September 30 2007 9:57 AM EDT
The ToA has been changed to stack with weapon pth similar to how evasion stacks with DB.
Essentially, 1/3 of the ToA's nw is applied as a pth upgrade to each of ranged and melee weapons. (So, if you have a very expensive weapon, the ToA bonus will be less since the "upgrade" is more expensive.)
September 30 2007 9:59 AM EDT
We all should thank/hate Novice for that idea.
Excellent idea Jon, just excellent!!!!
September 30 2007 10:01 AM EDT
Ah, that's why my fightlist just changed......
Damn your hide Novice.....:/
September 30 2007 10:02 AM EDT
September 30 2007 10:03 AM EDT
September 30 2007 10:05 AM EDT
I would have to assume it changes when you change weapons, on the fly?
IE when going from missile to melee weapon it automatically calculates it for each weapon, not split among both?
September 30 2007 10:07 AM EDT
Less bonus for more expensive weapons maybe, but it also hits low NW ToA teams like mine; not only can I not afford the PTH upgrades the way some people can, now I've lost a lot of very helpful bonus as well. It's a shame really - I understand why people wanted the ToA nerfed, but it now makes it more difficult to run a tank team if you don't have the cash to do so.
September 30 2007 10:09 AM EDT
What's your tattoo? What's your Max Tattoo Level?
What's your weapon?
September 30 2007 10:12 AM EDT
I added someone and now completely win against someone I didn't.
September 30 2007 10:12 AM EDT
> IE when going from missile to melee weapon it automatically calculates it for each weapon, not split among both?
September 30 2007 10:24 AM EDT
I've got this:
Tattoo Of Augmentation lvl 1,549,121 NW: 34,383,365
Giantkiller(named SoD) [5x2732] (+50) worth $26,644,155
(Yeah, I know it's low on the +!)
September 30 2007 10:25 AM EDT
"Essentially, 1/3 of the ToA's nw is applied as a pth upgrade to each of ranged and melee weapons. (So, if you have a very expensive weapon, the ToA bonus will be less since the "upgrade" is more expensive.)"
JW, seems like it would hit the high NW ToA teams, not the low NW ToA teams. I.E. unless you have an expensive weapon, it isn't hitting you that hard?
Unless....everyone is still under the assumption that a 25M weapon is normal and what every team should have by 500k MPR!
September 30 2007 10:26 AM EDT
Awww, pfft. It is adding 11 MILLION NW to your PTH. ToA users kill me.
September 30 2007 10:27 AM EDT
Some of what was happening would appear to be Jon's changes to evasion; I have my top end fightlist back now....I'll fight a bit more and see how it goes.
September 30 2007 10:27 AM EDT
exactly what OB said.
It nerfs those with enormous weapons. Though for your SoD, it wont be bad, because your PTH is still relatively low, and that's what this change is about.
September 30 2007 10:30 AM EDT
Actually with Jon's fix to his evasion change I've got everyone back on my list. Seems like I'd lost a dex based hit rather than a PTH hit....
So everythings fine again!!!!!
September 30 2007 10:35 AM EDT
September 30 2007 10:38 AM EDT
I must definitely say that I like this change a lot. Nice one, Jonathan! ^_^
I'm so sorry.
The creation of this was as if-->then statement, I didn't want this.
On the other hand...it's a really nice change.
OK So now with all of these changes, don't you think we should be able to have a free retraining?
September 30 2007 3:59 PM EDT
This is the *perfect* fix to the ToA. Low NW teams are unaffected, and huge weapons are back down to earth. Great! :D
September 30 2007 6:38 PM EDT
Fun tho they may be, for the record, and for what it's worth. I hate the idea of free retrains except in exceptional circumstances.
Just my opinion :-)
September 30 2007 6:40 PM EDT
...and I don't think the recent changes qualify as exceptional circumstances.
Tattoo NW goes up faster as level increases, so the stipulation that the TOA bonus is less as the weapon PTH grows may need to be investigated.
September 30 2007 9:57 PM EDT
i would like to second mikels push for a free retraining unless jon has yet more changes to implement
September 30 2007 10:11 PM EDT
I have to disagree, I believe Jonathan lowered untraining costs DRAMATICALLY a while back specifically for that purpose.
"AdminJonathan, April 12 12:48 PM EDT
Intrinsics now untrain at 95%; everything else at 98.
In related news, I'm not planning any free retraining periods soon. :)"
September 30 2007 10:24 PM EDT
On an unrelated note, how does this ToA bonus stack with the UC weapon? I suppose we're going to assume effect = PTH still?
Well let's see, GB, you're archery is barely in the top 10, mine is the tops in the game, and I have .76 with my strat and have been training on it since this change and only moved up from .75.
True, Jon did lower the penalties, but he also said that one wouldn't be coming soon unless there was enough change to warrant it.
You don't think changing 6/10 of the Tattoo's in the game and changing two of the most popular and most trained skills is enough do you?
Last time we had a free retraining:
Added Junction, HF and EH.
Fixed HoC retargeting
Tweaked Draining Ex-bows.
Changed the TSA, and Boosted the CoC.
penalties to retrain were also lowered.
Intrinsics now untrain at 95%; everything else at 98.
In related news, I'm not planning any free retraining periods soon. :)
quoted from Jon.
The lowered penalties was done in April, the last retrain was in Jan.
And I know what Jon said. I have even quoted it myself. TYVM.
2% and 5% penalties are not that bad at all.
You're right, 5-7 mil exp is not alot, that's about what I need trained into my Archery.
guess a retrain in not an option for you then. best get fighting. You could do it in less then a month I think.
...or you could retrain your DM...which wouldn't lose you much at all.
The penalties are the core of the game, without them we'd be bored already.
October 1 2007 6:06 AM EDT
I sympathise Mikel, however I don't agree a retrain is necessary.
For me you have a strategic (if somewhat painful) decision to make. Unlearn or patiently build... :-S
October 1 2007 7:00 AM EDT
I thought you said your fightlist didn't change at all with the Archery change, and at 0.75 you could still hit everyone perfectly fine.
But keep in mind, Flamey, that there was also a change to Toa as well. So in essence he isn't fighting at his full potential after two changes that hurt him or at the least made things a little more difficult.
October 1 2007 7:10 AM EDT
I propose a free retrain only for those using the ToA and/or archery.
Can't hurt to suggest it! ;)
Flamey, The first change didn't change my fight list, the second one did.
October 1 2007 8:49 AM EDT
I love this change!
October 1 2007 9:59 AM EDT
Okay, but in all honesty, when was the last time your fightlist changed at all, Mikel? Yeah, it seems like your strat got picked on, and it cost ya some spots. But isn't that what being Mikel is all about? Getting so close to assured victory that you can taste it, only to have it snatched out from under ya. What? You thought it was just limited to your N*Bs? :P
...and what is your archery at after switching to an AoI?
I think when your problem could be solved by a minor temporary equipment change it becomes obvious that you've got other reasons for wanting the free untrain period.
October 1 2007 10:17 AM EDT
Very true. AoI/EGs instead of AoM/BGs should put ya right back to 1.00. Not sure how much extra damage ya really even need with a bow as big as yours...
October 1 2007 10:20 AM EDT
AOF ;) its not like your fighting ranger lol
October 1 2007 11:02 AM EDT
October 1 2007 11:04 AM EDT
The Lega would eat up an AoF...
October 1 2007 12:22 PM EDT
If you build your strategy around items that you know are overpowered and WILL be changed, there's no reason to go asking for favors when that change finally comes...just my personal opinion.
/Me points at the Vorpal Blade
October 1 2007 5:35 PM EDT
I think this adjustment is a bit harsh... I am not what you would call a HUGE NW tank, but I have a fair ammount of gear most prizedly so a level 2mil+ TOA.
According to old information on the TOA it was thought that a level 450k TOA gave roughly 45 - 50 pth, but that it was not linear.
On my +100 ELB and MH adding another 7 points costs right around 3mil. My Toa is currently NW 45 mil. One third of that is 15mil.... that means at the most a level 2mil TOA is giving me only +35 pth! And my weapons are not what you would call UBER.
It seems a bit harsh to drop 10 points lower than a tattoo 1/4 the size of mine, but that is just me.
October 1 2007 5:52 PM EDT
I think one has to agree this change has made a huge difference in the power of the TOA.
However, most people would agree that the PTH on the TOA was excessive the way it was before this recent change.
I am certain if the change is too drastic, Jon can reevaluate it next changemonth and boost the NW % the TOA gives from 1/3 to perhaps 1/2 or 2/3 as is needed.
I am fine with all of the changes (even the ones to the ToA and Archery), I just wished that they both hadn't happened so fast back to back before most Tanks even have a chance to get their Archery back up to 1.0. And I'm not the only tank that would like to adjust to this change.
.77 Moving right along.....
I would just like an opportunity to change my Strat around so that I can adjust to the new ToA.
And yes, I need the BG's to hit Joe hard enough to kill him in one Round. I also need the AoM to survive Lega.
Is that so much to ask for?
October 1 2007 6:40 PM EDT
VP, as a long term ToA user I wasn't sure about this change; but as a low NW weapon user I probably haven't lost as much bonus to my PTH as I thought. Against a few people I hit doubles now, where I used to hit triples but I still have some triples going on too. And the people PTH counts most against, evasion people, well they've lost some power too. So there is a kind of balance at play.
I'd hazard a guess that the only person really affected by the change to the ToA is Mikel; although we won't know for certain until that archery is back to full level.....
October 1 2007 6:44 PM EDT
I do feel for you, however, my archer had his archery drop to .75 as well.
I had to unlearn his dexterity to get my archery back to 1.0. While it is painful and you do lose some xp, you can do the same with your protection and/or DM on your archer. Each is only a 2% xp loss, not that much compared to the 5% I had to do with unlearning dexterity.
I would prefer a day of free retraining, but Jon made it pretty clear with the lower xp loss, it is not likely to happen for quite a long time.
Unfortunately this changemonth really hurt you, how much we will not know completely till your archery is 1.0. However, the lower evasion levels may compensate somehow for that.
October 1 2007 10:33 PM EDT
Actually, Mikel, it is too much to ask for.
You are basically saying this:
"I deserve to beat everyone, so when a change is made where I can no longer beat everyone, I should get a freebie in order to return to being able to beat everyone."
For goodness sake, our PRs are the same. I should be a guaranteed win? Wait, yeah, you're right. I should be. You have a big MgS. Easy. Because that's fair.
Your NW is amazing, though! Yeah. Just part of my point. Our PRs are identical and I don't stand a chance against you. You get to hide MASSIVE power in the asinine Weapon Allowance. Oops, sorry, I mean, now, amidst hardship, you don't get a guaranteed win. What a gosh-darn tragedy! You should ask for your supportership money back!
I can't remember the last time I had my ire up over...anything. But I've finally read all your posts (across various threads) and relived the revile I faced when I dared to speak out against some things in the game I just got fed up with. Fed up as I was losing people off my fightlist and not sure if they were ever coming back.
In the meantime, you're sitting there without a _single_ winning attacker on your 24-hour log and you are STILL making posts whining about your archery stat! It's the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in four years of playing! Are you serious?
October 1 2007 11:31 PM EDT
there should never be free untraining to begin with :P Even when it's the old percentage , Jon has spoilt you guys too much.
I'm not saying that we should have a free retrain, but constantly un-training does reduce your MPR quite a bit, even with the reduced percentages. Once in a while should be fine just for a little experimentation or some readjusting to changemonth, not never.
October 1 2007 11:48 PM EDT
Mikel has a good point about his changes having to be intrinsics (were he to retrain), and he and I have been communicating in CM. I see his point (and should have made that more clear before throwing a hissy-fit), but I still think that there are folks who don't understand that while they get to decide who to beat on, we have to decide who we can beat and who we can't. Mikel's "can't" list is precious-zero right now, so I bristle a bit.
My question comes in with the difference in raising the PTH cost on weapons as it gains in NW vs. the ever expanding amount of exp being able to be put into Evasion not to mention NW in DBs. How would a weapon ever really be able to keep up with someone with a large portion of their exp in Evasion? And as we all grow higher in MPR, and as the largest Evasion grows and grows, is the game based on having to put EXPONENTIALLY more and more money into the game to keep up with exp? Even forging couldn't keep up with the rate at which someone training Evasion would raise..
I have no quarrels about the ToA, persay, but I think a rescale on weapon PTH at higher levels should be considered. I suppose we will see in time, though. :)
the XP curve is also extremely harsh, by the time you can avoid even two full attacks, you're already paying at least 14 xp per point of evasion
stat points have a far bigger exponential curve than the PTH on a weapon.
Yes, a cost of 16 seems to be as far as most things will get for a long time but the amount of levels needed grows at a huge exponential, I'm not planning on seeing an Evasion of 200 by the end of the year or even for quite a while after that.
October 3 2007 8:44 PM EDT
You're saying that people who invest more than half of their team's xp should be able to get hit? I'm absolutely fine with not being able to hit bamf and silver golem because they've invested so much into Evasion.
It's like saying AMF shouldn't kill you quickly even if it is above your DD level.
October 4 2007 12:47 AM EDT
"You're saying that people who invest more than half of their team's xp should be able to get hit?"
So, by your theory someone like me who invests 40% of his xp into EC should be able to hit anyone? Given my MPR?
It all depends on how someone is setup, what weapons they use and where they invest their xp.
A blanket statement like that is not correct.
October 4 2007 12:49 PM EDT
The main message is still there, you can be more specific if you wish, of course it depends on the spell/skill and the MPR/PR of the teams in question. All in all, if someone invests a large amount of experience, you can't possibly say you want to be wasted when it should be working against you. As in, 7 mil AMF gets wasted on a tank team, fair enough.
October 5 2007 7:48 PM EDT
Sorry my question comes too late :P not sure if it has been answered. Just wondering how does the new PTH bonus from TOA adds to UC PTH ? They don't really have a "upgrade cost" :) Is it 1/3 N/W added to exp trained? Or it doesn't work at all for UC? Did anyone try this?
October 5 2007 7:53 PM EDT
I have an idea that when people tried to figure out the base damage of UC, they said it was roughly above a katana. So maybe it'd work as something a little cheaper than the katana.
October 5 2007 7:53 PM EDT
One would have to assume it would stack just like the RBF stacks with evasion.
Then the new "hidden" level you do not see you fight with.
October 6 2007 9:37 AM EDT
But Evasion bonus from RoBF uses DB's N/W as reference. It's not really applicable to UC. The only possible reference are Helm's gloves :P Just want to make sure before I jump in and buy a TOA
Maybe a fix in the way of how DX and Evasion work together could balance the XP vs. NW of PTH and Evasion. This would also assume PTH and DX would work together again, too.
This would of course bring into question EC and it's effect on Evasion and DBs and PTH on top of DX. I'm sure there are those who sympathize and those who don't, so let's hear what you have to say?
I just don't see a need for DX right now if defensive DX is "unkillable" by XP..
October 7 2007 10:02 PM EDT
Defensive dex is killable by EC. Just the modifiers in ranged take place before EC is applied. Also, an axbow can drain defensive dex.
how is this going to affect UC minions? there is no NW to the skill
...there is however a weapon it's PTh is based on, I assume that is being used.
October 15 2007 4:01 PM EDT
I asked that very question about the UC weapon and it was apparently not worth officially answering. *shrugs*
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