If you really want to fix the clan system (in General)


QBRanger August 12 2007 12:53 PM EDT

Just make it so nobody in the top 15 MPR can be in the same clan.

That way fighting will occur among the top players.

If someone jumps into the top 15 and is already in a clan with someone else in the top 15, the automatically get booted and have to find their own clan.

lostling August 12 2007 12:58 PM EDT

lol top 15... guess thats a good idea :)

Ragatag August 12 2007 1:40 PM EDT

sounds fun

Mem August 12 2007 1:48 PM EDT

Personally, I don't find this a suitable fix, if, indeed, a fix is needed at all. I don't know about all of you, but if I was in a clan for, say, a year, and then I hit 15th MPR and got booted from it I'd be mighty upset. All that hard work put in for a negative outcome would really hold many people back. It'd become almost something of a hang up for new players in the top 15.

QBRanger August 12 2007 2:32 PM EDT

Mem,

I never said it was the solution I would like to see. But with all the people bitching about clans, and wants things handed to them on a silver platter without having to put time and effort into things, this is one solution that much just shut people up.

stoner14 August 12 2007 3:35 PM EDT

It's not fair that new and lower players want to be able to reach the top.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2007 3:43 PM EDT

Stoner, was that a question or a statement?

Ranger, nice non-PG post!

AdminNightStrike August 12 2007 4:51 PM EDT

Ranger, there's a difference between "wanting things handed on silver" and "wanting things to be in the realm of possibility".

You always declare that anyone suggesting a change to shake things up is a bottom feeder, always searching for welfare and opposed to working hard to reach the top. That's just plain not true, and it's really starting to bother me.

We all know your skills in the game, and no one is questioning that. The fact is, however, that there are an every-decreasing number of ways to overtake the #1 position.

Everyone fights 648 fights a day, zero fights during money time, and 324 fights during xp time. It's exceedingly easy to do so these days, so you have to maintain that just to break even. Try as I might, I have yet to find a way to get more than 24 hours in a day, so fighting is out.

Challenge bonuses are a thing of the past once you get near the top. I have I believe the best PR:MPR ration of 2.0:1.8. Even with that, I still need to be able to fight within the top 5 to start getting a 1 or 2% challenge bonus. When the top 5 or 6 people look like this:

Score / PR / MPR: 2,442,162 / 3,527,541 / 2,423,763

Well, it's just not mathematically possible anymore to make challenge bonuses a reality. I held onto mine for a VERY long time, but it's gone.

That only leaves the RoE and the Clan Bonus to narrow the gap to the #1 position. The clan bonuses max out at 15%, so even given your change, it's still only going to be a small margin for a bonus above the top ranked players.

The RoE is a flat 23% bonus if you can find a way to build a character that can use it. Minus the clan bonus, that yields a difference of 8%. That's 8 xp extra for every 100 xp between us. With an average of 320 XP per battle, that yields about 207360 xp per day for a non-RoE person and 223949, or a gain of 16,589 XP per day. Using myself as an example, there's an XP difference between our two characters of 76,039,275 XP. At this rate, it would require 4,584 days to tie you, or about 12.5 years.



This is why things need to change, whether it's the clan bonus, the roe, the N*B, or the way that base rewards are calculated*. It has nothing to do with undermining your accomplishments. It's simply a rudimentary fact of the game that when things become static, things need change. Who would want to play a game where it's impossible to accomplish what others have? Why do we even keep playing, if it's only to wait until the guy in front of you quits so that you can take his spot? That's not a game... that's just dumb.


(* Maybe this is where we should be looking... at base rewards....)

AdminNightStrike August 12 2007 4:56 PM EDT

For the record, and everyone may find this interesting, here is a list of ranks 2 through 10 for score/pr/mpr. *Everyone* has more PR than score, with The Alchemist having the best ratio:

Score / PR / MPR: 2,714,891 / 3,464,541 / 2,356,929
Score / PR / MPR: 2,610,820 / 3,809,574 / 2,691,703
Score / PR / MPR: 2,579,126 / 3,380,514 / 2,490,603
Score / PR / MPR: 2,490,476 / 2,578,054 / 1,847,222
Score / PR / MPR: 2,464,843 / 3,782,924 / 2,717,796
Score / PR / MPR: 2,442,162 / 3,527,541 / 2,423,763
Score / PR / MPR: 2,374,732 / 3,592,510 / 2,630,774
Score / PR / MPR: 2,299,175 / 2,958,500 / 2,217,394
Score / PR / MPR: 2,272,784 / 3,226,266 / 2,410,251


Maybe what we need is a significant change to how score is calculated and what the effects of the score/pr/mpr ratios really are.

QBRanger August 12 2007 5:45 PM EDT

NS,

I am addressing the clan system here. BR does not have a lock on the number 1 spot.

BR is composed for 4 of the top 10 characters, maybe 4 of the top 7. What if the other top characters formed a clan. Put Freed in there with his massive NW (he is closing in on a top 10 score spot anyway), and let that clan do what BR does with loaning items, etc..

But instead of others making another top clan, or in some cases retraining in order to take clan points from BR, we get this crud type of post saying the clan system is broken.

It is broken only in the fact others do not want to give BR a challenge in normal fighting ways. They would prefer a "welfare" type of system where they get extra rewards for being average.

Like I have pointed out in the past, when BR was not even in the top 5 some days, how many "Clans are Broken" types of posts were there? Zero, exactly none.

Now that BR is back on top, people want to find a way, other then ganging together and forming a competing clan, to challenge us.

PS, Bitching is PG, it was confirmed in a past post, so get over it Sut. Try to keep your jabs at me at least above the kindergarten level.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 12 2007 5:56 PM EDT

the game is out of balance. i think ns is just trying to say that it may not all be clan points, however that is part of the problem. no one can grow at a similar rate to number one, unless they are in the same clan. even if br wasn't number one, then that would just mean that a few others might be on the same curve. they would never really gain though.

koy's score is almost 100 percent higher than the next lowest. argue about the finer points of what everyone is saying, but you have to see that the game is just not balanced in its current state.

AdminNightStrike August 12 2007 6:00 PM EDT

I didn't see that other clan post by Verifex until just now, and thought that this came out of the RoE poll discussion. My bad.


For the record, I think the clan system is definitely broken, but not in a way that's been discussed for a while. What's broken about it is that it creates giant gaps in the score ladder, which really fouls things up big time, instead of encouraging a more even distribution of scores (ie, there are no opponents at all to fight in certain score ranges).

The clan system in the 6 BA range and the clan system as a whole I think are two entirely different beasts. Somebody a while ago suggested a new way to calculated clan points, and Jon mentioned that it would be a good candidate for an upcoming change month. I don't think that ever happened. It was to address, however, the clan system as a whole (as in, to address the giant gaps in the score ladder).


The issue that I mistakenly thought this thread was about had to do with the possibility of raising a char to the number one slot, and I don't think it's currently feasible without using cop-out methods (like when freed went and dumped $554,654,456,768,345,765 into his ELB and used x78543957843 +48935793 ammo). Banning together a new superpower clan so that there are two unbeatable clans at the top won't really address it, either. I'm working on an idea, but it's taking a long time to implement (this 6 BA thing seriously messed everything up, as for a while there I was fighting a better BA set than you). The math I showed in my previous post is making it clear that there's no point in trying to gain MPR ground at all given the current rewards calculation methods.

I wonder what would happen if challenge bonus was based on score instead of PR.................................................. hmm..........

AdminNightStrike August 12 2007 6:04 PM EDT

dudemus, that's a pretty good synopsis.

QBRanger August 12 2007 6:58 PM EDT

Of course people cannot grow faster then the number 1 character as long as that character fights as often as others. What is wrong with that? That people believe that others should grow faster then Koy if they fight as much or a bit less is ridiculous. I guess people think as long as they are not number 1, they should grow faster. If Jon makes it that way, fine.

Koy's score is 2x the next highest, certainly. But there are a few characters that can double tap me and lower it very quickly. Five or Six losses will lower my score over 1 million.

But this is about clans. How are they broken? We want to reward mediocrity by giving more clan points to those in the middle of the pack? Fine, BR will find a way to overcome that, just as we overcame the 6BA regeneration rate.

Then more posts will spew up saying the system is still broken.

stoner14 August 12 2007 7:05 PM EDT

For some people retraining just to beat 1 person in your clan wouldn't be a very good strategic decision ranger. Do you not forget that when you retrain to beat someone it could mean someone else will now beat you, or multiple people?

QBRanger August 12 2007 7:08 PM EDT

Stoner,

Of course I know that.

But instead of moaning that BR is unbeatable, how about trying it?

I know of 3 characters that can beat 3 of us in BR with retraining or tattoo artisting.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2007 7:52 PM EDT

I sure hope I am not one of those three, because you could not be more wrong. Without a wall I can't utilize the ToE/Wall/leech phenomenon.

And anyway, if the only way to beat you is with a ToE, then the ToE firmly falls into the "can't beat them have to join them" definition -- that's definition number one for "imbalance".

And if you aren't talking about me, then Hallelujah! Maybe you finally realized how much of a vendetta I absolutely do NOT have against you are against BR. *smile*

QBRanger August 12 2007 9:02 PM EDT

Enough of this bickering.

If people really truly think the current system is poor, then change it.

I stated my opinions on the matter.

Perhaps another poll may help see who wants what.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 12 2007 9:47 PM EDT

if there is no possibility of anyone in the game closing the gap with you, why would we all continue playing? stagnation at the top will kill the game as surely as anything. we need to believe that we might be able to dethrone you at some point. not for free, nor with an easy out, but with a balanced system that does not keep the number one spot out of reach of everyone else.

when todd was number one, at least there were always those directly below him and even if we knew we'd never be there ourselves we could watch them fighting it out for number one. now all we get to watch is a definitive lack of fighting. we have to now read our forums to see any real fighting!

QBRanger August 12 2007 11:21 PM EDT

Well I can type for when I was in cb1. From Nov 04 till when it died. Well past the Todd being king.

When I played it was Jayuu, Freed and Corporate International. As far as i could remember these were the characters I looked up to.

There was no NUB, NCB or any way for me to catch them but guess what. I loved it. A great game, well thought out (at least better then anything up to now), and great way to interact and meet people. I knew their 15% clan bonus was never going to be stopped.

I knew I would never beat Jayuu's character (Kronos I think it was) but set my sights on the weakest link of the clan. If I could just beat that one, one of the "gods", I would consider my game won. The game stopped just as I was getting close. Do I get upset I could never "catch" them? No freaking way. The game was great and the interactions even better.

All this wasted space debating whether or not a new player should catch one of the top players is something I really never understood. Of course they should not immediately. Perhaps in time, sure, but never anytime soon.

Let the NUB player devote hours/days/weeks/months/years into his/her character. Then catch the top players. There is attrition at the top. People sell top characters occasionally (sometimes to forgers) or just quit and an opportunity develops to get to the top ranks. It seems to me that people now want the quick and easy way. The path of least resistance. I had always thought that was against what CB stands for. If we wanted to let new players get to the top, then why is CB not a game that resets every 3 months?

That would accomplish numerous things. First, remove USD. Why put money into a game that resets this quickly? Second, give new players a chance to compete on equal footing with older players. Even those who do not know the rules can test for 2-3 months and then try after the next reset. Third, stop anyone from gaining and holding the top spot forever. It would guarantee turnover in the top ranks.

But has not Jon stated CB will not do this, signifying this is a long term game. Then why do we want people to get to the top in just 4 months when this game has been active for over 30?

This has always confused me, ever since the NUB came out. In other games, I had to wait and play and try to work my way up the ladder. Why should CB be so different given the above?

Right now, there are a couple of characters that are closing in on the top spot. A bit more AC here, a familiar change there, or other factors can get them there or very very close.

This will be all I will say about the "clan problem", the "ROE" or the "N*B" other then the N*B is way too low for what Jon states he wants it to do, and he should (IMO) raise it quite a bit.

Feel free to debate on, I am tired of this arguing.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] August 12 2007 11:35 PM EDT

I always thought clans were a chance for regular characters (non tourney chars) to compete in a realm outside the PR/MPR grind of CB.

Apparently, and from what I'm hearing from Ranger, and everyone else (who happens to be in these top clans), is that clans should simply be a reflection of what the PR/MPR stat tables have. So, having said that, then just take the clans out, along with the clan bonus. We already know that Ranger is at the top of the score/pr ladder, he has put in a lot of time and energy into the game.

What I've also heard is the scary word "attrition" which means to me, "wait till I get tired of this, then you'll get your turn" What?? What kind of game is that, this isn't a freaking monarchy. This is a game.

Now, if you are like me, you think that as this is a game, there should be winners, and there should be losers. And there should be competition between all the players to see who is the winner and who is the loser. Should the winner be pre-determined for a contest such as competing in clans? From what I'm hearing from all the players in the top clans. Yes, that makes it fun. Okay, what does someone who is not in one of these clans think?

QBsutekh137 August 12 2007 11:55 PM EDT

I am not in one of those clans, and I agree with you.

8DEOTWP August 13 2007 12:06 AM EDT

Yeah, I agree with you Fex.
I think we should take out the clan bonus.. determine a different clan system with a more competitive winner and loser mentality.

AdminNightStrike August 13 2007 12:14 AM EDT

"That people believe that others should grow faster then Koy if they fight as much or a bit less is ridiculous."

Dude, man... calm down. That isn't what I wrote in the slightest. What I *did* say is that there is no way to grow faster, and there is no way to fight *MORE* than Koy, only *equal* to Koy. I never once ever said that someone should fight less often and somehow gain more rewards.

The fact is, however, that the gap is widening MPR-wise between you and everyone else. There is no person at all who is closing that MPR gap, and it has a lot to do with the fact that it is now trivial for you to hit the BA ceiling. Prior to that change, I was maxed out at the ceiling, and you were ever so slightly less -- thus, I was gaining on you. Now, the best I can hope for is to have it not grow any larger, though even that will be restricted by other game factors.



"How are they broken? We want to reward mediocrity by giving more clan points to those in the middle of the pack?"

Again, that's not what I said at all. I'm really getting tired of having everything cascade down into "we want to reward mediocrity." I never advocate that, either in real life or in CB. What I *DO* advocate is, and please follow closely, OPPORTUNITY.

A game where there is no opportunity to excel except based on the decision to quit from those above you is the complete opposite of opportunity. You said yourself that in CB1 you didn't even bother setting your sights on the #1 spot. It's because of that exact thing that we have the NUB in CB2 -- to counter stagnation. When the top spot can't be beat, games stagnate and die.

CB has been stagnating for a long time (hence the 6BA change), and it's not getting better. Is that what you want? Last I checked, you need more than yourself in this game. It's a game between multiple people. You're basically saying in your posts that people shouldn't bother to try to catch the top. Well, then why play? Fight for second place? I thought you didn't want to encourage mediocrity... but yet you suggest that people don't vie for the top. That doesn't make any sense. Look, if we all give up and say "Fine, we can't beat Ranger" and stop playing... then what? What have you really won?


The idea SHOULD be that the higher you go, the harder it should be to maintain your position. In this game, the higher you go, the EASIER it is. That applies to multiple aspects of the game. The rarest weapons are the cheapest to upgrade, for instance. Well... what is the point in that?



To clarify.. so we are all clear...

I DO NOT think that excelling at anything in this game should be easy. HOWEVER -- it should be **POSSIBLE**.

Currently, it is NOT POSSIBLE to close the MPR gap with people above you in rank without resorting to Freed's method.

It should definitely be difficult to close that gap. Definitely. Difficult. Difficult DOES NOT EQUAL impossible.

Waiting until the guy above you decides to quit is not the right answer.



What IS the right answer? I don't know. Maybe changing clans isn't it. Maybe it is. Maybe the reward structure could use some tweaking. The NCB bonus adjustment really only moves the problem, it doesn't address it. Maybe get rid of the 6BA negative challenge bonus exemption so that PR isn't skyrocketing. That would surely definitely 100% help, as then the people who really spend a lot of time tooling their characters to maximize PR would get the highest rewards, instead of the guy with the deepest pockets. I really don't know what would address the situation... What *do* I know is that the game is not getting better, and that's as plain as day from looking at the user data, and what I don't understand is why you can't see that if things continue the way they are, that you won't have anyone to play with.

AdminNightStrike August 13 2007 12:16 AM EDT

"clans should simply be a reflection of what the PR/MPR stat tables have."

er... what?

ScY August 13 2007 1:57 AM EDT

"What IS the right answer? I don't know. Maybe changing clans isn't it. Maybe it is. Maybe the reward structure could use some tweaking. The NCB bonus adjustment really only moves the problem, it doesn't address it. Maybe get rid of the 6BA negative challenge bonus exemption so that PR isn't skyrocketing. That would surely definitely 100% help, as then the people who really spend a lot of time tooling their characters to maximize PR would get the highest rewards, instead of the guy with the deepest pockets. I really don't know what would address the situation... What *do* I know is that the game is not getting better, and that's as plain as day from looking at the user data, and what I don't understand is why you can't see that if things continue the way they are, that you won't have anyone to play with."

Well, adding to the N*B bonus would most certainly *help* to close any gap at all amongst the mpr ladder. Also, this may or may not help, but it is possible that lowering the BA costs may allow people who may not have extraordinary amounts of $$$ purchase BA (mainly NCBers-- no $$$ bonus makes for a big deficit). I don't believe that this will award mediocrity, but, as NS said, make things a bit more -Possible-. The N*B bonus, as Ranger continues to say, needs a boost. Not so much so that it is incredibly easy to get to the top 10, but enough so that it is doable if you buy all your BA and get good challenge bonuses all the way up--- aka fighting smart. As it is now, even by fighting extraordinarily smart (100% Challenge Bonus for 99% of the way and using 99% of all BA) you can only get so far. Exhibit 1: Mikel's NCB.

But to address the clan issue. I do not believe that the clans *need* to be altered. Really, the difference between the top 5 clans is VERY trivial-- its about 1%. --1% !!!!! Thats such an infinitesimal amount that it really makes this somewhat of a non-issue. Sure, if you cannot beat the top 5 players in the game in CPs, or take many away from them... isn't that natural? Shouldn't the #1 spot be untouchable? But wait, before you jump to contest me on that point, hear this. The difference between the top 5 clans is ~1% !! Does it really matter if you get 15% or 14.9% ?? So why not aim your sights a bit lower... again, to something a bit more *Possible* and try to stay in the top 3 clans regularly?

Yes, CB needs a spark to bring it from the so called brink of stagnancy. I don't think that its the clans thats the problem, although Ranger did put forward a viable solution in his thread. Honestly, i think we have blown this whole thing a bit out of scope--- its not even changemonth!

Lumpy Koala August 13 2007 2:31 AM EDT

" get rid of the 6BA negative challenge bonus exemption so that PR isn't skyrocketing"

Now I like that :) Slowing their pace compared to ANY chars is better than just adjusting NCB and force everyone to restart their char.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 13 2007 4:16 AM EDT

NS, that's what I've been saying since I started playing...

;)

TehScat August 13 2007 7:15 AM EDT

Two things from me.

Firstly, I have been playing CB2 for under a month. I played CB1, I remember the gods, I remember Spid and RedDwarf fighting it out, exchanging blows and Spid almost always rising above. In CB2, my NUB has let me rise to 350k score quickly and the (new to me) tatoo system is making my tank very powerful. I've got a solid strategy, I farm all of the SFBM's and MM teams that give a 100% Challenge Bonus. I use all of my BA every morning before work, and all BA from when I get home to when I sleep, including purchased BA, which is free. By November, when my NUB runs out, if I keep this up, I will have a MPR I estimate of well over a million, and give me a foothold into the middle-upper tiers of the game, assuming I develop a strategy to stay competitive. My opinion on the N*B? If you really use it, it can get you close, and that's what its there for. I don't WANT to be closing the top 10 as my NUB expires, I want to work towards that. If a good player could get top 10 with the NUB, the game would be truely broken.

Secondly, the clan system. I don't need to comment on the high-end problems. Down here in the pre-1-mil category, I use my clan for the clan bonus. It fluctuates, we've been from #2 to right out of the top 15 altogether. I keep 1k+ points a day, and can't get many more since there are so few clan members in my range. So, what do I think about the clan system? Its there for extra rewards, when everyone does well. And that simple view works for me, and I think encompasses what clans are and should be more about. You put the effort in, as a whole group, you get the rewards. Now, bicker over BR putting in 10x the effort of everyone else, we all know they do, they deserve #1. Ranger is right in the first post. Want even clans? 15 clans for the top 15, bam its even for 2-15.

Flamey August 13 2007 7:17 AM EDT

Scat, just some info, if you don't know, the NUB is supposed to be able to get you 95% of the top MPR, granted you buy all your BA and use all free BA, blah, blah. Currently you can't do this, the top MPR is almost 3 mil, now 1 mil used to be a lot, but now, it's not even half, which is kind of depressing.

Angel of Death [Hell Blenders] August 13 2007 7:25 AM EDT

i say delet that bonus and let the clan people just have fun with them

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 13 2007 7:53 AM EDT


'Scat, there's an assumption in your post. "I want to work towards that." How? By what method are you going to work toward what no one has (really) managed since Steve/SNK/Avoid gave up their spots? The only one to do it since was Mantra, with a NUB (& some well-rewarded cheating), and we see how well that worked.

The point here is that we all can all always use 100% of our BA and as long as #1 also has a bonus that outstrips yours by .1%, he will outgrow you.

You can try the Jay way, if you've the money and stomach for it. That is: keep starting over with NCBs, dumping money into them every time, purely for tattoo growth. Then start over again, being a single-minion NCB, and have the $X00m standing by to purchase minions. Then you'll have a tattoo sized to your high-MPR team, but (most likely) a weak team. It might take you a year & $X00m x 10 x $6.50 USD, and in the end you will, perhaps, have crafted a team that can take Koy without a double-tap, but you will then (most likely) be score fodder for any number of other teams.

What mathematical possibility is going to allow you to "work" more than any of the rest of us for growth? (Hint: most players these days find that their NUB is about as high as they ever get in the standings, barring attrition)



QBRanger August 13 2007 9:21 AM EDT

We all know and realize the N*B is too low. Instead of fighting over whether clans are broken, how about we put our energy to try to get Jon to raise the N*B to a more appropriate level to give both new and old players the chance to get to the top ranks?

How about it everyone?

I tried a while back, people agreed and nothing was done with it. How about we try again?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 13 2007 10:06 AM EDT

While that indeed needs to be fixed, it's still a diversion fromt he real problem.

As I posted in the RoE poll, if the top spot is out of competitive reach, due to any contributing factors, like the BA regen change, large Tattoo's, Clan bonuses and broken bonuses, then *something* needs to be changed.

Personally, I'd like to avoid CB3 (and even a rescale).

Even if/when the bonuses are righted to 95%, how do we make up the lost 5%? We can't fight more, so what strategic option is left to us?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 13 2007 10:08 AM EDT

Bast, if you truely want Attrition/Endurance Blender, why don't we go back to the dark old days of no BA limit.

Make CB who can click most wins.

QBRanger August 13 2007 10:20 AM EDT

CB is a game of years not days or months.

There are people gaining MPR on Koy without the N*B.

It just takes time, something people apparently do not want to invest.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 10:30 AM EDT

Really? Who is gaining on Koy, and how? And, are such folks using USD to augment their net worth so that they can assuredly purchase all BA?

This is a serious question -- I had no idea anyone could be gaining on Koy... You don't miss any BA, and are in the same negative-bonus-exempt status as anyone close. You are also in the highest clan. Pray tell how someone is closing the gap? Inquiring minds want to know! *smile*

Also, yes, N*B bonus should be fixed. However, that does not take into account the huge tattoo issue, even if there are only two aberrant tats in your opinion. It's all or nothing -- either one embraces the bonus idea entirely (meaning a new player should be able to attain 95% greatness in all things), or one should eschew it entirely. Any piecemeal compromise on that means someone is playing god, and only Jonathan gets to do that here.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 13 2007 10:33 AM EDT

Failure is gaining ground especially if he hires two more minions. ^_~

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 10:34 AM EDT

Point of fact, Ranger, you and I are in agreement until parts of your argument get inconsistent... You WANT the N*B to exist: you like the chance at competition, you have embraced the idea.

But it seems when people try to speak about making the N*B all-encompassing (not just MPR and some cash), you start balking and talking about communism, mediocrity, and longevity being the important thing. Are you for or against the spirit of the N*B which is a de facto stance that a new player should be able to make a 95% crack at the top, in all ways?

If you disagree with that stance, I completely respect that. But then don't ask for the N*B MPR bonus to be fixed -- ask for it to be abolished. At least that way you will be consistent.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 10:36 AM EDT

Draco, yes -- hiring minions is a way of "gaining ground", and both Failure and King of Pain have that option (among others, I have lost track of the singletons out there...)

I wasn't talking about that, though it could be that's what Ranger is referring too, I suppose. When most folks refer to gaining MPR ground, they aren't talking about buying minions.

QBRanger August 13 2007 10:41 AM EDT

Those using the ROE are gaining ground.

Failure and Mikel can gain a lot of ground hiring 2 more minions.

You took the top spot before you started to forge.

Hiring minions was the way Mantra got Cosmos to the top spot so please do not say it should not count.

Conundrum can gain a lot of ground hiring 2 more minions as well.

The top spot is obtainable.

Now please get over the tattoo issue. There are 2 large tattoos raised by the N*B when it was a decent level. The next highest is 3.6M. There is no need to base a tattoo N*B due to 2 beefed up tattoos. By doing so, one diminishes the tattoos of NWO, Tezmac, and B Ark to name a few.

Perhaps we should have a cheaper BS cost for lower level items since it seems nobody can get a 200M MH. What about making it 50% of the normal cost to upgrade for the first 150M or so? Sort of a N*B for items.

Why stop there, let us put in a N*B for money since NS has over 150M. Why not base the N*B for money based on his stash. We know new players can never get that much money but should they not have the chance to get 95% of his money, Let us be equal shall we? All in the interest of letting new players obtain the top in months not the years the older players have been active.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 10:51 AM EDT

Ranger, relax. There is nothing I need to "get over"...we are just talking here, OK? *smile*

I do, very strongly, feel the top two tattoos need to be taken into account. They are the definition of "top". I am trying to remain consistent when I say a new player needs ways to achieve 95% of ALL "topness". No, I don't have it all figured out on how that can happen, but isn't that one reason why we are all talking about it?

As far as the ways people can gain on you: Yes, the RoE can gain on you. But you can use an RoE too. Please don't say, "but then I would lose!" That lament is something the rest of us say _every_ _single_ _day_. Your team is one of the very few that doesn't have to make compromises such as, "I can retrain to beat this guy, but then I will lose to these two other guys..." (that is something you never understood about where I had reached with Hubbell). That is not a detraction -- Koy totally rocks, and I have never said otherwise! But I am not sure you are still in touch with the choices other people have to make, especially newer players.

Sorry, I digress... Yes, others can use an RoE, but so can you. So, the RoE is not a way for anyone to catch you. Any bonus has to be of the format: "Something a new player can do to catch up that is not available to the veteran..." Otherwise it doesn't make logical sense. You can't catch someone doing the same thing they are doing.

That leaves hiring minions as a way to catch you. While that may be a current option for a couple teams, we aren't talking about case-by-case examples of how someone might catch Koy. We are talking about keeping CB2 viable as a whole, allowing more new players (because we want new players!!!!) to achieve 95% of CB greatness (that's you! *smile*)

AdminG Beee August 13 2007 10:55 AM EDT

And now for a light entertainment break

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 13 2007 10:57 AM EDT

I love you G_Beee!

Spawn August 13 2007 10:58 AM EDT

Lol.. Legend !

QBRanger August 13 2007 11:06 AM EDT

Sut,

I have been in plenty other game where I was a pion. CB1 for instance. And I never got upset about not being able to catch the top people. At least not immediately. But I knew if I played a lot, I may get into the upper ranks.

But, if you want to make things equal for everything, what about NS's money stash. Should not NUBs have a chance to get 95% of that. Of course not, but where does the "attempt at equality" stop.

How about we try to raise the N*B to an appropriate level, then see how things go/progress?

Also, If Mantra had to buy minions to get the top spot, what is wrong with others having to do the same?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 13 2007 11:12 AM EDT

"But I knew if I played a lot, I may get into the upper ranks."

That's not possible in CB2.

It wasn't in CB1 either, and is the reason for CB2 creation.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 11:22 AM EDT

You make very good points, especially about your own personal stance on "how things work". I, too, had no top-level expectations for CB1...it was fun just to play.

However, the system that has been established here is such that a new player has a better chance. If we already take that as read, then that's that. In my personal opinion, from there you have to allow a 95% level in ALL things.

To do that, you don't look at separate characters and take the "Best of" from each. That won't work, because you might have a case where one person concentrated ALL on a huge tattoo. Someone else may have concentrated solely on MPR. Another on NW, another on cash, etc. etc. You can't look at each separately because that would be like looking at a multi. *smile*

You have to look at the opportunities afforded someone starting from Jan 1, 2005. And the two biggest things in CB-land are MPR and tattoos (as far as things that naturally grow with battles. Net worth is definitely something that needs to be considered, and yes, it is hard to quantify (this issue is not a simply problem, hence the volume of discussion).

As I already said, I don't have the answers. How does one give a new player a shot at 2+ years of play? How much is too much, how much is too little? All of these ideas are merely to give Jonathan food for thought, since it has already been established that CB is a place where a new player can make a decent run. My main goal right now is just to make sure people stay on the same page (with the following examples being my personal page):

-- CB has been developed so that a new player can reach 95% of the "top".
-- That top should include all aspects of CB, in a gestalt fashion built by the answer to the question: "Where would a Jan. 1, 2005 veteran be right now?"
-- Break down the issue from there, trying to think of ideas to add that bonus to the game.

Your ideas and questions appear to be on that same page at the moment...

48Zach August 13 2007 11:32 AM EDT

"Where would a Jan. 1, 2005 veteran be right now?"

There is plenty of them scattered around.. Some have 1.5mil MPR, some have 2.5mil MPR.. It just happens to be that a Jan. 1, 2005 vet is in the #1 spot.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 11:39 AM EDT

Clarification: the ruling about the bonus, as I understand it, is to give a concomitant chance to a new player in a shorter time period. Here are examples to illustrate.

If a 1/1/2005 vet used 100% of all BA and reched X MPR: a new player who uses 100% of the BA (albeit in a shorter time period, that's the whole point) available will achieve 95% of that veteran's MPR.

If a 1/1/2005 vet used 50% of all BA and reached X MPR, then a new player who uses 50% of BA (in the shorter time period), will have 95% of that veteran's MPR.

All the bonus is, essentially, is time compression. That time compression is getting to be a more and more touchy subject as time passes, because compressing two and a half years into 4 months starts to look stranger and stranger (to some).

Recently, some people have brought up other aspects of the game that a new player should "have a crack at". Things like tattoos. The problem is, tattoos are trickier because they can get handed around. Does one try to let a new player reach 95% of the top tattoo with their tattoo? Does one allow buying of levels? Change the MTL? Rescale tattoos? Lots of options involving lots of emotions from folks...

It's a tough issue, no doubt about it.

48Zach August 13 2007 11:55 AM EDT

That's true.. Good way to put that

QBRanger August 13 2007 12:27 PM EDT

Sut,

My opinions about the N*B have changed from the beginning, however there are problems:

1) the idea of being forced to use a ROE to get to the top

2) the ability to buy minions to increase your MPR even more after the N*B is over

3) the short length of it. It should be longer to account for the fact CB2 has been out 2 1/2 years.

I think we all agree the N*B is too low. However, tattoos should be as if the top person had the tattoo on them the whole time. Using the super leveled tattoos is just not right/fair from my point of view on the matter.

The clan system should be separate in that it is a bunch of characters fighting together. The number 1 character could be in a clan with lower MPR characters and they could be out of the top 10. But in this case it is not that way. Again, why punish the top characters for doing something correctly?

Let us first correct the N*B, and see where characters get to.

I would love to see the following occur:

a) The ROE is used only for non N*B characters.

b) The ability to buy new minions is still there but the only option is a 500k minion that gets no xp. Therefore no paying for MPR.

c) Titrate the N*B so that if a new player plays 100% of his battles and uses all of his battle on Tues and Sat on xp time (bought/free BA), he can reach 90-95% of the top MPR, without having to use the ROE.

d) Extend the N*B to 8 months.

e) Leave clans alone, give those who do it well the bonus. Give them something to strive for, to get the top clan spot.

f) Let the needed items such as the HoC and RoE and MgS be available to new players that joined after they were introduced. For a 1 time 6 buck payment to Jon they can get 1 of all the older supporter items.

Instead of more arguing, I am proposing a solution of sorts.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 1:32 PM EDT

I totally agree, and I didn't think we were arguing any more. *smile*

Of all you say, I don't really have an opinion except for 8 months on the N*B... that seems a little long. Maybe try 6 months first?

I still go back to saying the N*B should be a store of BA that the player can utilize, instead of a set time.

48Zach August 13 2007 1:36 PM EDT

New players can get EVERY supporter item for $6?? I don't like that.. No No.. I don't like that at all.

QBJohnnywas August 13 2007 1:55 PM EDT

Hmm, the biggest problem with the clan system is it's reward system; it means that if you're on the path to domination of the character standings then you can't really do without those extra rewards.

That means that it is really important if you're serious about dominating the standings to dominate the clans too. Maximise your rewards and all that...

And, seeing as how we have a bit of a stagnation situation in standings and clans with regard to total world domination why not separate the two? Take the bonus away from clan fighting - make it - for example - a series of cash pots for first, second, third etc that is split between the members of the clan. It's still worth fighting towards, but it becomes a little more like tournaments. Of course to do this you'd have to change how clan points are awarded. Because as has been pointed out BR don't really lose clan points. And then it would still be them getting the pot.

Take away the XP portion of the rewards at the least; so that being top clan doesn't give quite the advantage that makes it so attractive to players wanting to maximise MPR.

QBRanger August 13 2007 2:16 PM EDT

I have no problem just making the 15% bonus apply to money rewards only.

The system as a whole is not that broken threads need to be devoted to it. My opinion of course. However, the difference between first and eighth is only 1.4% or so.

Over time, perhaps a lot but look at it this way. Those at 6 BA regeneration get a maximum of 648 BA a day. 1.4% of that is 9 BA. So basically the top clan gets 9 more BA a day if they use all their BA. We are arguing over 9 freaking BA a day.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 13 2007 2:37 PM EDT

It's the inabiity to close the gap that this affords. NS explained it very well.

For a game *specifically* designed to allow every player a crack at the top spot, at any time in the games life, it flies in the face of design that this isn't possible, due to a combination of issues.

Those issues have been spelt out, no one has tried to deny that together they stop the top spot from being reached.

Therefore CB2 isn't working as designed. The exact same problem that was alive in CB1, that caused the creation of CB2 is still here and has not been eradicated.

I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Do we accept that CB2 *should* allow every player a chance at obtaining the top spot at any given moment of CB2 lifespan, and work out what the problems are and how to fix them?

Or just wait for the announcement of CB3.

drudge August 13 2007 2:53 PM EDT

that would be interesting having the top 15 players rep 15 diff clans

Adminedyit August 13 2007 3:05 PM EDT

"For a game *specifically* designed to allow every player a crack at the top spot, at any time in the games life, it flies in the face of design that this isn't possible, due to a combination of issues."

Just thought I'd throw my .02 cents in here.

1. Little Devils character was a NUB and is now 3rd in MPR.
2. Mikels character was a NCB and is now 10th in MPR
3. Both Ranger and myself have characters that were either a NCB or a NUB and were boughten from someone else.
4. Failure has passed me in MPR and I DO NOT MISS ANY BA.

Just from #4 we can see that it is possible to gain ground on someone.
As for the clans, we have 4 of the top 10 in MPR in a clan. We SHOULD be hard to beat.

QBRanger August 13 2007 3:09 PM EDT

As I stated, the only true way for a game to make sure the top spot rotates FAIRLY, is to reset itself every so often.

Otherwise, what incentive is there for the top players to continue playing if they know those below are getting a lot more bonuses.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 3:31 PM EDT

They get a continuous supply of challengers and a reason for existing.

What you just questioned is the very reason I would think a high-ranking veteran would WANT lower players to get bonus, not vice versa, and it is a sentiment I have known you to have yourself (at least in the past).

Has that sentiment changed?

ScY August 13 2007 4:24 PM EDT

One would also hope that the new tournies would give a little bit of incentive to everyone... you don't have to be in the top 3 to win a tourny.

ScY August 13 2007 4:25 PM EDT

That is, the top 3 in MPR (non tourny)

QBRanger August 13 2007 4:28 PM EDT

But if I start a tourney near the end, do I get a N*B to help me go straight to the top in less than 1/4th the time?

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 4:33 PM EDT

Tournaments are on short schedules with a new one around every corner. If Jonathan reset CB every week, there would be no such thing as the NUB.

I'm pretty sure you already knew that, too.

ScY August 13 2007 4:38 PM EDT

Aren't we coming up with a solution to the N*B now?
I was simply adding a form of incentive for players to keep logging in, other than the community, which is fantastic. I did not mean for a metaphor to be created between tournies and the current issue.

TheHatchetman August 13 2007 4:39 PM EDT

and you do have to be at the top MPR to win a tourney... This one at least :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 13 2007 7:22 PM EDT

Ed, the bonus isn't based on you. You sohuld be easily passed for someone working at the equivalent effort of the top spot. Unless you're 95% of the top spot that is.

As for yourself, how can you ever pass Ranger? Use a RoE? What happenes if Rangerdoes that too?

How can you make ground on the top spot? Is it possible?

QBRanger August 13 2007 8:45 PM EDT

Who ever stated that the goal is for someone to pass Ranger?

I never saw Jon type that. I have seen him type that he wants someone to get 95% of the top MPR via the N*B, but never did I see him type that he wants someone to pass me.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 13 2007 8:53 PM EDT

well, a game that has one top spot that is not beatable is great for one person and kinda sucks for everyone else. it is pretty much just good software design to want to make the majority of users happy even if it is at the expense of a few. rather than making one happy at the expense of many.

we could be wrong though and jon designed the game just to make one person feel that they really accomplished something.

ScY August 13 2007 9:37 PM EDT

95% of Ranger is CERTAINLY enough to challenge his strat thats ~2.8M MPR. Ranger had to alter his strat to beat everyone-- even people who were 600k MPR behind him. Why do you need to pass him... sure, if you grew a two minion team to 2.8M MPR, and then had 100M CB to blow, you could hire minions to surpass his MPR, but really, 95% is PLENTY to challenge for the top spot.

Mem August 13 2007 9:53 PM EDT

I, for one, still have fun with this game, even though I know I will certainly never pass, or even come close to, Ranger. There are many other facets to this game aside from score and being able to beat everyone. Heck, I even take pleasure in getting to the next page on the MM charts...

QBRanger August 13 2007 10:27 PM EDT

Like I typed before, in cb1 I had a blast knowing I would never challenge for the top spot.

It seems most people doing the complaining are those that tried but failed to get to the top.

Getting and having the top spot should be something that is very hard to do, and not something easily gotten.

AdminNightStrike August 13 2007 11:20 PM EDT

"Getting and having the top spot should be something that is very hard to do, and not something easily gotten."

No one disagrees with that. In fact, it's been most posters' points all along. The thing is, it's not something that's very hard to do. It's something that's impossible.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2007 11:44 PM EDT

Lol...nice generalization, Ranger: "It seems most people doing the complaining are those that tried but failed to get to the top."

Seriously, back it up...back up the statement I quote above instead of just shooting your mouth off. List the folks "complaining" that tried to get to the top (prove their intent was to reach the top), failed (describe how they failed and prove they will never make a comeback), and then substantiate that is the reason for their "complaining". By the way, the word "most" in your quote means that you need to show that more than half of the folks involved in whatever discussions you are referring to meet the criteria of top-striving, complaining failures.

A retraction of the statement as unfounded FUD would also be entirely acceptable.

horseguy001 August 14 2007 12:02 AM EDT

I have fun at CB knowing taking the top spot is impossible. It's fun to grow a strat.

However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like the chance. How much more fun would the game be if I was actually playing for something other then more mpr? I'm sure the fun in knowing the only difference from day to day is going to be some additional mpr is going to lose its touch.

Sure, the NCB gives you a chance, but you better have some serious $$$ sitting around. With the Space Knights, I used most of my BA refresh and always bought BA on bonus exp days, and maybe hit 40% of the top mpr. Discouraging at best. Not that I want it to change, as the top spot shouldn't be easy to get, but it shouldn't be so misleading.

Flamey August 14 2007 3:34 AM EDT

"sure, if you grew a two minion team to 2.8M MPR, and then had 100M CB to blow, you could hire minions to surpass his MPR, but really, 95% is PLENTY to challenge for the top spot."

N*B is broken, it's IMPOSSIBLE to get to 95% even with a RoE.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 4:33 AM EDT

Lol...nice generalization, Ranger: "It seems most people doing the complaining are those that tried but failed to get to the top."

QFT Sute...

If you're aiming that at me Ranger, I'll never reach the top. But that's my choice.

I enjoy creating new strats and growing them from nothing. When they get established and just become part of the endurance 'grind' it bores me. Which is why I love the inception of the NCB.

But, I also enjoy the theorycrafting of CB, which has nothing to do with any of my persoanl characters, nor how good or bad they do.

QBRanger August 14 2007 6:55 AM EDT

Well Sut, you did take the top spot.
Exactly the same way Mantra did. Using a N*B and then buying minions at the end.

So.... the top spot is obtainable. The N*B is too low so it cannot be done now. This has nothing to do with the clan system as you yourself took the top spot NOT EVEN BEING IN A CLAN for part of your N*B.

So why are you spouting about the clan system being broken when you personally took the top spot?

Could it be your own bias towards clans as you professed many times in the past?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 9:30 AM EDT

so...you are saying it is only possible (when the n*b is working as intended) with a massive infusion of usd at the end of a bonus period. this is another assertion that many of us have had since the inception of cb2 in that the game is broken because of the fact that usd trumps all...experience, time played, etc.

QBOddBird August 14 2007 9:33 AM EDT

I have an assertion.

Nerf the ToA and bring world peace.

Then you guys will be able to get along. *nods*

QBRanger August 14 2007 9:46 AM EDT

No Dudemus,
Please do not put words in my mouth like you seem to do quite often.

If a NUB saves up, I am certain s/he can have enough money at/near the end. Just look at how much money NUBs are making now that they do not have to buy BA.

One in particular is making close to 1M CB2 a day. Just look at how much money NUB's sell out with.

Please do not think if the NUB was raised, with careful planning, they would not have enough money to buy more minions.

But then again, perhaps we should make it very easy for someone playing as much as the top players just to take the top spot. Anyone starting and playing as much as the top players (myself included) should have an easy time taking the top MPR spot just by playing every 7 hours or so for only 4 months. Seems very fair to me.

With the BA regeneration change, no longer is it needed to wake up every 4 hours to burn BA like the "hardcore" players like Mikel used to do with his N*B. Now you can easily play and, according to people like you, take the top spot.

QBOddBird August 14 2007 9:58 AM EDT

"just by playing every 7 hours or so for only 4 months"

I would like to make the tiniest correction, at the risk of having my head snapped off by the amount of tension in this thread, that that's under the assumption that a player is at the 6/20 BA regen for 4 months. With the current N*B, they'll hit that in the last month, and if it were fixed, probably in the 2nd month. They'd still have to do the 4 hour thing for a short period of time, and then 5-6 hours, etc...

*backs out of the dangerthread*

QBsutekh137 August 14 2007 10:01 AM EDT

So, I can't really tell: you are talking about me with the quote? I certainly didn't assume you were referring to me, since I don't meet the criteria of ANY of your assertions:

Assertion 1: I tried to take the top spot: Nope, sure didn't. I have, at this point, told you at least a couple dozen times, publicly and privately, that I never cared about being able to beat everyone, or even having the highest MPR. My goals were simple, and I achieved them. If you would like me to elaborate on those goals further (AGAIN!) I will (Hint: it involves my massive DM!).

Assertion 2: I failed at my goals. Since I achieve my goals, I couldn't very well have failed, could I? After reaching my goals, I had a blast down at the forge and even helped generate forging spreadsheets and metrics that are still being added to the Wiki.

Assertion 3: I am complaining. Just earlier in this very thread we were actually having meaningful dialogue. No complaining, no negativity, just ideas coming out. That doesn't sound like complaining to me...

Assertion 4 (new): I am complaining because I hate clans. Wrong again. If I just felt like saying "clans are stupid", I would have said "clans are stupid". Pretty simple, there. No, I thought Verifex's points were well made, and I was respecting his decision to discuss. I do think the clan system needs work, so I agree with him. End of story on that one.

But please feel free to keep telling me why I do things and how I am experiencing the situation. Makes you look like an idiot, and I have to admit -- I enjoy that.

So...back to the point: who were you talking about? Sorry, you didn't answer my question. Who are "most of the people" you are referring to? Or are you just shooting your mouth off with no backup?

I assumed you were referring to GL (thread about tattoos) and Verifex (thread about clans). Neither of those upstanding gentleman has ever had aspirations on the top, and they are valued members of the community. You reduced their contributions and opinions to dirt by lumping them in with top-striving, whining failures (a list of which you have yet to produce). That's insulting. I like GL and Verifex. I like them a lot. If one of them left tomorrow, I would feel the loss and be sad. So yeah, I am going to defend them against baseless, hurtful, and (worst of all) casual generalizations.

That's dangerous and deplorable, Ranger, and I think you should be ashamed of yourself for being so careless.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 10:03 AM EDT

ncb's do not get a money bonus. so that would only work for nub's. this means that a nub would have to know enough out of the gate to plan so carefully for cb2 world domination.

methinks the only ones capable of this would in fact be multi's. once again this supports the fact that the current system is broken.

i cannot tell you the cost at 2.8 mill mpr to get a minion, but at just under 2 mill mpr with my single it would take over 33 mill to add each minion. that would be 100 mill if i wanted to maximise my mpr. i barely grow any longer with my cash buying all ba, therefore usd is the only way to go. at ten bucks a mill then, for $1000 usd i could get my max mpr capability. i really have no idea where that would put my mpr wise.

i think most of the ones complaining, at least for me anyway are not really concerned about us reaching number one. i have been playing the game since march '03 and as you so aptly put it have had many failed runs at the top. when cb2 was announced it was lauded as the "fixed" version of cb. certain things were promised and we all made the sacrifice fo cb1 to get here. again, speaking for me, it seems that the new system is just as broken, or possibly even moreso than the first. perhaps i am feeling a little buyers remorse.

QBOddBird August 14 2007 10:07 AM EDT

"ncb's do not get a money bonus. so that would only work for nub's. this means that a nub would have to know enough out of the gate to plan so carefully for cb2 world domination.

methinks the only ones capable of this would in fact be multi's. once again this supports the fact that the current system is broken. "

Youthinks wrong. ^_^ I believe if ignignokt had been given a decent N*B, his quick grasp of the game and the help he received from everyone would've allowed him to do just that. There *are* cases of new players who quickly grasp the game, allow the veterans to help them, accept the advice, and start shooting through the ranks on that advice...and they aren't even necessarily multies!

QBRanger August 14 2007 10:12 AM EDT

Seriously,

What do you, Sut, GL, Verifex want?

A rotating top MPR spot. Have it for a couple months, then some new player comes in and takes it? Or some vet with a N*B comes and take it for a few days until a new person does.

As I stated, CB is a game of years, not days or weeks.

What is wrong with that? Twice already the top MPR spot has been taken. When it has been, it was a huge thing. Posts made, congratulations given, etc...

By making the top spot easy to obtain, it diminishes its importance. That is if it has an importance to a game like this. I think it does, but others apparently do not. That I guess, is the difference in our thinking. I do not know what Jon thinks but after all, that is the only opinion that really matters.

But like I stated before, if Jon wanted a new top player every so often, would not CB reset every few months then? That would keep the USD element out of things.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 10:14 AM EDT

your kitten's on crack!

either way, the games broken. that is the point i want to get across. it could be many factors...n*b too low, usd trumps all, the top people in game all in one clan, fixed damage mod upgrade cost on weapons with no parallel for mages, multi-minion to fewer minion imbalance, etc.

i have no idea what the main culprit is, i just really want it fixed. more balance for all!

QBOddBird August 14 2007 10:16 AM EDT

and a broken ToA! xD

I'm with ya there, dudemus.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 10:17 AM EDT

If we take a step back from the personal comments being made, I think Dudemus really has nailed the current climate.

"when cb2 was announced it was lauded as the "fixed" version of cb. certain things were promised and we all made the sacrifice fo cb1 to get here. again, speaking for me, it seems that the new system is just as broken, or possibly even moreso than the first."

If (one of it not the major reason) CB1 was stopped because Jon wanted a CB with a level playing field, and not just for the opportunity to add stuff (like tattoos) that couldn't work under the existing structure (and wouldn't allow the transportation of existing characters from 1 to 2, presumably again to level the playing field), then we have a problem with CB2.

Unless we want a reset, rescale or the introduction of CB3 (none of which I look forward to at all), then we must agree as a community that *something* needs to be changed.

The Palying Field isn't level. It's not possible to gain ground. Endurance is rated over Strategy. And the short term boosts of the Bonuses cause ever increasing tension as the lifespan (and long term investments) of CB2 increases.

I don't think there's one simple fix.

But I do see very insightful posts about individual parts of the system that are all casuign and all leading towards imbalance.

Wouldn't it be better for all of us if we concentrated on them, instead of each other?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 10:19 AM EDT

You want to know what I want Ranger?

For a slgind XP scale where the top earns progessibvly less XP rewards (not money) than those below them.

Leading to a struggle to retain the top, and an dynamic shifting of places.

Competiton, and fun to watch unfold.

Who likes stagnation?

QBOddBird August 14 2007 10:22 AM EDT

GL - a Challenge bonus without limit? =D So that at the bottom, they (nonbonus low MPR) have 500% challenge bonus, and come up with us quickly, and then we have a multitude of opponents to fight? This would also allow N*B bonus users to fly through the immediate levels incredibly quickly and get to their stagnation point, and probably get much closer to that final MPR point they are supposed to reach...

just a thought that popped into my head.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 14 2007 10:23 AM EDT


#1, of course. :P

QBOddBird August 14 2007 10:23 AM EDT

Such a thing would bring into play everyone in a much tighter arena, for sure.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 10:26 AM EDT

OB, A brilliant idea!

Combine a Challenge bonus without an upper limit with the removale of exemption from fighting down on everyone, and we're nearly there (for XP rewards, Money can stay as they are).

If you're strategy is good, you raise quicker by fighting higher, and if you can beat the top sot, you gain a challenge bonus (of whatever size) while they retain a penalty for always fighting down).

I like it. ;)

QBJohnnywas August 14 2007 10:28 AM EDT

That sounds good; I like the massive scramble that you get in a tourney, but having that with much more developed chars....yum!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 10:31 AM EDT

it looks good on paper. i think it would be a step in the right direction.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 10:37 AM EDT

You wouldn't even need a 'bonus' if XP was working in a fashion like this. Everyone (if their strat was good enough, and could continue to fight up) would be able to catch up.

Therefore, the whole 4 month condesing wouldn't be required, 'Vets' wouldn't feel so threatened and new players still have competitive reachable goals they can attain.

Really, what are the down points to an XP system like this?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 10:44 AM EDT

What could be kept for New Players is the increased BA. Leave them that for a short amount of time, to give them a little 'wiggle room' to get used to CB.

The ability to mess aorund and not fall too far behind.

Ease them into the rush for the top. ;)

Sacredpeanut August 14 2007 10:47 AM EDT

I've always liked the idea of increasing the challenge bonus cap (and having the challenge bonus affecting XP only), maybe not removing it entirely though as it would be open to abuse but instead increasing it to 200% or so.

I personally think the thing that is "broken" about CB at the moment is rewards at the top level. The combination of the fighting down exemption and the fact that PRs are much higher than scores up the top means that everyone up the top is pretty much on the same 0% challenge bonus regardless of strategy.

I think a possible tweak to the way scores change through fighting (so that scores are higher up the top so that big characters can get some sort of challenge bonus) and the removal of the fighting down exemptions would help fix this.

By doing this you kill two birds with one stone - it becomes possible for a high PR character with a good strategy to gain ground on the top and it reduces the incentive for top characters to clan together - at the moment it doesn't matter that the top characters are clanned together and therefore not fighting each other since they lose nothing by doing so - the characters slightly further down scorewise still give the same rewards.

QBRanger August 14 2007 10:52 AM EDT

It is funny since when I joined CB1 I thought such a system was in place, those much lower, fighting up would get a higher xp bonus then those at the top.

I still would like to see at some level, perhaps 95% of the top MPR all bonus xp stopped and let the people there actually have to "work" (time and effort for all those reading challenged) to eventually take the very top spot.

But I digress. The system is broken when someone cannot in 4 months overcome what others spend 2 1/2 years to accomplish? The clan system is broken since all the top players congregate into one clan, even though they all joined at a low MPR?

This thread started with someone saying the clan system is broken when the main meat of the discussion should be the N*B is too low. This is what I have been typing in the last few of these thread the past couple days.

The clan system is not broken and 4 months is too short a time. But a progressive system of xp from the bottom to the near top would not be a bad idea. Just needs to be titrated so that the top is not reached too quickly. I think we all can agree to most of those points.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2007 11:00 AM EDT

Ranger, I am not talking about clans or top spots any more. I am asking you to back up your assertion:

"It seems most people doing the complaining are those that tried but failed to get to the top."

Please provide a list involving these "most people" (or at least provide some explanation of what you are referring to), so that your assertion can become more than blatant trolling.

This is all I have been asking about since last night. I'm not going to forget you said it or let you off the hook for saying it. It was an insulting thing to say, and you haven't even had the decency to tell anyone who you are referring to!

Talion August 14 2007 11:09 AM EDT

For what it's worth, here is my idea for a possible solution.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 11:09 AM EDT

"The system is broken when someone cannot in 4 months overcome what others spend 2 1/2 years to accomplish?"

No, the system put in place to allow this is borken, when it doesn't allow it.

wheter said system *should* be in place is another topic altogether. It's a system I don't think we need, if other (as mentioned above) things are put in place.

But it esists. It has a Job to do. To let people reach what others have done in 6 months/1 Year/2 Years/ More in only 4 months. That is what it is designed to do. As it doesn't it's broken.

"The clan system is broken since all the top players congregate into one clan, even though they all joined at a low MPR?"

No. That a group of the Top players can all be in the same 'group' getting the largest bonus and not having to fight each other is 'skewed'. If the Top Charcater gets the Top possible XP bonus (through the Clan bonus) then they can't be caught. By anyone.

So, get an other Clan to be top. Not easy when you have to fight 2/3/4 or more of the top charctaers, that only have handfuls of people that can beat them.

That's the problem.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2007 11:13 AM EDT

As for the whole 95% business of the Bonuses. Here's my undersatnding of it.

The Bonus sohuld get you to the top, but get you close enough that with effort (in endurance playing, in Strat choices, in involvement)afterward, you have a shot at taking that top spot.

Even if in the current system the bonuses were adjusted to get back to that 95% figure, you're *unable* to make that extra 5% in any way.

Use a RoE? The Top spot is using one. Clan bonus? the Top spot has the Max.

That's it. There is no other way possible.

There *must* be a competitive way to make upthat remaining 5%.

Can anyone tell me what it is (bar buying three minions...)?

QBOddBird August 14 2007 11:19 AM EDT

"Can anyone tell me what it is (bar buying three minions...)?"

And the harsh reality there is, you *MUST* raise a small (1-2) minion'd team to the top if you want to use that strategy to breach top MPR. No raising a 4 minion RoS team to the top, no sir, not even if that's your idea of fun. Not if you want to be king in this game.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2007 11:26 AM EDT

GL, why are you saying to bar buying three minions? Minion buying is a means of generating MPR, so it should be on the list. You can then dismiss it off the list, but it should start there, as it is definitely a viable means and needs to be considered.

Running a trio from the start and then buying the last minion would add...what, 1/27th of your MPR to your team? 1/3 times 1/3 times 1/3, yes? One 27th of 95% would be: 3.5%. So, that gets you to 98.5%. Having two minions from the start and buying one would yield 1/2 times 1/3 times 1/3, or 1/18th. One 18th of 95% is 5.3%. That sums to just a shade over 100%.

Maybe that is part of the design? If you assume an average distribution of minion number (actually not a good assumption in the current game with all the multi-minion advantages, but still), then 2 is a good average to assume someone might rise with. Buying one minion then takes the 95% to just over 100%, and buying one minion on top of a dual minion team would probably cost around 15-20 million -- not ENTIRELY insurmountable.

In any case, my point is that minion buying should not be discounted, and in fact, cannot be discounted. I wish more aspects of the game worked better for lesser-minioned teams, in fact. Adds to the spice. *smile*

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 2:37 PM EDT

adding minions is a sticky issue. atm it is required to take the top spot and the system seems to be based on that. in cb1 one minion teams got more overall xp than multi minions. if cb2 was that way, then buying minions would be overpowered.

to keep single, and fewer than 4, minion teams viable. maybe we need some kind of retroactive bonus on single minion teams. adding minions would take that away. i have no idea how that could work but it would be nice to have smaller teams be a viable strategy in itself rather than the means to an end.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 2:49 PM EDT

perhaps it could be fixed by not having minion purchase generate xp. have it give you several options, such as:

add a minion with zero xp
add a minion and split your current xp between them at specific ratios

all skills, spells and abilities would need to be retrained but for free.

this in addition to the sliding challenge bonus would resolve most balance issues i would think.

Adminedyit August 14 2007 3:06 PM EDT

"to keep single, and fewer than 4, minion teams viable."

try fighting Failure or Conundrum then tell me that less than 4 minion teams don't work.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2007 3:15 PM EDT

Yes, they work, but building a lesser-minioned team from scratch is not always easy. You can ask them that too. *smile*

QBRanger August 14 2007 3:19 PM EDT

If the N*B was fixed appropriately, the top MPR spot could be obtained. It already had been twice.

If it is so easy to get to the top, again, what would be so special about it?

Fix the N*B, leave clans alone. Stop whining about how you cannot get to the top when with a fixed N*B it has been shown it can be done-TWICE.

Both times buying minions were needed, but those are the choices of CB. It seems some of us want to make things so "cookbook" that any muppet clicking away can take the top spot.

What is so wrong with the top spot being hard to get and a long term goal?
Taking months/years instead of days/weeks to get.

QBRanger August 14 2007 3:20 PM EDT

"but building a lesser-minioned team from scratch is not always easy. "

Certainly let us make things easy for people. It is the American way. Do not work for things when you can have them given right to you.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2007 3:31 PM EDT

If you are going respond to one of my posts, Ranger, could you make it the one from several posts above? Or did you conveniently forget about it?

By the way, yet another nice straw-man troll on your part! You're on fire! I never said we have to make things easy, and I definitely fail to see what the American way has to do with it (I am quite far from being the typical American in any case). I was merely adding to edyit's post to try to offer a balanced view about running lesser-minioned teams, having run one up via an NCB myself.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 14 2007 3:50 PM EDT

"What is so wrong with the top spot being hard to get and a long term goal?"

Why should it be a long-term goal for everyone else? You bought it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 3:56 PM EDT

edyit, when i said fewer than 4 minion teams weren't viable, i was referring to the fact that everyone in this thread has pretty much stated that the only route to the top was by purchasing minions in addition to a fully functioning 95% n*b.

if they were truly viable throughout the whole range of cb2, then it would be possible to have a single minion team in first place. i don't think anyone would suggest that this is a possibility at this point. it used to be so in cb1. i have never seen jon say in the things changing from cb1 to cb2 that it would no longer be a possibility. it does seem to be a given now though.

QBRanger August 14 2007 4:08 PM EDT

Bast, everyone playing then had a chance to buy it.

If it is that bad, make selling characters illegal.

But it is nice to be called a straw man or troll when I disagree with things. Nice way to deflect the conversation from its true intent.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2007 4:26 PM EDT

You have every opportunity to show mow much of a troll you are not. Simply discuss what I have asked about above. Defend your statement about who is doing the complaining instead of simply shooting your mouth off (that's always a good start).

I am not deflecting anything (what would I be deflecting, anyway?). In fact, I am doing the opposite. I am asking for resolution from way back up the thread before moving on. That is obvious to anyone.

Until you back up your insulting statements with fact, they are troll-like statements. This is a fact that is easy for anyone to see. I am right. End of story.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 14 2007 4:36 PM EDT


Sure, anybody could. You did.

It just occurs to me that you, the chief proponent of putting in the "work", of making it difficult, something to strive for, long-term, special, a worthy human endeavor necessitating the back-breaking labor of endless clicking, haven't done it. For all your endless repetition about how it should take effort and super-human dedication, that seems to be "(for everyone but me)".

You took yourself a nice .... long ... sale, then bought your spot. And while you make the "look around, other people spend money too!" claim, how many millions upon millions of that money has been dumped into buying BA and minions? You, it seems to me, haven't seen 10/10 in over 2 years. Nor even 10/20, which should make it quite a bit "easier" to put in the "work".

That's a lot of huffing and puffing about "work" and "investment" from someone who hasn't ever actually tried a N*B. I recall a great deal of "I never got a NUB and I'm doing pretty well" argument. Well, you're doing pretty well for someone whose never worked up from the bottom with an NCB, either. Go ahead, keep telling everyone else they should "work" for what you've got (and it should take a long time, too!).

Same with the tattoo argument, actually. Anyone could have bought the someone-else-did-all-the-"work"-over-&-over tat. But you did. You haven't busted through millions upon millions in BA growing a tat to suit your team, and then brought a team up to meet it.

The "work" is for players-not-you. Given that's your chief argument, that you've put the work in and you deserve your place and everyone should stop picking on you and get to "work", the observation is not really off point.

QBRanger August 14 2007 4:40 PM EDT

Sut,

Call me whatever names you will. Rant as much as you want.

I know my point of view on things and feel quite comfortable with it, thank you very much.

Let us fix the N*B and see how that goes instead of going after this and that and the other thing.

QBRanger August 14 2007 4:45 PM EDT

Very well stated Bast,

You may very well get in a few "words of the day" from Mem.

But let us not forget when I sold TAB it was the top spot, got passed by Mantra. So I did a fair amount of "work".

No need to restart a NCB when I was playing TAB.

I was able to roll the money from my "long" sale into buying Cosmos and most of the items I have now.

At the time I sold Steeds, it was the top tattoo, I re bought the top tattoo and added over 1.5M levels on it. Just like I added over 90M xp onto Koy. More xp then most of the N*B characters have now.

While this and other threads have been for clans and how they are broken, since I disagreed with that, it sure is a nice time to go after me with personal attacks. Again, well done, just like always. Or will you again pull out the dictionary and confuse most of the people with esoteric words that nobody cares about? Just to try to make yourself look/feel superior?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 14 2007 4:47 PM EDT


Which word was too big for you?

AdminG Beee August 14 2007 4:50 PM EDT

Should be enough relevant debate in there somewhere for Jon to pick up anything of worth.

Closed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 14 2007 4:52 PM EDT

i don't really see bast attacking you. pointing out hypocrisy, maybe. she's not attacking though.

however, if i look back at nearly every post by ranger in the two threads regarding clan issues, i do see a heavy amount of sarcasm, antagonism and all around vitriol. this holds true even when no one was really disagreeing with you but making suggestions on improving the game.
This thread is closed to new posts.