there is no penalty to dex for Archery below 1.0 (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:13 PM EDT

Jon recently stated that archery at less than 1.0 gave a penalty to dex and pth, this is not correct. With my dbs (which are now +113) & AoI & RoBF I still get hit by Edy's MsK. He trains evasion.
X== Hit
Fight 1 0,0,X
Fight 2 0,X,X
Fight 3 0,X,0
Fight 4 X,0,X
Fight 5 0,0,0

This is miserable.

Nerevas September 27 2007 11:17 PM EDT

He reduces you to 0 dex. Even if he had 20 dex, regardless of archery, he has max dex advantage on you. That's 150 P2H for him. Your DBs/AoI/RoBF might add up enough to cancel that out. Then whatever P2H after no-archery penalties he gets from his bow and ammo is what he has left to hit you with. So yes, he still lands hits.. because you have no dex.

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:18 PM EDT

From a previous thread

8.259 + 9.9 = 18.159M xp which is 1,337,000 level evasion equivalent.

Edy has 2M effective cast on his EC so you have no defensive dex vs him.

You do not have evasion so you have no multipliers in ranged.

So here we go:

Pth on the MsB is 76. PTH from the dex bonus is 150.

150 + 76 = 226.

226 x .20 (20% chance to hit without archery) = 45,2,

So Edy has about a 45% chance to hit you in any round in missile. More if he uses upgraded arrows.

I see he hit you 6 times out of 15 rounds, which is 40%.

I see no problems at all.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:19 PM EDT

the 76 doesn't exist Ranger...he gets 1/5 of that.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:20 PM EDT

hmm, I misread that...sorry

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:21 PM EDT

Sry, missed something

Evasion of 1.33M is 126

So Edy has 150 + 76 (+3 for naming)-126 = 73%

Then 20% of that since he has no archery =15%

But we do not know the + on his arrows.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:23 PM EDT

that would be fine Ranger...IF I DIDN'T HAVE DBS AOI & the nearly useless minus to hit of the RoBF.

Nerevas September 27 2007 11:24 PM EDT

Actually what happens is this. His dex penalized 80% (irrelevant in this case) vs your dex = he gets 150 PTH.

His 76 PTH on his bow, probably more from naming, and some more from ammo, is then also penalized by the lack of archery.

My guess is his final hit chance is around 180-190% or so. Your evasion clashes, and is insufficient to prevent him from hitting (but pretty close!)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:27 PM EDT

So the AoI isn't stacking by effect now either?

113 + 20 = 133 (maybe I didn't post the upgrade I did earlier to them)
add in whatever pittance I'm getting for my 1.6 mil RoBF and he'd have to have some hefty arrows...

Nerevas September 27 2007 11:27 PM EDT

Bah, no-archery penalty is difficult to figure out.. but basically the problem is evasion stacks poorly with the evasion items. Get some EBs/AoF and you'll be much better off.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:28 PM EDT

Nere: Jon isn't saying there is a penalty to dex...he said there was a penalty to dex based CTH...not the same thing.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:30 PM EDT

lamest cop out ever Nere...

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:30 PM EDT

Novice,

I find the most important of all factors in determining whether I hit in ranged, no matter the PTH I have is Dex vs Defensive Dex.

If you have the max dex advantage you will get 150% chance to hit. Almost impossible to overcome with just DB's + AoI + RBF. There are of course some DBs out there over 200 which may help but even those have to take the weapons/ammos PTH also into account.

This is the problem I have with EC vs evasion. Even if the multipliers occur before EC takes effect, I should get dex hits on people with my EC.

Something is wrong with things, I hope Jon puts the time/effort (work) into it to figure it out.

Just FYI,

My archer with a 140 named MSB (145 equivalent) and + 5 named arrows (+18 PTH) and a max dex advantage, with archer 1.0 only hits your minion 2 times each round. (most of the time)

I should have a + PTH of 145 + 18 + 150 = 313

You should have a negative PTH of 126.

So 313 - 126 = 187.

So all that DB/AoI/RBF is helping you avoid a triple, possibly a quad vs my archer.

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:31 PM EDT

All your evasion numbers are based on your DB's of 99.

I see you did boost them quite a bit.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 27 2007 11:33 PM EDT

In a hour or so they'll be back at +120...I'd like to see some effect from the NW I'm adding

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:38 PM EDT

At +120, your minus to PTH should be about 140 - 141 by NS's evasions calculations.

Like I stated in my previous post, the dexterity is the part that is killing you. You get no defensive dex from DB/AoI/RBF so anyone will start off with a 150% CTH and go from there.

Add their weapon/arrow PTH and they will be over 250%. Then take away your "evasion" PTH and still it is over 100%. If they use archery, you will be hit 1 time at least every missile round.

If they do not use archery, your looking at about 20-25% chance to be hit in every missile rounds. On average 1 time in missile if they use a HoC.

Please realize this is rough guestimation but close enough for some theories to be taken.

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:39 PM EDT

One other thing that will help you is trying to get a higher tattoo.

Not easy, I know, but that will certainly help get the minus to the PTH up.

Nerevas September 27 2007 11:50 PM EDT

The one thing I can tell you for sure about the archery penalty is max dex advantage is still 150% CTH. This is why I say the penalty applies to the archer's dex, not the CTH. If he had 1,000,000 dex, its reduced to 200k. But if you have 0 dex, he still gets the 150% CTH regardless of having archery or not. The penalty -does- however impact the + on his bow and arrows.

QBRanger September 27 2007 11:56 PM EDT

So using Nere's theory:

150 (dex chance) - 140 (your evasion equivalent) + 20% of (76 + arrow PTH) = Edy's chance to hit you in any missile round.

so about 30% with the upgraded DB's.

Before you upgraded them:

150 - 126 + 20% of 76 = 44%, which is close to what your sample showed.

AdminJonathan September 28 2007 12:01 AM EDT

> Jon isn't saying there is a penalty to dex...he said there was a penalty to dex based CTH...not the same thing.

Right. Or if I didn't, that's what I meant. :)

QBRanger September 28 2007 12:04 AM EDT

Thanks for clearing that up.

in a past post you stated the dex itself was lowered with archer less then 1.0. I think the changelog when I was stating EC/Evasion seemed to me to be a bit buggy.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 1:22 AM EDT

I still want to know when minus to hit from items began stacking badly, and if it only applies to the RoBF or the RoBF and the AoI. From the initial testing when the AoI came out I believe it was shown to stack by effect. All I know is that I'm still not seeing any evidence that what Jon said is actually true. I'll have to check with Edy about his ammo to find out. It's bothers me that statements Jon is directly contradicting seem to match the actual numbers better than the expected result of a real penalty to chance to hit.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 1:37 AM EDT

With the +120 dbs

000
X00
00X
0XX
00X

5 rounds out of 15...still 30%

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 1:54 AM EDT

What I keep forgetting is that the MsK has a max CTH of 90%...

The numbers DO NOT match the results unless Edyit has some massive arrows.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 28 2007 2:02 AM EDT

after untraining my 20k evasion
I had hoped that the issue was caused by training evasion...so such luck

000
00X
X0X
XX0
000

Adminedyit September 28 2007 5:35 AM EDT

my bow Doom [5x1008] (+76)
my arrows 6,349 Arrows [8x1] (+0)
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