Power Rating comparison (in General)


QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 4:11 PM EDT

First off, this is not a blast against NightStrike's fabulous Iconics 3e team -- on the contrary...the team is efficient and effective. I only noticed what I am posting about because he runs with an RoE, so it seemed glaring.

Second, I do not know how much of Iconics's net worth is actually on the team, so I will need that clarified if NS cares to.

Third, the reason this is glaring is ANOTHER testament to NS's tactical genius. He must be riding the WA perfectly, and the rest of his gear is just what he needs and no more. Definite kudos for that!

ANYWAY:

If I take off my tattoo and transfer it away, here are my specifications:
TOTAL PR: 3.256 million.
MPR: 2.785 million.
NW: 55.9 million.

So, 55.9 million NW adds 471,000 PR to my stats, an increase of 16.9% of my MPR.

For Iconics 3e:
TOTAL PR: 2.454 million.
MPR: 2.189 million.
NW: 446 million.

So, the 446 million NW in his case, since he is already running with an RoE (shouldn't add much PR), adds 265,000 PR, or a percentage increase of 12.1% to MPR.

Incidentally, just a bit ago I lost to Iconics when fighting him. Seems pretty rare, but I imagine it will get worse before it gets better.

So, is that power rating accurate? Is NW even _remotely_ reflected in the total PR of teams? My pared down NW of 55 million still adds nearly one-fifth of my MPR back into total PR. Three of NS's items are about 210 million combined, so even if he does have stuff going unused, his base NW is at _least_ 4 times mine, yet his NWPR as a percentage of MPR is 25% less than mine.

Weapon Allowance is fair? Riiiiighhht.
MgS is accurately weighted? Oh yeeeaaaaahhhhhh.

Jonathan, in a previous thread you asked if the NWPR here in CB2 is at least better than CB1. I gave a conditional "yes" to that. After further analysis, I give it an unequivocal "no". Current NWPR is an absolute joke that is no better than nothing.

TheHatchetman October 25 2007 4:15 PM EDT

he's been riding his WA perfectly since i insta'd my VB down to his :)

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 4:21 PM EDT

Yes, he and Mikel are experts at that. Apparently, 2-100 million dollar weapons are considered to need a break for tanks at his level. Wish my MM could get a break like that! *smile*

bartjan October 25 2007 4:26 PM EDT

Is *all* his NW equipped?

TheHatchetman October 25 2007 4:32 PM EDT

not nearly so...

QBRanger October 25 2007 4:33 PM EDT

How much of his weapons and his total NW are in the + side of his weapons?

Remember that you always hit him and without a massive NW on his weapon he would certainly whiff vs your large evasion.

This correlates with the problem I have with the RBF (to steal your thread). DD damage and now the RBF ALWAYS hit, while tanks have to have large NW on the + side of their weapon to hit decent evasion minions.

If you want to make it so weapons always hit, IE no plus needed, then we can redo the entire NW/PR thing.

For Boomstick over 110M is just on the + side to let me try to hit large evasion minons. And to tell you the truth, without all the xp I invest into EC, i would miss the top 3 evasions in the game in melee, and Lega's tank as well.

For Mikel, he invests over 100M on his bow just to be able to hit high evasion minons. So you want to increase his PR due to the fact he needs to be able to hit?

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 4:41 PM EDT

Bart, 210 million is in his weaponry and MgS alone. No, I don't think the whole 446 million is equipped. But 210 million is still almost 4 times my 55 million.

Ranger, this isn't about what he has to fight what I have. It is simply about properly displaying power. Why is it that so few people understand that when I bring it up? Power is an AVERAGE not a, "Well, it doesn't work against so-and-so, so that is why it is valued less!

My Evasion negates his weaponry, yes. My Evasion is also wasted experience against every mage I face. That has NOTHING to do with it. I am talking abou tthe fact that 210 million dollars adds a pittance to his MPR while my measley 55 million adds a bunch. So, if we weren't exempt, my rewards would suck while his would rock. In fact, it probably still does have some tiny effect on rewards -- I'm not sure how that works up here in exempt land.

QBRanger October 25 2007 4:47 PM EDT

So you want all his NW to be reflected in his PR.

I understand that completely.

However in non-exempt land, if every tank did not have a WA, then all the money they have to invest in the + on a weapon will add to their PR, raising their PR and therefore making growth come to a halt. Nobody could then play a tank and mages would be all the rage in the lower MPR ranges till they get to 6/10 regeneration.

The WA now gives people a chance to play tanks and actually do damage, without massively increasing their PR to the point they get no rewards.

But if each cb2 on a weapon has to count to PR to reflect a characters Power, that is ok with me. Just do not plan on seeing many tanks until 2M MPR.

The MgS on the other hand does need a nice boost to the PR it gives, I concur with that assessment. But also NS's need a nice boost since they can do wonders with a base decay and at high level DD.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 25 2007 4:47 PM EDT

I believe most of his NW is actually equipped

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 4:47 PM EDT

By my best estimate (looking at items high enough to show NW on items page), I would put his equipped NW around 275 million. So, about 5 times more than 55 million, my base NW. Just FYI.

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 4:58 PM EDT

Ranger, on average, + is as important as x. You keep talking about + as if it is wasted effort, not powerful at all. Are you joking? + is the lifeblood of a tank being a tank -- the ability to hit multiple times! Yes, it has foils, but all offense has foils.

That still has NOTHING to do with "average" power, and my desire to have it reflected accurately.

Look, if a tank needs a lot of plus because they cannot find any adequate targets due to Evasion, well, then welcome to the world. Every team has to pick targets carefully, watch their fight-list, stay frosty. Large AMF and ToE/PL/VA/MgS make me remove people from my fight list. I don't even have the option any more to pump my offense much with NW -- things are too expensive. And if I pump it with MPR (also very expensive, 16 experience per level), it ALL goes toward total power.

Don't single out scenarios and then say, "Total PR is depicted fine." Because I could do the exact same thing. I could point to teams with no DEs and tell Jonathan, "I need a DM allowance because my DM doesn't work on all these people! Wah!" That's all a wash.

novice, I think at most Iconics could have equipped is about 300 million...

TheHatchetman October 25 2007 5:00 PM EDT

+ is the lifeblood of a tank being a tank

I think that's his point... May be misconstrued though, depending on how what he said was interpreted

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 5:10 PM EDT

I meant lifeblood as in "you get what you pay for", though I see your point... Ranger is saying, "It's overhead."

Well, so is DD. I can't be a mage and then say I don't want to pay the piper for training a huge MM.

Each specialty has the things it needs to do. After a while it seems like, "Hey, this is just an escalating requirement, can I get a break here?" Well, no. Mages don't get a break. And according to the figures on this thread, it looks like tanks get very near to a 100% break for the half of their offense due to weapon NW. That, and the MgS counts as almost nothing toward total MPR because of it's tiny 0.15 weight. Meanwhile, the items I use to enhance what I shoot at the MgS add 0.5.

If it's going to be a joke, then please, do away with NWPR entirely. I'm sorry I ever pushed for it. At this point, a mage fighting a tank within his weapon allowance is actually probably at a reward DISadvantage. His DD all counts toward total PR, while the opposing weapons count for nothing. And the AGs and CoI he wears are pumping up his total PR while the item making the DD ineffectual is also barely adding to the defender's total PR.

QBRanger October 25 2007 5:10 PM EDT

Of course it is my point.

A tank HAS to have +. WIthout it they would never hit.

So while a mage always hits, a tank has to pump NW to the + of their weapon.

I see your point about reflection on power rating, but since CB uses PR to determine rewards would this not unfairly punish tanks for needing to spend CB2 on the + of their weapon?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 25 2007 5:18 PM EDT

Not true. A Tank could hit, up to two times, versus equal or lower dex, with zero pth on the wepaon.

It's not required, like training the DD is for a Mage.

It's just very very useful.

QBRanger October 25 2007 5:18 PM EDT

As I stated earlier, I do agree that the MgS needs a large boost to the PR it gives. That is an understatement. Its PR weight should be the highest of all items except for the HoC.

But for a mage to do damage all they really need is xp. For a tank they need xp and money. So if you made every dollar of CB count towards PR, tanks PR would be much larger then mages. And tanks rewards would be far less. What would everyone play? At least till they get to the 6/10 zone.

And yes, it can be thought of as "overhead", but overhead that still has to be bought and paid for. Upgrading weapons as you know is not cheap. While mages can just pump xp into their DD to increase damage, can tanks pump up their str to get the same linear bonus? No!

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 5:20 PM EDT

A tank has to have plus to hit MULTIPLE times.

A mage has to have DD.

I still don't see your point.

These weapons are fitting ENTIRELY in the WA. 100 million dollar weapons. So they don't just count for less, they count for NOTHING. And against a team without Evasion, that + does indeed have palpable power. But it isn't reflected. And the + doesn't HAVE to be there, it is there to fight Evasion. Just like my DD wouldn't HAVE to be so large, but it has to be to fight AMF. Like I said, that's a wash.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 25 2007 5:21 PM EDT

Man, do I remember this! Sut and I fought this out for gosh 4 or 5 threads WAY back when NW was first added to PR. As the camper I was, I had no desire to see it happen, and even back then Sut would say, I just want PR to accurately reflect the Power of the team.

He has been banging this same drum for a long time. *smile*

Not that he should not be, I mean heck IF you are going to add NW and the such to PR you might as well do it accurately.

Just thought I would pop in and say, he is not asking for anything new, it is something Sut has wanted for what going on 2-3 years now? I might add in one of those WAY back when threads I mentioned how hard I thought the task of accurately reflecting NW in PR would be, especially with all the changes CB2 gets, 2-3 years, it is even tougher than I thought!

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 25 2007 5:45 PM EDT

Oh and if it helps.....this is The Thing
383,208 / 333,200
Net Worth: $22,818,272
Unequipped NW: $5,936,333
Total Equipped NW: $16,881,939
Weapon NW: $12,213,955
Armor NW: $4,667,984

So 16mil NW adds 50K PR (When I unequip my Slingshot, PR stays the same, thusly I assume I am under my WA), which means in reality 4.6mil of armor NW adds 50K PR (I have no tattoo not even an RoE). I get around a 17-18% bump in PR from 4.6mil in armor, I think THAT part is working OK (OR too well, but that is another thread perhaps)

What does all this mean, well I bet it means if the WA was reduced Sut would think PR more accurately reflects Power.

QBRanger October 25 2007 5:53 PM EDT

Ok,

But without all your armor, could you still beat people? Yes

Without your weapon could you? No

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 25 2007 5:55 PM EDT

Question: Who actually runs a tank here, that has enough nw to max out their WA properly? And who of that is a Usd spender? And now tell me how are us non-usd spenders gonna get a break and not have to worry about our NW in our measly little weapons doing little, because we would have to worry about the pr hitting us like a 10 ton weight?

See, it's not every tank out there that is like this... I am a good 85 mil under my weapon allowance if I don't use rentals properly. And again most tanks don't have the nw to max out their WA. So IMHO the nw hidden by WA is about right.

And I will agree that th MGS does need a pr boost... it gives so much for such a little cost. This coming from somone using one right now. Oh and I am also in the 7/20 regen range so I get no break to my rewards for wearing what I do... even though I have to to even compete up here.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 25 2007 5:57 PM EDT

There is not doubt in your statement Ranger, I am a tank I need my weapon I do not need my armor (although my score would suffer without it, for certain) SHOULD WA be reduced, well I don't think gear should add PR at all, well at least when I could camp I thought it should not, not really sure now, I guess it does not matter that much to me, I just min max my merry way down the road.

If there was a vote tomorrow I would vote NO, simply for nostalgia sake.

Godpanda October 25 2007 5:59 PM EDT

Woot.

Score / PR / MPR: 1,941,036 / 1,797,627 / 1,297,339
Net Worth: $51,402,867
37 million of that is my tattoo.


Just over 500,000 points added to me. And I'm well over 400k below my max tat

Not sure if this helps. But it always struck me as funny that my PR to MPR change would be so much more dramatic then teams with 200-300 million NW.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 25 2007 6:02 PM EDT

If it matters I think I am pretty close to my WA, likely another 5mil in weapon NW would put me over the top, but then again I am a measley like what 330K MPR, so that is not saying a lot. I do like my score however *smile*

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 6:21 PM EDT

Wow... I must say, I am definitely flattered by this thread. This marks the first time I've gotten a whole thread dedicated to the power of my strat that everyone said from day one was going to be trash :) :) :)

When Oddbird and I originally banged this thing out last year, one of the qualifications was that to make it work, I would keep my weapon NW exactly at my weapon allowance. I have done so for the entire time, and I continue that trend even today. In fact, it's one of the side effects of rarely training XP -- I only have to keep tabs on my WA once every other month or so. As a result, I am one of the few people in the 6 BA region to have a PR:MPR ratio that is so tight. Usually, people pump their PR much higher than I have currently. I am happy that I have been able to keep it so close (a difference of less than 300k is amazing, I think).

For the record, I have a tremendous amount of NW in unequipped items. Look at the character "Moosh" where I store a bunch of tattoos to see how NW can add up so fast. As for equipped NW, it jumped up recently as I am experimenting. I recently (yesterday or today, I think) trained just under 200k MPR, and I am finding that with an Adam vice a TSA on my rear wall, I can either stalemate dudemus and lose to novice, or stalemate novice and lose to dudemus.

What I generally do is unequip everything I possibly can so that I still win. I don't use defensive setups, as they are....... dumb. The beauty of my team lies in the ability to fight so high with an RoE on 24/7.



One thing that I've learned while running this strat is that tattoo-centric teams are very very vulnerable to their tattoo. I can chomp through all but the largest TOE teams with my VB. I can deal with TOA teams with careful planning of evasion and my Exbow to deal with ST. Familiars fall victim to my MGS, my PL, and my minion ordering. The RBF will be dealt with shortly through PL and AC. The ROS is an oddball for now, but the only team that I know of that uses one I'm not targetting right now. In time...

The point is that my strat doesn't fit into any of the more standard tattoo-centric strats. Therefore, it's not easily countered by those expecting to counter based on tattoo type. It's trivial to build a strat that uses a TOE or TOA or familiar, because you know what to expect from the other minions, and you know that the person is slaved to their tattoo. How do you fight someone that holds no such allegiance? It's much harder.

The caveat is that I am leaving a HUGH pile of PR on the table. By not using a tattoo, I am preventing myself the use of a massively giant weapon -- whether endurance, PTH, random spikes of fire, etc... My hope is that when I ultimately get to a point where a tattoo is absolutely required, that I will have the freedom such that any tattoo will have the same effect, whether RBF, IF, heck, even HAL. Until then.... ROE FTW!

Note that my original strat idea utilized the RBF heavily without actually equipping it (hence Alhandra, the weird minion that does nothing...) Now that the RBF has changed, I'm in a bit of a void.

Anyway, those are just my comments on my strat, which really isn't totally on topic with your original post. Sorry about that. I just am happy to be the object of one of these posts -- like being parodied by Weird Al or guest starring on The Simpsons, it's a true testament to being good at game strategy, something usually only attributed to people like Ranger.

So yeah.. that's my way of saying "Thanks for the thread!" :)

---

PS -- How do I win on those rare occassions?

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 6:23 PM EDT

Sefton, good to see you.

GL, you said exactly what I was about to as far as the need for +.

Ranger, I see your point. A weapon requires money in addition to having stats trained. But money is already part of rewards. You are going to have money. So you are lucky to have a place to put it! It is fortuitous that Sefton has joined us... I think a lot of these discussions previously ended up with me stating that mages simply do not have any place to put money for offensive means. Get CoI and AGs up a ways, and then that's it. NW can no longer help toward offense.

But for a tank, it can help and keep on helping. Furthermore, it costs NOTHING to total PR. So, you end up with a killer team with a low total PR, and I end up with a mage team displaying everything in PR and 5 million in the bank. So what? That money is worthless for offense, and always will be. Jonathan has made abundantly clear that mages will never have DD-enhancing weapons like staves.

Tanks get to utilize their cash for pure power. Not only that, the power it affords them doesn't even show in total PR, thereby making their rewards larger. Larger rewards, more cash, the circle continues.

Sefton, right now I would rather have NWPR totally removed. See my example above -- an AG/CoI mage team vs. an MgS-equipped tank team within its WA actually has a PR _disadvantage_ under the current NWPR scheme.

I sound just like someone asking for an IT enhancement: "It's just what I asked for, but not what I want!" *smile*

QBJohnnywas October 25 2007 6:26 PM EDT

My last team 'Johnnywas' could fit two large BoNEs and a SoD under the WA. All that power and not one bit of it reflected in my PR. Personally I don't think that's right and like Sut it's something I've believed is wrong for some time.

Put a huge Morg under the WA's hood and you've hidden the invisible MPR of a VA as well. I think these things should be measured.

It is IMO the real reason tanks are seemingly so much more powerful. A tank and mage of the same size face off. In reality the tank is so much more bigger in power. But you can't see it.

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 6:28 PM EDT

NS, take all the kudos you want, you deserve them. I have known that ever since I took a closer look after one of your "what should I train now" threads. You are definitely on the list of folks far-and-away above my tactical skills in th egame. *smile*

How do you win? I could not back up to either fight log and see (get the POSTDATA messagebox and can't get back to it, can't figure why that happens sometimes but not others). So, I don't know. I assume you last long enough, my familiar dies on AMF, and you get lucky hits on my lead mage -- he isn't that great in melee.

Can you let us know your equipped NW?

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 6:32 PM EDT

It'd be easier to count up my unequipped NW. It's about 100m on the unequipped weapons side.

When were the two wins? I was testing to see what I'd need to hit Draco with some +28 ammo (which adds +84 to my PTH). If I was wearing that, then that explains it. And it's going to be a VERY long time before I have the WA to put another +84 on my weapon.

Incidentally, I still missed ALL THE TIME with the +28 ammo.......

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 6:48 PM EDT

I can't remember the times, you can check my 1000 fight log for losses and see, search for "iconics". That might explain it... Some ranged hitting would definitely do it.

So I was probably pretty close to saying your equipped NW is around 275-300 million. 5+ times my 55 million non-tattoo NW...

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 6:50 PM EDT

AHH!! I just fought you and won!!!!!

Happy day!!!

I had the fight log turned off though... =)

And as a note, everyone was dead but Ember, who had 20 HP left.

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 6:54 PM EDT

3/3 :)

I think I win because of my recently added PL (Thanks, Ranger!)

Spawn October 25 2007 6:55 PM EDT

Not the same topic, but: Grats NS!!

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 6:55 PM EDT

I think I need to add something from the fight log....

My weapon NW is doing virtually nothing to help me win. Regdar never hits with his massive VB. Ember hits twice in ranged with his Exbow for about 250k each...

Without Exbow I'd still have a good chance at winning. So unfortunately, this whole thread is now moot now that I know why I'm winning. Sorry, dude.

Nerevas October 25 2007 7:02 PM EDT

Remember that the PR weighting of armor is multiplied by the amount of xp on the minion wearing it. Nightstrike's high NW armor is spread across 4 minions, the highest NW armor set on probably his smallest minion. You on the other hand, most of your NW is on your mage which represents the largest percentage of your team's XP. That is part of the reason your PR is so much more inflated.

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 7:03 PM EDT

Sut, I think you're now on my fightlist........

This thread has been more helpful than you could possibly imagine! With just a little more HP on my rear wall (trained about 1.4m XP into HP), I know win almost all the time.

I win because of:
AMF
Decay
Minion order

That's about it. Oh, and PL.

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 7:41 PM EDT

And now I'm in the top ten again.... This has been a most enlightening thread. In all honesty, if you didn't post anything, sut, I never would have known. I didn't even consider you a viable target at all. So, thanks again.

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 7:53 PM EDT

Awesome.

Now a team with 2.4 million PR can beat me (3.8 million PR) because of MgS and PL. A team with decent AMF, but not a lot -- the AMF doesn't beat me. Nothing else special to foil me other than the MgS.

I'd like to say you've helped me prove a point as well, NS, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

I'm so far beyond caring I've nothing to say. Probably a welcome relief for all.

lostling October 25 2007 8:01 PM EDT

i believe the tank users are saying WA is essential for tanks and mages are saying it is not? ... me thinks jon should just see how much under WA (most) people are getting and just shift the WA down some more... however if tank teams are so powerful with WA y are people still using magic down there?... my guess is that magic is nearly as powerful for a lesser cost... though i do admit that MGS 's PR weight should be increased....

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 8:11 PM EDT

Lostling, I am saying I understand that tanks need to train AND spend money -- but the money is there anyway, it is a reward just like experience is.

That argument alone is what increased the amount of BA to buy, as an ostensible help to those with extra cash. (I'm going way back, there).

Now that people can use all of their BA in a day (or at least a substantial amount more), more rewards (exp and ???) is available. As far as I know, tanks can buy all BA and still have money left over for weapons (I know I still have money left over, anyway).

After I max out my AGs and CoI, cash helps me only very, very marginally. A tank, on the other hand, can keep using that cash to increase the weapon portion of offense...

...without increasing total PR a whit.

(thanks for getting this back on topic, lost, I got badly side-tracked.)

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 8:14 PM EDT

The thread didn't get very side-tracked. The thread instead proved that weapon allowance has nothing to do with me winning, which is the focal point of the thread -- that I win because of my hidden PR in my WA. But that's not why I win........

Nerevas October 25 2007 8:16 PM EDT

1) the large part of your dispel is wasted on Nightstrike. 3.9mil levels worth of dispel vs 1.3mil AS (that's with both of you using corns, only his corn is bigger). That narrows the mpr gap -alot-.

2) his decay, which costs 6k xp, accounts for 700k damage to your team.

3) his minion order is well suited against you. Yours on the other hand isn't vs him. Instead of having your familiar second in line for death vs tanks, you could move that minion to slot1 and put an AoI up. Or in the back, or something.

4) Mage wall specifically designed to counter magic missile, backed by another TSA-regening PL minion. You'd beat him using a different DD. 'Nuff said.

QBRanger October 25 2007 8:18 PM EDT

I for one make only 50-100k a day from fighting, after healing costs and ammo costs.

Over the month that comes out to at most 3M. 36M over the year. 36M will get me maybe +120 on my MH which is quite easily countered by a medium level evasion. And let us not forget the defensive dex bonus from evasion which counters dexterity on a tank.

All the while the AoF gives a +3% bonus per + on it, while tanks only have EC/EB/EG's to help their dex.

Please spare me the "money is there anyway". Evasion is just too powerful to be countered without USD.

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 8:22 PM EDT

We could probably calculate Sut's effective PR against me... like, if his DM was reduced by however much, what his new PR would be.

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 8:23 PM EDT

Thanks for deciding what my point was, NS. It wasn't, but by all means, keep talking.

My point was based on numbers, not results. Battle outcomes have absolutely nothing to do with it.

And FYI, the MgS still has _everything_ to do with it (in the vent that you ARE concerned with battle outcomes). It reduces the MMs against your back minion so that PL can beat the rest. And the MgS was _definitely_ part of my OP.

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 8:28 PM EDT

Seems I have just the calculator for this!

MPR: 2,786,175
XP: 163,099,925

DM: level 3881009
XP: 56,924,323

DM: level 1300000
XP: 17,597,216

Diff: 39327107

New total XP: 123772818
New MPR: 2,234,361


Wow.... just.... wow.....

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 8:33 PM EDT

"Thanks for deciding what my point was, NS. It wasn't, but by all means, keep talking."

No need to be a jerk about it. It just appears from your original post and several followup posts that the primary point of the thread is that weapon allowance is hiding PR that is causing me to win. We've deduced that that isn't the case.

The apparently secondary point regarding the PR weighting of the MGS is also not proven in fight logs. It's not the MgS at all that's helping me win, as I haven't bolstered that thing in ages. It's the other massive AC, the two sets of PL, the regenerating TSA, the minion order, and the 1m hit points that I just trained. By my calculations, I could drop the MgS from +46 to +26 and still win.

lostling October 25 2007 8:38 PM EDT

:) rangeri dont think we are talking about the people with no challenge bonus lol we are talking about the tanks on the rise who get better challenge bonus then mages due to their hidden power :) and thus earn more money and rise faster and further

lostling October 25 2007 8:40 PM EDT

NS consider this MGS is a % thing which seriously like most armor do not need boosting after a certain level... maybe if you took it off he would be more happy =x

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 8:42 PM EDT

Your equations do not take into account the step-wise nature of things, NS. *smile* The CB world isn't a continuous polynomial any more (and hasn't been for a long, long time).

Jonathan himself has already dismissed my comments about thresholds, randomizations, etc. as ineffectual. But consider this: In the case of PL, whatever drops below your PL level turns PL from a damage reducer into an effective minion rescuer (at last for one more round).

With fire, I can hit your 20-HP minions plenty hard to kill. If randomization puts the fireballs above your PL? They would both die. If the randomization put it low enough? They would both live. We all know this game is about kill slots. That's not a continuous equation. It's step-wise. Calculate X all you want. It still doesn't accurately depict the reality of the game dynamics.

So, I appreciate this thread too. If Jonathan needs an example of a clear-cut case where higher randomization ranges short the mage, I have one. *smile*

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 8:45 PM EDT

"Your equations do not take into account the step-wise nature of things, NS."

All I was doing was showing that the PR difference between us was not as great as it appears, given that 500k of your PR is doing nothing. You had made a post comparing our PR and attributing my win to PL and to my MgS. However, our PR levels are not as far apart as you posted, and it's not due to PL and the MgS.

And yes, now that you've switched to a FF instead of SF, things are different in terms of why I win/lose. My above paragraph and all posts prior to this were at a time before your inking.

Nerevas October 25 2007 8:48 PM EDT

I recalculated for fun. Taking correct step-wise whatever you'd like to call it into consideration. The wasted DM knocks you down to ~2,395,524 MPR.

AdminNightStrike October 25 2007 8:50 PM EDT

Nerevas, are you sure? I came up with 2.30m MPR using the correction you gave me (that is, that 1.3m was the effect, so 1.3 / 0.8 is 1.625, which increases the total XP by 5m, which is 2.30m MPR)

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 8:50 PM EDT

My re-inking has nothing to do with this post either. *smile* I am entirely consistent.

I was not comparing you vs. me. That's what you keep missing.

I was just comparing character A and character B. I would have made the same comparison even if we weren't on each other's fight list! It has nothing to do with who wins.

I said it several times already -- it's about the AVERAGE power, not a specific "you vs me". I can show you examples of where my PR is very effective, and where it sucks. That has nothing to do with comparing two characters and wondering, "Where the heck is the power?"

If your 200 million in weapons weren't effective, you wouldn't be wearing them, with or without WA. So what about that? What about the teams against which your weapons work well? Shouldn't I be making noise about why they aren't in your total PR?

Oh wait, I am. *smile* That's the point.

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 8:52 PM EDT

Great, now Nerevas is missing the point too...

Grr, you guys are like a cancer. If you can't stay on topic, get off the thread. This is not about specific scenarios. It is about wondering where the _average_ power displays.

QBRanger October 25 2007 8:56 PM EDT

I would say they are like Lymphoma, treatable with the right chemotherapy.

So, Sut, give them the right chemo and cure CB of the cancer :)

TheHatchetman October 25 2007 8:58 PM EDT

Cancer can't stay on topic? Odd... I thought once cancer was there, it was the ONLY topic... And the 9th word in this entire thread was "NightStrike's"

TheHatchetman October 25 2007 8:58 PM EDT

Leave it to the radiologist to make a cancer joke faster than me... =/

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 25 2007 9:08 PM EDT

I believe in the end, Sut's point is simple. In a prefectly accurate PR world, no one with smaller PR would beat someone with a larger PR. That might sound severe, but that is perfection for you. We all know that is not possible. So in general if you have a lower PR by say a percentage margin of lets say a generous 33%, you should not win against the higher PR or your "Power" is not being accurately reflected. Again I simplfy greatly, but in the end, isn't that what accurate power representation is? The ability to beat another person reflected numerically? Maybe I do not understand, but that is my interpretation.

TheHatchetman October 25 2007 9:11 PM EDT

"I believe in the end, Sut's point is simple. In a prefectly accurate PR world, no one with smaller PR would beat someone with a larger PR."

I don't believe thats his point... I think it's more along the lines of "PR isn't exactly being reflected accurately here..."

Which is very true!

QBRanger October 25 2007 9:17 PM EDT

Seft,

However you have to consider something called "effective PR".

I classify that is the PR that is effectively being used in fighting a certain opponent.

Just becuase Character A with 1M PR can beat Character B with 2M PR does not mean much if Character B has most of his XP in EC while character A is all DD.

IE, Hubbell's massive DM does nothing at all to Koy. So he is "wasting" about 500k MPR/PR vs me. His DM does the same to quite a lot of other characters to a lesser extent that was stated earlier in the thread.

About weapons, one has to take into account the + needed to hit vs the automatic hit on DD spells. Yes, while physical can hit numerous times, physical can also completely miss. So increase PR for the + on a weapon and tanks rewards plummet. Is that fair?

Khardin October 25 2007 9:22 PM EDT

What if it broken down even more?

How much do your AGs add to your PR and what NW are they?

How many levels could you add to your DD spell for that PR?

If you gain more levels wearing them then by leveling your spell, then it could be looked at a couple ways. Either you have them at the proper level for your DD level, or they aren't being accurately reflected in your PR.

If you would gain more levels leveling your spell than wearing them, then it could be considered a cost of augmenting your character 'unnaturally' ...

A type of 'DD allowance'.

I stopped wearing my ToE for now because my fight list stayed the same without it and my rewards were suffering. I'm playing a SFBM while I absorb the changes that took place during my inactivity and gain gear. I noticed that the HPs I could gain by training were way above the benefits of the ToE, so changing it for a CoI and a MCM seemed right.

Just seems there's more going on.. I don't think a tattoo is a basic right of any strategy. It effects PR as if it is a fifth minion it seems and XP dilution can be a big factor on a four minion team.

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 9:23 PM EDT

Thank you Ranger, and a good point Sefton, (but read what Ranger said *smile*)

I want PR to be a better "average" PR. That means it doesn't apply to individual scenarios. It applies to the average... Because that is what rewards are based upon!

Nerevas October 25 2007 9:25 PM EDT

Khardin: that's actually how PR weighting works right now. The item's PR weight is affected by how much xp is trained on that given minion. So essentially if the mage wearing the AGs is larger, the PR increase is bigger (irrespective of total mpr and the size of the other minions).

Khardin October 25 2007 9:30 PM EDT

Ahh, thanks.

I thought it was NW linked more than it was XP linked...
thanks for clearing that up.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 25 2007 9:32 PM EDT

Good point, I had not considered effective PR in my perfect PR world scenario.

I try to reduce the number of things I train that only effect a specific type of target well. DM or AMF for that matter. Once you pick a side, you are CERTAIN to waste some exp against some targets.

Regardless, its like any line in the sand, driving at 16, drinking at 21, your goal is to be right MOST of the time, and hopefully if you err, you err to the side of caution.

What line is that you ask? Well the line that says, this+this+etc=PR. You have to draw it somewhere, and once you do hope most of the times, it is right.

So Sut, that would be my "challenge" back if there is such a thing, multiple examples. I would suggest your aurgument would hold a lot more weight if you could show the same "type" of thing over and over. Show that the line is missing its goal of "most".

Granted, I am no one, and its not really a challenge per se, as a suggestion maybe? Whatever, do not take it as a gauntlet or anything. *smile*

QBsutekh137 October 25 2007 11:41 PM EDT

I just had this one example, and this day of posting has ended up being utterly awful. I don't really care what anyone does or doesn't take from it... I'm done with the posting...

Relic October 26 2007 2:08 AM EDT

Let me try and state my PR case. I get slaughtered by ToA Archers due to WA, there is no other reason. Their real PR is being hidden in their WA.

Now consider this, my estimated WA is:
Estimated Weapon Allowance: 35,397,412

Now, if I inked my RoBF to a ToA and did nothing else but slap on a 35 mil NW bow, I could add heaps of players to my fightlist that rake me over the coals currently. Is that right? And here is the key thing to note. My PR will not change at all.
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