to reach, etc. However, the people on top honestly put a lot of hard work into it and deserve their work, trying to take their justly deserved achievements (non-N*B for the most part) is just wrong and none of you would like it happen to you. I think that if things were achieved unfairly and if it were made more difficult for newer people instead of easier than it would be fine to call for a nerf, but this is not the case. I just poured my sweat and blood (as well as wrists via carpal tunnel) in order to get to the top and would hate to see that diminished.

Getting rid of other's accomplishments or making it a lot easier for others to achieve would ruin the fun of the whole game.

ScY August 9 2007 6:47 PM EDT

Well said!

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 9 2007 8:42 PM EDT

Judging by the reply, I think Ranger misunderstood my idea...

I wrote: "The main problem seems to be that tattoo XP is not considered in the equation of the NUB bonus."

Meaning that the *top character* tattoo's XP is not taken into account in the equation that determines the NUB bonus. Maybe it should?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 10 2007 1:14 AM EDT

Excellent idea, but too hard to make work.

What happens if the Tattoo is unequipped and you make a new character?

muon [The Winds Of Fate] August 10 2007 5:19 AM EDT

What about instead of paying cbd to upgrade the tattoo, you could spend BA? Like, the tattoo artist could take 100 BA off you for every .. I dunno, 1000? ... levels of the tattoo to level (but not past the MTL, obviously).

Thus, there is a tradeoff: grow my character and my tattoo, or greatly grow just my tattoo.

And since there is a BA cap, this is in effect, a cap on how much USD spenders could raise their tattoo; let alone the fact that they would have to choose between leveling their tat or their char...

Just a thought...

QBJohnnywas August 10 2007 5:57 AM EDT

Hmmm, that's pretty cool idea Muon, that's the kind of trade-off that makes sense.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 10 2007 7:42 AM EDT

"What happens if the Tattoo is unequipped and you make a new character?"

Only the top char is considered. And the tattoo used in the equation is the biggest tattoo in possession of the character's user (not the character itself). It should make no difference if the tattoo is equipped or not. The mere fact that it can be used by the top character should be reason enough to consider its XP into the NUB bonus equation.

It would make sense because why would the top character's user use any other tattoo than the biggest one in his/her possession?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 10 2007 7:47 AM EDT


Because he can use a RoE?

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 10 2007 8:19 AM EDT

If the user owning the top char uses an RoE instead of his/her biggest tattoo, you can be 100% certain that it will only be to attack. The big tattoo would definitely be equipped for defensive purposes. Else that tattoo would probably get sold for tons of $$$.

Regardless, if you are the top character, it makes no sense to use an RoE instead of equipping your biggest tattoo to keep making it bigger and conserving your advantage (unless this "$ for tattoo levels" thing passes or course...).

QBRanger August 10 2007 9:10 AM EDT

I personally use my tattoo instead of a ROE since I want my tattoo to grow. If we can pay for levels via the TA, I certainly will use a ROE for attacking most of the time to boost my minions and pay for Steeds to be levels via cash.

Since paying for levels via the TA would certainly give me a large advantage, why would I be so against it? It is not right for the game.

ignignokt August 10 2007 9:18 AM EDT

I hate to have to be frank here but everyone else is skirting around the issue it seems. Talion, to be honest, your points have seem to be changing and are pretty vague which makes your argument pretty incoherent (at least in my eyes).

I'm not here to troll or flame since I haven't been here long enough to really get to know many people. I feel like something like changes to tattoos whether it be decrease in MTL, ability to pay CB$ to level it, or any other changes to tattoos would significantly change how CB is played and could cause a lot of people to quit. Therefore, I'm asking for a detailed, thorough and concise explanation of what changes you propose and why such changes should be implemented. Also, it may have been said over the course of this post but a reiteration of the points, consolidated into one post would be a lot easier to read than have to search through a thread of nearly 100 posts in which many people express their ideas. I feel like this is a modest request from the people who feel passionately enough about changing something so profound and wide sweeping as tattoos.

sooka August 10 2007 9:26 AM EDT

"Getting rid of other's accomplishments or making it a lot easier for others to achieve would ruin the fun of the whole game." - ignignokt

But you still have to make the game appealing for the new players so that your player base continues to grow. Not many of the "achievement oriented" type players you describe, ignignokt, would come into a game where trophies are already hoisted and hopes of having a chance to compete to the number 1 spot are a mission impossible.

The real challenge is keeping those that have been supporting the game since day 1 happy with those that are newly enticed by the game. You have to maintain some sense of order, but in order to keep the game fresh, interesting, and appealing to new players... some sacrifice has to be made somewhere. Honestly, a single round that has been running for 2 years is testimony enough to how well run this game is. Most games of this genre have to end and start from zero on a round/age based system in order to survive. It's refreshing to find one where you can continue to grow and not worry about that sort of thing.

And from the last few days of breezing through the forums, the N*B seems to be where all the action should be taking place. (and I agree with Ranger's post about how new characters HAVE to use the RoE... and it's frustrating, hehe).

sooka August 10 2007 9:29 AM EDT

*happy, ALONG with those that are newly enticed by the game.

Spawn August 10 2007 9:32 AM EDT

(off topic) 100 posts...here we are ;) what ever the weather i will be prepared!

QBRanger August 10 2007 9:37 AM EDT

Very true sooka,

However what fun it is when you get everything in 4 months in a game that has been active for 2 1/2 years.

If new players in 4 months can get a high level tattoo, 95% of a super leveled tattoo, 95% of the top MPR, all the nice weapons etc..., what impetus is there to continue playing.

To use a bad analogy, it is like the NUB is a drug and when it ends you get withdrawal syndrome. That is why most of the NUB's sell out, at least that is how I see it.

There has to be some goals that are more long term. Let us not make everything too easy for new people to do/get.

Spawn August 10 2007 9:43 AM EDT

i agree with ranger on this one, whats a game if you conquer it in 4 months? whats left to aim for after that, thats where people will loose interest and leave...at least if there is something to aim for it gives new players a challenge and something to stay for, rather than handing them everything in 4 months when people have been playing for years and have worked harder to get these nice big weapons and tattoos and other things.

Spawn August 10 2007 9:46 AM EDT

lose* that happens every time

QBRanger August 10 2007 9:49 AM EDT

Exactly my point.

Sure, give them something to accomplish and get started in 4 months. Give them a nice character and some money to get rolling, but gosh sakes, don't give them the farm.

Make some goals in this game long term.

Making/getting/buying/intsaing to a large tattoo should be one of those long term goals.

I was lucky enough to find a superhigh level tattoo, others can do the same. When Jayuu was selling his tattoo, it was in the forums, anyone could have bid for it. And do not make this a USD thing as others with USD could have instad to it. As soon as I saw it in the forums, I jumped on the chance to get it. Nobody else did.

ignignokt August 10 2007 9:54 AM EDT

I think it's about patience, 2 years for a run of a game may seem like a lot to you but the I've played 1 game that I beta tested 5 years ago, another game I started playing 10 years ago and it was around for a few years before that, and the most recent MUD that I played has been running since 92 or 94 I think.

I'm a NUB and I know that there are some items that I really probably never have, that is unless I put a lot of hard work and time into it and I'm fine with that. When I first came here, I was actually surprised how helpful this game is in terms of helping out newbies with not only advice but through the NUB.

I don't know, perhaps I'm just an old school gamer in some respects. I remember a time where people had to work hard for what they achieved and didn't always have to be #1, the top 10 was fine with them, etc. I can understand that it is frustrating to see people on top with very nice items, a strong character, etc. However, I don't think that NUBs stop playing because they are discouraged about not being able to have the top tattoo. It seems to me that the thing that is hurting growth here is the lack of advertising or some way for people to hear about the game. I only found out about CB2 from a reply on an obscure post on digg.com about old school gaming.

I'm not saying that advertising is cheap, but I have seen games that have adopted donation policies that gave slight/unique bonuses for people who donated to the game. This has raised enough money for a game with an active peak population of 40-80 people to have some pretty heavy advertising on websites such as Keenspot, Penny Arcade, we've had comic artists draw comics about the game, and even have a group looking into making the MUD into a graphic-based MMORPG.

Sometimes, the issues are a lot deeper than skin deep. It seems like the main argument for changing tattoos is that it would help NUBs stick around, etc which would lead to a bigger population. I think that's not the case at all and that very few NUBs care that much about tattoos. Look at me, I've only been here for like 3 weeks, have a MPR of about 570k and I haven't used my tattoo except for defensive purposes. The necessity of using a RoE (due to a non-realistic NUB bonus as far as exp goes) hasn't even made me want to give much thought about tattoos.

Therefore, I feel that either the NUB bonus needs to increase in either % exp or in duration. I've been doing the right things, had a bunch of help with items being lent to me, great pay plan deals, I've had a pretty strong strat that has always allowed me to have a 100% CB and I've been gaining roughly 23-24k MPR per day. However, I don't feel like I'll get anywhere close to 95% of Ranger's MPR. It's not because Ranger is so powerful, it's because my NUB won't be enough since I won't be able to keep 100% CB (which is what I need to be able to reach that 95% by gaining the same exp). Having to run a top ranking clan, use a named RoE (since my second day) and get 100% CB seems like about as much as you can ask someone to do (besides using nearly all of their BA (I miss a little because of sleeping, heh) ).

Anyhow, to conclude my "rant". I feel that this whole "tattoo issue" and how it affects NUBs is more of a sense of entitlement that seems detrimental to the overall health of the game. I believe that other issues such as increased advertising/exposure of the game, change to how the NUB works (especially at higher MPR levels where it is very difficult to maintain 100% CB), and the need to use an RoE instead of a tattoo are a lot more significant than any possibilities of tattoo imbalance (which seem to be slight at best).

Relic August 10 2007 10:06 AM EDT

I would make one suggestion on this point. The MTL will _always_ be above your tattoo if you level it from base. So therefore, I propose a change. If you level a tattoo from base, have your MTL and the tattoo grow at the exact same rate. If you have a tattoo above your MTL, then do not allow it to grow until they are equal and they grow equally. This way if you choose to use a RoE, then you have to buy a larger tattoo later. If you equip a tattoo for defense and a RoE for offense, you would sacrifice the equal leveling and there would grow a chasm between your MTL and tattoo level.

BTW, I just made a NCB and have been leveling a RoBF since base and let me tell you, it is growing fast, but it is seriously below my MTL already, by the time my MPR gets to 1 million, it would be way below it and would force me to trade up, which I do not feel should be required.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 10 2007 10:07 AM EDT

ignignokt you wrote: "I hate to have to be frank here but everyone else is skirting around the issue it seems. Talion, to be honest, your points have seem to be changing and are pretty vague which makes your argument pretty incoherent (at least in my eyes). "

First of all, my position is the same as was in the beginning: I like the way the NUB works right now and I am completely against paying to level tattoos.

However, it seems that since people voted in majority for the later, I am proposing alternative solutions in a desperate attempt to prevent such a thing.

To understand how my idea would affect the NUB bonus, I suggest you read the Changelog in order to be able to really give factual comments on my idea.

You cannot affirm that my idea is "vague" without knowing what the actual N*B bonus equation is. GL for example knows the equation and, although I had to repost my idea in better wording, understood it perfectly.

Talion [Axis of Evil] August 10 2007 10:11 AM EDT

Glory, I think you are virtually proposing the same thing as GL when he created this thread.

sooka August 10 2007 10:14 AM EDT

There has to be some goals that are more long term. Let us not make everything too easy for new people to do/get. - Ranger

I wasn't implying instant gratification in my post. I've been here nearly 4months and am NO where near having everything ;) I did work hard to get what I have got so far though, and it has been a very fun, sometimes interesting, ride thus far.


QBRanger August 10 2007 10:37 AM EDT

Well it is likely academic now.

The poll is over and we will just have to wait and see what Jon wants to do.

lostling August 10 2007 11:19 AM EDT

dont only think about those with bonuses... think about those without any bonuses...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 10 2007 7:14 PM EDT

"Glory, I think you are virtually proposing the same thing as GL when he created this thread."

Well, one half of what I was proposing. And the half I prefer. :P

/bow

"Exactly my point.

Sure, give them something to accomplish and get started in 4 months. Give them a nice character and some money to get rolling, but gosh sakes, don't give them the farm.

Make some goals in this game long term."

Explain how Ranger?

If the Bonus doesn't get you, and your XP based equipment to the top (well 95%), then how, if the Top keeps playing, can a new player *ever* achive anything? How could a new player, with equivalent effort to you, who reaches say 70% of your MPR and less than that of your tattoo ever hope to reach, let alone pass you, after the bonus period finishes?

That the bonuses exists is moot. It's a seperate issue. They exist. Thier reason for existing is backed by the games creator.

In *this* single instance, the bonus doesn't live up to its design.

So how is the game 'fixed'?

You say there isn't a problem, please explain why.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002BPi">Tattoo's are the anti-nub. ;)</a>