Jon, can you please check if the effect of EC on evasion is working (in General)

QBRanger September 23 2007 10:35 AM EDT

It seems that in missile rounds, EC vs evasion is not working as it should be.

Perhaps I am wrong in assuming that EC does work on the defensive dex of evasion, but someone stated you confirmed it did in chat one day.

Thanks for your time.

lostling September 23 2007 10:40 AM EDT

jon dont get me wrong... i love the rest of the changes ... but the evasion part gets me the most...
considering with the fact that you just nerfed evasion and left TOA unchanged and changed the ROBF to add evasion.. does that mean you want to you use them to balance each other out? ... if so... y does TOA's PTH not stack nonlinearly?
since the change i have experienced difficulties with TOA archers... is like 80-90% of the exp i have added into evasion now useless? and i HAVE to use a tattoo to survive?... not much of a choice is there?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 23 2007 12:10 PM EDT

I'd start posting numbers...

Suts defensive dex each round should be X X X X
Suts minus to hit each round is X X X X
EC casts for 3.X mil
Your PTh x 9. and minus possible penalties to ranged rounds

There is a lot of math to be done before you declare shenanigans

QBsutekh137 September 23 2007 1:29 PM EDT

Here's my Evasion:

2,013,165/1,525,125 (150)

Feel free to do the math, I know Ranger already has.

I cannot believe I don't get hit by Koy. It really doesn't make sense to me unless his EC does nothing in ranged. But it would appear his EC works in melee, since he hits me fine there (as far as I have been told -- I don't fight him).

QBRanger September 23 2007 2:59 PM EDT

I posted numbers in a previous thread but here it is yet again:
Bamf's evasion:

Evasion: 1,694,745/1,168,790 (140)

I miss him in ALL missile rounds.

My EC casts for 3.25 Million--> Microchips cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3261161).

So let us take the 3rd missile round with its 1.66 multiplier:

1.66 x 1,695,000 = 2,813,700 which is easily covered by my Ethereal Chains.

So I should have the max dex advantage to hit, given my archer has 14k dex.

My MSB is +150 and I use +5 arrows so that should counter his evasions minus to my PTH.

So why the heck can I not hit him in any missile round at all??????

I know there is a penalty for using a MSB, but my archery is 1.0 so even with an 80% CTH/PTH, I should hit him at least once due to a dex advantage (150% with a bow).

QBRanger September 23 2007 3:11 PM EDT

For Sut let us look at the last missile round with its new 1.33 multiplier.

Sut's evasion: 2,013,165/1,525,125 (150)

1.33 x 2,015,000=2,686,666

At that level this would be about 169 minus to my PTH.

My EC casting at over 3.2M should nerf his defensive dex entirely.

My PTH is 150 from my bow, which is 155 due to naming.

Arrows are +5, (+6) with naming so an additional +18.

My total PTH is 155 + 18 = 173. Just takes away his minus PTH.

So it should be all down to my dex advantage with my archers 15k dex vs his 0 defensive dex.

Max dex chance to hit with missile is 150%, which should be 1 certain hit and 50% chance for a 2nd hit.

Yet it seems I miss him every time. However very very rarely now I am getting a hit in the last missile round vs him. About 2% of the time now. It seems perhaps the only chance I am getting in the last missile round is my PTH of about 4%, with the dex being a wash, which it should not be due to my massive EC.

Again, where is my thought process wrong?

QBRanger September 23 2007 3:15 PM EDT

And yes, vs Sut I know the MSB has a lower then 100% chance to hit in missile.

90% in the last missle round, I suspect 80% in the other rounds.

But even with the max dex advantage of 150% CTH I still should have over 100% CTH with that penalty.

All assuming my EC works as Jon stated in chat one day (EC does nerf defensive dex granted from evasion).

I do know for the examples I am giving my PTH of my bow and arrows overcomes the minus to PTH from evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 23 2007 3:22 PM EDT

if you never hit bamf at all in ranged combat, then something else would have to be coming in to play as hubbel's evasion is higher, no?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 23 2007 3:32 PM EDT

That is quite strange actually considering I hit Bamf most some of the time in the last round of Ranged with my +101 Axbow and about 720k Dex. I have a negligible EC so I know thats not doing anything and I don't have upped bolts.

QBRanger September 23 2007 3:38 PM EDT


Your using a TOA so that comparison is moot.

But I do believe that EC is not working as we were told, that is taking away from defensive evasion on a 1:1 ratio.

Only Jon can state if I am correct though.

QBRanger September 23 2007 6:09 PM EDT

Last example:


Evasion: 872,016/681,263 (105)

Now in the first round of missile with the max modifier of 2.33:

873,000 x 2.33 = 2,034,090 which is about level (150)

My EC of 3.25M should very easily nerf all that defensive dex.

My bow alone should cover that evasion minus PTH.

So why can I not hit him in the first round of missile? Or even the 2nd?

You asked for examples, well here are 3.

Unless I am figuring the effects of Ethereal Chains on defensive dexterity, I should be hitting far more than I current am.

QBRanger September 29 2007 12:33 PM EDT

Any luck getting this looked at this changemonth, or will we have to wait another 3 months?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 29 2007 12:38 PM EDT

Where in that math are you factoring in the 90% CTH of the MsK and the additional undisclosed ranged weapon penalties.

QBRanger September 29 2007 12:44 PM EDT


Even with a 90% CTH, based on dex alone, I should get 1 guaranteed hit in.

Even at 80%, I should get dex based CTH which is 150% for max dex advantage.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 29 2007 1:19 PM EDT

My point is that you may not but eliminating all the minus to hit with the plus on your bow.

QBRanger September 29 2007 1:26 PM EDT

But even if i do not eliminate the entire minus, my dex based chance to hit should be 150%.

So even if his minus to PTH is 20 more then my weapons CTH, I should still easily hit via dex.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 29 2007 1:33 PM EDT

Rather than claiming what it should be, why not measure what it is?
If you know what your chance to hit actually is, maybe we can figure out how it got that way.

QBRanger September 29 2007 1:39 PM EDT


Here is my last example redone with let us say an 75% of my normal CTH due to the MsB in round 1 (we do not know the exact CTH of a MSG in round 1 of missile).


Evasion: 872,016/681,263 (105)

Now in the first round of missile with the max modifier of 2.33:

873,000 x 2.33 = 2,034,090 which is about level (150)

My EC of 3.25M should very easily nerf all that defensive dex.

So his minus PTH is 150.

My pluses:

150 + 5 (named bow) + 18 (named +5 arrows), +150 (Dex CTH) = 323.

So 75% of 323 = 242

242 - 150 = 92%. I should almost always hit in round 1/2 of missile.

But where are my assumptions/calculations off?

As I stated in another thread, it all for me should come down to dexterity vs defensive dexterity. If my EC takes their dex down to 0, I should hit due to the 150% for a bow in missile.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 29 2007 1:43 PM EDT

what percentage of the time are you hitting in the rounds you do hit?

QBRanger September 29 2007 1:47 PM EDT

I hit in rounds 3/4 from 1-2 times every time.

I miss in round 1 all the time and very rarely (less then 10%) of the time hit in round 2 of missile.

AdminJonathan September 29 2007 1:59 PM EDT

defensive DX works like this:

effective_dx = normal_dx + range_bonus*evasion_dx

EC only affects normal dx. It can make normal_dx negative, so in that sense it will cut down defensive dx, but it doesn't reduce the amount of bonus you get from evasion.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 29 2007 2:00 PM EDT

so you've currently got

Range 4 CTH ~= 0
Range 3 CTH ~= 10
Range 2 CTH ~= 100-150
and about the same for the last round

since it seems to go from very little chance to hit, to a much more consistent hit or two around I suspect it certainly is a defensive dex based issue, either that or we're all completely mistaken about evasion multiplication. If minus to hit wasn't multiplied by level, but instead by effect, that might explain what you're seeing.

AdminJonathan September 29 2007 2:03 PM EDT

> If minus to hit wasn't multiplied by level, but instead by effect, that might explain what you're seeing.


QBRanger September 29 2007 2:03 PM EDT

"EC only affects normal dx. It can make normal_dx negative, so in that sense it will cut down defensive dx, but it doesn't reduce the amount of bonus you get from evasion."

Problem figured out.

Not what I thought or even hoped but this should solve my Conundrum, so to speak!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 29 2007 2:05 PM EDT


thanks Jon

QBRanger September 29 2007 2:30 PM EDT

So vs Conundrum


Evasion: 872,016/681,263 (105)

Now in the first round of missile with the max modifier of 2.33

2.33 x 872k = 2.02M My EC should cut that to nothing.

105 * 2.33 = 245 minus to hit PTH, WOW!!!

So his minus PTH is 245 .

My pluses:

150 + 5 (named bow) + 18 (named +5 arrows) + 150 (dex chance to hit) = 323.

So 75% of 323 = 242.

242 + PTH
245 - PTH
So I barely miss in round 1?

But round 4 of missile:

His PTH drops to 105 x 1.33 = 140
While my CTH increases to 323 x .9 (90% modifier in last missie round) =290

So a full hit and 50% chance of another, about what I am seeing.

QBsutekh137 September 29 2007 3:58 PM EDT

"EC only affects normal dex"

Ranger, why do you keep saying your EC reduces his defensive dexterity. I don't think it does. Jonathan kept talking after the above quote, making things confusing (if making it negative then bites into evasion_dx, then saying "EC only affects normal dex" would be an incorrect statement.

But if EC does not, in fact, reduce the defensive detxerity of Evasion, AND the ranged multipliers multiply on EFFECT, then that explains a great deal.

Problem is, I believe Ranger has seen some differences in hits when he plays with his EC. That would mean the statement "EC only affects normal dex" is still very, very confusing.


QBsutekh137 September 29 2007 4:03 PM EDT

OK, I see now... Ranger, your comments appear to be correct, so yeah, I am still not sure why you are having trouble hitting in later ranged rounds, except for the various box penalties that I will admit I completely do not understand. The cth calculations have gotten way too (needlessly) complicated for my taste.

QBRanger September 29 2007 4:08 PM EDT

"EC only affects normal dx. It can make normal_dx negative, so in that sense it will cut down defensive dx, but it doesn't reduce the amount of bonus you get from evasion"

What I take from that statement is that EC works on normal dex + the defensive dex granted by evasion. While the EC does not work on the defensive dex directly, it lowers standard dex to levels below 0.

So for a mage has a his normal dex of 20 and evasion is 1,000,000, with a 500k effective EC one would get:

20-500k = -499,980 native dex, then add evasions defensive dex of 1M so the final dex (defensive dex) is 500,020 for the purposes of calculating dex based CTH.

However, it does not change the number in the (xxx). Which is something I never thought EC did.

However, I did not think evasions multipliers worked directly on the number in the (xxx), which obviously it does.

IE for Sut with (140):

Your minus to PTH is:
Range 5: 140 x 2.33 = 327
Range 4: 140 x 2 = 280
Range 3: 140 x 1.66 = 233
Range 2: 140 x 1.33 = 186
Range 1/melee: 140

The above does not count the extra defensive dex of course.

Quite powerful Evasion is, no?

QBRanger September 29 2007 4:10 PM EDT

Sry Sut, I used 140 not the true value 150 your evasion gives. Either way the principle holds, evasion is so powerful one really needs a TOA to hit evasions over 1M level.

QBsutekh137 September 29 2007 4:12 PM EDT

So are you able to hit me in the later ranged rounds?

My Evasion is 151 now. *grin*

QBRanger September 29 2007 4:14 PM EDT

Very rarely, less then 5% I get 1 hit in the last missile round.

Guess I have to go with a TOA to be able to touch you with a +150 named MsB, +5 named arrows, a 3.3M effective cast Ethereal Chains.

Glad my evasion helps vs enbows and axbows!!!

QBRanger September 29 2007 4:16 PM EDT

But what I still do not understand is if my EC takes away all dex, I should get dex based hits in the laster rounds with all the + I have on my MsB and arrows.

Dex based chance is 150% alone.

Added up I should have over +310 to hit.

So my initial question is:

How am I figuring out the effects of EC on defensive dexterity of evasion wrong?

QBsutekh137 September 29 2007 4:16 PM EDT

Or as Scott Thompson says in a particularly amusing Kids in the Hall skit, "Try it now!":

Evasion: 2,450,608/1,541,263 (164)

See if everything looks kosher.

Yes, Evasion is too powerful, basing it on effect like that, and I hate the fact that A ToA is necessary to hit (and then pretty much guarantees a hit). It's the whole binary scenario again... Where's the nuance? Where's the complexity of minion combinations? Most battle elements are off or on, and about the only thing that utilizes a gestalt setup well is damage reduction (ToE, PL, TSA, VA, MgS, etc.)

QBRanger September 29 2007 4:19 PM EDT

I cannot touch that level evasion.

At least not in missile.

It is very strange that I can get doubles, rarely triples vs Joe in melee but in missile I miss every round.

My MH is +220 but my MSB+arrows is +155

How an an additional .33 multiplier make that much of a difference??????

QBsutekh137 September 29 2007 4:26 PM EDT

Yeah, that is why I am still convinced there are some additional penalties in ranged on your side.

I get hit by crossbows in ranged all the time. Big crossbows, but still.

Like I said, I can't figure it all out, and the parts we know seem very off/on. In any case, we know the multiplication of effect instead of level is responsible for a lot of this... So, thanks for being persistent in your questioning, and Jonathan, thanks for answering. *smile*

QBRanger September 29 2007 5:21 PM EDT

Last time:

Here are the multipliers in ranged for Conundrums evasion:

Evasion: 872,016/681,263 (105)

872 x 2.33 = 2.031 M, minus PTH 245

872 x 2 = 1.744 M, minus PTH 210

872 x 1.66 = 1.44 M, minus PTH 174

872 x 1.33 = 1.160 M, minus PTH 140

My EC casts: Microchips cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3316526)

This should be all my positive PTH:

MsB +150 named = 155
+5 named arrows = 18
Total 173

Let us say there is a 75% CTH for a MSB in all rounds (for the sake of argument) so my PTH will be 130.

My interpretation of what Jon stated is that my EC will cut the defensive dex from evasion by driving the native dex well into the negatives.

Therefore I should have a max dex chance to hit in all rounds which is 150. Take 75% of that 113.

So my CTH with all modifiers AND the 75% chance is 130 + 113 = 243.

Is this reasoning sound?

QBRanger September 29 2007 5:26 PM EDT


With a TOA, I do hit Conundrum in all rounds of missile 2 times.

I miss Bamf in all rounds still.

I only hit Hubbell in the last missile round 2x.

However, please note my archery is far less then 1.0 with a TOA equipped as my str grows to over 2.5M

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 29 2007 5:28 PM EDT

here is bamf's evasion levels:

Evasion: 3,830,387/2,364,437 (198)

Nerevas September 29 2007 5:45 PM EDT

My interpretation is that the defensive dex granted by ranged bonus to evasion is completely untouchable. And it doesn't matter how negative the defensive dex was prior to adding the bonus dex. So if his evasion is:

Evasion: 872,016/681,263 (105)

Round 1: negative infinity dex after EC, but then he gets "untouchable" bonus dex from evasion of 1.33*872,016 = 1,159,781 defensive dex that stands in round 1 for you to combat (2.33 bonus minus the original 1.00 = 1.33).

Round 2: untouchable dex is 872,016. (bonus is 2.0 - 1.0)

Round 3: untouchable dex is 575,530. (bonus of 1.66-1.0)

Round 4: untouchable dex is 287,765. (bonus of 1.33-1.0)

Based on those numbers, you really have no dex based chance to hit until Round 3... Also, the evasion effect multiplies by evasion level, so its not just 2.33 * 105 for Round 1. Its his level * bonus. So he should realistically have something like -156 PTH in round1, and -140? in Round2. Apply your mageseeker penalty to all your PTH and you can see why all these numbers would make you whiff like crazy in the first 2 ranged round.

Nerevas September 29 2007 5:46 PM EDT

Moral of the story: EC is not effective at combating evasion in ranged rounds. Melee though its A-OK.

Nerevas September 29 2007 5:48 PM EDT

Fix: since your archer only has 41k dex, you actually should have no dex based CTH in any ranged round.

QBRanger September 29 2007 5:49 PM EDT

Round 3: untouchable dex is 575,530. (bonus of 1.66-1.0)

Round 4: untouchable dex is 287,765. (bonus of 1.33-1.0)


If that was true, I would never hit Conundrum in 3/4 missile rounds at all, much less get doubles as my routine hits.

My archers native dex is less then 50k. So I would start those rounds with a -150% to hit. Then add the (xxx), 174 in round 3 (range 3) to get a -324% to hit.

My pluses are only 173, so how can I hit in rounds 3/4 of missile with your theory?

QBRanger September 29 2007 6:00 PM EDT

I made a wrong assumption in my calcs.

losing the dex battle does not give me -150 to hit but 0 to hit. You can never get a minus to hit from losing the dex battle, you can only get 0 to hit.

Nerevas September 29 2007 6:14 PM EDT

And cancel all my ramblings. EC does effect dex as we believed, but the direct multiplying of evasion's effect is what is causing the difficulty to hit. This is my final assessment.

QBRanger September 29 2007 6:46 PM EDT

So please please please tell me?

How can I miss Sut completely in missile with the following:

167 MsB, +5 arrows. 173 + 18 = 191 PTH. Last round 90% so 172.

My melee:

220 MH

But in melee I hit Sut 2 times every round and occasionally get TRIPLES!!

How can a difference of 48 PTH change things that much.

With Sut only gaining a .33 modifier to his evasion?

QBRanger September 29 2007 6:47 PM EDT

My MH is effectively 228 so add 8 more to the melee PTH.

Still the difference in melee/missile is 56 including the 90% penalty for the MsB.

QBRanger September 29 2007 11:10 PM EDT

Yet another observation:

My archer misses Bamf with his (198) evasion in all missile rounds...BUT....

The first opportunity in melee, he hits him with his +65 VB not named.

That is over 100 less PTH and he still hits him in melee. Why????

QBsutekh137 September 29 2007 11:48 PM EDT

Exactly -- something is wrong with ranged bows. It can't get much more even than comparing the last round of ranged and the first round of melee where the factors should all be the same.

You have already done a lot, and I respect that, but could you try some crossbows and see if they hit me in ranged? I swear crossbows hit me better in ranged than bows, and I have no idea why...

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 30 2007 8:06 AM EDT

Heres some numbers to crunch

Base Bolts
A Tattoo of Augmentation lvl 3,083,513
DX: 1,037,558/20,000
Gold-Plated Crossbow [4x2010] (+101)

Vs Sut
attack 1 O O X O
attack 2 O O O O
attack 3 O O O X
attack 4 O O O X

X are hits

Its got to based off my ToA's pth or some such but still.
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