weapon allowance (in General)

Lumpy Koala September 2 2007 8:58 PM EDT

Split them. Yes, split them to half for ranged and melee so that both now has different quota. If either or both exceeds their own quota, PR weight will be added separately on top of effective PR.

Also if this combines with Ranger's/Freed's idea of remove top 10 exemption, it will be probably put most concerns of imbalance to rest

Mikel September 2 2007 9:23 PM EDT

I'm not sure that's a good idea, UC characters don't use Melee, some tanks are melee only, others are ranged.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your proposal?

Soxjr September 2 2007 9:29 PM EDT

It seems that the thought would be that the weapon allowance was for all weapons. People are able to get huge Melee or huge Ranged and only use one or the other. If there was a seperate WA for both Ranged and Melee then if you only wanted to go ranged then you would take a PR hit for the huge weapon. Or you could use both and use all the WA the way maybe it was intended.

Hopefully I explained that right. Oh and if I am wrong and that is not what you meant. Then just ignore this NUB. lol

Mikel September 2 2007 9:46 PM EDT

Ok then do away with ranged/melee penalties and open it up to where if I use a Melee, then I hit in round one, if I used a ranged, then I hit every round with no penalties to my dex. And do away with the switching up of weapons as well.

QBRanger September 2 2007 9:47 PM EDT

I believe that you should not at all be able to use missile weapons in melee rounds.

That way, if you decide to use a missile weapon, you need to carefully titrate the NW of 2 weapons but are getting the benefit of missile round damage. However, if you decide to do only melee, you can have a super huge melee weapon. But then your losing all those missile rounds of potential damage.

QBRanger September 2 2007 9:50 PM EDT

But then again, when you reach 6 BA regeneration, PR does not really matter since there is no penalty for fighting down.

Mikel September 2 2007 9:54 PM EDT

why not ranger, there's already a -60% dex mod, a damage reduction for using a ranged weapon in melee, and then throw in that you can only hit every other round.

It seems to me that Lumpy is just trying to make it all one dimensional game with tanks. I thought that everyone loved the idea of choices and various strats.

QBRanger September 2 2007 10:05 PM EDT

"why not ranger, there's already a -60% dex mod, a damage reduction for using a ranged weapon in melee, and then throw in that you can only hit every other round."

Sure let us go through all the negatives one at a time.

First: Firing every other rounds. Well for 4 rounds you get to decimate any opposing character AND get to fire in the first melee round before you have to wait a round. Those using missile and melee weapons have to wait a round to start melee. So in the first 5 rounds you get 5 attacks, they get 4. By that time, if you have not destroyed their character, you are not a good archer. Vs pure melee tanks, you get 4 free rounds of attack AND a fifth as they get their first.

Second: -60% dex modifier. If your an archer, your a TOA user. You cannot be an archer without using one. So who cares if your dex is lower by 60%. The PTH on the bow and the PTH on the TOA should easily overcome the dex loss. To almost all opponents. Perhaps not vs Koy and his 1M evasion and 200 DBs but certainly to everyone else.

Third: 60% damage reduction. Who the hell cares if your doing ONLY 40% of 3M. That is still 1.2M. My MH which is 50% more expensive then your elb does that much in melee, with no reduction penalty to damage. We all know that missile damage is far overpowered and 40% of infinity is still infinity, or at least enough to kill almost any minion out there. There are, yes, a couple exceptions but 99% of all minions die with a melee shot from your elb.

Yes, people may state, that Queen of Pain in an anomaly, but the same features do propagate into the lower ranks.

Lumpy Koala September 2 2007 10:13 PM EDT

Yes, Soxjr that's my intention. I know this will be flamed a lot, anyway I am just throwing out idea for discussion. I am sure to make it right, many other minor changes needs to take place. After all, the original post is for Jon to read and judge, the rest of your opinions are irrelevant if Jon doesn't read them :)

Mikel September 2 2007 10:26 PM EDT

Those negative Mods are much more effective in the lower ranks with a lesser weapon than my Elb and I have to wear a ToA if I even want to hit some of those Evasions out there.

Ranger, you keep saying Archery is so overpowered, but yet, BG's are to an Archer like BL is to a Melee tank... yet you use Evasion, so you aren't really comparing apples to apples there when you keep saying how little damage you do every round.

Now archery has a greater damage potential than melee, that I will concede, but Archers will never be able to leech hp like melee. GA is more of a bane to Archers than to Melee.

Evasion is much better in Ranged than Melee, so Melee has the advantage there as well.

My compromise would be to let Melee hit every round (with an HoC on), but no leech in Ranged. If you don't use an HoC, then you start your attacks in melee.

I'm actually curious to see how many melee tanks could survive without their Leeching ability.

QBOddBird September 2 2007 10:35 PM EDT

"I'm actually curious to see how many melee tanks could survive without their Leeching ability."

Does everyone use VA or a BOTH/MH now? Jeez, I've gone off and followed the crowd again...

QBRanger September 2 2007 10:39 PM EDT

I need my leeching ability of the MH due to the fact I have to wait 4 rounds of taking DD spells (from FB and MM) before I even get to have my first attack.

This was of course before my pseudo archer came about, but without a TOA, that minion rarely hits evasion minions enough to kill them.

Yes, BGs are to archer like BL is to melee. However the base damage of the elb with arrows (that are upgradeable) is far more then that of the MH/Bone etc..

One can easily stop most GA's with DM, but melee tanks certainly cannot due to the factor above, that is taking 4 rounds of DD damage before even starting to fight.

Fine, if i used BL instead of evasion, I would hit for 60% more then 1.2M so about 2M a hit. 1.2M is still enough to kill most minions.

Mikel September 2 2007 10:47 PM EDT

OOb, out of the top 25, (14 or so are tanks), only 3 use a vorpal, the rest use MH or BoTH on their main damage dealers.

We can go back and forth on this all night long.

My point is that Ranger keeps saying out overpowered Elb damage is vs his MH, yet he's not using BL that will boost his own damage out put by at least another 50-60%

Lumpy, I don't see any flaming going on here.

lostling September 2 2007 11:21 PM EDT

moral of the story.. either link the stupid PTH to dex or make the penalty in melee to be 60% PTH + CTH

Sacredpeanut September 3 2007 12:36 AM EDT

I'm sure Ranger would love to go Bloodlust but I understand that without Evasion he has no show of getting though Ranged without Exbows draining away all his strength.

Bloodlust appears to be fast becoming a lost skill, particularly up the top ranks where you are more likely to find large Exbows. Look at the top teams, many melee tanks are using Evasion these days rather than Bloodlust.

As to the issue of separate weapon allowances for Ranged and Melee - while I have issues with ranged damage I'm not sure separate weapon allowances in the answer. It really forces teams to have both a ranged and melee weapon. I think it's better than tanks have the option if they so desire of choosing to focus more on a ranged weapon or melee weapon.

I feel the penalties for using a ranged weapon in melee combat are severe enough, although I agree with Ranger and would like to see Ranged weapons hitting in the second round of melee combat rather than starting in the first.

QBsutekh137 September 3 2007 12:50 AM EDT

I don't see any flaming either. I would love to see more on this thread, and Might even be able to weigh in tomorrow (except I'm not a tank guy). I just want to make sure folks are talking apples and apples, because this is a very constructive dialog (or at least, could be).
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