Opinions: Should 6/20 threshold be lowered? (in General)

Flamey October 6 2007 12:44 AM EDT

That's what I want to know. I want to know if you think it'd be appropriate to lower the 6/20 around a certain point where your ChB = 0%, after that we get penalised for not being in 6/20. I believe somewhere between 45-55% would be that area. I know that 40% is the 7/20 threshold, so maybe 50%, this could be constantly changing, I currently don't know why I'm getting such a low bonus, we're not lacking that many people are we? I fight people that are my score and a bit below. Is it because of the people like right at the top? not enough of them? They keep our score down so we get crappy bonuses off each other?

Flamey October 10 2007 10:00 AM EDT

I refuse to let this die. Opinions please. Bump.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2007 10:36 AM EDT

Fight Nekkid!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2007 10:43 AM EDT

To elaborate on my stupidity above, fighting using an RoE until you hit 6/20 is likely your best option. With a build like yours, fighting tatless shouldn't hurt you too badly, and since you'll be getting no negative chal bonus once you're in 6/20, you can make up for the lost tat levels rather quickly. Fighting lean is key to getting (and staying if you are the type who misses BA) up to the "top" shelf.

Flamey October 10 2007 11:41 AM EDT

You'd think that using a RoE wouldn't hurt my strat too bad, but unlike my clan members, I rely on my RoS much more it seems. All my EDs seem crucial to my build and get demolished without the RoS, the lack of HP helps as well.

Flamey October 10 2007 11:44 AM EDT

Right now I'd have to gain almost 400k MPR to get there, with this awesome Challenge bonus helping me along the way.

Lumpy Koala October 10 2007 12:44 PM EDT

just curious, how much is the average xp gained per battle does Koy get ?

It makes me feel like using ROE isn't going any faster in chasing his gains :P

BootyGod October 10 2007 12:56 PM EDT

Simply, I agree with Flamey.

QBJohnnywas October 10 2007 12:58 PM EDT

I'd like to know when I'm going to hit 7/20. I've been 8/20 forever...

BootyGod October 10 2007 1:02 PM EDT

= 1.28 and 7/10 so have hope, young Rotten.

Yukk October 10 2007 1:05 PM EDT

When I was about 100k away from hitting 6/20 while using an RoE for fighting, I calculated every day how I was doing, and I was pulling back up to 2k per day on my (moving) target. That's missing minimum BA (I'd rather stay married than hit those 14 BA I lost overnight) and trying to only fight the top of my fightlist where my penalties were lowest. My clan was also contributing 12-14ish% bonus vs. Koy's pretty much consistent 15%.
I'm thinking it would be hard to catch up without all the help I had.
There's only so much room at the top for good clans and while we're not BR, we are consistently pretty good.
Seeing the trouble other people are having, it seems the only way off the 7/20 wall is an RoE or a brilliant change in strategy which suddenly results in huge challenge bonuses or $USD, but that's all there is. Oh, or rentals or maybe Ranger lending you his MH but that's all there is. Or buying a character.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 10 2007 8:33 PM EDT

Or you can be patient and wait for you to get dumped into 6/20

If Ranger is at say 3 mil mpr and you are at say 1.5 mpr.... you gain about the same everyday so on and so forth, eventually it will be 4 mil to 2 mil, then 4.5 to 2.5, then 5 mil to 3 mil but wait... look at that... you just got dumped into 6/20 without doing anything but fighting and keeping up with Ranger.

I know it may take a long time to happen, but thats the only hope you have if you are not willing to use an RoE or anything else similar to that. I know how you feel about the negative bonus, Flamey.... I have almost 1.8 mil mpr and I'm still not close enough to get the 6/20, and my bonus is always -5% or more.

Eventually once my strat can hold off more people without having to rely on a ToA I will change to an RoE, but until then I'm stuck with negative bonus and an ever widening gap between me and 6/20.

Flamey October 10 2007 9:03 PM EDT

In the last six months he's gained 600k MPR, In the last six months, I've gained 500k MPR. Even if I got all my BA I still wouldn't be going at the same rate as him, My challenge bonus is an instant -5% to my rewards and my Clan bonus is 2-3% less than his, so I would be around what 8% lower or slower than him even if I hit every BA?

QBRanger October 10 2007 9:11 PM EDT

"Even if I got all my BA"

How much of your BA did you miss?

DH October 10 2007 9:12 PM EDT

i think what flamey is saying is...why should he HAVE to use a RoE to be able to keep up. catching up is a different story..now i honestly have never cared to try and compete at top levels...thats obvious by the fact my char was never a NCB, or a NUB...since ive been around for a epoch or two...and since im more social than a fighter...my char is quite small and quite broke...but i can understand flameys concern...not all feel like i do, some want to try and catch up a bit. some want to atleast maintain the gap they are at..maybe its there strat..maybe its the fact that there is a flaw in the BA system(im not saying there is one) i just saying relying on ONE item to keep up seems silly. but thats just my opinion...and its not very strong even. its just...not very important to me...but i feel for flamey...thats for sure

[RX3]Cotillion October 10 2007 9:35 PM EDT

I think that it should be hard to keep the top spot. The fact that the BA regen goes down instead of up makes it easier to stay on top. Also the fact of the x/20 instead of x/10 rates removes even more RL sacrifice.

Maybe the should only be a 10/20 rate. Can someone refresh me on the need to have different regen rates?

P.S. - I understand 'rewarding' older players, but its probably hurting more than helping by keeping things less crazy and more mellow.

Adminedyit [Superheros] October 10 2007 9:54 PM EDT

"Even if I got all my BA"
Flamey how much BA do you miss now and how much less BA are you going to miss if you do get to the 6 BA regen rate? I thought we went over this before in a thread you made about the same question.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 10 2007 10:36 PM EDT

i myself have voiced concern over the fact that even using a roe and being in the same refresh rate as the top dogs and using all of my ba, i still fall behind the top dogs. i am not sure exactly how that happens but it does happen.

now my strategy doesn't allow me to go with my roe. which is a good thing, i have to grow my tat that has fallen behind while my mpr caught up. check out my history graph now as compared to the top dogs though and you will see the disparity. the game is slanted at the moment towards keeping number one in that position. when i pointed this out everyone acted as though i wanted a free lunch. i also really have no desire to be a top dog...the opportunity though would be nice.

i have pointed out in the past that the clan system is borked when the top dogs can all be in the same clan and deprive cb of the pleasure of seeing them duke it out. i am not sure however that the clan system is to blame. i just really don't know what it is, but feel that it may be the combination of several factors. i really only get less that 2 percent different of bonus than those guys, i am not sure that would even be evident in a history graph. whatever the cause/causes are, it is evident by comparing graphs though.

sooka October 11 2007 12:25 AM EDT

"In the last six months he's gained 600k MPR, In the last six months, I've gained 500k MPR."

Isn't this due to the top doesn't get penalized for their bonuses fighting down? (which I never understood why that is)

QBRanger October 11 2007 12:31 AM EDT

AdminG Beee (119,724)
PeterGriffin (114,810)
Little Devil (109,572)
Super J (109,322)
QBRanger (103,528) -----> ME
dudemus (102,048)
Mem (101,570)
QBBast (99,946)
Domo (99,522)
Angel of Death (98,424)
Mikel (97,990)
NightStrike (97,556)
{cb1}smallpau1 (96,424)
PoisoN (93,008)
Adminbartjan (92,284)
Yukk (90,944)
Atomicboy (90,082)
Mr Vengeance (88,688)
Rubberduck[T] (86,994)
hzarb (85,852)
Synge (82,864)
novice (82,350)
Dolphin (82,336)
Flamey (81,142) -----> Flamey

Perhaps that may just be the reason your falling behind? Possibly? You have a 7/20 BA refresh to my 6/20 BA refresh and you cannot even keep up with the clan points I produce. And the above is not net clan points, but gross clan points (not factoring in those that are lost by people beating you)

What more do you want? To fight less and grow more?

QBRanger October 11 2007 12:32 AM EDT

BTW, the above are clan points the last month.

QBRanger October 11 2007 12:35 AM EDT

Clan points the last year. And Flamey has been in AO for just about 1 year exactly:

Clan MVPs: 1 year
Little Devil (1,058,951)
Angel of Death (1,018,377)
QBRanger (979,432) -----> ME
Mikel (960,863)
PoisoN (934,699)
Dolphin (868,704)
Adminbartjan (858,476)
Adminedyit (834,018)
AdminG Beee (809,210)
dudemus (803,340)
Super J (799,851)
QBBast (799,413)
hzarb (792,660)
Flamey (740,364) -------> Flamey
{cb1}smallpau1 (737,228)

So over the past 1 year, you have produced much less clan points. Perhaps some of your fights are not with 3 pointers but this is a general approximation of where you stand compared to me. How can you complain your not gaining ground when your fighting less? With a higher regeneration rate, you should have at least as many clan points as me.

sooka October 11 2007 12:45 AM EDT

*puts some nitro in Flamey's tank*

Flamey October 11 2007 5:38 AM EDT

I've never really figured it out, but lets give it a go now. It takes approximately 6.5 hours to regenerate my BA for 7/20. On a normal, fine day, I wake up at 7 am to use my BA till 7:30, I then get ready, travel to school, I get home at around 4 pm, so 8.5 hours, I miss out on 48 BA there, I should gain and use all my BA until I goto bed at 10:30 pm, where I sleep for 8.5 hours, so I miss out on another 48 there, so I roughly miss out on 96 BA a day. Not all of my fightlist would be 3 pointers, majority would be, but lately I've added non-clannies in.

So, now I understand I miss a bit too much, 288 clan points a day I miss if they're all 3 pointers, or 6 pointers rather. 2,016 a week, 8,064 a month, 96,768 a year. Also with the clan points issue, for mondays I usually fight a lot before anyone has a bonus, so that may leave a large hole in my weekly CP from only getting 2 pointers.

Due to study and the like, I may get home later to burn BA, or from going out on the weekend miss some BA from being away from a computer, if I had a phone on which I could access CB, I would only miss the BA from sleeping.

Nerevas October 11 2007 10:50 AM EDT

Clan points are a bad indication. But ranger made 600k mpr in 6 months and flamey made 500, so flamey is earning 16.6667% less xp than you. That can be attributed to a) not using all of his battles, b) not using them as efficiently (ranger uses more during xp time, less/none in money time, and more before clan bonus drops).

Flamey October 11 2007 11:27 AM EDT

Also, Ranger, I'd like to add that I don't want to catch up with less work/effort, but to get into the 6/20 refresh rate. We should not be penalised for not being in 6/20, I'm sure when Jon was planning this, this was not supposed to happen.

I also guess I'm saying that you can't catch up, for the reasons stated above, but my main concern is getting penalised for being smaller than the top. I'm asking should it be lowered to a point where your top fight would be around 0% ChB? Or something like that, because why should it be even harder to catch up if I had put in the effort, got all my BA.

With that said, it is impossible to catch ground on Ranger, unless you're in BR, in 6/20 and have a RoE whilst catching all of your BA. I do mean for those in the midrange, that aren't getting enormous challenge bonuses, of course those getting 100% challenge bonuses will be catching up but not for long.

Lumpy Koala October 11 2007 10:11 PM EDT

You would also need to factor in the 100% guaranteed win for Ranger whenever he spend his BA, compared to your "might" fail challenges. Even for the past 24 hours fight, you do not get 100% win. And through out the period, there are multiple "suicide" attempts now and then on Koy that is also guaranteed to fail against Koy. Moreover those free XP weren't penalized too because he's 6/20 :)

noneedforthese October 11 2007 11:50 PM EDT

Again, the thread is much too full for me to read, so could someone please let me know which side I'm arguing for when I say:

I think we should wait until the new generation NCBs have their full term before making any definitive changes to the 6/20 threshold. Last thing we want is a hundred near-end-NCBs with that luxury...

AdminNightStrike October 11 2007 11:51 PM EDT

First of all, always fight 3-point clan people. Second, never fight anyone against whom you will lose. Third, use an roe at least part of the time. That's what it's there for.

If you aren't willing to do those things, then yes, you'll stay in the 7/20 range. You have to fight HARD and fight SMART to get to 6/20. There is no substitution.

Mikel October 12 2007 12:24 AM EDT

My goodness, I took a (broken) NCB (my NUB, and at least 2 other NCB's) to the top 10 in MPR and I wasn't perfect everyday, but I did buy all of my ba each time.

So you say, "I can't get there."

The tools were in place already. So it's BR's (or just Ranger's) fault that you couldn't spend all of your BA (just because half of us have phones that allow us to miss very little if any ba on a daily basis).

Now I might start another NCB over again, I'm still undecided because the last one left a bad taste in my mouth and of course I tried to point it out that it wasn't working right (after the BA regen rate change). I was getting less xp after the change than before on a daily basis. So a couple of months after my NCB is over, it comes out that it really wasn't working right. I sucked it up, I didn't rant and rave forever about it, all I asked for was a free retrain.

The reasoning behind asking for that was so that I wouldn't lose what I had worked so hard for (with a broken NCB) because I want to possibly change from an Archer to a Mage, and prove it is possible or not.

So would it be fair for me to say, that I have already paid the price of retraining a top character since I lost out on quite a bit of MPR after the BA change?

I see your point, but you didn't get your character up to the 6/20 rate while it was an N*B. So you are stuck in the middle. Mine was in that range before my N*B was up...

Maybe it's time now Flamey to consider an N*B, but you will lose out on even more BA than you currently do, so in the end, will it matter what you MPR right now is, will you be able to surpass what you have now? If no, then you shouldn't do one. If yes, then maybe you should plan to start one around the time that School is out so that you can spend the first few crucial weeks to building it up so you can get it up to a slower regen rate that is less demanding on your personal schedule.

Flamey October 12 2007 12:46 AM EDT

I wouldn't be able to buy much BA at all, plus I wouldn't be able to upkeep positive net score, meaning I wont be in a good clan for that, I think I'd be better sticking where I am, the RoE is hard for my strat, I lose a lot of opponents.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 12 2007 12:49 AM EDT

Losing opponents isn't the issue, it's if you can build a fightlist out of lower level people and get some sort of a bonus (or at least stop having a negative one).

Flamey October 12 2007 12:59 AM EDT

Good point, but the top of my fightlist would be 0% challenge bonus, I can't really hit anyone over 1.6 mil Score, which is where my PR is. Does that make much of a difference? getting 0 to -5% again, but I suppose I'll be getting the same ChB with an extra 20% xp, should I use the RoE?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 12 2007 1:06 AM EDT

If the goal is get into 6/20 yes you should use the RoE.

Flamey October 12 2007 1:16 AM EDT

I'm using the RoE, now with the same Challenge bonus, probably 1% or so better, with an extra 20% to xp, I don't think I'd be able to equip to my tank, seeing as it'd lose TSA/EC/BoM, hopefully it'll be okay if I leave it on my chanters.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 12 2007 1:42 AM EDT

I'd put it on the AS chanter and just maximize the stat...helps with DM

Flamey October 12 2007 1:50 AM EDT

Noted. Thanks for all the help guys, I didn't want to come across as whining or start a flame war, or make any personal attacks to the top people. I was more discussing a way for me to get there.
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