Bow question (in General)

QBRanger August 20 2007 4:19 PM EDT

Here is the skinny

Vs Conundrum who is a 20 dex mage with this evasion: Evasion: 830,842/649,096 (102) I never hit in rounds 1 or 2 of missile.

My EC is over 3 Million effect so his defensive dex is below 0.

My archery is 1.0. I have a +120 Named Mageseeker bow AND +5 named arrows.

I know there is a less chance to hit in early missile rounds but should not I hit at least 1 time?

Can anyone smart help me with the math and let me know where I am misthinking things?

QBRanger August 20 2007 4:28 PM EDT

Also, no DBs are involved.

Jake the Snayke August 20 2007 5:17 PM EDT

I do not understand any of that but I wish you greater success in the future

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 5:28 PM EDT

He also has an AoI, that gives 10 more Evasion, correct? In rounds 1 and 2, his Evasion effect would be well over 120, but arrows get +3 pth per +, right? So, your effective pth is 135. He's probably over that too.

The dexterity is the weird part. You reduce his defensive dexterity to nothing, and still have thousands working for you. That should, at the very, very least give you that, what, 65% chance to hit.

The only thing I can see is that he has enough Evasion left over that it eats away at your dex too, but I thought that went away when Evasion level started being used as defensive dexterity.

Check out the PTH Wiki page and crunch some numbers. That does a much better job of covering everything, though I am not sure about the ranged multipliers on Evasion (I keep forgetting those).

And I too wish you greater success in the future. *smile*

QBRanger August 20 2007 5:29 PM EDT

I thought that EC reduced the defensive dex from evasion before multipliers.

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 5:45 PM EDT

Even if it didn't you should still get him. Isn't the multiplier in the first round something like 3? Your EC would still crush 830K * 3.

Adminedyit August 20 2007 5:48 PM EDT

"He also has an AoI, that gives 10 more Evasion, correct?"

I could be wrong but I thought that the +10 it added stacked with DB. If thats the case it would add the exp equivalent to his evasion right? and not a straight up +10 to evasion.

Adminedyit August 20 2007 5:54 PM EDT

sut quoted from the changelog "Max bonus to evasion during ranged is now 3x (was 4x, briefly). Bonus is reduced to 7/3 and 5/3 in rounds 2 and 3, and of course back to normal in melee."

so yeah it was 3.

QBRanger August 20 2007 6:11 PM EDT

So my question persists.

His def dex is 0, so I should have a 150% to hit, minus the early ranged penalty.

My PTH is now 155, and his evasion + AOI should be no higher then 112.

So I should hit in rounds 1 and 2, correct?

QBRanger August 20 2007 6:12 PM EDT

Bows (with maxed out archery) now have 90% base to-hit in the 3rd round of ranged combat, except the ELB which has 100% to-hit. Odds are still slightly lower in 1st and 2nd rounds.

From the changelog. Even if it is 75% chance in the first 2 rounds and 90 in rounds 3 and 4 for the mageseeker, should I not hit at least 1 time?

QBRanger August 20 2007 6:14 PM EDT

Unless of course the multiplication is before EC is applied, due to intent or a bug.

Then the minus to the PTH would be higher even though I would nerf all his defensive dex.

What is the (xxx) for 2.4M evasion?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 20 2007 6:25 PM EDT

What is the (xxx) for 2.4M evasion?

should be between 160-165

QBRanger August 20 2007 6:29 PM EDT

So even then I should hit in the first round and second round of missile at least due to the Dex chance to hit.

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 7:03 PM EDT

Exactly, the dexterity should still let you hit once in a while in rounds 1 and 2, that's (at least one of) the whole point of your massive EC...

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 7:04 PM EDT

I am at this: 1,874,002/1,441,540 (146), so would put 2.4 million EC closer to 155 than 160... It grows VERY slow here, even with a big AoF I only get up around 152 or 154, I think...

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 7:07 PM EDT

I stand very much corrected. With a rented AoF: 2,306,464/1,441,540 (159)

So looks like 160 is about dead-on for 2.4 million, maybe 161...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 20 2007 7:08 PM EDT

i was going by the linked spreadsheet in the wiki. it has been accurate so far for me up to 139 evasion so i assumed it would be accurate on up.

QBRanger August 20 2007 7:10 PM EDT

Now this is another point.

Vs Sut I miss all 4 rounds.

With his evasion being totally nuked by my EC should I not hit due to dex?

I should have a 150% chance to hit from dex.

My PTH is now 140 + 15=155
Minus your 146 evasion is still a plus 9.

You should have no defensive dex, so why do I miss?

Even at 90% chance to hit due to not using the elb, I should hit due to dexterity.

I think we confirmed that EC works before the ranged multipliers. This is one of the reasons behind devoting 2 minions total xp to EC.

QBRanger August 20 2007 7:12 PM EDT

With my mageseeker bow now at 140, vs Conundrum I still miss all the time in rounds 1 and 2.
Vs Hubbell, I still miss all 4 rounds.

QBRanger August 20 2007 7:16 PM EDT


Does EC really effect the defensive dex from evasion?

If it does not, perhaps that can explain a lot of things?

Is this intentional?

QBJohnnywas August 20 2007 7:19 PM EDT

Nah, I was there when Jon said it did work against defensive dex. Unless he was throwing us a red herring!

I can't remember where your dex starts to give you a dex gap hit when your opponent is at zero; but I would expect at least one hit if your EC is at work and the PTH is bigger....

QBRanger August 20 2007 7:22 PM EDT

One would figure that 69,000 dex vs 0 dex would assure one of max dex bonus, which would be 150% to hit with missile weapons.

QBJohnnywas August 20 2007 7:28 PM EDT

Not sure what this adds to the discussion, but I have a +40 SoD, a 1.4 million level ToA (dunno how much PTH that adds..) and +21 iron shot. Gives me quadruple hits against Conundrum's wall, but zero hits against the mage all the way through ranged....

QBJohnnywas August 20 2007 7:31 PM EDT

Ok, double tapping lets me take on the mage directly from first round of ranged. I manage to hit single hits in rounds 3 and 4, but nothing in rounds 1 and 2.

QBRanger August 20 2007 7:33 PM EDT

With +30 arrows (+90 more to hit) I finally hit Conundrum in the 2nd round of missile and hit Sut in the last round of missile...One time I hit Hubbell in the 3rd missile round.

QBJohnnywas August 20 2007 7:35 PM EDT

Sounds like we're underestimating the evasion effect after bonus...

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 8:09 PM EDT

That's insane. I am the last person to stick up for NW, but Evasion should not be making you miss all four ranged rounds, no way, no how.

Rock/scissors/paper is one thing, but to polarize so many things is a bit much. According to this data, it would seem that, if this is by design, only the ToA will allow some decent hitting -- a ToA on a real archer with real dex, large pth on weapon, and some EC to boot. That's excessive. (plus people already say the ToA is too powerful!) So, rock/rusty scisor/paper comes down to:

Evasion/pth/ToA....or something like that. Except pth is sort of left out when no ToA is involved.

I don't mind every attribute having a foil, but things shouldn't be 100% mutually exclusive, almost regardless of hugeness. Yes, I have massive Evasion, but Ranger has massive NW, EC, and enough dexterity to fill the difference. I should be getting hit, without a doubt. Please fix, Jonathan!

Talion August 20 2007 8:49 PM EDT

Answer: Your EC affects the defensive DX, not the PTH effect of Evasion.

I remember reading it in another thread.

So although your EC pulverizes the defensive DX to nothing, the defensive PTH effect of Evasion remains and is also multiplied during ranged rounds.

Like it was mentioned over and over to me: DX and PTH are 2 completely different things.

Lumpy Koala August 20 2007 8:52 PM EDT

hehe Sut, when someone without archery trained at all, that's even worse....

I also want to propose to change Mageseekers from a bow to xbow. Reason: It's supposed to be replacing seeker arrows / bolts , but having it as bow limits it's usage to only minion training archery. I want my UC guy to be able to hit something too... and I am sure bloodlust / evasion type of tank feels the same.

And yes, I have done numerous experiments, +100 / TOA / 600k dex CAN NEVER hit once a 4 minion mage with evasion with roughly my MPR or lower. If my math is correct, the mage should never have enough exp to train too much evasion compared to a 2 minion team like me. By design or not, this sounds broken to me.

QBRanger August 20 2007 8:58 PM EDT


So where is my Dex hits? I have 69k dex on my archer, while my EC takes everyones dex+evasion to below 0.

In my examples, I know Hubbell and Conundrum both have no dex after my EC.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 20 2007 9:01 PM EDT

once you get to net 0 pth any remaining -th cuts into DX based cth.

QBOddBird August 20 2007 9:04 PM EDT

I still say you can kill the ToA's PTH bonus, raise the stats it gives back up a bit, and the crazy Evasion bonus multipliers won't be necessary.

We get a ToA nerf, this Evasion mess is sorted out, everyone's happy.

Nerf the ToA!

Give Forgers some lovin'!

/me goes to find another thread to rant in

Talion August 20 2007 9:12 PM EDT

Ranger, your absolute max DX CTH is 166%. If the Evasion effect and possibly DB effect are high enough, you are not guaranteed to hit in every round. From what I read in this thread the Evasion effect is more 100%. So in the first round, that is over 300 effect.

Even combining your +120 bow and that 166% CTH from DX, you still aren't even close to 300% CTH. Evasion effect wins!

QBRanger August 20 2007 9:20 PM EDT

Yes, but I should have a max dex advantage now given my EC cuts the defensive dex.

Conundrums evasion is: 830,842/649,096 (102). My EC is 3,063,354. So even at 3x his evasion (first missile round) my EC should be more than enough. So if it is as Jon stated, his defensive dex should be 0 vs my archers dex of 69,000----> Max dex advantage.

Now on the Plus to Hit side:
Conundrums evasion + AOI is maximally 112.

My bow is 140 and I use +5 arrows = 155.

So even there I should have +33 PTH.

Now you figure a max dex advantage gives 150% to hit (one sure and one possible hit). ------> Added 183% PTH.

Now I know the mageseeker has a nice minus in the first few missile rounds, even with 1.0 archery. So figure the worst case is 50% to hit, I still should hit Conundrum occasionally in first missile round. I NEVER do now.

I used +30 arrows for 75 more PTH and still could not hit him in the first round

So I believe that EC is NOT lowering the defensive dex as we were lead to believe.

Since that would give him a huge dex advantage, 2.4 million vs my 69k. A negative 150% to hit. I would never hit him.

QBRanger August 20 2007 9:24 PM EDT


I have a massive EC (over 3M) to reduce his evasion (with multipliers) to 0, as Jon confirmed in chat that EC does lower the defensive dex of evasion.

Therefore I have to have a max dex advantage with my archers 69k dex. So I should hit sometimes I would believe.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 20 2007 9:25 PM EDT

Ranger, you are not multiplying his evasion for the pth side in the above post.

QBRanger August 20 2007 9:29 PM EDT


So give him from 105 to 160 as that is 3x his evasion level. Remember it is not 3 x 105 but 3 x the defensive dex then that number is converted to a level.

So his minus is 160 + 10 (AOI) equals 170 PTH

My plus is 155. So he has a 15% deduction from my dex chance to hit.

If I had max dex advantage, which my EC should give me, why do I not still hit him:

150% max for bow Dex Advantage minus 15% = 135% to hit.

I NEVER hit him. The only way is if I do not have the max dex advantage and he does. That can only happen if my EC does not cut his evasion's defensive dex as was stated happens.

Talion August 20 2007 9:42 PM EDT

Ok, that is what is written in the wiki. But from what I am seeing here, that is not what is happening in practice.

The Evasion effect seems to be multiplied directly. Which would explain why you never hit in the first round and sometimes manage to hit in the second round.

Talion August 20 2007 9:44 PM EDT

Also, remember that defensive DX never drops bellow 0. So I don`t know how the CTH % is determined, but if is a differential calculation, a +95K DX advantage might not be enough have the full 150% bonus.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 20 2007 9:49 PM EDT

Ranger is hitting - Evasion: 673,989/401,184 (94) in round 1 so I don't think the (94) is just multiplied by 3 Talion.

Mageseeker starts at 90% with archery (1), not sure what the ranged penalties are in rounds 1 and 2 or exactly how negative to hit effects DX based cth.

Talion August 20 2007 9:56 PM EDT

Ok, I was wrong then. Apologies. That will teach me to defy the almighty wiki. ;)

However, I do not understand what you mean by "negative to hit effects DX based cth".

If you mean, the max negative PTH effect provided by defensive DX, then it's -100 PTH.

If you mean the minimum value of negative DX in the CTH equation, then it is 0.

Talion August 20 2007 10:00 PM EDT

Never mind, I am going to sleep, not making any sense...

No negative PTH provided by defensive DX. Just a proportional reduction. Sigh!

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 20 2007 10:01 PM EDT

DB or the negative to hit from evasion will start to reduce DX based cth once they have got pth to net zero.

eg. DB +100 versus +50 weapon leaves -50 pth which will reduce DX based chance to hit.

QBsutekh137 August 20 2007 10:11 PM EDT

All good points. But as Ranger points out, he is above on everything, unless Evasion effect is tripled (which it looks like it isn't).

So, nothing is really making sense...or did I mis something?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 20 2007 10:17 PM EDT

I don't think Jon has ever posted the exact penalties in the early rounds so we are in the dark there, we could assume they are the same for CTH as for DD damage but we don't actually know.

QBRanger August 20 2007 10:25 PM EDT

In my first example I assumed a 50% penalty, assuming the worst.

If I had a positive chance to hit, which I should if I had the max dex chance, I would get some hits in during round 1 of missile.

It seems my dex chance to hit is very negative.

QBRanger August 20 2007 10:27 PM EDT

Now the kicker.

With my +220 MH, in the first melee rounds I hit him 2 times every times, sometimes 3 times.

Perhaps the multipliers or the nerfing of defensive dex are messed up during the missile rounds.

lostling August 20 2007 10:31 PM EDT

;) i think its time you tested with an ELB ranger

Duke August 20 2007 11:16 PM EDT

800k*3 still do more 1.5M or i am missing something.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 20 2007 11:28 PM EDT

I'm pretty sure you hit me in ranged Ranger... and my Evasion is Evasion: 936,320/532,000 (108), maybe its just due to the AoI or something.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 20 2007 11:33 PM EDT

Well doing some testing... even with my Evasion you rarely hit me in round two and never in the first round. So something else is going on with the evasion multiplier.

QBRanger August 20 2007 11:35 PM EDT

Yes, Draco.

Since my EC should easily nerf 3x your evasion if it is multiplied before EC takes effect (worst case scenario).

Sacredpeanut August 20 2007 11:36 PM EDT

As lostling said, can we get a comparison with an ELB?

QBRanger August 20 2007 11:40 PM EDT

Anyone have an elb that I can borrow that is +130-150?

If so, send it over for a bit.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 20 2007 11:41 PM EDT

Rent that +126 elb in rentals, and add 5 more + to the arrows and that will make an almost similar comparison between elb and MsK

QBRanger August 21 2007 12:04 AM EDT

Well 150k cb2 later:

With the +126 elven long bow, archery 1.0 AND +30 arrows:

I never hit Hubbell in 3 battles in ANY round.

I did not hit Conundrum in the 2nd round of missile in 2 battles. The first missile round I took out his wall.

I tell ya, in missile rounds, EC does not take defensive dex away from evasion.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 21 2007 12:31 AM EDT

So there are problems with the way EC works against evasion... Good to know now. Now to figure out why it works that way.

lostling August 21 2007 1:00 AM EDT

maybe it affects evasion after it x3 ?

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 2:14 AM EDT

"He also has an AoI, that gives 10 more Evasion, correct?"

+20. It confers non-DX Evasion 20387 (20). So it adds 20k to his evasion score, which is essentially nothing.

"I thought that EC reduced the defensive dex from evasion before multipliers. "

After. In round one, defensive DX = normal DX + (3 * Evasion) - EC.

"What is the (xxx) for 2.4M evasion?"

2,385,000 162
2,415,000 163
2,467,126 164

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 2:15 AM EDT

"i was going by the linked spreadsheet in the wiki. it has been accurate so far for me up to 139 evasion so i assumed it would be accurate on up. "

Thanks :)

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 2:23 AM EDT

"DX and PTH are 2 completely different things. "

Be careful to not misspeak. DX adds CTH, and PTH adds CTH. They both add to the same total; they just do it slightly differently.

If Ranger has a max DX gap, he should be starting with a CTH of 150. The Evasion of 164 then brings that to a -14. His +120 bow is then +106. His arrows add another +15 for +121. The naming bonus adds something.. I'm gonnna say +124 / +18, so total should be +128.

Where things get fishy is how Archery works in rounds 1 and 2, and how the base CTH is reduced. Obviously, it's significant. It's very challenging to decipher 1) range penalties, and 2) what Jon actually means by "ARchery 1.0 = base CTH of 90%," as it could be interpretted many different ways.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 2:27 AM EDT

I have a SoD +128 that you could use. It'll let you take Archery out of the equation.

lostling August 21 2007 5:56 AM EDT

i thought it was supposed to be 166% with max difference?

QBRanger August 21 2007 8:08 AM EDT

I believe the max dex chance to hit is 150% with missile weapons, 166% with 1H weapons and 133% for 2H weapons.

Now this is the problem in a nutshell.

Vs Hubbell in missile, even the last round with its 5/3 multiplier I NEVER hit his mage with 1.0 archery, 69k dex, +140 Mageseeker bow and +5 arrows.

BUT... in melee I ALWAYS get double hits with a 2H MH, 93k dex and a +220 weapon.

If you figure 17% less CTH with dex for a 2H weapon vs a bow, my increased chance to hit in melee vs the last round of missile should be:

220 (MH) - 17 (2h vs bow) - 15 (arrows) -140 (MSB) + (about 20 or so, the benefit of his evasion's minus PTH at the 5/3 multiplier if it is multiplied) = about 68 % more to hit with the MH over the mageseeker bow.

So why in the heck do I miss with the bow and always get doubles with the MH?

I suspect that EC is not working vs evasions defensive dex in missile rounds.

QBRanger August 21 2007 8:09 AM EDT

I need to add 1 thing:

in melee I rarely get triples vs Hubbell's mage so my CTH in melee is over 200%.

lostling August 21 2007 8:32 AM EDT

isnt there supposed to be a penalty to accuracy during ranged rounds too? like in general to physical missile attacks?

as i stated above maybe EC is effected after the evasion is multiplied by ranged rounds ;)

QBRanger August 21 2007 8:47 AM EDT

Yes, there is.

I believe in the last missile round I have 90% chance to hit. Even with that penalty, why do I get doubles (sometimes triples) in melee and whiff completely all the time in last missile round. We're typing about less then 100% less CTH with my bow given the worst case scenario.

And even if the multiplication is BEFORE my EC, with only a 5/3 multiplier my 3,070,000 effective EC is more then enough to take his defensive dex well below 0.

QBRanger August 21 2007 8:54 AM EDT

And even if the multiplication is BEFORE my EC, with only a 5/3 multiplier my 3,070,000 effective EC is more then enough to take his defensive dex well below 0.

Actually I multiplied it out and since he does not have a AOF on, his def dex will be about 50k after my EC. That is if the defensive dex is first multiplied then EC applied. With my archers 69k dex, I should have enough of a dex chance to hit to hit him-rarely. But I never do.

If EC works AFTER the multiplication of evasion, that well sucks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 21 2007 8:59 AM EDT

I'm sure EC works after the Ranged bonuses to Evasion.

QBRanger August 21 2007 9:06 AM EDT

Microchips cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3106059)

Now vs Conundrum I do not hit in the 1st or 2nd missile round.

So assume Evasion: 830,842/649,096 (102) x 3 is about 2.5M.

My EC should completely nerf his evasion and due to the factors previously discussed, I should hit in the 1/2 missile rounds due to my Dex Chance to Hit being maxed out.

But I whiff every time, again why?

Talion August 21 2007 9:09 AM EDT

Ok, had some sleep, will make more sense this morning. Thanks for deleting those awful posts from yesterday. :)

NS, you replied to one of my comments with this: "Be careful to not misspeak. DX adds CTH, and PTH adds CTH. They both add to the same total; they just do it slightly differently."

From what I understood from Kong Ming's explanations in another thread, there are 2 parts in every round: The DX CTH, and the PTH CTH.

The DX CTH gives you a max of 166% CTH which, according to my understanding, grants 100% chance to get 1 hit and 66% chance to get a second hit.

The PTH CTH is a straight % represented by the + factor of weapons/ammo. So a +125 sword would allow you 100% chance to get one hit, and 25% chance of getting a second hit.

In the above examples, I am not considering Evasion and DB variants. But I know that their effect cuts into the DX CTH if/when the PTH CTH is completely nullified.

So, assuming I am correct, you need to separate try to determine why Ranger cannot hit in the first round of ranged, make sure you completely separate the effect of DX CTH and PTH CTH.

Soxjr August 21 2007 9:48 AM EDT

I'm completely confused here, but I would like to say that I am now not as happy with my Mageseeker getting to +100. It seems that I still won't be able to hit people with large evasions. :(

QBRanger August 21 2007 9:50 AM EDT


You use a TOA, all bets are off at it seems to make evasion pretty moot with its super PTH.

I am trying to find out why my EC is not working as it was stated in chat.

QBsutekh137 August 21 2007 10:32 AM EDT

Yes, Ranger, you need to stop mentioning the pre-Evasion post-Evasion issue *smile* -- your Dexterity should be substantially larger than your target's in round one of ranged _regardless_ of when your EC casts. You destroy 800K and 2.4 million defensive dexterity equally down to nothing. And your several thousand dexterity gap should then give you a hit (in my opinion).

That is, unless the Evasion and other ranged penalties whittle away at that part of the CTH too, which appears may be the case. If nothing else, it means Evasion is double-dipping -- it gets to be used as defensive dexterity AND whittle into the attacking dexterity if the Evasion effect is high enough. That definitely seems like a bit too much for Evasion to be offering. It should not be able to generate a dexterity gap both ways, as well as having its effect on pth. Good grief that is a lot for one skill to be doing!

QBRanger August 21 2007 10:35 AM EDT

But Sut,

How can it whittle away my dex when my EC nerfs all his evasion, both with or without multipliers?

The reason I brought up the pre and post evasion issue is that I am both uncertain if EC is multiplied before EC applied and to show that in melee when there is no multiplier, things seem normal.

Talion August 21 2007 10:37 AM EDT

Ranger, this is a crazy notion, but what if DX is tied to some other stat like the skills are tied to ST? Maybe 90K DX is nowhere near enough to boost your DX CTH to its max effect even if your target has 0 DX?

In other words, maybe using 90K DX with 3M MPR is just like using 90K Bloodlust with 3M ST?

QBRanger August 21 2007 10:40 AM EDT


As I stated, in melee things seem to work normally as vs Hubbell I get doubles 100% of the time with occasional triples.

My question is: Why can I not even hit him in the last round of missile with its 5/3 multiplier?

Talion August 21 2007 10:43 AM EDT

Maybe because the equation is different in ranged and combat rounds? That would make sense.

QBRanger August 21 2007 10:50 AM EDT


Due to the multiplication the equation is different.

But should evasion get so much of a bonus in missile that even a max dex advantage cannot get a hit in? Is it now that only a TOA or a +250 ELB can even hit an evasion minion in the first round?

Or is it a bug? We had an archery bug before that NS and/or novice figured out.

One would think that the only difference between missile and melee with evasion would be the multipliers assigned to give evasion a missile boost. My EC should take care of most of that from most characters. True, they would get a better (xxx) from the multipliers but my dex advantage should help take care of most of that.

Talion August 21 2007 10:55 AM EDT

Again, you are assuming that you are getting max DX effect in ranged rounds. I am not certain that you are. At your current MPR, 90K DX is virtually nothing. Maybe that affects your CTH in ranged even if it doesn't seem to affect it in melee.

I notice the same thing with my AxBow (+101) and my BoTH (+45). I often miss opponents in all rounds of ranged but still score double hits in melee.

QBRanger August 21 2007 10:59 AM EDT

Well then,

That makes evasion and/or the way dex chances to hit different in missile rounds then melee rounds.

I was never aware of that being the case.

If so, that makes evasion quite the powerful skill. Since only a TOA and/or a hugely massive ELB can score a hit in the early missile rounds.

But then again, if my 90k dex is not enough, why do I still get hits vs Conundrum in the 3/4 missile rounds?

QBsutekh137 August 21 2007 11:09 AM EDT

Ranger, I am saying that even though you nerf his direct defensive dexterity, the Evasion itself then overcomes your PTH, and leftovers again begin eating into YOUR dexterity, whittling it to zero too (so no hit from that).

That is why I call it double-dipping. The defensive dexterity generates a dex gap, and then surplus Evasion itself generates MORE of a dexterity gap. I am not sure how there is surplus evasion, but as has been said, we aren't aure of all the multipliers and modifiers in those early rounds. It looks like your CTH is getting nerfed down enough that there is surplus Evasion left over to take care of it. Voila. No hits for you.

And yes, it is extremely lame, especially any part that let's Evasion count as both defensive dexterity AND surplus PTH that eats into the attacking dex.

QBRanger August 21 2007 11:11 AM EDT

But Sut, when I use +30 arrows to more then overcome his evasions negative PTH, I still miss you in all 4 missile rounds.

Talion August 21 2007 11:15 AM EDT

S137, I think Ranger`s EC completely obliterates the defensive DX in his experiments. Only PTH is left and he has weapons with greater PTH than what the Evasion effect can cancel. That is the part that is hard to explain.

Ranger, I am only making guesses, but yes, I think Evasion is very powerful. An Archer without a ToA against big Evasion is at a definite disadvantage. But again, that is only what I am guessing from personal experience.

lostling August 21 2007 11:25 AM EDT

+30 arrows = +90 PTH ... HOW can you not hit -.- lolz

QBsutekh137 August 21 2007 11:44 AM EDT

Exactly, there are other multipliers/factors/detriments to ranged blows that we don't know, and Evasion might be double-dipping in the dexterity department (acting as defensive dexterity and then also cutting into dexterity's portion of CTH when Evasion has a surplus amount.

I totally agree it is incorrect, and that there shouldn't even be any surplus Evasion in the first place. Ranger should have a dexterity and pth advantage, leading to a clear CTH ability, even in the first round of ranged, even against Hubbell.

I completely reserve the right to say "nerf tanks" once Jonathan fixes or clarifies what is up with Evasion. *smile* There are several teams on my fightlist that could benefit from a change enough to turn the tide on me.

lostling August 21 2007 12:36 PM EDT

nerf TOA fix evasion/EC everyone is happy -.-

QBJohnnywas August 21 2007 12:44 PM EDT

I won't be.

QBRanger August 21 2007 1:10 PM EDT

Now, with another + on the my corn my EC is over 3.1M. With the +30 arrows I sometimes get 1 hit on Hubbell in the last missile round.

I sometimes get hits vs Conundrum in round 2 of missile but never round 1 with the +30 arrows.

QBsutekh137 August 21 2007 1:57 PM EDT

The one thing I would expect to NOT make any difference would be EC getting bigger... It sounds like the ranged multipliers that multiply Evasion's level are bigger than we thought? Otherwise why would raising EC make any difference? We already knew that put the defensive dexterity into nothing (not for me, but for Conundrum...)

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 3:31 PM EDT

"make sure you completely separate the effect of DX CTH and PTH CTH. "

No. They add to the same total. Let's say that you have a +50 weapon and a 50% CTH from DX. That doesn't given you two chances at hitting half the time. It gives you one chance of always hitting. They add together to form a total CTH of 100%.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 3:36 PM EDT

I would guess that the multiplier for Evasion in ranged rounds is quite a bit higher than mentioned in the changelog posts.

How big do your arrows have to be to get a hit in round 1?

AdminNightStrike August 21 2007 3:46 PM EDT

Just did some research... you guys are dealing with 4 rounds of ranged, right? So HOCs are involved? In round 1, the range distance is 5 relative spacial units, which cause Evasion to be multiplied be somewhere between 3 and 4 (estimates are 3.67).

Try that multiplier and see if it makes more sense in your findings.

Further, round 2 should be a multiplier of 3.

QBRanger August 21 2007 4:07 PM EDT

Well if it is 3, my EC should easily overwhelm Conundrums evasion at 830 x 3= 2.49M.

So I should get max dex chance to hit.

My PTH (155) is close to the evasions minus to hit at 2.5M (about 165).

So why do I not hit in at least the 2nd missile round?

And I am using a HOC.

AdminNightStrike August 22 2007 1:19 AM EDT

base CTH is 90% in rounds 3 and 4 with a HOC. It is reduced by some unknown amount in rounds 1 and 2.

The thing with that statement I made is that it's rather dubious. "base CTH is 90%". 90% of what? Does that mean that if a weapon is normally maxed at 166, that it is then reduced to 0.9 * 166 = 150? Or is it the normal weapon base that's reduced from 100 to 90, then added to the hand amount (66) for a max DX CTH of 156? Or is it the hand penalty/bonus that's cut by 90% (66 * 0.9 = 60) for a CTH maxed at 160? The statement is akin to saying that CTH is based on the color blue. It doesn't actually help matters.

Because of that, it makes solving your issue extremely challenging. I think the best you can hope for is that Jon checks the Evasion multiplier to see if it's really 2/3 * Range + 1/3.

On closer inspection, I think the bug, if there is one, may not be with the multiplier but with the bow's ranged penalties. Try with a different weapon. You can use either my giant Exbow or my big SoD. The reason I say this is the following:

Round 1: range 5: 1 attack @ range 4 penalties
Round 2: range 4: 1 attack @ range 3 penalties
Round 3: range 3: 1 attack @ range 2 penalties
Round 4: range 2: 1 attack @ range 2 penalties

Evasion is based on range (2/3 * R + 1/3). So evasion for all rounds is different. CTH penalties are the same for rounds 3 and 4, and you are seeing very similar results for rounds 3 and 4, yes? In other words, things break down on the penalty side, not the Evasion side.

Sacredpeanut August 22 2007 1:45 AM EDT

I'm curious to know if Mikel without a ToA (he should still have 2M+ DX) can hit Conundrum in either rounds one or two. He should hit about the same or slightly more than Ranger in theory (about 70 more pth on weapon but less DX based CTH in rounds one and two since Conundrums defensive DX > Mikels DX in rounds one and about the same in round two). If he does hit alot in Round one and/or two it implies a problem with the way EC is working against Evasion rather than Evasion simply being crazy good.

lostling August 22 2007 1:51 AM EDT

i for 1 can say its nthing to do with evasion being super good... i get pwned by anyone using upgraded arrows -.-

Phrede August 22 2007 6:05 AM EDT

I kill Juggernaut in rounds 1 and 2 of ranged and pwnyboy in round 3. thats with my Mage Bow and normal arrows.

QBRanger August 22 2007 6:07 AM EDT

But you have the TOA Freed.

I think EC vs defensive dex in ranged may or may not be working right.

I also noticed that in rounds 3 and 4 vs Conundrum I now get doubles sometimes.

But I still whiff in rounds 1 and 2.

lostling August 22 2007 8:17 AM EDT

is it possible that 90% CTH = 90% of the total chance to hit which equals to PTH + CTH = total CTH?

Sacredpeanut August 22 2007 8:39 AM EDT

Thats quite possible, infact that's what I always assumed the 90% CTH meant.

TheHatchetman August 22 2007 9:17 AM EDT

""He also has an AoI, that gives 10 more Evasion, correct?"

+20. It confers non-DX Evasion 20387 (20). So it adds 20k to his evasion score, which is essentially nothing. "

Upon experimentation, I don't believe this to be true... Back when I was using Queen Beee, I'd notice that edyit could hit me when i was using a AoM +10 and EG +12. But he couldn't hit me when I would use TG +16, and AoI. If this was correct, then the 20k added to my Evasion by the AoI wouldnt have even given me an extra point, while +12 EGs on top of my natural 2.5m Evasion add 300k to my DX score, which added 7 points to my Evasion (i think...). Yet with no help from an AoI, he would miss 25 rounds straight, and with a 300k boost from EGs he'd hit me every four or five rounds on average...

For this reason, I believe the AoI to add (20) Evasion linearly to whatever total is there...

lostling August 22 2007 9:21 AM EDT

whao if that is so... thats soooo scarry @.@ i may even consider using an AOI @.@

QBRanger August 22 2007 10:59 AM EDT

Even if the AOI adds linearly, I still should have some chance to hit in the 1/2 missile rounds due to my dex advantage. That is if my EC is effecting their defensive dex from evasion as we think.

lostling August 22 2007 11:02 AM EDT

lol then imagine if 20 multiplies linearly during range rounds with evasion bonus ;)

QBRanger August 22 2007 11:04 AM EDT

Perhaps, but what about vs Hubbell who does not use an AOI.
I do not hit him EVER in missile rounds. His evasion at least in the last missile round should be overcome by my EC and PTH.

miteke [Superheros] August 22 2007 11:11 AM EDT

FINALLY!!! I've said Evasion was broken in the past, but without all the number crunching you guys have done it fell on deaf ears. I'm looking forward to the fix for this monster.

QBRanger August 22 2007 11:18 AM EDT

Well in the melee portion of the battle, it seems to be fine.
In missile, with the multipliers, things seem a bit off.

Sacredpeanut August 22 2007 1:14 PM EDT

The problem is, until we see the exact same situation with another character using DX to gain a DX advantage over an Evasion team rather than EC to give a DX advantage we can't be 100% sure that this is a specific EC problem or just Evasion doing its thing.

The thing is, noone has enough DX to gain a significant DX advantage (TOA's excluded) over Conundrum (who has 2.4M defensive DX 1st round and around 1.85M second round).

If you really want to find out if this is an EC specific thing, find a character with a smaller Evasion (say 400kish). Then compare the number of hits you get to say Mikel using the same weapon (but him not using a ToA),his 2M+ DX should be enough to gain a DX advantage similar to the DX advantage you should supposedly be getting through your EC reducing defensive DX to 0. If you get a significantly smaller number of hits then I'd say EC isn't working against Evasion correctly.

I'd say if anythings causing EC to break against Evasion it's the multipliers in Ranged - maybe EC is just reducing non multiplied Evasion DX?

AdminNightStrike August 23 2007 4:19 AM EDT

Here's a data point for you:

Against bamf:

In ranged with a +167 Exbow, I never ever hit in any round. In melee with a UC(154), I always hit once. Talk about being on the verge. Now if we could just get his evasion score......

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 23 2007 5:40 AM EDT

How about this... in ranged with a +152 Axbow And a 2 mil level ToA I hit in the last two ranged rounds... in melee I hit doubles with a +154 BoTH. That is also against Bamf

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 23 2007 10:24 AM EDT

bamf's evasion stats:

Evasion: 1,692,428/1,167,192 (140)

if this is not what you needed, just let me know.

QBRanger August 23 2007 11:14 AM EDT

Draco, your TOA PTH is not broken in missile.

Vs Dudemus:

0/4 hits in missile with my +140 MSB and 1.0 archery and +5 arrows

3/3 in melee with my +220 MH.

Sacredpeanut August 23 2007 11:20 AM EDT

That Evasion is too big to draw any conclusions. Maybe fight someone with quite a small Evasion like Team Untouchable and see how things look.

QBRanger August 23 2007 11:20 AM EDT

And your dex is far lower then even his base defensive dex.
While my Ethereal Chains should nerf all his defensive dex, especially in the last missile round.

Evasion: 1,692,428/1,167,192 (140) x 5/3 = 2,820,713. My EC is over 3.1M effect now.

My PTH on my MSB alone is enough to counter his base evasion. The bolts should counter any bonus from the multiplication to his evasion effect.

My dex is 69k, I should get sometimes doubles in last missile round.

This is if evasion is multiplied BEFORE EC takes effect. Which if it is, make evasion super powerful and EC sort of useless vs missile evasion. The Rock/Paper/Scissors of missile is basically evasion vs TOA in that case.

AdminNightStrike August 23 2007 11:35 AM EDT

"That Evasion is too big to draw any conclusions."

Not really. In the last two rounds of ranged, his Evasion is about equal to my PTH (167*1.03 = 173). My DX is about half of his defensive DX. I'm using an Axbow, so there's no other penalty. That means that my DX should give me about a 31% CTH, so about a third of the time I should score a hit on him in the last two rounds of ranged.

This doesn't happen.

What I *can* do, and I might on Sunday, is upgrade my arrows one PTH at a time and fight him a number of times to see when I finally start hitting.

Sacredpeanut August 23 2007 11:50 AM EDT

"I'm using an Axbow, so there's no other penalty."

From the changelog

"Slings and xbows also have slightly greater penalty to to-hit during 1st and 2nd rounds of ranged (but not 3rd round)."

This says to me that the to-hit penalties in rounds 1 and 2 have increased but the penalty in round three remains the same, implying there is some other to-hit penalty in using an xbow in all ranged rounds. Of course my interpretation of this statement could be completely wrong and it could simply mean there is now a greater to-hit penalty for xbows/slings in rounds 1 and 2 but still none in round 3.

AdminNightStrike August 23 2007 11:53 AM EDT

Yes, it's ambiguous. I'd be sorely disappointed if bows could get rid of the penalty via Archery and slings/xbows could not.

Sacredpeanut August 23 2007 12:04 PM EDT

NS - Maybe try fighting against someone without any pth reduction (no DB/Evasion/AoI and 0 DX) and see what kind of hits you get in Ranged to see if there are any hidden penalties. If you're getting 173PTH from weapon/ammo and is it 166 that CTH from DX based hits tops out at? This means in theory you get 339 total PTH which is guaranteed trips and the occasional quad.

It would be interesting to see if you get close to this in any Ranged rounds.
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