ToA bonus (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan September 30 2007 9:57 AM EDT

The ToA has been changed to stack with weapon pth similar to how evasion stacks with DB.

Essentially, 1/3 of the ToA's nw is applied as a pth upgrade to each of ranged and melee weapons. (So, if you have a very expensive weapon, the ToA bonus will be less since the "upgrade" is more expensive.)

QBRanger September 30 2007 9:59 AM EDT

We all should thank/hate Novice for that idea.

Excellent idea Jon, just excellent!!!!

QBJohnnywas September 30 2007 10:01 AM EDT

Ah, that's why my fightlist just changed......

Damn your hide Novice.....:/

lostling September 30 2007 10:02 AM EDT


Flamey September 30 2007 10:03 AM EDT


QBRanger September 30 2007 10:05 AM EDT

I would have to assume it changes when you change weapons, on the fly?

IE when going from missile to melee weapon it automatically calculates it for each weapon, not split among both?

QBJohnnywas September 30 2007 10:07 AM EDT

Less bonus for more expensive weapons maybe, but it also hits low NW ToA teams like mine; not only can I not afford the PTH upgrades the way some people can, now I've lost a lot of very helpful bonus as well. It's a shame really - I understand why people wanted the ToA nerfed, but it now makes it more difficult to run a tank team if you don't have the cash to do so.

QBRanger September 30 2007 10:09 AM EDT


What's your tattoo? What's your Max Tattoo Level?

What's your weapon?

Flamey September 30 2007 10:12 AM EDT

I added someone and now completely win against someone I didn't.


AdminJonathan September 30 2007 10:12 AM EDT

> IE when going from missile to melee weapon it automatically calculates it for each weapon, not split among both?


QBJohnnywas September 30 2007 10:24 AM EDT

I've got this:

Tattoo Of Augmentation lvl 1,549,121 NW: 34,383,365

Giantkiller(named SoD) [5x2732] (+50) worth $26,644,155

(Yeah, I know it's low on the +!)

QBOddBird September 30 2007 10:25 AM EDT

"Essentially, 1/3 of the ToA's nw is applied as a pth upgrade to each of ranged and melee weapons. (So, if you have a very expensive weapon, the ToA bonus will be less since the "upgrade" is more expensive.)"

JW, seems like it would hit the high NW ToA teams, not the low NW ToA teams. I.E. unless you have an expensive weapon, it isn't hitting you that hard?

Unless....everyone is still under the assumption that a 25M weapon is normal and what every team should have by 500k MPR!

QBOddBird September 30 2007 10:26 AM EDT

Awww, pfft. It is adding 11 MILLION NW to your PTH. ToA users kill me.

QBJohnnywas September 30 2007 10:27 AM EDT

Some of what was happening would appear to be Jon's changes to evasion; I have my top end fightlist back now....I'll fight a bit more and see how it goes.

Flamey September 30 2007 10:27 AM EDT

exactly what OB said.

It nerfs those with enormous weapons. Though for your SoD, it wont be bad, because your PTH is still relatively low, and that's what this change is about.

QBJohnnywas September 30 2007 10:30 AM EDT

Actually with Jon's fix to his evasion change I've got everyone back on my list. Seems like I'd lost a dex based hit rather than a PTH hit....

So everythings fine again!!!!!

lostling September 30 2007 10:35 AM EDT

smile :)

QBOddBird September 30 2007 10:38 AM EDT

I must definitely say that I like this change a lot. Nice one, Jonathan! ^_^

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 30 2007 11:03 AM EDT

I'm so sorry.
The creation of this was as if-->then statement, I didn't want this.

On the other's a really nice change.

Mikel September 30 2007 11:06 AM EDT

OK So now with all of these changes, don't you think we should be able to have a free retraining?

horseguy001 September 30 2007 3:59 PM EDT

Awesome change!

This is the *perfect* fix to the ToA. Low NW teams are unaffected, and huge weapons are back down to earth. Great! :D

AdminG Beee September 30 2007 6:38 PM EDT

Fun tho they may be, for the record, and for what it's worth. I hate the idea of free retrains except in exceptional circumstances.

Just my opinion :-)

AdminG Beee September 30 2007 6:40 PM EDT

...and I don't think the recent changes qualify as exceptional circumstances.

AdminNightStrike September 30 2007 7:51 PM EDT

Tattoo NW goes up faster as level increases, so the stipulation that the TOA bonus is less as the weapon PTH grows may need to be investigated.

Ancient Anubis September 30 2007 9:57 PM EDT

i would like to second mikels push for a free retraining unless jon has yet more changes to implement

QBOddBird September 30 2007 10:11 PM EDT

I have to disagree, I believe Jonathan lowered untraining costs DRAMATICALLY a while back specifically for that purpose.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 30 2007 10:16 PM EDT

"AdminJonathan, April 12 12:48 PM EDT
Intrinsics now untrain at 95%; everything else at 98.

In related news, I'm not planning any free retraining periods soon. :)"

QBOddBird September 30 2007 10:24 PM EDT

On an unrelated note, how does this ToA bonus stack with the UC weapon? I suppose we're going to assume effect = PTH still?

Mikel September 30 2007 10:39 PM EDT

Well let's see, GB, you're archery is barely in the top 10, mine is the tops in the game, and I have .76 with my strat and have been training on it since this change and only moved up from .75.

True, Jon did lower the penalties, but he also said that one wouldn't be coming soon unless there was enough change to warrant it.

You don't think changing 6/10 of the Tattoo's in the game and changing two of the most popular and most trained skills is enough do you?

Last time we had a free retraining:
Added Junction, HF and EH.
Fixed HoC retargeting
Tweaked Draining Ex-bows.
Changed the TSA, and Boosted the CoC.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] September 30 2007 10:53 PM EDT

penalties to retrain were also lowered.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] September 30 2007 10:55 PM EDT

Intrinsics now untrain at 95%; everything else at 98.

In related news, I'm not planning any free retraining periods soon. :)

quoted from Jon.

Mikel September 30 2007 10:58 PM EDT

The lowered penalties was done in April, the last retrain was in Jan.

And I know what Jon said. I have even quoted it myself. TYVM.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] September 30 2007 11:10 PM EDT

2% and 5% penalties are not that bad at all.

Mikel September 30 2007 11:18 PM EDT

You're right, 5-7 mil exp is not alot, that's about what I need trained into my Archery.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] September 30 2007 11:24 PM EDT

guess a retrain in not an option for you then. best get fighting. You could do it in less then a month I think.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 1 2007 1:43 AM EDT

...or you could retrain your DM...which wouldn't lose you much at all.

The penalties are the core of the game, without them we'd be bored already.

AdminG Beee October 1 2007 6:06 AM EDT

I sympathise Mikel, however I don't agree a retrain is necessary.
My archery is in the top 10 yet will be maxed out in a matter of days. To offer a retrain for such a relatively small impact in terms of users affected would be flawed imo.

For me you have a strategic (if somewhat painful) decision to make. Unlearn or patiently build... :-S

Flamey October 1 2007 7:00 AM EDT

I thought you said your fightlist didn't change at all with the Archery change, and at 0.75 you could still hit everyone perfectly fine.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 1 2007 7:09 AM EDT

But keep in mind, Flamey, that there was also a change to Toa as well. So in essence he isn't fighting at his full potential after two changes that hurt him or at the least made things a little more difficult.

QBJohnnywas October 1 2007 7:10 AM EDT

I propose a free retrain only for those using the ToA and/or archery.

Can't hurt to suggest it! ;)

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 1 2007 7:19 AM EDT

Agreed JohnnyWrotten

Mikel October 1 2007 7:25 AM EDT

Flamey, The first change didn't change my fight list, the second one did.

Talion October 1 2007 8:49 AM EDT

I love this change!

TheHatchetman October 1 2007 9:59 AM EDT

Okay, but in all honesty, when was the last time your fightlist changed at all, Mikel? Yeah, it seems like your strat got picked on, and it cost ya some spots. But isn't that what being Mikel is all about? Getting so close to assured victory that you can taste it, only to have it snatched out from under ya. What? You thought it was just limited to your N*Bs? :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 1 2007 10:03 AM EDT

...and what is your archery at after switching to an AoI?

I think when your problem could be solved by a minor temporary equipment change it becomes obvious that you've got other reasons for wanting the free untrain period.

TheHatchetman October 1 2007 10:17 AM EDT

Very true. AoI/EGs instead of AoM/BGs should put ya right back to 1.00. Not sure how much extra damage ya really even need with a bow as big as yours...

lostling October 1 2007 10:20 AM EDT

AOF ;) its not like your fighting ranger lol

Lord Bob October 1 2007 11:02 AM EDT

Excellent change.

TheHatchetman October 1 2007 11:04 AM EDT

The Lega would eat up an AoF...

QBOddBird October 1 2007 12:22 PM EDT

If you build your strategy around items that you know are overpowered and WILL be changed, there's no reason to go asking for favors when that change finally comes...just my personal opinion.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 1 2007 5:27 PM EDT

/Me points at the Vorpal Blade

velvetpickle October 1 2007 5:35 PM EDT

I think this adjustment is a bit harsh... I am not what you would call a HUGE NW tank, but I have a fair ammount of gear most prizedly so a level 2mil+ TOA.

According to old information on the TOA it was thought that a level 450k TOA gave roughly 45 - 50 pth, but that it was not linear.

On my +100 ELB and MH adding another 7 points costs right around 3mil. My Toa is currently NW 45 mil. One third of that is 15mil.... that means at the most a level 2mil TOA is giving me only +35 pth! And my weapons are not what you would call UBER.

It seems a bit harsh to drop 10 points lower than a tattoo 1/4 the size of mine, but that is just me.

QBRanger October 1 2007 5:52 PM EDT

I think one has to agree this change has made a huge difference in the power of the TOA.

However, most people would agree that the PTH on the TOA was excessive the way it was before this recent change.

I am certain if the change is too drastic, Jon can reevaluate it next changemonth and boost the NW % the TOA gives from 1/3 to perhaps 1/2 or 2/3 as is needed.

Mikel October 1 2007 6:17 PM EDT

I am fine with all of the changes (even the ones to the ToA and Archery), I just wished that they both hadn't happened so fast back to back before most Tanks even have a chance to get their Archery back up to 1.0. And I'm not the only tank that would like to adjust to this change.

.77 Moving right along.....

I would just like an opportunity to change my Strat around so that I can adjust to the new ToA.

And yes, I need the BG's to hit Joe hard enough to kill him in one Round. I also need the AoM to survive Lega.

Is that so much to ask for?

QBJohnnywas October 1 2007 6:40 PM EDT

VP, as a long term ToA user I wasn't sure about this change; but as a low NW weapon user I probably haven't lost as much bonus to my PTH as I thought. Against a few people I hit doubles now, where I used to hit triples but I still have some triples going on too. And the people PTH counts most against, evasion people, well they've lost some power too. So there is a kind of balance at play.

I'd hazard a guess that the only person really affected by the change to the ToA is Mikel; although we won't know for certain until that archery is back to full level.....

QBRanger October 1 2007 6:44 PM EDT


I do feel for you, however, my archer had his archery drop to .75 as well.

I had to unlearn his dexterity to get my archery back to 1.0. While it is painful and you do lose some xp, you can do the same with your protection and/or DM on your archer. Each is only a 2% xp loss, not that much compared to the 5% I had to do with unlearning dexterity.

I would prefer a day of free retraining, but Jon made it pretty clear with the lower xp loss, it is not likely to happen for quite a long time.

Unfortunately this changemonth really hurt you, how much we will not know completely till your archery is 1.0. However, the lower evasion levels may compensate somehow for that.

QBsutekh137 October 1 2007 10:33 PM EDT

Actually, Mikel, it is too much to ask for.

You are basically saying this:

"I deserve to beat everyone, so when a change is made where I can no longer beat everyone, I should get a freebie in order to return to being able to beat everyone."

For goodness sake, our PRs are the same. I should be a guaranteed win? Wait, yeah, you're right. I should be. You have a big MgS. Easy. Because that's fair.

Your NW is amazing, though! Yeah. Just part of my point. Our PRs are identical and I don't stand a chance against you. You get to hide MASSIVE power in the asinine Weapon Allowance. Oops, sorry, I mean, now, amidst hardship, you don't get a guaranteed win. What a gosh-darn tragedy! You should ask for your supportership money back!

I can't remember the last time I had my ire up over...anything. But I've finally read all your posts (across various threads) and relived the revile I faced when I dared to speak out against some things in the game I just got fed up with. Fed up as I was losing people off my fightlist and not sure if they were ever coming back.

In the meantime, you're sitting there without a _single_ winning attacker on your 24-hour log and you are STILL making posts whining about your archery stat! It's the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in four years of playing! Are you serious?

Lumpy Koala October 1 2007 11:31 PM EDT

there should never be free untraining to begin with :P Even when it's the old percentage , Jon has spoilt you guys too much.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] October 1 2007 11:37 PM EDT

I'm not saying that we should have a free retrain, but constantly un-training does reduce your MPR quite a bit, even with the reduced percentages. Once in a while should be fine just for a little experimentation or some readjusting to changemonth, not never.

QBsutekh137 October 1 2007 11:48 PM EDT

Mikel has a good point about his changes having to be intrinsics (were he to retrain), and he and I have been communicating in CM. I see his point (and should have made that more clear before throwing a hissy-fit), but I still think that there are folks who don't understand that while they get to decide who to beat on, we have to decide who we can beat and who we can't. Mikel's "can't" list is precious-zero right now, so I bristle a bit.

DreadedTiger [4x20] (-x) October 3 2007 7:45 PM EDT

My question comes in with the difference in raising the PTH cost on weapons as it gains in NW vs. the ever expanding amount of exp being able to be put into Evasion not to mention NW in DBs. How would a weapon ever really be able to keep up with someone with a large portion of their exp in Evasion? And as we all grow higher in MPR, and as the largest Evasion grows and grows, is the game based on having to put EXPONENTIALLY more and more money into the game to keep up with exp? Even forging couldn't keep up with the rate at which someone training Evasion would raise..

I have no quarrels about the ToA, persay, but I think a rescale on weapon PTH at higher levels should be considered. I suppose we will see in time, though. :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 3 2007 8:36 PM EDT

the XP curve is also extremely harsh, by the time you can avoid even two full attacks, you're already paying at least 14 xp per point of evasion

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] October 3 2007 8:42 PM EDT

stat points have a far bigger exponential curve than the PTH on a weapon.
Yes, a cost of 16 seems to be as far as most things will get for a long time but the amount of levels needed grows at a huge exponential, I'm not planning on seeing an Evasion of 200 by the end of the year or even for quite a while after that.

Flamey October 3 2007 8:44 PM EDT

You're saying that people who invest more than half of their team's xp should be able to get hit? I'm absolutely fine with not being able to hit bamf and silver golem because they've invested so much into Evasion.

It's like saying AMF shouldn't kill you quickly even if it is above your DD level.

QBRanger October 4 2007 12:47 AM EDT

"You're saying that people who invest more than half of their team's xp should be able to get hit?"

So, by your theory someone like me who invests 40% of his xp into EC should be able to hit anyone? Given my MPR?

It all depends on how someone is setup, what weapons they use and where they invest their xp.

A blanket statement like that is not correct.

RichardRahl{Kill Gun} October 4 2007 12:14 PM EDT

-dances- ohhh yeah!

Flamey October 4 2007 12:49 PM EDT

The main message is still there, you can be more specific if you wish, of course it depends on the spell/skill and the MPR/PR of the teams in question. All in all, if someone invests a large amount of experience, you can't possibly say you want to be wasted when it should be working against you. As in, 7 mil AMF gets wasted on a tank team, fair enough.

Lumpy Koala October 5 2007 7:48 PM EDT

Sorry my question comes too late :P not sure if it has been answered. Just wondering how does the new PTH bonus from TOA adds to UC PTH ? They don't really have a "upgrade cost" :) Is it 1/3 N/W added to exp trained? Or it doesn't work at all for UC? Did anyone try this?

Flamey October 5 2007 7:53 PM EDT

I have an idea that when people tried to figure out the base damage of UC, they said it was roughly above a katana. So maybe it'd work as something a little cheaper than the katana.

QBRanger October 5 2007 7:53 PM EDT

One would have to assume it would stack just like the RBF stacks with evasion.

Then the new "hidden" level you do not see you fight with.

Lumpy Koala October 6 2007 9:37 AM EDT

But Evasion bonus from RoBF uses DB's N/W as reference. It's not really applicable to UC. The only possible reference are Helm's gloves :P Just want to make sure before I jump in and buy a TOA

DreadedTiger [4x20] (-x) October 7 2007 10:01 PM EDT

Maybe a fix in the way of how DX and Evasion work together could balance the XP vs. NW of PTH and Evasion. This would also assume PTH and DX would work together again, too.

This would of course bring into question EC and it's effect on Evasion and DBs and PTH on top of DX. I'm sure there are those who sympathize and those who don't, so let's hear what you have to say?

I just don't see a need for DX right now if defensive DX is "unkillable" by XP..

QBRanger October 7 2007 10:02 PM EDT

Defensive dex is killable by EC. Just the modifiers in ranged take place before EC is applied. Also, an axbow can drain defensive dex.

Unappreciated Misnomer October 13 2007 2:07 PM EDT

how is this going to affect UC minions? there is no NW to the skill

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2007 2:21 PM EDT

...there is however a weapon it's PTh is based on, I assume that is being used.

QBOddBird October 15 2007 4:01 PM EDT

I asked that very question about the UC weapon and it was apparently not worth officially answering. *shrugs*
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002EaB">ToA bonus</a>