RoBF evasion stacking (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 10:25 AM EDT

Cattie Brie pulverized Gordon Gano with Voice of Reckoning [243668]

Cattie Brie crushed Gordon Gano with Voice of Reckoning [252254]

approx +100 weapon verses my +92 db, AoI, and 1.6 mil RoBF
minion has 16000 dex and I have less than 0

Explain to me how I'm getting hit, let alone hit twice; Something is busted.
The RoBF and db should stack the same way the AoI and db do, which should be
the same way the ToA and plus to hit do...
Why isn't item effect stacking consistent?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 10:42 AM EDT

...or if the RoBF and dbs aren't going to stack well...then the RoBF should grant defensive dex.

QBRanger September 27 2007 10:52 AM EDT

Well Draco does use a TOA which gives an extra hit.

And the gets 1.5 hits from the dex part so 2 hits should not be abnormal for him.

Who knows what ammo he is using? Let us say base.
That would be +100 (weapon) + ?100 (TOA) + 150 (dex) = +350

-92 (DB) -20 (AOI) - RBF (?). Let us say at most the RBF gives -50 on top of everything else. So the total minus is 172.

350-172=178. Which is a sure hit and 78% chance for a 2nd. Given the fact your RBF gives 50 more to your minus PTH.

Very rough estimates but certainly 2 hits with him using a TOA is not unrealistic.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 10:53 AM EDT

No ammo, that's a morg...he's using a ToE, not a ToA.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 10:58 AM EDT

still getting hit twice after bringing the dbs up to +99
is 16k dex enough for the 150% dex based chance to hit?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 10:58 AM EDT

finally saw a single hit...still doesn't make a lick of sense.

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:36 AM EDT

vs 20 dex, 100 dex is enough to get max dex cth.

Talion September 27 2007 1:16 PM EDT

Since your DX is at 0, he gets max DX CTH bonus no mater what his DX is as long as it is greater than 0. That CTH is probably around 140% for a Morg. If his weapon is over +100, then he has a over +240 CTH against you (I suspect it is over +250). That is enough to get double hits very often even with your +99 DB's.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 27 2007 1:37 PM EDT

Try training a small EC, since you don't use DM. I suspect if you get his dex into the negative, you will see *a lot* more misses.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 3:42 PM EDT

Talion is apparently reading another thread, or doesn't know about the RoBF change...

I do use DM and therefore can't use EC.

I should have over minus 200 to hit from my DB AoI RoBF... this should do a pretty good job of eliminating double hits, and should produce some misses from my point of view...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 4:10 PM EDT

Without my dbs on at all, I still only get hit twice...this is obviously a stacking issue.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 27 2007 4:56 PM EDT

Yeah I already attempted to stack a 90 evasion 112 db's and 3 mil level Robf together to try the evasion/minus pth thing Jon was talking about... It didn't work.

But anyways heres my stats for you currently, +102 MH and you already saw my dex. It would be nice to figure out why the stacking isn't consistent.

QBRanger September 27 2007 6:01 PM EDT

Blessed Darkness lvl 3,066,440 worth $68,602,301 owned by Adminedyit (Edyit) is a 3M level familiar. NW is 68M. 1/3 of the NW is 23M.

That correlates with about +115 DB. 115 in evasion xp is::(115) 1,077,604

+99 DB's correlates to (99) 757,829

The xp needed for the tattoo evasion level is 14,4M

The xp needed for the DB evasion level is 9.9M

14.4 + 9.9 = 24.3M xp which is 1,746,000 level evasion equivalent.

This corresponds to about (141), but remember there is NO defensive dex.

The AoI gives level 20 evasion xp which is barely any to matter, it does not add linearly but via the xp method so it is negligible.

Draco's EC is 90k so thats not really going to effect the evasions level.

Now lets figure out the PTH of it all.

Draco PTH=133% (MH dex) + 102 (MH+) + 4 (MH naming) = 237.

The minus PTH is about 141.

237 - 141=96, so he should hit you 1 time almost for certain.

Why he hits 2 is ???? to me.

But then again, I cannot figure out why I miss people in missile with my archer with my 3.3M effective EC cast.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 27 2007 6:10 PM EDT

Wrong Tattoo.... Absolutely Flaming lvl 1,639,265 owned by [com-E]novice (Violent Femmes) which is only worth about 35 mil

QBRanger September 27 2007 6:27 PM EDT

Oops
Absolutely Flaming lvl 1,639,265 worth $36,416,322 owned by [com-E]novice (Violent Femmes)

1/3 the NW is 12M.
hat correlates with about +92 DB. 92 in evasion xp is::(92 ) 639,828

+99 DB's correlates to (99) 757,829

The xp needed for the tattoo evasion level is 8,259,000

The xp needed for the DB evasion level is 9.9M

8.259 + 9.9 = 18.159M xp which is 1,337,000 level evasion equivalent.

This corresponds to about (126), but remember there is NO defensive dex.

The AoI gives level 20 evasion xp which is barely any to matter, it does not add linearly but via the xp method so it is negligible.

Draco's EC is 90k so thats not really going to effect the evasions level.

Now lets figure out the PTH of it all.

Draco PTH=133% (MH dex) + 102 (MH+) + 4 (MH naming) = 237.

The minus PTH is about 126.

237 - 126= 111, so he should hit you 1 time and 11% chance for a 2nd hit.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 8:12 PM EDT

I want to know when items minus to hit stopped stacking cleanly... and why the ToA doesn't work the same.

BTW...thank you for all that work Ranger.

QBRanger September 27 2007 9:38 PM EDT

My guess novice:

The evasion curve is much easier then the PTH curve on the TOA.

If evasion/AoI/DB/RBF all stacked linearly nobody would every hit such a minion.

That is just my opinion.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 10:38 PM EDT

I'm not asking for evasion to stack, never was.

The cost to up dbs is identical to the price of PTh, the RoBF gives less minus to hit than the ToA gives plus to hit (which I'm ok with) and yet it doesn't behave like item based bonuses are supposed to. Evasion doesn't stack because it also grants defensive dex, if the RoBF is going to have the weak variety of minus to hit, it should also grant it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 1:58 AM EDT

Remove the minus to hit and have it give 1/3 of it's level as defensive dex, at least that will be useful. As it is now the minus to hit is often completely nullified just by having either evasion trained, or owning dbs of some significant size. Personally I think items using up a tat slot should actually do something.

Kong Ming September 28 2007 5:44 AM EDT

Is there something wrong with evasion recently?
I just fought a character with these stats:
Koganei HP: 41,292 ST: 30,487 DX: 27,630 AC: 160
Evasion Guardian Angel
A Mithril Cuirass A Pair of Leather Gloves
A Pair of Steel-shod Boots A Helm of Durin

A Buckler of Mandos
A Katana
Fuuko HP: 40,241 ST: 20 DX: 21 AC: 63
Evasion Magic Missile Protection
A Pair of Leather Boots A Cabasset
A Pair of Alatar's Gloves A Fire Familiar

A Kite Shield
Mikagami HP: 40,460 ST: 26,922 DX: 25,973 AC: 143
Bloodlust Dispel Magic Vampiric Aura
A Mithril Cuirass A Pair of Leather Gloves
A Pair of Leather Boots A Hard Leather Cap

A Buckler of Mandos
An Executioner's Sword

The character was able to hit me even though my trained evasion is 51,793/32,371 (30). With my RoBF and trained evasion, shouldn't I not get hit at all? My defensive dexterity is almost twice of his dexterity and evasion effect of 30 should be able to cancel out his PTH from weapons.

Kong Ming September 28 2007 5:51 AM EDT

And I mean the tanks were able to hit me during melee rounds.

Flamey September 28 2007 10:11 AM EDT

"Draco PTH=133% (MH dex) + 102 (MH+) + 4 (MH naming) = 237."

MH is 2-handed, where's the 133% come from? Isn't the CTH lower?

KM, I would have no idea why he's hitting you. (I know that wasn't useful, but I did read what you posted)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 3:47 PM EDT

So after some thinking, and looking at what exactly adding 11 mil more NW into my dbs would get me, I'm wondering why item bonuses aren't done this way universally...

The ToA would give a percentage of it's NW toward PTh
The TSA and BoM wouldn't stack by effect, but rather by NW level
AC would go up only if you had added enough NW to put another plus on your Adam
AGs would only increase DD if the additional NW was enough to add another point to the CoI

Having items stack by nw level is a new idea, and if it spread, nearly all items would be as worthless as the RoBF's minus to hit.

QBRanger September 28 2007 5:24 PM EDT

The ToA would give a percentage of it's NW toward PTh- extremely intriguing as it would vary depending on the weapon used. If you use a katana, the TOA would not give as much benefit as using a top 4 weapon.

The TSA and BoM wouldn't stack by effect, but rather by NW level-but there is no NW for a str increase on anything, and given their different upgrade curves, I cannot see this being logical. This idea I do not like.

AC would go up only if you had added enough NW to put another plus on your Adam-Perhaps I can mistaken but is this not the way it is done now. Your AC goes up when you get enough NW to raise your armor.

AGs would only increase DD if the additional NW was enough to add another point to the CoI -Again, like the TSA/BOM thing, what is the NW of the DD spell? That is the problem, also what about those that use NS instead of AG.

Of all your ideas, I really like the TOA one, the others I am not too hot about.

Use 1/3 the NW of the Tattoo added to the + side of the weapon. IE my TOE is 108M NW. 1/3 is about 36M. So what will 36M be added to my MH? About +21 only, However if my MH was less on the + side it would give more. Or use 1/2, but I am sure Jon can find the right amount to add to even things out.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 6:06 PM EDT

The examples I gave were used to show just how silly I think the weak stacking is on the RoBF. If applied to other items the weakness becomes readily apparent. For example your massive tattoo only adding +21, which is complete rubbish.

The other three examples didn't carry the message as well, but I think my point is made...

QBRanger September 28 2007 6:36 PM EDT

The problem is this:

Imagine a set of DB's +100, evasion trained to level 1M-boosted like mine Evasion: 1,359,999/1,000,000 (127) , an AoI (+20), and a RBF of Spiked Shoulder Pads lvl 2,173,322 worth $48,460,496 owned by Flamey (Flamey).

1/3 the NW of the RBF is 16M which is about +102 DBs

If added together linearly:

100 + 127 + 20 + 102 = 349 minus PTH.

WIth a TOA giving 100 and dex giving 150 you still would need a +100 weapon just to have a 1% chance to hit, given a max dex advantage. Not very realistic is it? Especially in missile rounds when evasion is multiplied with its defensive dexterity.

WIth my set of 201 DB's and my RBF one would need to have a +239 weapon just to have a 1% chance to hit me (I already did the math on it). And that is with a MAX dex advantage. I would never ever be hit my physical damage. Freed's bow would have a 11% chance to hit me, IF he got max dex advantage.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 8:43 PM EDT

Where o Where did I say anything about how evasion the skill stacks?

Evasion as a skill's weak stacking is fine, because it also grants defensive dex, remove the 127 you added and I think we're looking at a reasonable level of minus to hit for the investment made.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 8:44 PM EDT

In addtion, a ToA adds +100 at around 1 mil level...so that's not a fair number at all.

QBRanger September 28 2007 8:55 PM EDT

"In addtion, a ToA adds +100 at around 1 mil level...so that's not a fair number at all. "

I do not know where you got that number.

From my experience I found +100 was about 2.5M level tattoo.

QBOddBird September 28 2007 9:17 PM EDT

I'm agreeing with novice here....

Since when did item stacking change from being non-linear?

Evasion stacking's always been weak, and that's for a good reason. But the DBs + AoI thing has always been clear: one on top of the other. I thought the RoBF would add 1/3 its total NW on top as, say, a pair of DBs: like item stacking. Or does it do the funky Evasion stacking, where it would add 1/3 its total NW to the total DB + Evasion EXP + 1/3 RoBF NW kind of thing...'cuz holy cow, that would be confusing. And we all know Jon likes confusing.

As for me, I need to stop typing before I confuse myself.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 9:25 PM EDT

QBOOB, November 18 2006 9:32 AM EST
Ranger was saying last night in Chat that a 1.4M level ToA provides +100 PTH.


Sorry, I was off by 400k...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 9:26 PM EDT

The thread

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 9:30 PM EDT

It appears at this point that it uses the evasion curve (or the DB NW curve) to add PTh, which means a 1.6 mil RoBF adds a little less than 20 to my overall minus to hit. Compare that to a similarly sized ToA, which if previous tests are correct, adds about 100 to the PTh of any weapons equipped.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 9:31 PM EDT

While it may seen sane for the 1/3 NW to just be added on as if you'd put the NW into the dbs, let me remind you you're giving up an item slot.
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