Admin Service 'Moral Issues' (in Public Record)

AdminSNK4R, 12:52 AM EDT

Need a loan? Want a trust-worthy person that you know who won't bail on you? You've come to the right place. Brought to you by the administrator's of Carnage Blender 2 is a loan service that will, hopefully, benefit the community as a whole. By taking a loan out with us, any profit created from interest will go towards hosting additional Admin-related contests as well as fund prizes/money for Tournaments. Want better prizes for your contests and Tournaments? Take a loan out with us! I have created a character called Admin Loans on my account. Loans will be given through the money on the character. The money on the character comes from repo'd stuff from bans/resets, which will be used to offer the community loans. Interested in taking a loan out with us? Post here, ChatMail me, or catch me in chat. Before you do, though, please be sure to have decent collateral in exchange for your loan. Loans will have a 5% initial fee attached. (If you take out $100 from us, 3 minutes later you will owe $105.) Any fees after that are 4% weekly (compound) until your loan is paid off. Once your loan is paid off, your collateral is returned. Simple as that! Ready to take out that loan? What are you waiting for? Contact me! As of right now, we have $4.5M to loan out. Funds may increase if other Admins chip in to the pot, so check back often!

	NightStrike, 6:41 AM EDT You CAN'T be serious! You are now capitalizing on the very loans business that you tried to shut down just a few months ago?? How is it even slightly fair that an admin is profiteering on here, especially considering the fact that admins have an ability to repossess the entirety of a player's account when he defaults. Us lowly non-admins have no such luxury, and have to rely on profits from other loans to offset the costs, which basically means that you can easily undercut everyone's prices! This is Wrong. Dead wrong.
	Flamey, 8:23 AM EDT They're the profits for tournaments and future admin-run contests. They're not making anything from it. If you looked at his rates, it doesn't look like he's trying to undercut you, either.
	QBComrade Ranger, 8:46 AM EDT I have to agree with NS on this one. There already are businesses out there that provide such a service funded by their own money. This is an attempt to siphon such business off the "common people". Given a choice, who will somebody use, the "admin" loan business or a normal persons. If this was funded by earned/bought cb2, that is another story. But this is funded by already repossessed money. I was stunned when I first saw this post last night and a good nights sleep has not changed my mind about it.
	AdminG Beee, 10:58 AM EDT C'mon folks cut SNK some slack. This is 100% not an attempt to siphon business off the "common people" or profiteering no matter how it may look. It is however an attempt to offer a positive contribution from a guy who has a track record at doing so. If you've got concerns then that's perfectly acceptable. Explain them either in SNKs CM or here in the forum, but please don't question his integrity. That is Wrong. Dead wrong.
	QBComrade Ranger, 11:13 AM EDT Let me state things more clearly. I never typed SNK was doing this for personal profit or gain. However, there already are loan businesses out there by non admins using their own money trying to make a profit. What this "admin" loan business is doing is using admin related repossesed money to make a profit. The profit is NOT for SNK's own gain. Let me make that 100% clear. However, using admin related money/items to compete against a non admins is wrong. If there was no loan services out there, fine, but this is just wrong.
	QBOOB, 11:19 AM EDT Perhaps making another thread to discuss the moral issues here or whatever would be better than cluttering up SNK4R's loan thread? =) I've pasted everything here so that admins may delete replies from the other thread without anyone's input being lost. SNK4R's thread can remain uncluttered this way. Seems to me to be a fair compromise -- now you can discuss the merits and problems with an admin holding a business, or whatever the issue was (didn't pay close enough attention =P), here. ^_^

Is this really a big deal? NO, its not. The admin loan service has 4.5M or so.

THAT is not even close to the amount that you have NS. People cant go to the admin loan service to get a 10M loan. Cut our rates? Not even close.

AND it is for a good cause. Is SNK in any way making a profit from this? NO. Will this benefit CB? YES, in the form of better contest prizes and better tourny prizes.

So lets just chill out a little bit. Is it a big deal if I just decided to start a loan service to make my own profits off of? NO.

So why is it a apocalyptic struggle when an admin makes a loan service IN WHICH 100% OF THE PROFITS GOES BACK TOWARDS CB!

Before we all over-exaggerate, lets think about what the "Admin Loan Service" is really about.

The issue here is that the admins are using money to fund this that they repossessed from CB's vagabonds, and what's to say they won't use that very same power to "collect" on their loans as they did with the repossessions. It's not an issue of benefit, but instead one of power abuse-- when someone defaults on their loan and an admin is notified that someone never gets the money/item back, but, in this case, it is totally possible. That said, perhaps that whole argument is void because of the fact that SNK clearly states that collateral is needed to procure a loan. Either way it still smells fishy to me.

Please. Only use HTML if you know what you're doing. It took me a lot of time to fix above mess...

Heh. Sorry bart...

As stated in the other post,

I have no issue with SNKs morality. He is not making a profit from it.

But to use cash obtained from admin powers to compete with a person who is funding his business via his own means is not fair.

If there was not a loan business already, then fine. But there are such businesses out there, what is the need for this one. To fund more tournaments? What about Jon just funding them from CB or using the items/money already repossessed?

Again, I in no way believe SNK is doing this as a personal profit business and never believed such. I have never known him to abuse his admin powers. But I believe this is a misguided venture.

Well, in a perfect world, Jon would give items and money to the tournies, but i think that this is not what actually happens ATM. From my understanding, and Slayer can correct me if I'm wrong (which is entirely possible), the tournies are not in fact a bottomless pit, and there is a limit to the prizes (The First tourny had a 5M 1st prize -- now the prizes are 1/5 of that).

If jon did spawn items and gave money to the tourny admin for prizes, then the whole admin loaning service would definitely not be needed, as there are enough *vagabonds* to collect items and such from.

I think SNK's idea is a good one. He's trying to help out the communitee. And I support this idea 100%. :)

Hm. I took the time, finally, to look over and consider the issue. As far as I can tell, I don't really see anything wrong with it. These points....

"considering the fact that admins have an ability to repossess the entirety of a player's account when he defaults. "

The admins also have the ability to reset all the players above them and take the #1 spot in the game, but they don't. They have a lot of 'abilities', but we trust them to use them properly. Jon doesn't just pick random people to be admin, I'm pretty sure he only chooses those he believes will NOT abuse the responsibility.

So that particular point I'm not too worried about - I believe SNK4R will take the loss just like any other loaner would, and reset/warning flag them.

"This is an attempt to siphon such business off the "common people". "

I'd call this more of a 'common person' business, with the profits going to the TP bank. It is the same as any other loans service, but the person running it is an Admin (just a title as long as he doesn't use his admin abilities), and the profits going somewhere useful....

"What this "admin" loan business is doing is using admin related repossesed money to make a profit. The profit is NOT for SNK's own gain. Let me make that 100% clear."

But why does the source of the money matter? Be it USD or someone else's...perhaps if that was clarified, I'd change my viewpoint, but I just don't understand why that makes it unfair to others.

One person buys 4.5M with USD and starts a loan business to profit themselves, SNK4R uses 4.5M repossessed from people who CHEAT the COMMUNITY and uses it to profit the COMMUNITY. If it is all going back to us, why is that bad? I'm simply asking for an explanation of that point, I suppose. You could change my mind, but I'm simply missing a puzzle piece here.


Like scy said, if Jon was giving out money from Central Bank or someplace, this wouldn't be an issue - but that'd stop Central Bank from absorbing money as a sink to slow inflation.

*shrugs* That's how I see it, after having read it through a couple times.

OB,

Imagine someone like Beee taking all the nice items he repossessed on his admin character, putting it on Tweenies and fighting much higher, using that profit to fund tournaments.

Not exactly the same but similar. Is that fair to the rest of CB? I do not think so.

Using money/items gained from admin powers to compete with people who do not have those powers is just wrong.

Again, let me stress I never stated and never believed that SNK is doing this for anything other then trying to help the game. However, this is misguided in its attempt considering there are "common" people doing the exact same thing.

The source of the money is an issue to me. NS started this business wth his own money. In the spirit of fairness, using repossessed money to compete with non repossessed money is not competing on equal footing.

Now those that will argue about USD not being equal, they have a point. But everyone in the game does have the ability to use USD, just not the means to do so. Not everyone has the ability to repossess things like the admins do.

-_-

SNK, I support this idea. Completely. 100%. Shame on the rest of you for not.

You may still use the player held services. NS, people won't stop using you. This rate is rather high, and many players won't afford it.

Let me state this real, real bluntly. This idea was designed to HELP the community. NOT hurt one player. Suck it up. See what happens. I'd bet my soul this loan service will not send NS' wealth spiralling into the ground, or put the CB economy through a field of razors. Let's just wait and see.


SNK, thanks for the good idea. And I trust you to implement it completely and honesty. Thanks again.

Maybe one of my points was missed.

Lets say i started a loaning service. Would you have a problem with that? Would you put an ethics thread up saying that I am misguided in my attempt at making money?

If the answer to that question was yes, then there is a bigger problem with CB.

Now, if the answer was no, then I ask WHY?

SNK, is not making money off this--- it is a nonprofit charity organization. All of the money goes directly into contests or tournies.

Would it be a problem if, lets say *I* made a loan service and promised all the profits to go to tournies and contests?

Again, if the answer to that question was yes, then there is a bigger problem afoot.

Admins are doing the same thing I *could* do with a loaning service, however they have better resources at their fingertips.

There is nothing fishy or sinister about this. It is a nonprofit organization. And I am sure that the admins are not trying to ruin the economy by undercutting prices Walmart style and driving NS and friends out of business.

Awesome! What a cool idea...

Any addtional options are great, personal issues have gotten in the way when I've tried to get loans previously.

I can see where everyone's coming from.

And I would agree with ranger if and only if: SNK's interest rates were conveniently lower than NS and others', and he had a limitless amount to give out .

As it stands, 4.5 million to loan out at a higher interest rate than other loaning services is hardly going to put a dent in the business.

Having said that, it's hard to ignore a wrong thing just because it is of a small scale....

OK back to square one. :)

I think the main problem is that people who offer loans, such as NS, have NO way of recovering their losses on a defaulted loan. They take a hit whenever it happens.

An admin, however, doesn't put their money at risk, and can always just repo whatever they lose, instead of being forced to take a hit to their personal money amount.

I think that it's somewhat unfair that NS, and other loan services, can't recover their losses, while an Admin one can run with repo'd money and no losses what-so-ever.

I also think that the idea is great, though. If there's a way to offer loans with no concern over defaulting, all the better. But it is just a bit unfair to other loaners. :/

For all those that think that SNK is *NOT* undercutting everyone else... Newsflash.... 4% is less than 5%.......

Also,

I do not believe SNK will use his admin powers to recover any money and/or items.

He is not like that. And that would be 100% wrong, We all can agree with that.

However, if his loan business goes belly up, who cares, it is not his money.

If NS's goes belly up, that matters since it is his money.

It is far easier to play blackjack with the house's money then your own. That is what is happening here.

"But why does the source of the money matter? Be it USD or someone else's...perhaps if that was clarified, I'd change my viewpoint, but I just don't understand why that makes it unfair to others."

SNK has *ZERO* risk associated with anything that he does. ZERO. NONE. ZILCH. He didn't pay for anything, he didn't fight for anything, he didn't spend a year camping auctions and staying up late to snipe good deals (ahem...), work trades, and build his way up to anything substantial. He just took all of that money from other players.

I put a lot out there on the line for my business, and I still do all the time. This undermines everything that I've tried to do since before the NCB was even a reality. This is total utter nonsense. If you can't see how there's a huge difference between using fancy admin powers to acquire money (which has now quintupled for all you saying "It's just $4m") and working hard for over a year, then I have no words at all for you. None whatsoever.

If Admins want to offer a service to the community in the realm of loans, then let them send the acquired monies on a default back to the loaner.

If this is just an attempt to get more prizes for tournaments, then take it from Central Bank.

What is most likely is that this is just yet another attack on me from SNK. He has been trying to kill my loans business for a while now, and he attacks me out of the blue in chat any time he can. I'm frankly quite tired of it, and tired of the senseless abuse of admin powers, of which this is just one in a long string.

"...he didn't fight for anything"

One could argue that the majority of the starting $4.5M was from this.

NightStrike, really, stop acting like I'm against you. How is this a 'ploy' to drive you to the ground?

Can I not try and help the damn community? Jesus.

No, SNK, you made it clear:

"The money on the character comes from repo'd stuff from bans/resets, which will be used to offer the community loans. "

It came from the work of other people, NOT you. *DON'T* try to take credit for someone else's work. You did NOTHING for it except TAKE it.

Part of it. The start-up money for the loan service did come from me fighting on the Admin. character. Check my battle log, please.

"Lets say i started a loaning service. Would you have a problem with that? Would you put an ethics thread up saying that I am misguided in my attempt at making money? "

Not at all. I would support the competition, and even help you as I've helped almost everyone else that has tried to start a business in competition with me.

There's a huge difference here. You aren't an admin. You can't use your admin powers to investigate the debtor, or to finance your business. You have risk (and a lot of it). You have to rely on the resources of us lowly commoners. You are on equal footing, and I would love to help you get started in your own loans business.

Night: you were doing so well for a while there...

You're seriously impossible sometimes, and your embattled perspective makes you caustic in every situation where it's possible for you to feel that you've been "wronged". If what you are doing with loans is for the good of community, and not for profit (as you've often said). There should be NO reason that the community itself (which is exactly what is happening) shouldn't attempt to also help itself.
An admin (someone who has already done more for the community that you, despite your insane claims to the contrary) is volunteering (READ THAT WORD AT LEAST TWICE) to run a loan service, and you construe it as a personal attack against you...BAH. I personally think you've used your position more vindictivly than SNK could even manage. I don't bring up the situation that occured when I attempted to get a loan from you ever, simply because it makes me senselessly angry; however it's the very reason I'm excited there might be an slightly more impartial large loan service someday. You're the one with the problem with SNK, stop it.

Let me just list some fact without any tone or bias:

-- SNK has special powers as a loaner, yes, and resources are, at least partially, from those special powers. Therefore, SNK has no risk.
-- SNK gets no reward from this, since the proceeds go to the community.
-- NS has more risk, as he has correctly pointed out that he gets no help and is funding everything from his own pocket.
-- NS alsy has more reward -- the money he gains is his to keep, solely for him.

Summary: SNK gets no risk/no reward. NS gets high risk, high reward.

That part is a wash, folks. Please move on.

I WOULD, however, like to see SNK's rates not undercutting NS's (I don't know if they do or not). SNK is like the Small Businesss Administration -- he is allowing additional loans for folks, but doesn't gain as an entity. And he doesn't put the banks out of business because he isn't allowed to totally TAKE loans from anyone else. That is how this should be handled. In fact, SNK should just become a loan guarantor. Then he would be exactly like the SBA.

It sounds like we may need some usury policy set up here, but can folks stop bickering about where the money came from and where profits go? That is a non-issue due to the risk/reward analysis above.

Am I correct in assuming that this Admin Loan Business was discussed on the admin forum prior to it being posted on the normal forums?

You'd have to assume that Jon has signed off on this. In no way should this implicate that I think that this is kosher though.

...and I don't know if I'd state it as simply as Sut did:
"Summary: SNK gets no risk/no reward. NS gets high risk, high reward."

Rather, it should be NS risks much(entire loans) to make his 5%.

I know I am new here but not everyone does contests and tournies also. Which means that those only help part of the community.

Tezmac, NS's RELATIVE reward is very high. Remember, he doesn't have to be in the loan business in the first place. So yes, I will stand by "high risk/high reward"...that's what banking is. If you make a ratio of NS's gains to someone NOT in the loan business, you get:

Some positive number/Zero

Last I checked, that yields infinity. I'd call that high. *smile*

I don't understand why people are taking any of this personally or thinking it is personal. SNK is fine and NS is fine. This has to do with monetary policy, so can we keep the topic on that? No one has an axe to grind, no one is out to "get" someone, and there is no malice here. Let's not manufacture some.

Sut,

That is exactly what the problem I have with this.

SNK, while very altruistic has NO personal risk and yes, there is some rewards. Getting money to help the community. The Rewards though, have to be thought of in 2 parts. The monetary and the personal. There is little personal rewards as the money goes to the community. However the money rewards are almost the same as Nightstrikes give or take a % point.

NS has high risk with nice rewards. But he is taking a personal risk with HIS OWN money, while SNK is not using his own money (except for that he fought with on the admin character).

IMO, this sets a bad precedent. That is allowing admins, with their special powers/abilities, do things that us normal people can do in CB.

What is next? Admins equipping confiscated items and fighting to make money for tournaments and prizes?

Please remember I have no personal stake in this. I do not lend money or borrow it.

I think that the admins should take a bigger role in loan replacement anyway. This is an opinion which is totally removed from this discussion. The one and only problem with loans --- loaning money out to people, is that if that person doesn't pay you back, your screwed.

I don't have a problem with the Admin Loaning System. None at all.

But it is my opinion that if the admins can get involved with the loaning end of CB, then they should apply their admin powers to everyone who is in the loaning business. People shouldn't lose money because someone else stole it-- in real life, or on CB.

It is also possible that there would be almost NO dissension about the Admin Loaning system if the admin services were offered to everyone.

Besides, we need to give admins something to do! ;)

I must be mis-reading then -- all proceeds from the SNK loans go to the community. What is the "reward" for SNK again?

I would say this: since that account of SNK's is now being used for loans, it should be watched like a multi-account -- no money should be allowed to go out to anything other than the loan service, with all proceeds going to another account dog-eared for community service. This insures SNK gets no personal reward, which is as it should be because he is taking zero personal risk.

This is nothing that a little bit of oversight cannot handle.

That should hardly be a problem since I haven't really done any 'outside' trading with anyone for the past several months (check my All transfer log). Any are welcome to check up on my transactions. I will be making another PR thread that shows the profit created from the loans on a loan-by-loan basis to also help logging.

I hope nobody believes SNK is going to become a multi.

However there is a gain SNK gets, monetary.

And this is in direct competition with NS and his loan business. However the startup funds are zero risk to the admins but a huge risk and cost to NS.

I cannot believe people cannot see the conflict of interest in this.

simple... break the rules and extend recovery of money to loaners

Can you point out the monetary gain for me (I'm starting to feel dumb; I am not reading anywhere that SNK is getting monetary gain -- the money goes to the community). It's not like SNK is going to be allowed to sell out any surplus from his admin account or move funds around. There is oversight involved here.

So, how are the gains monetary for SNK?

It is still zero risk/zero reward for SNK, and high risk/high reward for NS. I really don't understand the conflict people ARE seeing.

If you have a problem with SNK's rates putting NS out of business, then push for monetary policy changes -- i.e. force admin-run endeavors like this not to undercut any "private" enterprise...you have my full backing on that, 100% But why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

For the very very last time,

SNK is making a profit from his service, that is the interest. While he is not personally making profit, there is a monetary gain which cuts into NS's business. A business NOT funded by repossessed money and via his own pocket.

Again, while the interest is not going into SNK's pocket, the account is gaining money.

I can explain it no more.

You can explain it as little or as much as you like, that still doesn't make your opinions on the matter any more or less important (or even entirely accurate as far as I can tell). And it doesn't address the issue -- how can we make this acceptable for you? Tell the thread what you would like to see happen other than to completely disallow it (because it doesn't appear that it is going to be disallowed). Surely it can be made palatable somehow? You know, compromise? Discussion? Ideas? So far, your only idea is, "no, this is 100% wrong".

You can sit around lamenting it all day, but wouldn't you rather really DO something about it? Constructively? Work within the system to reach a solution?

I'm all for changing the structure of the service a little if that's what will make people happy. Raise/lower the interest? Put a requirement to get loans (e.g., certain NW, MPR, PR, etc.)?

As long as there are current players who give loans I cannot see a way the admins loan service will be fair to them.

Perhaps and only perhaps if people try the standard loan services and for some reason cannot procure a loan, the admins service can be a backup.

However, as it is now, even using a min NW/PR etc..., this is in no way, shape or form fair to the current loan services CB offers.

Again, how is this any different from an admin equipping seized items, fighting higher all for the benefit of raising funds for tournaments/contests?

Admins using seized funds/items to raise money for the "good" of CB. Bad idea.

But, Why do I have to: "Tell the thread what you would like to see happen other than to completely disallow it (because it doesn't appear that it is going to be disallowed). Surely it can be made palatable somehow? You know, compromise? Discussion? Ideas? So far, your only idea is, "no, this is 100% wrong". "?

We can go back and forth many times, but my position is crystal clear, this is wrong. Completely, total, unequivocally wrong.

"Again, how is this any different from an admin equipping seized items, fighting higher all for the benefit of raising funds for tournaments/contests? "

Moreover, how is it different from an admin using admin resources to run a forging business, or to camp ammo from the auctions and sell them, or to do anything else that other people on CB do without the resources of an admin?

Here's what it comes down to -- SNK has resources and powers that the common person does not have, and that is just plain not fair.

Now, if SNK were to use only his own money and not one cent that came from his admin duties, and if SNK were to never investigate a potential debtor using the advantages of being an admin, and if he were to act as a purely non-Admin CB player, then I would be all for this.

But that is far from the case, and as Ranger says, that makes this 100% WRONG.

Good points...though if you agree with Ranger, then neither of you think it is 100% wrong... Ranger himself said, as an idea, to make the service act as a backup of sorts, much like my SBA example -- a loan "helper" if you will!

See, isn't analysis and brainstorming FUN! Even when you least expect it, ideas pop out!

Join us, SNK...would you be willing to work with us and try to think of ways to make this more of a loan "backup" facility rather than something that would end up being a direct competitor to private enterprise using "public" funds? It's an idea, anyway...

Thanks, Ranger! Thanks, NS! Thanks, SNK!

Admins offering loans as a backup to anyone else offering loans doesn't change the underlying principles at stake here -- that is, that the admins have abilities and resources unavailable to anyone else, and this would NOT be tolerated at all in any other aspect of CB.

You wouldn't let it happen for fighting.
You wouldn't let it happen for forging.
You wouldn't let it happen for camping.
You wouldn't let it happen for rentals.
You wouldn't let it happen for auctioning.
You wouldn't let it happen for character trading.

Why is loaning in a league of its own?

The main reason I am against it is: What is to stop the admins from doing the same thing for fighting, forging, camping? All in the name of making money for tournaments/prizes. One can say this is a special occasion since CB does not really offer loans as a distinct part of the game, like fighting or forging. But I will counter in that it is a part of the game that is here to stay. Done by the "common" people not having/using special abilities.

Once you let someone use "special" abilities once, what is to stop the flood gates from opening up? If it is good in this situation, why is it not in this or that situation?

Like I have stated before, this is a really bad precedent. There already are such services out there, which adequately supply the demand.

The must be other ways of suppling the tournaments with money/items/funds without competing with the current viable banks of CB that are in business.

"You wouldn't let it happen for auctioning."

In CB1 tourneyprizes bid on Auctions to get items for prizes (bidding with money primarily funded from banned/reset characters), often outbidding regular characters in the process. I had no problem with it and I recall absolutely noone else having a problem with it.

Okay, hey, you know what? Admin Loans has a loan out right now. After this is up, Admin Loans will be closed.

If people don't want good things for the community, then I won't sit here and take up my time to do such things. Can we end this discussion now since the service will end once loan money comes back in?

For those that thought this was a good idea, you can thank your fellow players who were against this idea for not having such a service.

Here's a good place for a source of tournament stuff:
http://www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=13&opponent_name=Mr%2e+Chairman

Ok.. This is what I think should happen.. Some members don't like this idea, Some do.. Ok.. With that risk.. Just say this 'Admin loan thing' Won't work out. Close thread. End of discussion.

God. It's not that complicated.

Nice to see night and ranger fight for the good of the community once again...

I know of at least two people who despite long time playing, and seemingly unquestionable standing in the community (even if one of them is me) were unable to get a loan from Night. I believe he has the loan business as a power play, and an ego trip more than anything else. He can threaten us (and has) with "I'm going to take my money and leave, and then where will you get a loan from" at any point where his behavior is called into question. It's sad the possibility of a another option is now gone, and I'm disappointed that all it took was the typical cries of "it's not fair" "that's wrong". Continue to wear down the people who keep this game together you two, you'll succeed in ruining it for everyone eventually.

Thanks for trying SNK.

give the money to me, ill loan it out. lol. i can take the flak all day

This whole argument is ridiculous-- it all deals with hypotheticals. If you wanted to base your argument off of something which has happened, then it might merit some type of credence. "What if" is not a solid base for an argument over something which is soundly NOT based in the future or in a hypothetical situation.

You cannot argue over a blown call in baseball or any other sport by ranting over stochastic meanings of the universe and the purpose of g-d.

To say that the admin loaning service is invalid because what if, is completely Philistine.

I think Admin loans and all loans have a very valid purpose for existing against what the "vocal minority" might think. I think the only problem was "framing" the loan business as "admin loans". Instead it should be called "community loans", which signifies exactly that. You would still get the regular suspects arguing against it (most notably the ones with money), but you would find much more support amongst regular CB folk.

I just wanted to add, that we could very easily put together some "risk assessments" for the loaning business to determine who can and can't get a loan from SNK. Here are a few risk assessment criteria that could easily boil down to a simple number (very much like our real life credit score).

-Length of time played
-Net worth of assets (or collateral)
-Number of posts
-MPR of characters
-Clan points for year
-Forging NW for a year
-Named Items
-Bought CB with USD
etc.

If you put all of those stats together, you would easily be able to assign a risk number to every person that wanted a loan, easily. Just like real life.

To follow up my last post, what this whole argument can be boiled down to is this metaphor:

"Mommy, Santa Claus is coming to town with presents!"

"I think that we should boycott Santa Claus because it might be possible that the addition of free gifts to the economy might put out a small business owner who makes gifts in some third world country"

Novice,

I was under the impression there is more then 1 bank in CB. NS is not the only loaner out there.

I was also under the impression more then just myself and NS disagreed with the Admins Loan issue. It is just NS and I were more "vocal" then the others.

And if you read my post, I stated it may be OK if the Admins Loans were as a last resort, IE if someone could not get a loan via the usual method.

I also suggested we, as a community, figure a better way, fair to ALL, to fund the tournaments/contests. This, however, was not a fair way.

So please do not blame me for ruining something, since that thing was poorly designed within the context of a fair game.

Well Lets just say the only reason I didn't ring in in favor of NS and Ranger is because they were doing a fair enough job with voicing the facts. I am not rich and I don't run my own loan business but I have worked for NS in the past. I know how difficult it is in the loan business and how it is unfair for an admin to use his resources to exploit the way things generally work.

If he wasn't an admin, using admin resources, there would be no argument, or if he was using all of his hard earned money, and sloughed it all off to someone else to control the whole loan part there would be no issue. Its just the morals of having someone with the power to actually repossess the defaulted items, running the business himself... even if its not for profit.

"Its just the morals of having someone with the power to actually repossess the defaulted items"

This part of the argument: worthless. Admins are players who fight in the middle of us with the power to reset us. Let's rephrase it in that respect...


"Its just the morals of having someone with the power to actually reset people beating them"


See, the power to do so doesn't matter when the people who have it won't exploit it. And there's NO evidence that SNK4R would, especially since he was asking for collateral - which there would be no need for him to do if he was going to simply repossess funds that people refused to repay.



I wish you guys would think a little more of our admins. I've seen so much criticism of SNK4R by some people, as though he's done something so terribly WRONG here by trying to be helpful. That's just freaking rude.


Bah, I'm done talking in this thread.

So the reason we don't want loans by an admin for the rest of the community is because... "no its not fair, they need to use their own money".

Rather then argue for the loan service, why not have those who oppose it actually give good reasons it is so bad, rather then just saying that "it's bad because it's not fair, and so-and-so can't compete with admins" and "abusing power!" these are red herrings.

"I was under the impression there is more then 1 bank in CB. NS is not the only loaner out there."

If you read what I said, I was looking forward to the possibility of a loan service that was capable of larger loans, something NS has a lock on.

"I was also under the impression more then just myself and NS disagreed with the Admins Loan issue. It is just NS and I were more "vocal" then the others."

You're discouraging someone from helping the community, and enabling a troll to continue to harass an admin.

"And if you read my post, I stated it may be OK if the Admins Loans were as a last resort, IE if someone could not get a loan via the usual method."

Why should it be a last resort? (note, I was a better answer than "it's not fair")

"I also suggested we, as a community, figure a better way, fair to ALL, to fund the tournaments/contests. This, however, was not a fair way."

Why isn't this fair? What actual negative results would we expect to occur?

"So please do not blame me for ruining something, since that thing was poorly designed within the context of a fair game."

The game isn't a competition for banking enthusiasts, and I'm not buying the predictions that the sky will fall. What are you claiming is going to happen?

I've briefly skimmed the above posts and i'm not sure i'm grasping where this is going and what is so wrong with this idea? Sure a few things could be hammered out and fine tuned but overall idea, imho, was great.

Can someone_please_sum up the what has been stated. Pros and Cons of SNK"s proposal?

i dont see a problem with admin loans if snk4r says that he will not use his admin powers to get stuff back(meaning if they default they get reseted) meaning wiped...

SNK4R Offering proffessional loans.

People saying he is putting others out of business and could/would exploit admin powers to get payback (Which I know he would not do in million million, dare I say billion years).

Summed up.

SNK4R this is a great thing for the community, sorry you got so much heat for it.

Why the attack on SNK for using admin repo to provide a service? It smacks of personal vendetta somewhat; especially as G Beee uses his special admin 'privileges' to run contests and never sees posts from other contest runners complaining of possible abuse.

If it's wrong for SNK to provide a loan service using admin repo, then it should follow that it's wrong for G Beee to run contests in that way no? Or am I missing something in the fact that both are putting stuff back into the community?

Is Beee directly competing with someone already doing such a business, with his contests?

Is there a profit to be made via such activity?

Again, I never said SNK was going to use his admin powers to repossess things if people defaulted on the loan. But using money gained by such powers to compete in a business with someone who does not have such abilities/funds is wrong.

I'm not even sure it should be defined as profit given SNK's statement : "By taking a loan out with us, any profit created from interest will go towards hosting additional Admin-related contests as well as fund prizes/money for Tournaments."

It certainly isn't personal profit. It's not like it's going towards funding a new server or anything like that either....

if he doesn use admin powers to get loans back i dont see any problem with this... at least for me

But JW,

It is profit on the money being lent out, which is in direct competition to the other loan services out there.

Ok, yes profit; but profit that goes back into the community. From a business point of view perhaps a pretty good 'unique selling point' and one that could entice customers away from people making personal profit.

But really, other loan businesses, specifically NS' have their own USP; In NS' case Really Big Loans, that nobody else can offer. I don't see how SNK setting up a loan service would affect that, any more than if I set up a loan business.

Personally I don't have any qualms with using repo money for this. Providing any profit made goes right back into the community. Repo money comes from a bad source usually. Why not use it to do some good?

"But using money gained by such powers to compete in a business with someone who does not have such abilities/funds is wrong."

But why is it wrong? What advantage is SNK4R himself getting? He has the ability to reset and access to reset characters funds but why is this a problem? How is this hurting the community in any way?

“Now those that will argue about USD not being equal, they have a point. But everyone in the game does have the ability to use USD, just not the means to do so. Not everyone has the ability to repossess things like the admins do.”

Besides those that can afford to use USD and those that can't, there is a third party...those who believe in a pure game. If you don't create it in game than it shouldn't be allowed to enter into said game. In my book USD coming into the game is wrong! No matter how many times i stated it in forums, people still opened the floodgates and it poured in.

“So please do not blame me for ruining something, since that thing was poorly designed within the context of a fair game.”

The game is not fair and was never designed to be so for the above stated reasons. We live in a Jonarchy. If he allows it, it is fair. If he writes code to disallow it, then ya better not do it. Opinions are like...well ya get the picture.

I've thought long and hard about this thread.

I'm as guily as SNK3R.

A while ago I made WTB thread asking for someone to sell me thier open NCB 'slot' as I'd wasted mine and wanted another before my 4 months was up.

I hosted a little auction, got a couple of offers, but turned them all down for one I didn't want to refuse.

SNK3R offered to make me a new NCB on his admin account as he would use the fee I was to pay to go back to the community.

Win/Win I thought. I paid an 'idiot tax' for wasting my NCB slot, and instead of paying another 'competitior', I paid a fee that would be used to help the game as a whole. Whether it was used to fund contests or tourny prizes I have no idea.

So there we have it, I used an admin right (why would an admin account need to make a NCB charctaer?) and paid the game for it. But in doing so, I took that fee away from one of the games player.

Was I wrong to do so? Was SNK3R wrong to offer? I don't think so on either account. He made nothing personally from the deal.

SNK3R, I'd like to ask for a loan please.

Guys, clear the path and let Ranger get his last word (surely you know that is how this works by now?) I tried to elaborate upon the no risk/no reward (SNK), high risk/high reward (NS) dozens of posts ago. Though I was never proven wrong, it was still concluded by Ranger that SNK's endeavor was not fair. There is nothing more difficult to argue with than a vacuum filled with strawmen.

I'm just waiting for the classic: "It is obvious why it isn't fair, and anyone can see it. Case closed". In fact, can we just let that be your last word, Ranger? I think I did a pretty good job...

As good of an idea and well intentioned as this might have been, I have to side with the naysayers on this. Best to leave loan businesses in the hands of players, especially since its presence is already well established on CB. If no such businesses currently existed (as in, not a single one), I could see this worth being done.

Nice to see another player in favor of a virtual monopoly without any reason why...

Sorry, but I fail to see how 4.5M is a monopoly when NS has 120M

I think that is novice's point... He is saying NS has a virtual monopoly on large loans, and the "naysayers" are, in a sense, supporting that monopoly by naysaying without a whole lot of tangible facts on why it's "not fair".

Did I misread your post, scy?

I'm not EXACTLY sure where I fall on this, but I will say this: If I had 150 million lying around, I would be posting a loan business right now with rates of "what NS is charging - 1". If free enterprise and private competition are the goals here, I would love to provide that.

I think he means in favor of Nightstrike, not SNK4R....

We should have a poll on this, to see, for real, what the community thinks about this issue. And frame the vote using "community loans" not "admin loans" also, because it is clearly been evidenced that many users have a visceral, gut reaction to the word "admins" as generally bad, when this game would be much less fun without admins.

Sut,

I stated many times what is unfair. I cannot help it if you refuse to comprehend my posts. Many other people have. You read what you want. It is clearly stated.

And I guess that is the last word you so elegantly stated above.

Ranger's "reasons"

This is an attempt to siphon such business off the "common people".

However, using admin related money/items to compete against a non admins is wrong.

But to use cash obtained from admin powers to compete with a person who is funding his business via his own means is not fair.

Using money/items gained from admin powers to compete with people who do not have those powers is just wrong.

Admins using seized funds/items to raise money for the "good" of CB. Bad idea.

We can go back and forth many times, but my position is crystal clear, this is wrong. Completely, total, unequivocally wrong.

--

so lets see...it's umm wrong, and unfair...and ooo a bad idea...I think I finally get it...

Why?

Does it matter anymore, or are we just arguing because it's a rainy weekend and there's nothing better to do?

AdminSNK4R, August 31 8:00 PM EDT
"Okay, hey, you know what? Admin Loans has a loan out right now. After this is up, Admin Loans will be closed."

I think exposing the idiocy that prevented us from having a valuable service that would have benefited the community is worth it...

No sut that was exactly my point with my last post. :)

Ok,

Let me give an example,

Let's us say person A, using his own money builds a widget factory. it does well, has ups and downs.

Then sometime later someone, let us call them person B, build a widget factory next to person A. But, instead of using his own money, person B (who works for the government) gets a no risk government loan. Person B does not put up any of his own money to build this factory. If it fails, he has no risk at all.

But while person A is keeping the profits, person B is rebuilding the surrounding community with his.

Now we have to ask ourselves 2 main questions:
1) Is this fair to person A? I say NO. The fact he had to use his own money vs a no risk government loan (that was unavailable to him) is not fair.
2) Does the end justify the means? This is where most people differ. Quite a few believe, since the money is going back to the community, this is all good. I do not think so, The reason, see question 1. The main point for me is fairness. I am all for free market enterprise, but a fair market.

I can easily see how people can answer Yes to both questions. But if you were Person A, would you still believe it is fair?

With this post, I think I have stated my objections rather clearly. No need for more posts from me on this subject. No need to "clear a path" for me to get the last word.

Now the ball is in Jon's court.

I think it matters because few of us would like to see a loan business set up that could actually compete with NS, as well as benefit the community.

I agree with Verifex, we should have a poll. I for one support the idea of having a "community loans." I don't understand why this is such a bad idea.

Everything I've seem to have read says that this is wrong because it competes with the average player. How exactly is this different from me opening up a loaning business? With my current stock pile of money i could in no way compete with NS's loan service because he could loan out alot more than i could, 150mil more. His rates could be significantly lower than mine forcing me to do the same and see a quarter of the profits.

You guys are arguing against bettering your community? SNK isn't gaining anything from this rather the community as a whole is. As stated before the profit will be used to benefit the community via contests etc.

In fact, the profits could even be sent to central bank. Destroying which could slowly decline the inflation around here. Even resetting players who defaulted on a loan instead of repossessing the money and their items would, imho, still be helping the community. It would eliminate even more money currently in circulation, further decreasing inflation.

Is this fair to NS? No, he has infact taken a risk which lead to his empire. However is it fair to the community that one man practically controls the loaning industry within this game. What the admin loans has done is offer something for he_greater_good_of_our_community. Sure, this isn't fair to a few people but it is fair to the remaining 100+ who actively play this game.

"The fact he had to use his own money vs a no risk government loan (that was unavailable to him) is not fair." -Ranger

I don't really understand the no risk government loan part? There is just as big of a risk for the community loan as for Ns's loans. The community as a whole valuable money (assuming they are reset not repossed.) Where as for NS's loans it only effects him and his Profits which, can be agreed upon, only line his own pockets. Again, Which is the most fair?

Maybe im missing something even after Rangers analogy.

Bettors pay up! He's hit the trifecta and I win again!

If the players that defaulted on a loan were reset and the cash/whatever wasn't repossessed there wouldn't be any growth to the amount of loans available... If SNK4R and whoever else used their own money from fighting/forging/whatever and not repossessed cash, then there wouldn't be this whole big discussion about what is and what's not fair.

Here's an interesting ethical quandary that hasn't previously been considered: Who gets to decide how much money is going to be re-invested in the loan business, and what money will be allocated for "contests and tournies?" 4.5 million isn't all that much and even if you're collecting 4% interest on that there's not a whole lot of money left over to fund these contests and tournies. There also aren't nearly enough multis to increase this to a respectable amount that could independently support both funding contest and tournies and securing new loans. The only way I can see this loan business donating a single CB dollar to anything is if it has some other form of adding to its total pot. This is where admin powers come into play. Is it not correct that those characters that are reset have all of their items confiscated before the reset? Wasn't DAWG's tattoo sold after he was reset? I seem to remember something like that, although I wasn't around at the time, nor do I have a complete understanding of how administrative powers work. I have, however, been lead to believe that the aforementioned is the way things work, therefore, it is not, when taken out of context, an unethical thing for item/money repossession to occur prior to a reset/ban. The question we have to ask is why should the admins be allowed to hold onto this item/money for an indefinite amount of time while they build onto that with interest so they can "give" us more, rather than immediately distribute this money via tournies and contests and let us, the community, decide for ourselves how we'd like our item/money to be used? They aren't even giving us more, since it ourselves that is providing that profit. It's all just a delay in the redistribution of confiscated items/money, so why bother? Just for the sake of opening up competition in what is rapidly becoming Pottersville in our loans business?

I say close down the Building and Loans and let capitalism take its course.

"Even resetting players who defaulted on a loan instead of repossessing the money and their items would, imho, still be helping the community."

Resetting players instead of repossessing their assets would probably generate very little money for the community.

I'm sure you could ask any person who has run loans for any length of time, and they'd tell you that the profit they make isn't that large.

Regarding the monopoly NS has on loans; for one, be glad that huge loans are actually available. NS could just as easily buy hordes and hordes of supporter items that are no longer available, wait for inflation, and sell each item for ridiculous amounts. Would you really want that?

He could also just as easily sell all that money for USD, driving the price down lower than it already is. That's something that's not entirely good for the economy, either.

Other than that, chill out, people. There's no reason for us to argue until the end of time about this.

Well, now that we don't have to worry about "community loans" putting a dent in NS's bottom line, maybe we should ask Jon to increase the transfer fee to a higher percent, that way loaning money is not profitable to anyone. Loans are over-rated anyways.

You're right there, and debt isn't something that should be encouraged either.

Econ clans will be worth something! Everyone wins!

"I'm not EXACTLY sure where I fall on this, but I will say this: If I had 150 million lying around, I would be posting a loan business right now with rates of "what NS is charging - 1". If free enterprise and private competition are the goals here, I would love to provide that."

Please do so. I encourage it. I'll even give you pointers that I have learned from my experiences.

Here's the catch -- you need to get that $150m yourself, either through fighting, merchandising, or using hard-earned real money (USD).

However, as novice pointed out, how else does one acquire large sums of CB2 (in timely fashion) so as to beat out USD spenders? Like when a large account closes out? When a seller looks at %40 via PayPal against small sums of CB cash that take a long time to gather, what would you expect them to take?

I will agree that for smaller amounts, just save money for a few days -- the new BA refresh rats make it easier than ever to amass cash. But if you need 25 million within a week, how else can you get it?

That being said, I am all for no transfers whatsoever. That would prevent a few super-huge items from ever being created in the game. However, it's too late for that, at least for this go-'round of CB. Huge items exist, and it takes huge amounts of cash to move them.

Well we can have a long tournament, let's say 2 months to see how it would be without transfers.

NS, I assure you I don't work that hard for my USD. *grin*

In fact, what if I procure my USD via thievery, gambling, or drug-dealing, and then buy $CB with it? Are you going to try to shut me down for not using "real" funds of my own blood, sweat, and tears to steal your business?

In other words, a great deal of what is being discussed here is about "worth" and "work"... If we are going to count the "worth" and "work" in a _game_, then surely REAL-life work and worth matter too? After all, a lot of the assets floating around here aren't from in-game activities. They are from USD.

"Regarding the monopoly NS has on loans; for one, be glad that huge loans are actually available. NS could just as easily buy hordes and hordes of supporter items that are no longer available, wait for inflation, and sell each item for ridiculous amounts. Would you really want that?"

Indeed. Before I started doing this, who else was doing it? Pixel started loaning out the money he got from Jon, but they were small loans. No one else has come forward and said "I'll risk everything to offer something no one else has."

For those that think that large loans aren't worth it, ask the many people that have taken out $20m+ loans to build themselves a strong NCB after not being able to compete for the last two years. For those that think there is huge profit here, ask the many people that have taken out $20m+ loans and not paid back any of it.

I could very easily do as Tyriel mentions and sell it all, or dump it into my character Freed-style, or monopolize all the supporter items... All of that would be much more profitable. I don't.

For all those saying that I have a monopoly on the business, please explain how. I need to keep my rates up to try to break even given the tons of overhead associated with the loans business, from fees (both for money and collateral) to scammers, this business is expensive. If you think you can run a better operation that turns a sizable profit, then please do it! In fact, if you find out how to run it better than mine, share your ideas just as I'm willing to share the things that I've learned along the way. What you may find out, however, and be prepared to lose everything for this, is that it's a lot like forging in that it can be deceiving -- it's not get-rich-quick like it seems. It's not an easy thing to do (People start and quit this business more times than Murphy fires secretaries! How's that for an old school reference?). Dealing with all the many personalities of customers certainly isn't without its trials, either.

So for all you saying that I monopolize this business, please, try it yourself. See what happens. But don't call it a monopoly just because you don't want to or can't figure it out. A monopoly is a situation where I would use my wealth to prevent you from starting your own business, using underhanded means. My rates are what they are -- if you think you can do it and make it profitable for 3% a week, try it. I won't stop you. I'll even help you. But don't call it a monopoly.

You know what happened to the last three people that came to me and asked me to help them start their own loans business? They gave up because of costs involved, angry customers, and an inability to make the math work out in their favor. Nowhere in there did they give up because I strong armed them out of business. Heck, for two people I provided all of the startup capital! That, my friends, is the complete opposite of a monopoly.

"But if you need 25 million within a week, how else can you get it? "

What, so now that I've started providing this service that numerous people seem to hate, that it's now a required part of CB? Get the $25m the same way you did before I did this stuff -- earn it through fighting, forging, and trading. Heck, that's how I built this up. I bought cash, yes, but I traded it as well. I did a lot of buying/selling of CBD (when the rates were more fluctuating), items (especially supporter items), and ammo in auctions. In fact, I spent about a year trading things to get here. It was long and hard, but fun at times. Nerevas is a good example of someone really doing that well. Mikel is an example of someone really doing Rentals well. I found that I was better at doing Loans well.

I suppose no one wants to debate the issue as I see it.

NS, my comment was not a dig at you or loaning. Good grief, man. Even when someone makes a supportive comment for the necessity of the loan business and what you do, you take it as a de facto attack. Get some perspective!

Mem, sorry, I missed your comment, let me read it and see if I have anything constructive to offer. *smile*

Don't think of it as "Profit" more like Tax :)

Mem, I agree with many aspects of your post, and appreciate how well-thought-out it is. A part of it, oversight, is something I also mentioned above. Without a rigorous monetary/usury policy and oversight of an admin-run endeavor, I too would vote against such things, whether they be loaning, forging, fighting, hoarding rares, etc. I was hoping we could all work constructively toward a nice compromise, but I was wrong.

The wealth does all come from fighting, so admin hoards are bottlenecks in wealth distribution. However, there is another bottleneck in wealth distribution already: USD. Because it is too sticky to try to remove USD from the game, it is accepted. We have 800 million-dollar characters (didn't DAWG reach a billion?) and 125 million-dollar items because wealth, as you so aptly put it, gets side-tracked from the normal, CB-run economy and globbed into huge stashes.

I think that admin stashes should be held to a higher standard, though. That is where I trust Jonathan and the admins to "do the right thing". There already is oversight: Jonathan's appointment of those in power. If anyone thinks that is not enough, then such a person is probably better off not playing this game at all. ALL rules end up in Jonathan's lap, that's the reality; and he can pull the plug at any time. So, I choose to "suspend my disbelief" when it comes to worrying about whether or not admins will do the right thing, do it accurately, or do it in timely fashion. That covers the "average" parts of admin duties: resets, bans, etc. As I said, for this loan business I would want even a tad more oversight in the form of some publicly declared policy. SNK took that into his own hands and decided to do away with it all entirely. I don't blame him. Trying to work and find a compromise with the more vocal folks on this thread would not have found any common ground on which to grow fruit. :\

I will follow all that up with a question, back to my USD bottleneck observation: If you dislike the idea of a Pottersville in the form of admin hoards, what do you think of the Pottersvilles created by USD hoards?

I was under the impression he was talking about the $US created hoards Sut...

Oh, I must have mis-interpreted then, I'll wait for Mem to weigh in...

Nice to see you define a monopoly so well NS. If threatening to leave, and claiming that someone possibly offering competiton is unfair aren't underhanded methods of keeping your hold on power in place I don't know what is...

You left me hanging when I tried to get a loan (after I had previously paid off a sizeable loan to you) for essentially no valid monetary reason. You want power, that's the reason you don't move into one of the more profitable arenas of business in CB. Threats to that are what you fear, and users having the possibility of another option...well that's just wrong.

Building and Loans = admin loan service.

As anyone who's seen It's A Wonderful Life can attest, George Bailey didn't keep his business open out of sheer personal gain. He wanted to help his community and his big heart is what kept his business going.

Pottersville = Most specifically here, NightStrike's loan service, but it could be anyone. NightStrike is just a prime candidate of discussion.

The main antagonist of It's A Wonderful Life doesn't necessarily translate perfectly to our situation, but I believe that Henry Potter was a true capitalist, and Pottersville would have been his capitalist utopia. NightStrike, among others here (even outside of the loans business), fit that bill (no pun intended) perfectly.

Leave it to me to make allusions to films...

"You left me hanging when I tried to get a loan (after I had previously paid off a sizeable loan to you) for essentially no valid monetary reason. You want power, that's the reason you don't move into one of the more profitable arenas of business in CB. Threats to that are what you fear, and users having the possibility of another option...well that's just wrong."

ENOUGH, novice!

I made it clear in numerous chatmails to you that that is NOT what transpired! If you're still stuck on not getting a loan half a year ago because it was too large at the time, then you seriously need to step away from CB for a while. I even went so far as to say I would go back through my chat logs to find the exact scenario for why you were denied, and if it could be reworked, I'd rework it. Heck, I even told Miandrital that if I found that he or I did something wrong, that I'd give you the $30m or whatever it was for zero interest!

But forget it. I'm tired of this. You can't even acknowledge that I'm trying to make amends for a misunderstanding from a long time ago, and instead you insist on this nonsense, coupled with hateful chatmails to me.

"You want power, that's the reason you don't move into one of the more profitable arenas of business in CB." << As for that, first of all, there are *NO* areas of CB that are significantly profitable. None. Working your tail off for an extra $250k at the end of a week is not profitable. At current exchange rates, that's what... $3 USD? Three whole dollars...

And claiming that I "want power" does more to reveal your own unmet aspirations in this game. You are obviously discontent with where you are, and I pity you for that. You've mentioned on numerous occasions that you cannot control your emotions on this site, and it is becoming very prevalent in this thread. Novice, seriously, I mean this with all sincerity -- Get Help.

...This is turning into a hating thread. I think the only thing the admins should do right now is close this damn thread.

Seconded!

A nice debate is one thing, but personal attacks are another.