Thoughts on evasion, XP and the RBF (in General)


QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 4:31 AM EDT

Ok, lots of talk this week about the RBF. This isn't quite another post about it.

The arguments against it seem to revolve around a few different things.

1. It blocks too much DD attack.
2. It allows smaller characters to beat up on bigger characters.
3. It allows too much XP to be put into evasion, thus reducing all those big weapons up top.
4. It doesn't fit into the scheme of things. It's damage is 'wrong'.
5. It lets you fight really high on very low PR and for pretty much zero cost.


(If you've bothered to read the arguments you'll recognise a few of those points as originating with Ranger. This is not an attack on Ranger.)

Ok, onto the meat of my thoughts. It's early, so I may ramble;)

Lets get the specifically RBF things out of the way first. The RBF is capable of blocking huge amounts of opposing DD damage (and ex shot hit as well - although I haven't heard anybody complaining about that.) The ToE is also capable of blocking huge amounts of opposing DD. And physical damage. So is AC. So this is nothing new to CB and is less than existing methods. In fact the ToE has dominated CB since CB2 began, what with single FB mages back in the old days, to the BR clan's continuing dominance of the top ten. The way to deal with that is to raise your damage levels I guess. Like all damage reduction. Basically though, if the RBF is overpowered in that respect so is all damage reduction.

It's damage is 'wrong'. It's damage is different. Perhaps it requires new methods of damage limitation and response. But that doesn't make it 'wrong'. It's nice to see something different around these here parts. Things don't feel so stagnant as they have done in recent times.

It allows you to focus your XP. This seems to really annoy people. The ToA does exactly the same thing. It's a way of making your characters really powerful. I've always focused my XP regardless of the tattoo I was using and I've always been able to fight really high because of it. You don't have to use everything that is available in CB. In fact you can do much better if you limit yourself to certain stats. And it's a choice (yes a choice) that is available to all.
To use Ranger as an example - he has focused a great deal of his team in EC. That pretty much reduces every tank within CB to nothing. It also digs in deep into a lot of the evasions out there. Nobody complains about that, so why the complaints about the ability to do the same with evasion?

Evasion itself might be a problem. Too high and all those massive weapons become useless. But all those massive weapons mean that you need evasion to survive. It's the area where CB eats itself. And is a whole other area of discussion on it's own. It shouldn't be a reason why the RBF is 'overpowered'.

The abillity to fight higher than you 'should' and for little or no cost. Hmmm. Most of my strats have revolved around this practice. I've quite often maintained for quite a long way through the game a score of four to five times my MPR, and at least three times my PR. It's not difficult, but it does require specialization. But what most people don't seem to realise is how easy it is to do with most strats.

Two things make it seem like something that shouldn't happen. Clan fighting. Most people are so occupied with getting a decent bonus that they don't often experiment with their fightlist. I've been fighting around the top fifty and known for a fact that characters much much lower can beat me. But they don't step out of their little comfort zone. A lot of characters could be fighting a lot higher than they are. You do put yourself at risk of being farmed relentlessly though, which is why I'm not often in clans once I hit higher levels.

The other thing that gives everybody the impression that it 'shouldn't' happen is the myth of MPR. MPR doesn't necessarily mean that you are bigger than people with smaller MPR. It isn't a fixed number from fight to fight. Rather it changes depending on who you fight. If you have a large DM and you face somebody with no EDs your DM ceases to exist in actuality. You become much smaller. So focused XP spreads can actually bridge the gap between MPRs, so that somebody smaller can actually take on a much larger char and win. It's not that that char is doing anything 'wrong', it's just that we don't see what is actually happening in the fight.

Evasion is probably the best example of an MPR reducer, because not only does it negate PTH; but if you are not hitting an evasion minion then all your trained ST and DX is negated also. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it wrong? I don't think so.

But the main question in my mind is should we be able to focus XP into huge stats without spreading? Perhaps if it is a problem then we should be growing minions the way we grow tatts? Pick a minion type and spend your xp on stats such as Combat Skill, or Speed. Or Magic. It would stop the choices we have currently. But those choices do lead to certain impasse situations such as evasion vs USD weapons.

I don't think there are easy answers to this. But I would prefer choice to rigid paths.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. I'm going to get some breakfast.

Happy Friday. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 26 2007 6:56 AM EDT

<3

I think the main gripe with the RoBF (the only thing you've missed in your assessment) is that it's both deefnsive and offensive. It does it all. And people don't like that.

Then again, the ToA is defensive to Physical attacks, and the JKF is both defensive and offensive.

Second is the fact there's nothing that can reduce its damage output, and that GA doesn't Trigger. Like PL I'd like Jons comment on GA.

As for not having somethign specific to reduce its damage output, unlike the ToA/JKF or any other damage dealer, there's nothing in game currently that can boost this damage.

The moment there's a specific reductor, we'll need something able to boost it as well.

Talion October 26 2007 7:33 AM EDT

"Second is the fact there's nothing that can reduce its damage output"

AC, ToE, Protection are 3 ways to reduce its damage.

I think you meant: Nothing can cancel the damage output. Which is the thing that really annoys people.

I proposed a solution around this problem a while ago which no one seemed to notice but which I think makes a lot of sense...

Give the RoBF a damage output based on offensive DX versus defensive DX which could not be affected by the PTH effect of Evasion (in other words, only the Evasion level is considered) or DB effects.

It would be plain old offensive DX versus defensive DX.

With a 100% CTH (Offensive DX / Defensive DX * 50% = 1), the damage output of the RoBF is maximum. With a 0% CTH (Offensive DX / Defensive DX * 50% = 0), damage output would be 0.

That would be the best solution imop.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 7:38 AM EDT

one of the reasons i have stayed single minion was because i believed that at some point the concentrated xp would win out over dilution. in some senses and cases it had before the robf, but not consistently. i was farmed by much lower mpr, usd spenders, as were many others.

as stated before, now i am not farmed at least and my xp concentration is a bit more extreme, but only about one spell less than before. with mm against one of the top five teams, my damage was often reduced by 90 to 95 percent, mitigation to the extreme. now, the top robf tat in the game gets its damage reduced by about 85 percent by another top five team, with no adaptation at all in strat.

while there is no way to reduce the output, the resulting damage can be reduced quite effectively, almost the same as mm's total reduction i was seeing. if jon brought in a way to reduce the output, then most likely the damage would have to be increased to compensate, thus resulting in about the same numbers as we have now for most. the difference might be that the very top could mitigate it to almost nothing then with a little adaptation.

i think it is also important to point out that in my mind this new option makes standard ac more important once again. in cb2 land we have gotten away from ac in favor of gear with "effects" on them. stat boosters and skill granters are the norm now and most people choose these gears over cheaply upgradeable ac. that is a choice however and a choice that now may have consequence.

if at some point jon does deem it necessary to change the robf, i think that the damage model should stay the same. i would like to see the secondary and tertiary effects reduced or taken out, the evasion boost and the dd reduction. the reason for this is that the robf does allow xp concentration in those skills inherently anyways. this change would lock the robf into strategies similar to what we have now and may preclude new strategies not even dreamed up yet, which i would hate to see. i will reiterate though that i think it is too early to look at changing any new strategy, we need to give people time to adapt and then see if it is a problem.

as an over powered item the robf is actually quite underwhelming, at least at my level. i did add some lower mpr people to my fight list when i swapped to it. only one, if even that, higher mpr character was added though, i really can't remember if i added him before the change or after. i have shutdown most of the people in game from farming me. this was done not just with the robf change though. as part of the whole strategy change i took my hp up to the third highest in game, my evasion to the highest and now my amf is highest in game. i am not so sure that if i took my robf off, how many would still be stalemating me, but i feel that many still would.

forgive the long post but i have stated many of these ideas in previous threads, just not all in one place and wanted to accomplish that goal. about all that i haven't discussed is the usd aspect of the game. i can only speak for myself when i stated that my excitement about the game has been rejuvenated by the fact that with only what i have made in the game and not taking anything out money wise, i am able to compete as well as i can now. i don't win mind you, but i don't necessary lose as frequently to the usd spenders as before.



DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 8:07 AM EDT

Dudemus:
Keep in mind not all the farmers under your mpr were usd spenders, I was at 1.6 mil. I for one am not a usd spender and I was beating you no problem before you changed. Now that you have changed I can't beat you at all... even using one of the top 3 mh's in conjunction with a 3.2 mil level toa. Now for an evasion to stop all that.... that is a little insane. Its not the Robf thats stopping me its the experience dilution, or lack there of in your strat.

There isn't enough things to stop someone from just training those few stats that they need especially since the Robf does not die. I repeat, Does not Die! In fact, like Nerevas has said before... if you really wanted to you could go all amf and evasion and more than likely not worry about a thing... That would be a 4 mil amf and a 4 mil evasion if not more... Who or what could ever hurt you if you do that??? That would turn any melee or ranged weapon no matter how powerful into a brick... and that would more than likely with a huge corn turn any DD spell into a fizzle... And that right there leaves you with a char that no one can beat, but most people stalemate with.

Please tell me what would stop anyone, who is in their right mind, from yelling "Overpowered" at the top of their lungs? That is what I think the biggest issue is. The experience that you don't have to dilute to run an robf strat.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 8:24 AM EDT

draco your net worth on vlad tepes is ten times mine with about half a million less mpr. how in the heck did you get that big a variance from me if you haven't spent usd on your character exactly? i have never taken money out or put money into the game. i have bought some supporter items and item namings with cash though.

Flamey October 26 2007 8:25 AM EDT

I''d like to add that it totally kills the IF/JKF from the game.

Flamey October 26 2007 8:27 AM EDT

Also, I hate this crap about Evasion is too powerful. Draco, the Evasion is huge, why shouldn't it stop your ToA and MH? Really? It's the purpose of Evasion, if it can't even stop things from hitting it isn't fair. It's like saying AC shouldn't reduce a lot of damage if you've spent a lot, or it's saying that out of a 4 mil AMF and a 2 mil MM, the MM should still win.

No, just plain no, he used all that exp to do what the skill does, you can't be expected to just beat it.

Talion October 26 2007 8:36 AM EDT

"if jon brought in a way to reduce the output, then most likely the damage would have to be increased to compensate"

I don't agree. I think it would simply mean that XP would have to be distributed with a bit more finesse in order to maximize the RoBF usefulness.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 8:43 AM EDT

well if he wanted to keep it as a strategy where the robf is the only damage dealer on the team, then it would have to be increased or as gl stated some way would need to be implemented to boost it.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 8:43 AM EDT

Sorry to burst your bubble Dude, but only about 200 mil of it is my own... the rest I picked up using rentals wisely.

And might I add yet again the entire point is missed. Due to the Robf user not being hurt by GA/AMF is the only reason that he can train his stats the way he does. No other item allows someone to train their stats in that way so as to split into three stats instead of the normal four it would take. Without the ability for the Robf to deal damage like that, Dude, you would have to train a damage spell as well and your evasion would be hitable.

If you were to go single tank with a ToA you could train archery, hp and one skill as well... but then you would still take damage by GA. Now if you were to use ToE and go mage and train DD, evasion, and DM, you would take damage by Amf.

There is a counter to everything out there... and the only counter for Robf is AC/ToE/MgS/Prot. Now tell me those are counters if they can't actually kill you. You could theoretically go all into those two stats like I had said and be unbeatable. But then that would prove how overpowered it was now wouldn't it.

Talion October 26 2007 8:44 AM EDT

"Also, I hate this crap about Evasion is too powerful. Draco, the Evasion is huge, why shouldn't it stop your ToA and MH? Really?"

I think that a stat is too powerful if you can invest too much XP into it without any consequence. That is the case with RoBF users. A single RoBF user can invest 80% to 90% of all XP in Evasion and AMF and be able to not only defend against almost everyone, but actually win challeenges against much more powerful characters.

That is 2 stats. Think about it... Equip a RoBF, train two stats and a drop of HP, and you are all set. No need to spend any money or equip anything else.

Flamey October 26 2007 8:46 AM EDT

You still need a fair bit of HP any decent DD spell would kill you if had minimal HP. Regardless of your 4 trillion AMF.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 8:48 AM EDT

The ability to hugely focus XP seems to be the problem here. And yet plenty of multiple minion teams focus on singular stats. I mentioned Ranger and his EC. Up until now however that was exclusive to multi minion teams. Now we have something that works in a similar way for a single minion team.

The only way around that is to stop allowing choice in how people spend their xp. Is that something that people want?

Talion October 26 2007 8:48 AM EDT

"well if he wanted to keep it as a strategy where the robf is the only damage dealer on the team, then it would have to be increased"

I think that is the source of the problem. An item that does not suffer any backlash, cannot miss, provides protection against magical attacks, and provides defensive PTH against weapons can currently be used as the main damage dealer without having to be protected or junctioned and without having to have any stats boosted by any type of equipment.

Yikes!

QBRanger October 26 2007 8:49 AM EDT

Draco restates most of the valid points.

However, I have no problem with people going single minion to concentrate their xp.

The problem is 2 fold:

First: evasion is quite powerful. The fact it gives both a huge minus to hit AND defensive dexterity makes it almost impossible for non-USD weapons to hit it.

Second: The type of damage the RBF does. Yes, it is very nice to see a new type of damage. However this damage attached to a minion that can almost never be hit and does not get effected/reflected by AMF while always hitting is too much.

It seems the only way to counter a RBF evasion minion is another RBF evasion minion, massive MPR advantage or USD weapons.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 8:50 AM EDT

And Talion grasps the concept for the win!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 8:54 AM EDT

no apology is necessary when clarification is asked for. your net worth is still about four times mine then though which i guess almost half of your net worth is probably in the higher level tat than mine or just under half? did you have a nub also?

you have about half a million less mpr than me though and four times as much net worth. you used to farm me and now you can't. your point is that it is wrong now that you can't do so any longer, i guess i would have to say my point is that it was wrong then and right now. you also have multiple minions and dilution of xp through that. as a single minion i have very concentrated xp.

i guess what i don't get is that no where has it ever been stated that you have to train at least four stats to be viable and anything less than that is wrong in some manner.

Talion October 26 2007 8:55 AM EDT

"The only way around that is to stop allowing choice in how people spend their xp. Is that something that people want?"

I think the problem is as you stated: With an RoBF, you do not need to be creative at all or spend any money. You train 3 stats and bingo. You are all set to let your RBF do its work.

"You still need a fair bit of HP any decent DD spell would kill you if had minimal HP. Regardless of your 4 trillion AMF."

If you invest 20% of your XP into HP, you still end up with close to close to 2M HP when you reach 2M MPR if all you have to train besides that is Evasion and AMF. With 2M HP and a humongous AMF (40%+ XP) at 2M MPR, I think that you are going to win against 99% of existing mage teams... if not 100%. Remember that you do not suffer any AMF or GA backlash.

Flamey October 26 2007 8:55 AM EDT

It's not a new type of damage, it's just physical damage that can't be reflected by GA.

Talion October 26 2007 9:02 AM EDT

"It's not a new type of damage, it's just physical damage that can't be reflected by GA."

Personally, I consider physical-like damage that cannot be dodged and cannot be reflected by GA as a new type damage.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 9:04 AM EDT

Yeah, I'm with Talion on that particular point. I think of it as a new type of damage also. Shiny shiny new!

QBRanger October 26 2007 9:12 AM EDT

"It's not a new type of damage, it's just physical damage that can't be reflected by GA."

Then is that not a NEW type of damage.

And why does EC not lower it? EC effects the Hal or JKF which both deal physical damage.

The problem with the RBF is that it is unaffected by AMF/EC and not reflected by GA while always hitting.

I personally do not have a huge problem with the massive evasion (but I have a huge weapon/EC), but being able to stick such a damage dealing method on an unhittable minion is too powerful.

I do not believe anyone in the game would have a problem if Dudemus or any RBF user puts a FF/SF/IF/Hal/JKF on his single max evasion minion. All those have a counter. But the RBF really does not. Unless you can hit the evasion minion, all you can hope for is a stalemate. Never a win.

Now add the DD blockage of the RBF and even mages cannot do damage to such a minion after their AMF lowers the initial damage amount.
And let us not forget the bonus the RBF gives to these super-evasion minions. Making them even harder to hit.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 9:15 AM EDT

dudemus, 8:54 AM EDT
"no apology is necessary when clarification is asked for. your net worth is still about four times mine then though which i guess almost half of your net worth is probably in the higher level tat than mine or just under half? did you have a nub also?"

No I didn't have a nub that I kept up on, I squandered that away... This char I bought from Edyit as is and just made some slight adjustments... I am a shrewd salesperson and have done millions in trades and have made millions off of that and have invested wisely and also forged about 100 mil of it for myself.

"you have about half a million less mpr than me though and four times as much net worth. you used to farm me and now you can't. your point is that it is wrong now that you can't do so any longer, i guess i would have to say my point is that it was wrong then and right now. you also have multiple minions and dilution of xp through that. as a single minion i have very concentrated xp."

Yet again you miss the point... is it fair for anyone out there to train in as few stats as possible and not have to deal with any damage from any form due to the biggest Evasion/Amf combo out there? The robf does not receive any form of damage back... be it amf or ga. That is the kicker. If you didn't have the robf to deal damage, you would have to change your strat completely again, just to adjust to it. Now if the robf received damage due to either amf or ga you would have more hp and wouldn't have such a high evasion that non usd tanks can't ever hope to hit you.

"i guess what i don't get is that no where has it ever been stated that you have to train at least four stats to be viable and anything less than that is wrong in some manner."

If not for the robf, you would not have the stats trained as you do. Your Evasion would be about 2/3 of what it is and I could actually hit you then. That is what irks me... your evasion and amf are so big that only the top 5 could ever hope to beat you in any way, shape, or form. I am not trying to personally attack you but you are the epitome of the robf user. Very little xp dilution without any form of damage returned upon you. When Ga or amf hurts you, then you can eat your own words, when you have to change your strat again.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 9:24 AM EDT

I'd happily take hits from GA, or AMF. Especially if I never have to see the phrase 'overpowered' again. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 9:29 AM EDT

i never mind eating my own words, they are yummy for my tummy! as i have stated many times before and not just on this topic: none of us have any great insight into jon's vision for the game. i do trust that vision or i wouldn't have stuck around for almost five years now. whatever will be will be.

Flamey October 26 2007 9:33 AM EDT

"If you didn't have the robf to deal damage, you would have to change your strat completely again, just to adjust to it."

It'd be quite pointless then wouldn't it? to not have the RoBF deal damage if his strategy is based around it.

Nerevas October 26 2007 9:33 AM EDT

Change RoBF's DD reduction to work like ToE by %. Also make the RoBF damage subject to AMF (but perhaps immune to the reflected damage?)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 9:39 AM EDT

i have just come to a realization, as a non-usd spender and also as a single-minion character i never in my wildest dreams envisioned myself as an ongoing player in any over-powered debate. since the inception of cb2 and the major influx of cash into the game i would have even laughed at the idea of this ever happening.

that in itself is probably proof enough...i am uber, nerf me now please! :)

Flamey October 26 2007 9:40 AM EDT

Make the damage affectable! It's a word now.

Relic October 26 2007 9:42 AM EDT

All I seem to be hearing is whine, whine, whine about the RoBF. There are plenty of ways to beat it, but should all players with all various strats be able to counter it? Obviously not. Try explaining to me how Ranger and Mikel strat's are nigh impossible to beat yet no one is complaining about their overpoweredness. Just chill folks, beat who you can, and remove who you can't simple as that.

Talion October 26 2007 9:50 AM EDT

"Try explaining to me how Ranger and Mikel strat's are nigh impossible to beat yet no one is complaining about their overpoweredness."

Mikel is a single minion ToA archer... a plague of complaints have abounded. Where have you been for the past 4 years?

Ranger has the highest MPR character with the highest NW in the game... what is there to complain about?

Flamey October 26 2007 9:50 AM EDT

Johnny wins.

Flamey October 26 2007 9:52 AM EDT

Talion, rather.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 9:53 AM EDT

You were right the first time!

Relic October 26 2007 9:53 AM EDT

You are missing the point Talion. Certain strategies will dominate others, that is the beauty of CB. While others will decimate your own. Stop trying to fix something that isn't broken. It is that way by design.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 9:53 AM EDT

Illithias, Ranger and Mikel are not nigh impossible to beat... I have Stalemated with both of them on occasion... which in my mind states I am working my way to beating them. Give me another 1 mil mpr and I'll be set.

As for the Robf... I will just stop trying since nobody but a select few seem to be listening.

QBRanger October 26 2007 9:58 AM EDT

Well stated from the RBF users!

It is not too powerful so leave it alone.


Score / PR / MPR: 1,450,729 / 785,814 / 543,621 is not too bad considering the RBF is the only method of attack.

While almost all strategies have someone below them they lose to, who do RBF characters lose to? People with other RBFs, people with souped up weapons, and people with a high MPR advantage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 10:00 AM EDT

draco it truly only matters if one person is listening. many people do seem to think that if a majority of users create an outcry, jon will change it. from all my years i will give jon kudos for doing what he thinks is best regardless of public sentiment. at times it may seem he goes with the flow, but i am convinced that those occasions have merely been coincidence. all of this is my humble opinion though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 10:05 AM EDT

and here is horseguy's new ncb char, he uses a toe btw:

Score / PR / MPR: 1,373,745 / 782,991 / 533,897

his character is even going up against people who have tried to set up foils against his strategy which is not necessarily the case with the robf.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 10:06 AM EDT

What I'd really like to see is the dust settle around each new introduction or change to the game before everyone cries "uber!".

Since Jon fixed the PL bug I have serious trouble killing PL teams, especially as my attack is only once a round. And enough damage from mages will go over the threshold and kill me. And unlike mage attacks I get diverted by the AoI.

And right there in those three sentences is enough information to provide a strategy to take me out. And no need for USD input.....

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 10:09 AM EDT

JW, When you hit 2 mil mpr then get back to me on what can beat you. Low level comparisons mean nothing compared to the high level exp to back it up.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 10:10 AM EDT

We need both ends of the spectrum though to judge how 'uber' something is though? Right? Or is the game just about the top levels?

QBRanger October 26 2007 10:13 AM EDT

100% agreed JW,

However you are a bit low right now.

Wait till you get to 500k MPR or so to start seeing who attacks you, farms you, who you can farm etc...

Also, why DB's instead of EB's to boost the evasion and give you more AC?

But seriously, you do not see a problem with the RBF? The fact you can do damage that is non reflectable always hitting? And an evasion that nobody in your MPR range can even attempt to hit, boosted by a AOF and elven gear?

Constant damage where the worst case scenario is a stalemate?

Perhaps we need to reboost the ToA?

Flamey October 26 2007 10:17 AM EDT

"Perhaps we need to reboost the ToA?"

No. No. We shouldn't just boost something to bring it up with something else, we just need to bring down the RoBF a bit, if you boost the ToA, that'll be the only thing that can kill when it is coupled with massive weapons.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 10:21 AM EDT

i can only speak for myself on that count, but damage that can already be reduced by up to 85%. that is with no changes to your strategy. where is the cap on that? we don't know that yet and if the cap is non-existent and it can be reduced 100% then is it not silly to also want to nerf it further?

you said earlier we robf supporters are saying it is fine. talk about putting words in others mouths! most of what i have read and stated is wait and see. give people time to adapt, then we can decide how uber it is.

Kong Ming October 26 2007 10:21 AM EDT

After reading through the threads, I see your point on the RoBF potentially becoming overpowered because of the evasion and AMF specialization. Maybe we do need to introduce something to control at least one of the specialization of the RoBF. Maybe a reduction to skill or enchantment or active damage being stopped by AMF.

QBJohnnywas October 26 2007 10:21 AM EDT

I can see where the opposition is coming from. And I do agree about stalemates. The potential for many an extended battles is frankly huge. I don't, however, see it as 'uber' yet. I may do. I don't often in these situations though. Maybe because I can already see the counters for this one.

Also agreed - what can beat you at this level is often nothing like what you lose to at upper levels.

I did say in the one of the other threads that it maybe a new counter could be created for this; rather than reducing it against existing items/strats. Then you get the rock/paper/scissors effect back again.

And DBs? Easier to get hold of lately than EBs!

Talion October 26 2007 10:29 AM EDT

"We need both ends of the spectrum though to judge how 'uber' something is though? Right? Or is the game just about the top levels?"

Something that is uber at low levels does not mater unless it stay uber all the up to the top. UC is the perfect example of that.

Single FB mages are awesome forces to be reckoned with until higher levels. At higher levels, there are many methods to counter them, so no one complains about single FB mages.

So I do think that the most important spectrum is the higher spectrum. The spectrum you only reach if you play with the same character for a long long time and/or invest lots and lots of $ into it.

QBRanger October 26 2007 10:32 AM EDT

But in this case we have a perfect example of a RBF at a high level.

And his tattoo is 1/2 the size of what it should be. I would hate to see what Dudemus would do with a 3M tattoo or a 4M tattoo-*shudder*.

We already see how many people he can beat using a 1.7M RBF, do we really need to wait till a NCB gets a 3-4M tattoo up to 2.2M MPR?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 26 2007 10:39 AM EDT

not beat, stalemate. the only people i added to my fight list that were wins where there were no wins before were lower mpr characters. i get so tired of saying that!

in the same vein i only have one or two people in my fight list that are higher mpr's than i. they are both within 100k mpr of me i believe though.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 26 2007 11:19 AM EDT

Okay so lets all go 4 minion robf lead minion with mgs wall in the back and we will call the game StalemateBlender. That is gonna be so much fun >.<

Talion October 26 2007 12:06 PM EDT

"We already see how many people he can beat using a 1.7M RBF, do we really need to wait till a NCB gets a 3-4M tattoo up to 2.2M MPR?"

I should there in the next 60 to 70 days. :) Although my tattoo level will probably hover around my MPR level instead of my MTL.

I hate stalemates though. ,So I am going a different way. I still think I will slowly become very difficult to beat if things do not change.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 26 2007 1:55 PM EDT

"who do RBF characters lose to?"

Who do Uber Elb characters lose to?

QBRanger October 26 2007 2:05 PM EDT

Exactly, missile damage we all know and agree is borked.
So comparing something that is borked with the RBF tells me you agree it is borked also!

Mikel October 26 2007 2:27 PM EDT

".....Now if the robf received damage due to either amf or ga you would have more hp and wouldn't have such a high evasion that non usd tanks can't ever hope to hit you."

I can't hit him either. Archery 1.0 and big USD Elb.

lostling October 26 2007 2:41 PM EDT

simple nerf to ROBF :) make AMF reduction stack nonlinearly with the 20% flat out reduction that the tatt gives :) (DBs and evasion stuff)

suggestion by ranger
allow AMF to cut down the damage output of ROBF but no retaliation damage taken on the ROBF minion

Flamey October 26 2007 8:18 PM EDT

Since it gets reduced physically, it's unfair to to let AMF affect it. GA would be a better option.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 26 2007 8:28 PM EDT

"Exactly, missile damage we all know and agree is borked. So comparing something that is borked with the RBF tells me you agree it is borked also!"

LoL! Nice try, but no. ;)

(Actually, I do think the RoBF needs some adjustment, but it's nothing to d owith either the damage it puts out, nor who can't beat ELB users. :P)

Ah damn it. I'll come out with it. I don't like the RoBF as it does everything. Physical Damage Reduction, Magical Damage Reduction, it's own unique type of Damage. It's not a single thing that stands out for me, it's the whole package I don't like. It's like the 'Uber' item of the game.

But I wouldn't say a specific part of it was 'overpowered'. If that makes any sense.

It just seem too good to me to promote good strategy. It's just *is*.

Flamey October 26 2007 8:50 PM EDT

"Physical Damage Reduction"

What have I been missing?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 26 2007 9:06 PM EDT

Evasion. ;)

Flamey October 26 2007 9:09 PM EDT

That's not damage reduction!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 26 2007 9:44 PM EDT

It is if you cut out a hit (or two!). :P

Pedant! ;)

sooka October 26 2007 10:00 PM EDT

I think this thread is in good hands... but the word "borked" ... lol
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002G3z">Thoughts on evasion, XP and the RBF</a>