So the RBF is not overpowered? (in General)


QBRanger November 2 2007 2:52 PM EDT

Just look at Koy now.

I was able to drop over 300M NW on it and still beat my fightlist.

I do not need my MH due to the fact the RBF always hit and is not susceptible to AMF or a MgS. It helps disperse the damage from a FB or CoC due to its magic resistance.

One can say my EC skews things, but then change my Ethereal Chains: 4,234,464/3,414,891 (2,117,252) to an evasion, then give it a AoF/EB/EG combo and it will be higher then almost anyone (even Mikel) can hit. Same overall effect.

Any doubters still?

Dark Dreky November 2 2007 2:57 PM EDT

I never really wanted to say this but...

it's overpowered.

QBJohnnywas November 2 2007 3:14 PM EDT

Can't you beat your fightlist no matter what the tattoo? Or is there a tattoo that causes you to lose?

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 3:17 PM EDT

One thing that would need to be investigated is how much you could have shed with your ToE. Were you as lean as possible when using that?

My point is that you have a very large tattoo. So, it might seem over-powered no matter what it is. Perhaps the RoBF is only all-the-more powerful because of your current build, a very good damage reduction build.

If you retrained and went crazy on a Halidon-specific build, would the Halidon seem overpowered? If you switched to all Fireball and changed your tattoo into a fire familiar, would fire familiars seem overpowered? Similarly, if I were to switch to a ToE under my current setup, I would probably consider it a worthless piece of crap -- that's because I am not a defensive build, and I have very little in the way of HP.

I see your point, and the RoBF is a nice tattoo, but I am still skeptical that one character's viewpoint on it (without doing a complete re-build), using an aberrantly-sized tattoo, is 100% accurate?

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 3:20 PM EDT

Hm, I really need to research before posting...just looked at Koy...I am pretty sure you couldn't be nearly that naked with any other tattoo and still beat your whole list. That's really a sight to behold.

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 3:22 PM EDT

Sorry, one more post for perspective: Koy is 14th on the NW list right now, with a bunch of that NW being in his MgS and MsK. Those items account for around 77 million out of 217 million total NW, and they are probably very far from the reason he is winning...

QBRanger November 2 2007 3:29 PM EDT

Also,

My tattoo has a NW of over 112M.

I can beat my entire fightlist with a ROE, however I have to be fully equipped to do so.

IE, vs Igot noname I need my +201 MH to even hit his minion
vs Vlad I need my DBs to avoid getting hit from his axbow and missing him if he rents Freed's DB
vs NS I need my DBs to avoid his super draining exbow even though it does less then 10 points damage a hit.

But with the RBF I need hardly any items.

QBJohnnywas November 2 2007 3:37 PM EDT

You know how much I hate 'overpowered'. It's like GL with Tulwar, say the word and see me appear. ;)

When did you make this change? Does it still work for you without your archer equipped?

I don't doubt that it is a very powerful item. The basic premise made the Cloak in the 'old days' one of the most powerful items in the game (I still miss it in cloak form....). But I'm still not seeing any difference in how powerful my char is from times I've climbed up with a SoD, with UC, with ToA, with Morg, with ELB. My score/PR/MPR ratio has been like this everytime.

So, my own particular view on 'overpowered' is mostly that it's the player not the item. And when the player is you...well........;)

Talion November 2 2007 3:44 PM EDT

The mere fact that he does need the MH to win anymore should show everyone that the RoBF is overpowered because of the fact that it hits 100% of the time with no AMF or GA consequences.

Make the RoBF CTH dependent on offensive DX vs. defensive DX. Then it would still be usable, but it would not be overpowered anymore.

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 3:55 PM EDT

JW, have you looked at Koy right now? He is practically naked (though I would still like to see a breakdown of the damage done by the RoBF minion and that done by the archer, Ranger), and his team is a not a specifically-RoBF-synergy stance. No PL to help keep the RoBF minion alive, no defensive DEs... The supporting cast, other than the archer, are just pure enchanters. And they would enchant no matter what tattoo he was using. Yet he needs a lot more gear with any other tattoo type.

Sorry, but I think that is a pretty clean litmus test.

noneedforthese November 2 2007 4:02 PM EDT

The real question is can you drop nothing BUT MGS/MSK and still beat everyone?

You have an EC that completely removes tanks from being able to beat you, and you have a TSA on one of the highest natural HP characters in the game coupled with a I-Auto-Win-Vs-Mages bow and I-Auto-Win-Vs-Mages shield.

Should it be any surprising that you are winning with the _perfect_ RoBF strategy?

noneedforthese November 2 2007 4:03 PM EDT

Oh and let me add, if RoBF is overpowered, I call for an immediate nerf on everything that NWO uses. How dare he achieve such score with such low NW?

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 4:09 PM EDT

How is Koy's build the perfect RoBF strategy? His EC, AMD, MgS, and MsK would be the same regardless of tattoo. Those aspects of Koy are constant, they are not RoBF-specific.

Yet with the RoBF, he can wear less than with any other tattoo. This isn't a purely low-NW nerf (so I am not quite sure I understand the NWO comment -- NWO cannot beat the people Koy can, and NWO can be beaten by certain characters (like me)).

Ranger, I think posting the damage figures done by your archer vs. the RoBF minion would be very enlightening.

QBJohnnywas November 2 2007 4:27 PM EDT

Putting an RBF on Koy is not the best way to test if something is overpowered, given that (yes, I know it's with a lot of NW) Koy can beat everyone with a RoE equipped. Essentially meaning Koy can beat everyone WITHOUT a tattoo. NW is part of that equation, but it shows the basics of the character concerned.

Now, if any of the other chars in the top ten could become unbeatable with a RBF equipped by anybody then I might start to change my mind lol.

QBRanger November 2 2007 4:33 PM EDT

Yet again,

I cannot beat Lega, Vlad (if he uses Freeds DBs), Igot noname, Black Sophist, and Iconics without my MH equipped. Even using a +128 weapon makes me stalemate these characters.

I can beat everyone but NWO and Sut without my MsB on, but then again my AMF is woefully low. One can assume my EC is equal to evasion for the purposes of not getting hit. I can make that assumption.

Now, if I made Cloudscape and Microchips only AMF and changed the over 3M EC on Prophecies to evasion, I would beat everyone on my list easily.

So basically the RBF takes the place of a 204M NW MH. Not too shabby.

QBRanger November 2 2007 4:34 PM EDT

My MsB does about 1.1M a hit to low AC non TOE minions.

My RBF does about the same per round.

QBRanger November 2 2007 4:38 PM EDT

Also,

Without my MgS I beat everyone but Sut, equipped as I am.

I could get a bit more AC and likely beat Hubbell without the MgS.

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 4:51 PM EDT

Can we see the overall damage figures from battle log? I wasn't asking how hard the archer hit, I want to know how much of the win he is "responsible" for against some average characters. What is the damage split against a nice array of cases, say Hubbell (representing mage/familiar), Dixie Cousins (mage/JKF), igot (RoBF), and Failure (melee tank). I think those figures would be neat, if you can run them.

Johnny, I agree that Koy is a funky test case, but if you look at it from the other way, he is the perfect test case... Since he can beat most folks, the question as to which tattoo is best for reduces to two questions:

-- Which tattoo let's him strip the most?
-- Is his build especially catered to whichever tattoo let's him strip the most?

I think the answers to the questions are "RoBF" and "no", respectively. That means the RoBF is the most "powered" for Koy. Does that mean OVERpowered? I'm not sure. But it's at least interesting.

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 4:56 PM EDT

I'm confused... My Fire Familiar can't kill off your RoBF wearer in ranged? He only has 10,000 HP...

Or am I way off the mark on the RoBF -- does it keep firing as long as anyone on your team is alive?

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 4:58 PM EDT

Ah, the classic "hits for no damage"...dang, spread-fireball is weak. Then again, an RoBF of that size has some damn fine magic reduction. Gotta love thresholds!

QBJohnnywas November 2 2007 4:59 PM EDT

What damage are you doing against that minion Sut?

QBsutekh137 November 2 2007 5:01 PM EDT

^^^^^

See above. My fireball hits for no damage the whole of ranged and beyond.

His RoBF protects 800K in damage. Spread fireball cannot overcome that, and Decay could never land the killing blow, and no GA/AMF to fight back with.

That's one of the coolest things about the RoBF -- doesn't even need that many hit points. PL also helps there.

QBJohnnywas November 2 2007 5:06 PM EDT

You answered just as I was asking.


I don't disagree that it's powerful. The ability to pump XP into any stat you choose while wearing it, and for the most part not needing NW...but you can do that particular thing with any of the familiar tats.

But I'm not even sure if the power lies in the damage it puts out. The lack of counters to that damage, apart from the ToE, Prot and AC of course, make it very attractive to use. It does mean you can go after a wider range of opponents; that is, you don't really have to avoid anybody.

But for me, I'm not achieving anything with the RBF that I haven't done with ToA, ToE, FF, Morg, SoD, ELB. So it hasn't let me do anything I haven't done before.

What I think is a bad side of the RBF is the ability to create stalemates. That means that something in the balance is off. I'm not saying 'overpowered' because I don't think it is. But it is off balance.

Either the damage reduction needs to come down, or the damage output needs to come up. If you address what makes it able to create so many stalemates then it should become a tattoo that appeases the 'overpowered' people.

QBRanger November 2 2007 5:08 PM EDT

The RBF does not do damage if the minion wearing it dies.

This is one reason most people on a multi minion team have a huge evasion on the minion that wears it.

QBRanger November 2 2007 5:16 PM EDT

'But for me, I'm not achieving anything with the RBF that I haven't done with ToA, ToE, FF, Morg, SoD, ELB. So it hasn't let me do anything I haven't done before. '

But with a RBF one does not need all the NW into a SoD, ELB, Morg, etc....

That is the thing I am trying to prove with Koy's current setup.

I can beat my fightlist with a RBF and unequp all my weapons except for my MsB.

Out of my 217M NW this is the breakdown:
Spiral [5x2500] (+167) worth $62,573,603 owned by Ranger (Koyaanisqatsi)
Steeds of the Apocalypse lvl 4,996,766 worth $112,135,480 owned by Ranger (Koyaanisqatsi)
Piercer [3] (+14) worth $4,351,764 owned by Ranger (Koyaanisqatsi)
Skull [0] (+11) worth $11,080,945 owned by Ranger (Koyaanisqatsi)
Deflect [0] (+46) worth $15,877,243 owned by Ranger (Koyaanisqatsi)
and a 9m nw TSA

QBRanger November 2 2007 5:20 PM EDT

With my current setup I lose to Conundrum, NWO and Hubbell not using my MsB.

However, I am almost certain if I retrained Cloudscape to a 2M AMF and used a corn on him, I would beat my entire fightlist with just a RBF.

I do about 500-600k damage a round to Bast's JKF.

I do about 400k damage to Lega's tank given his 115 or so AC and 3.5M AMF.

I do about 1M to NWO's back minion, AC 114 or so.

I do about 600k damage a round to Igot noname.

All this damage is automatic each round. No need for plus to hit on a weapon.

True, of course, my tattoo is about 5M.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 2 2007 5:31 PM EDT

so you're saying a 112 m nw tat is about as powerful as a 204 m nw weapon?

Iluvatar[NK] November 2 2007 5:41 PM EDT

If not more. Always hits, no damage reflect, less reduction methods, no need of minion to train str, no upgrade costs.

It's definitely broken at least to some degree. His is really not a pure RoBF team, and can still crush everyone. He cannot forgo his MH with any other tatt, AFAIK.

QBRanger November 2 2007 5:42 PM EDT

That is a very good question.

One is comparing different things.

The weapon of course is very powerful, but needs a lot of NW to be effective.
The tattoo one grows and puts no NW into except for the money buying BA.

But, if your question is what if more effective, there is no doubt in my mind that the RBF is far better.

Especially if you are in the lower BA regeneration zones and the WA is a major concern. Add in the small evasion bonus the RBF gives and the magic resistance on minion wearing it and it is far better.

Now someone in chat brought up the fact my tattoo is very high. Wiith a 3.5M tatttoo, things would not change. My battles last no longer then 15 rounds so the lower damage would just mean a few more rounds of battle.

Hyrule Castle November 2 2007 5:43 PM EDT

dude: only if that tat is a ROBF

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 2 2007 5:57 PM EDT

i assume then that you know if ranger tested all of the familiars doing damage as well as the robf?

QBRanger November 2 2007 6:02 PM EDT

I have tested all the Familiars, as well as the ROS and TOA.

The familiars are good, however as Koy is setup (no AS), they die from either GA or AMF vs numerous characters.

The HF is good, however it still is vulnerable to GA and does not hit high evasion minions in missile. In melee, with the penalties missile gets, my HF has no chance to hit high evasion minions. I need all my NW to beat a few characters with very high evasions.

The RoS is nice but I still need all my NW to keep my fightlist.

The TOA is nice but I still need all my NW and 2 tanks as GA does me in badly AND without the MgS on my tank mages eat me alive.

However, with the RBF, I can drop over 300M NW and keep my fightlist. I do not even need my 204M MH or one of my bows. That alone is quite the shock when I first tested it out.

I was 98% sure before the RBF was out of balance. Now I am 110% sure.

QBRanger November 2 2007 6:09 PM EDT

However this is quite puzzling:

I have a 5M RBF, dudemus has a 1.8M RBF

I have 95 AC on my tank, dudemus has 59 AC on his minion.

Here is a screen shot of the melee part of the battle.

Q: Why does my tattoo, almost 3x his do less then 1.5x the damage of his. And my tank has more AC then his minion as well.

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

Lumpy Koala November 2 2007 6:14 PM EDT

how big is his prot?

QBRanger November 2 2007 6:22 PM EDT

Karn figured it out, stupid me:

With my RBF on my tank here is the new battle:

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] November 2 2007 6:23 PM EDT

The question is how do you do vs Oxcha, which actually has ac and a toe to help vs that active damage. I think ac and toe aura can deal with the damage quite effectively.

QBRanger November 2 2007 6:23 PM EDT

I do about 50k a round to Oxcha. Not a lot given his 400AC and massive TOE.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 2 2007 6:28 PM EDT

my prot casts at 22.

when i fight koy your robf does about the same as in that screenshot, however my damage is about half those numbers.

you say the others are good but that is a bit of a subjective statement. i was wondering how much nw you could drop with them specifically. the robf is quite different as far as strategy goes though so i am not sure how much that data would even help the matter though. the other familiars provide a kill slot that the balrog doesn't. it really isn't much of a comparison.

i guess we are still stuck at those who believe it to be overpowered will continue to do so and those that don't still won't. jon is the one that matters though. i have posted in at least two of the other robf threads that one way to keep the robf as a new strategy (treating it like all other damage really just makes it like all the existing familiars, no?) would be to drop the evasion and dd blockage. since it does allow for such xp concentration and the ability to really max those out.

i really like that solution rather than the others out there if it is deemed to be too strong by jon.

QBRanger November 2 2007 6:38 PM EDT

Considering my MH is 204M and the only tattoo I can drop it with to beat my fightlist entirely is the RBF, that alone should say quite a lot.

With the other tattoos, I can drop about 50M at most, but nothing like the RBF where I can easily drop 300M from my "invincible" NW.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 2 2007 6:46 PM EDT

so oxcha is reducing your robf damage by about 95% and that is without even any protection? my problem is that most of the solutions i see want to further reduce this, which then means it would be possible to mitigate the damage entirely or to turn it into the other familiar types in which case we really don't need it at all as we already have them.

QBRanger November 2 2007 6:50 PM EDT

Oxcha is a very special case.

No damage except the VB or a super high CoC works vs him.

My MH does about the same damage, although I do him 3 times a round.

There has to be some way to counter the always hitting RBF that is immune to the effects of AMF and GA.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 2 2007 6:52 PM EDT

koy is also a special case and i would say that over 95% reduction is a quite effective counter especially since he's not even using one aspect of the known counters to the robf.

horseguy001 November 2 2007 8:19 PM EDT

One aspect of the RoBF makes it too powerful, and it has nothing to do with the damage. The magic resistance has to go, and here is the one example that changed my mind:

Take a look at lostling's character the Fallen. His AMF casts for 0.00 on my CoC, which has an effective level of 500k. At under 600k mp, his tat is capable of completely blocking my CoC once in awhile.

That reduction is just way too high. The damage is easy to handle, a ToE and some AC do the job quite nicely (AMF backlash wastes my mage long before a RoBF when I have my ToE on).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 2 2007 9:08 PM EDT

Max Tattoo Level is too high.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 2 2007 9:10 PM EDT

I'll elaborate.

Down in the little leagues, the Tattoo is not overpowered. You're beaten by Mages and High NW weapons under WA.

As you get higher, the MTL grows too much, and what was once balanced now becomes too overbearing.



Godpanda November 2 2007 9:32 PM EDT

That's been the case for a long time with multiple tattoos. They're only -too- powerful the higher you get. But is it really?

Most people use NCBs, and are in the top 100 int he first month... soooooooo.... How do we really know?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 3 2007 7:42 AM EDT

Easy. Lower the MTL to MPR, then see if Ranger can still beat his whole fightlist, naked, with only a MgS and a RBF.

QBRanger November 3 2007 10:10 AM EDT

I cannot beat 3 people without my MSB as I am not set up for a RBF team.

If I made Cloudscape an AMF only enchanter then certainly I can beat my fightlist.

But with a RBF 1/2 the size i should be able to beat everyone I currently do, setup as I currently am.

I do not know what the difficulty is.

With a RBF I do not need a 204M MH, no other tattoo gives me that much offensive power.

And Koy does not even use the magic resistance or evasion powers of the RBF, only the offensive always hitting power of the RBF which is immune to GA AND AMF.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 3 2007 10:23 AM EDT

by your own numbers though someone with a lower mpr, but a higher nw, can reduce your "overpowered" rbf damage by over 95% without even using one of the aspects of the rbf counters. we don't really know what kind of reduction he could get with protection added in.

the counters exist. adding more counters would only make it possible to completely nullify rbf damage and neuter a new strategy option. i think this all proves that the damage may not be the issue here if an issue even exists.

QBRanger November 3 2007 10:28 AM EDT

Yes, the TOE/400 AC combo will reduce the RBF damage to bearable.

However, it does it to all damage except a huge COC (Conundrum) or a huge VB (Alchemist). It even neutralizes my 204M MH.

However, AMF works wonders vs a huge CoC and EC/evasion/DBs work great vs a huge VB. GA works great vs both as long as they do not have DM.

What else works vs the RBF? Evasion? DB? AMF? GA? No, the only counter is huge AC and/or a TOE. That is, nothing else.

With only 1 real counter to the RBF, can you not see it is overpowered with respect to all other damage types in CB?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 3 2007 10:36 AM EDT

the fact that you see over 95% reduction as "bearable" is where we can most likely never be on the same page. i think damage reduction/mitigation in the more than 70 percent range is overpowered and has been for a while now. this holds true for nw or xp based damage, i do not think it should be possible to mitigate and reduce damage to nothing.

you also keep forgetting protection! in my humble opinion it is not so much the quantity of counters as you seem to think is important, but the quality of them. even if there are only 3, but you can reduce the damage to nothing, then why do we really need more counters added in?

there is too much mitigation and reduction in the game as it is. it is the overpowered thing in cb. it does seem to be the norm, but that doesn't make it right. with most of this being nw based mitigation or reduction it also gives usd spenders a big advantage over non spenders.

QBRanger November 3 2007 10:54 AM EDT

By bearable I mean by the character taking the damage, not by the character giving it. It is frustrating to do only 50k damage with my RBF to Oxcha but he is set up as an almost perfect defensive character.

There has to be ways to mitigate damage to be a defensive character. Removing the layers of protection and the ways of protection makes CB2 more like CB1. Everyone gets the massive damage dealing item and battles end in less then 4 rounds. Not 1/2 the battles, all of them.

Yes, i forget about protection as it works vs all forms of damage. So the RBF has 4 way to reduce/counter its damage: Protection, TOE, PL and AC.

Let us count the ways for physical and magical:

Physical:

DB
EC
AC
TOE
Protection
Evasion
GA
Haste (to get more dex to be hit less)
Strength (little only in melee rounds)
UC (for its evasion effect)
PL

Magic:

MgS (huge as fairly little NW reduces it a lot)
AMF (the big one as it does damage back to the caster)
GA
AC
TOE
Protection
PL

None of the RBF's ways can reduce either reduce the damage to 0 (as UC/DB/evasion/EC can), or cause damage back to the damage dealer (GA/AMF). Versus the RBF one can only hope to live long enough to either get a lucky hit in or stalemate.

While you believe that 95% damage reduction is bad, I believe that 100% reduction is worse. Evasion is 100%, you do no damage. With such high evasions, only USD weapons can possibly hit. Is that better then Oxcha's AC/TOE combo? I think not. One can use a similar analogy in my EC, however the xp I need in my EC is far far more then the xp needed in evasion to get a similar effect. DB's are NW so its NW vs NW of which I have less a problem with.

And let us not forget the boost the RBF gives to evasion to help it further. Not a big boost but still a boost.

And also, do not forget the magic resistance of the RBF. Have a nice sized AMF and you do damage back to the spell caster AND can take virtually no damage from the DD spell.

How about this:

Let us remove evasion. Then physical damage will have one less counter but still multifold more then the RBF. Then i will think the RBF is just fine.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 3 2007 11:02 AM EDT

"None of the RBF's ways can reduce either reduce the damage to 0"

my whole point here is that the above statement is not proven. if oxcha had protection how do we know that he couldn't reduce it all the way? i think it would depend on the stacking effect but it might be possible, we just don't know yet.

looking at the above counters to rbf, none are usd based. in effect they can only be bought with xp. maybe that is the reason i do like it, it is not an aspect of the game that one can throw enough money at to make it go away.

as i have stated multiple times now, if jon deems it overpowered, why not reduce/remove the evasion boost and the magic reduction? the concentrated xp that one can do kinda gives those a double whammy.

QBJohnnywas November 3 2007 11:04 AM EDT

Are you asking that the RBF doesn't work with evasion? Or are you suggesting evasion should go from the game?

QBRanger November 3 2007 11:09 AM EDT

I agree 100%

But.. Without USD how can one beat a RBF character?

Concentrate the xp into evasion (boosted currently by the RBF), AMF (to both lower magic damage and reflect damage back, then further nerfed by the RBF), and HP (for fun).

It is the perfect strategy. No real weakness. RBF always hitting. Invulnerability to AMF and GA. The best anyone can hope for without USD is stalemate.

That is the problem. No real counter EXCEPT for USD. USD weapons.

People profess to want a non-USD game. Well the RBF is that game. If there was no USD in the game, why would everyone not go with the RBF? Concentration of xp as we all know is far more effective then splitting it. The RBF lets you do that the minimum amount of ways.

The AoF makes it much worse as it gives quite the evasion uber-boost but that is for another thread.

TheHatchetman November 3 2007 11:10 AM EDT

I thought he meant remove the evasion on the RoBF... keep it on the minion or in the game...

QBRanger November 3 2007 11:12 AM EDT

No, I meant remove it or nerf it again.

As that would be the only way a Non-USD character can try to beat a RBF character if they do not use the RBF as well.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] November 3 2007 11:42 AM EDT

Oxcha IS using robf counters in the form of AC and PL so I don't really understand what you mean when you say he is " not using any known counters to Robf". Both the active damage and evasion can be dealt with however it can be difficult since the build is intuitive to dumping all exp into evasion,amf and hp. These stats are then made all the more effective by the robf abilities.

The problem lies in magic reduction. My 3.8 mil CoC does no damage to edyit's robf wearing minion the whole fight, thereby keeping my coc at 3 targets (i kill 1 enchanter). A Direct damage spell like coc does have advantages vs 2 minions or 1 minion robf teams since there is no damage spread, but once 4 minions come into play my dd is totally nerfed.

The robf therefore has a counter to both tanks and mages and a damage source which is immune to ga. It is almost the perfect familiar.

QBRanger November 3 2007 11:44 AM EDT

Out of the 4 known counters to the RBF, Oxcha is using 3.

The 4th-protection is not a reliable spell so he does not use it.

Sacredpeanut November 3 2007 1:52 PM EDT

"Let us remove evasion. Then physical damage will have one less counter but still multifold more then the RBF. Then i will think the RBF is just fine."

I'd personally go with either:

1) A reduction in the DD it reduces and/or cap the reduction at say 80%.

2) A reduction in the damage the RBF does

In your case in the initial post, it is the ability to stop DD and the quite significant guaranteed damage each round that is winning the battles, so why would removing Evasion solve anything?

You imply that the RBF is overpowered because you can beat everyone with virtually no networth yet this would still be the case with an Evasion nerf would it not?

yoyo November 4 2007 12:04 AM EDT

I think most people agree at this point that the RoBF needs to be readjusted to bring it back in line with other tattoos in the game. However, the people that mainly do physical damage want the evasion dropped off and the people that do magical damage want the reduction taken away. The inherit problem is that both are very overpowered. It might make more sense to reduce both then take only one away. For example maybe bring the evasion down to 20% and the DD reduction down to a flat 7%. I still think that even if both are reduced the damage may need a slight adjustment too. 15% tat level for damage plus the other two changes may bring the RoBF inline with other tattoos.

I think whatever is going to be done should be done quickly though. People who are currently using the RoBF have a score much higher then their MR rating should allow. I am sure once the change happens current RoBF users will be farmed mercilessly. Additionally, they will probably have to modify their strategy a great deal. The longer the wait is for the adjustment of the RoBF the more points RoBF users are going to loose when they have to retrain.

Lastly, I think talk of "nerfing" the RoBF is the wrong way to look at it. All tattoos should have equal strength and worth. At least as equal as possible. So the goal I would imagine would be to bring the RoBF in line with other tattoos that are currently in the game. If reducing the effectiveness of the tattoo is not the answer then i guess another solution would be to increase the effectiveness of every other tat in the game.

Thanks for your time.

Mikel November 4 2007 12:15 PM EST

I just put one on, and I lose to Violent Femmes (decay) but gained Igotnoname.
I don't have any AMF trained at all, and still ran thru everyone else. Also, I took off my Elb and put on an MH.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 12:23 PM EST

what tat was it and what level was it?

Spawn November 4 2007 12:25 PM EST

Rangers?

Mikel November 4 2007 12:37 PM EST

Yes, Rangers:
Steeds of the Apocalypse lvl 5,008,111
The important thing though, is I'm not even setup properly to run with an ROBF. If I were to use one, I'd no longer really need a weapon, so no need for DM, ST, Dex and Archery on my Tank minion. Which I would convert most of that to AMF and stop mages in their tracks because they wouldn't be able to do enough damage to my Mage Wall that he couldn't regenerate.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 4 2007 1:44 PM EST

Max Tattoo Level is too high.

QBRanger November 4 2007 2:09 PM EST

If the MTL was lowered, the only change for me would be a bit less damage with my RBF, however it would still do more then enough to beat everyone on my fightlist.

My MTL is Max tattoo: 6,598,317, so if you want to lower the MTL, you can lower it 25% and Steeds will be about that level. How much lower do you want to lower it? 1/2? Then Steeds will be 3.2M, still enough to do plenty of damage. Just ask Edyit how much his RBF does at that level.

Max Tattoo Level has absolutely NOTHING to do with the overpowered RBF.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 2:22 PM EST

Yes, it's a big mystery that you can beat everybody with your huge MPR and RoBF. Who would have known MPR helps you win?

The RoBF is a little overpowered, but you're simply ignoring the fact of those two huge advantages you naturally have over other people.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 2:24 PM EST

"A reduction in the DD it reduces and/or cap the reduction at say 80%."

I like that idea.

Adminedyit November 4 2007 2:29 PM EST

My RBF Blessed Darkness lvl 3,242,207
A broad spectrum of damage done by it.

igot noname
the pacifist burns from the flames surrounding Spite (146569)
the pacifist burns from the flames surrounding Spite (189458)

The Iconics 3e
Alhandra burns from the flames surrounding Spite (624172)
Lidda burns from the flames surrounding Spite (773673)

The Lega
Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Spite (296404)
Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Spite (288571)

Conundrum
Juggernaut burns from the flames surrounding Spite (285035)
Juggernaut burns from the flames surrounding Spite (310232)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 2:39 PM EST

i would say reduction caps would be nice across the board in the game. when mm was my damage, it was very frustrating to have so much xp in it reduced to so little.

as for ed's numbers, why would my damage be the smallest. i don't have that big of ac and pretty small protection, is something else reducing rbf damage that we haven't found yet?

what do you get when you attack bast?

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 2:40 PM EST

Your RoBF reduces the damage Edy deals with his own.

QBRanger November 4 2007 2:42 PM EST

Dude,

Vs you your RBF lowers the damage you take due to your RBF.

Fanta,

The sheer fact I was not set up as a RBF team, that is little AMF and no evasion, shows how much the RBF is overpowered.

Vs characters like Dudemus, Nightstrike, Vlad, Lega, and NWO, the fact the RBF always hits, takes not GA damage, and is not vulnerable to AMF makes it the perfect tattoo.

Just look at the score/PR/MPR ratios of all the RBF characters.

Mikel November 4 2007 2:43 PM EST

"Yes, it's a big mystery that you can beat everybody with your huge MPR and RoBF. Who would have known MPR helps you win?

The RoBF is a little overpowered, but you're simply ignoring the fact of those two huge advantages you naturally have over other people." From Fanta

I'm not Top 10 in MPR, neither is Igotnoname, and again, all I did was pretty much switch out the Tattoo, and a couple of items and am not configured to use an ROBF. I've tried Familiars, but they die to fast.

QBRanger November 4 2007 2:48 PM EST

Mikel does not even need his ELB now. The RBF always hits and is AMF/GA resistant.

So much for his +225 or so ELB. Why make one of those when a tattoo can do much better?

Yes, I have a nice MPR advantage but what other tattoo lets me take off 3/5th of my NW and still beat everyone. No 203M MH needed? Only the RBF and it does it quite easily.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 4 2007 2:49 PM EST

Could anyone please put there attention back on elbs? So what if the RoBF is overpowered. Finally we have a good answer on stupid huge missile damage (not DD). You're complaining about the fact that one item has no counters against it? So what? I don't like the RoBF either and i don't like elbs.
But elbs can be overcome with evasion you might say.
So the only counter for the RoBF is a RoBF? big deal.

Let us all go home.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 2:51 PM EST

ah yes, i do forget about the robf and explosive shot reductions.

"Just look at the score/PR/MPR ratios of all the RBF characters." at any level you can find plenty of other tat users with similar or even better ratios. look at vlad tepes for instance, very similar to my ration while using the toa. i will admit they often have high net worth though.

QBRanger November 4 2007 2:55 PM EST

The high NW tells quite a tale.

Most anyone can have a great score/PR ratio with a lot of NW.

However, the trick is to do it with hardly any NW. The RBF is the only tattoo what I can see that lets you do that.

Imagine if Koy was set up properly to use the RBF? That is making Cloudscape entirely AMF and Grid entirely evasion/HP.

Jon, just give me 1 day of free retraining. I can get my NW to about 150M at most with the proper training.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:04 PM EST

the one big downside with my current setup is that i cannot ever switch over to the roe without retraining and losing mpr. with more minions that might not be as much of an issue, but with a single minion i am stuck once i went with this setup.

what this means is that since i was never really close mpr wise to koy, i will only fall further behind. if you could get free retraining and lose the option of using the roe would you still?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:05 PM EST

i also lost mpr going to this setup as well remember.

QBJohnnywas November 4 2007 3:06 PM EST

For months now we've had posts about how ranged was overpowered and various people have spoken out about how single minions have slowly lost out against multi minion teams in CB. Now we have something that enables a single minion to take people on and gain the upper hand over ranged damage.

How about for five minutes we smile and sit back and admire that situation and wait for somebody to come up with a team that can stomp it? If it doesn't happen then we need to address it. But I'm pretty certain now I've been fighting with it for a few weeks that it can be beaten pretty easily.

Now I'm off to eat pizza and look at my tabbed home page and wonder why I actually like it in the middle of all the whining.


;)

QBRanger November 4 2007 3:07 PM EST

Of course you cannot use the ROE, however, you have the ability to fight higher then before so your rewards may compensate a little.

I was asking for a day of retraining to test things out, to show how low I can get my NW. I would change back to the current setup of course.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:10 PM EST

once again, i fight no higher. i added no higher mpr characters to my fight list with the change. people took me off of their lists only, which equates to a possible .2 to .4 percent clan bonus difference from before. that is the only rewards benefit i have seen. since you added the roe i am losing ground to your ballooning mpr faster than ever.

QBRanger November 4 2007 3:11 PM EST

"How about for five minutes we smile and sit back and admire that situation and wait for somebody to come up with a team that can stomp it?"

We already see that,

Mikel cannot hit Dudemus in ranged with a +212 ELB backed by a TOA.

I cannot hit Dudemus in ranged due to his evasion with a 3.5M effective Ethereal Chains and backed by a +167 named bow and +5 named arrows.

The only people that can beat him are NWO, Hubbell, and those with uber NW weapons.

Does this not show it already?

Also, Dudemus is 1M MPR lower then me and without my 203M MH I cannot beat him. Without a TOE to lower his RBF's damage, I lose. Yes, I LOSE to him without either a TOE or RBF if I do not use my MH.

What more is there to show?

QBRanger November 4 2007 3:13 PM EST

Also,

Of course your RBF is woefully underpowered for your MPR.

Only 1.8M in size. I would like to see how you do with a decent level one.

Your kicking butt with 1 minion, and an undersized tattoo. How many people beat you now? How many will if you had a 3M RBF?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:20 PM EST

i am now wearing ranger's rbf for a little bit, my mtl is a hair over 4 million. i don't have much ba stored to test this so anyone wanting to fight me and see how i do with mtl maxed can do so for the next bit.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:23 PM EST

out of the four that could always beat me and had me on their lists. i still lost to them all except for nwo. i did beat him now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:24 PM EST

i also beat hubbel but not king of pain. unfortunately i am out of ba again.

Mikel November 4 2007 3:43 PM EST

I was wearing Freed's Elb when you hit me and I beat you in 2 rounds.
I just beat you in 4 rounds with my elb.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 3:46 PM EST

i also beat lega and dixie cousins as well as a few others that i would stalemate with my tat on.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 3:52 PM EST

"The sheer fact I was not set up as a RBF team, that is little AMF and no evasion, shows how much the RBF is overpowered."

You don't need evasion, you've got EC. Plus, you had a MSB equipped on a big tank with a MgS so you didn't really need AMF either.

Mikel November 4 2007 3:58 PM EST

and what about me Fanta? All I have is DB's and Mage Shield. Zero AMF and tons of wasted xp that doesn't do anything for me when wearing the RoBF?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 4:01 PM EST

i just beat koy in two fights. i tried to beat king of pain but couldn't even after four fights, hehe.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 4:05 PM EST

Alright, for you:

You borrowed Ranger's massive tattoo - way better than your previous one. The DBs you've got have 130M+ NW in them, and the MgS reduces over 50% of DD. Nor was the exp wasted (except for archery); you equipped your MH, the 150M+ NW one I believe, in exchange for the ELB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 4:16 PM EST

"The sheer fact I was not set up as a RBF team, that is little AMF and no evasion, shows how much the RBF is overpowered."

my take all along is very similar to what was stated above. with the largest tat in the game i am not invincible nor am i owning the game. all of this without anyone in the top 10 to 15 high score range changing much at all to combat the new strategy other than edyit and that is only because of his rbf usage as well.

give it some time for people to counter it. if countering it is too difficult then we can look at whether it is overpowered. at least one person was getting over 95 percent damage reduction already without using protection.

i do also think we need to stress that the stats from the low and mid-levels may be more important for balance anyways. even if i rocked everyone's world with steeds, how would i get one?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 4:23 PM EST

here is a fight log from my fight with koy using ranger's tat.

Prophecies burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (866464)
R.I.P. Prophecies

The Grid burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (734490)
The Grid crunched the pacifist with Boomstick [1063895]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [212779]
The Grid beat the pacifist with Boomstick [756096]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [151219]
The Grid regenerated 120,000 HP

The Grid burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (645025)
The Grid pounded the pacifist with Boomstick [646675]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [129335]
The Grid regenerated 120,000 HP

The Grid burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (678966)
The Grid crushed the pacifist with Boomstick [731431]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [106666]
The Grid crushed the pacifist with Boomstick [824353]
The Grid cries "Say Hello to my Little Friend!"
The Grid regenerated 120,000 HP

QBRanger November 4 2007 4:39 PM EST

The only reason I beat you is my MH is +220.

With a +130 weapon I miss and you would win.

Take away the USD weapons of Mikel, myself and Edyit and who is left that can beat you?

Conundrum? With a decent sized tattoo you can beat Hubbell and NWO with a minimal of NW.

C'mon, what is there not to see.

The counter to the RBF is the standard counters to damage, nothing different.

Please tell me what others should do to beat a RBF/evasion/AMF character?

AMF is useless, EC is near worthless unless you invest 50% of your xp into that one spell. DD spells or familiars? The AMF and then the RBF neutralizes it in almost all cases.

Again, what are people NOT doing to counter it that they should.

To paraphrase someone "If it means everyone in the game needs a TOE, how utterly boring and droll"

QBJohnnywas November 4 2007 4:45 PM EST

The Koy combo of the biggest ToE (as was) and EC has been pretty much unbeatable by anybody in the game, including Dude's char. Does that mean that you've been overpowered for the past year?

Maybe certain combos should be disallowed......;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 4:48 PM EST

"To paraphrase someone "If it means everyone in the game needs a TOE, how utterly boring and droll""

many of us have to be satisfied with rock/paper/scissors and cannot beat every strat out there. you are beating me without a toe i believe though. so now as counters we have ac, prot, toe and usd weaponry. i do not know what other counters might be around, all i am saying is let's find out. as opposed to what others are saying which seems to be: new is bad!

QBRanger November 4 2007 4:50 PM EST

Hmmm,

The RBF which everyone is using very effectively now vs Koy. The highest MPR/one of the highest NW tanks in the game.

Great analogy.

And some people do believe Koy is overpowered. I won't debate that point.

But the RBF needs almost no NW except for the tattoo and at the upper ranks, is immune to most DD spells and ALL non-USD weapons.

QBRanger November 4 2007 4:52 PM EST

Dudemus,

Do you think there are any other counters out there?

You have fought all the top characters, any out there you can think of? I cannot.

And yet again, Koy can beat you, certainly. With a TOE I can stalemate without my USD built weapon. But without one, you will either stalemate a character 33% bigger with bit more NW. Unless I also use a RBF.

Koy is a special case, yes. But then again, anyone can use a RBF, how many +200 or greater weapons are there?

QBRanger November 4 2007 4:56 PM EST

That was the 100th post just before.

I think this has been debated ad nauseum. Time to take a break from debating an obvious point.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 5:00 PM EST

as i have stated many times, i think that if people want to beat rbf strategies then they may need to trade armor with effects for armor with ac. also, i understand how protection is not that important today, other than base, because of dm. however if they really want to foil the rbf strategies then they might need to go higher with protection. combinations of those two along with the other counters is more of what i had in mind. combinations not being used at the present time.

now i admit that might dilute their xp and make them more vulnerable to other strategies. this is an inherent part of the game though and virtually guaranteed with any new dimension added to the game. if it doesn't cause all of these problems then it is probably just a reiteration of what we have already! this is why i am against, in a big way, turning the rbf into another dd familiar.

it currently has several aspects to it, if it is strong, tweak those aspects. changing it inherently is just silly in my mind, it should just be removed if that is the only option.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 5:05 PM EST

"Do you think there are any other counters out there?"

Well he didn't say RoBF was a counter in that list, so yes...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 4 2007 5:05 PM EST

one thing i can definitely agree with you on is the debate is tiresome. i haven't created any of these rbf threads though! :)

Mikel November 4 2007 5:38 PM EST

I find it amusing how Dude and Fanta were two of the biggest supporters of nerf the ToA, and now they are on the opposite side trying to save the RoBF.

Hey, if there's no change to it this next Change month, you bet I'll be switching to an RoBF. Saves me a ton of money from not having to buy arrows all the time.

Tyriel [123456789] November 4 2007 6:15 PM EST

Damage reduction against the RoBF is all well and good if you want to STALEMATE, but actually WINNING is a completely different thing.

To those thinking that the RoBF is not overpowered: make a list of all the strategies that can beat a single minion RoBF-Evasion-AMF strategy on equal terms.

To those who know that the RoBF is overpowered: make a list of the most-used strategies, state their weaknesses, and compare those weaknesses with said RoBF strategy.

I think you'll see that it's fairly obvious which lists are going to be longer...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 4 2007 6:16 PM EST

Max Tattoo Level too high.

"My RBF Blessed Darkness lvl 3,242,207
A broad spectrum of damage done by it.

igot noname
the pacifist burns from the flames surrounding Spite (146569)
the pacifist burns from the flames surrounding Spite (189458)

The Iconics 3e
Alhandra burns from the flames surrounding Spite (624172)
Lidda burns from the flames surrounding Spite (773673)

The Lega
Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Spite (296404)
Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Spite (288571)

Conundrum
Juggernaut burns from the flames surrounding Spite (285035)
Juggernaut burns from the flames surrounding Spite (310232)"

Over 3 Million in trained XP, and the max damage on the broadsheet was what, nearly 800K?

A 3 Mil CoC would do around 3 Mil base, facing zero AC target. How much does the 3 Mil Tattoo do?

(Yes yes, AMF reduces that. But look at the damage done when facing large AC, other RoBF users)

I don't like the RoBF, as explained elsewhere. But it's not overpowered. It's very beatable. It does too much, and as it levels the direct reduction of DD damage is too much. I don't in any way not think it doesn't need some tweaks. But the largest perception issues will be dealded with if we can get MTL back down to a sensible level.

And yes, even with the MTL bought down to MPR, I'm sure Ranger would still win with it. Perks of having the highest MPR don't you think. ;)

But then I'm sure Ranger would win with whatever Tattoo he decided to use. ;)

QBOddBird November 4 2007 6:21 PM EST

Bring MTL down to 1/4 of MPR!

*waves a picket sign*

lostling November 4 2007 6:48 PM EST

i do not see a problem :) as you go higher the small your tattoo gets in comparison with your MTL :) as i said before magic reduction needs to be tweeked but thats about it

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] November 4 2007 7:17 PM EST

"I find it amusing how Dude and Fanta were two of the biggest supporters of nerf the ToA, and now they are on the opposite side trying to save the RoBF."

I was using a ToA+SoD combo at the time of its nerf. I wasn't a huge supporter of the nerf, anyway, it just was a little too good. And I did admit that the RoBF was overpowered, but yours and Ranger's arguments were a little skewed.

QBRanger November 4 2007 7:42 PM EST

'But then I'm sure Ranger would win with whatever Tattoo he decided to use. ;)'

Ok, what part of my thread did you NOT read.

I can beat my list with all my high NW weapons equipped, almost 600M NW, and any tattoo. People see me do it with a ROE. But I had to have all my weapons/items equipped.

I need my MH to hit Igot noname, Lega, and Hubbell. That is with my EC.

I need my DB's to prevent the huge exbows/axbows from sucking all my str/dex. I need these vs Iconics, Vlad Tapes, and Alchemist.

I need 2 large bows (30 and 65M NW) to beat NWO and Violent Femmes with their huge GA.

I need my mageseeker to beat Conundrum, NWO, Violent Femmes and Hubbell.

I need my AoM and TSA to beat Lega, with his large EC.

This is using any tattoo other then the RBF.

But....

With the RBF look at what I need.

9 items total NW about 220M, of which 1/2 or more is my tattoo. And my AMF is pitifully low - 400k. I do NOT need my 204M MH, my 87M DBs, or my 30M ELB. This in addition to all the lesser items I do not need.

No other tattoo does that for me. That, young warrior, is power.

QBRanger November 4 2007 8:00 PM EST

Sorry, I was totally mistaken.

I can drop my NW to 205M and only 7 items and still win with a RBF.

Something that I certainly cannot do with a familiar/rune/other.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 5 2007 3:24 AM EST

You miss the point Ranger...

Cube November 5 2007 3:48 AM EST

Compare it to an Ice Familiar...

without the kill slot

but with evasion, with magic protection, without amf reduction of it's damage, without being seeked by a mageseeker, without being reduced by a mage shield

Oh and if you going to compare damage..
Level of Tattoo = Cone of Cold level
Cone of Cold level * .22 = Listed damage effect
Level of Tattoo *.2 = RoBf damage

So the IF does 10 pct more damage, but without any of the other reductions, and the RoBf Focuses all the damage on one minion.

Now in how many times would the IF be better than an RoBF? Maybe if you junctioned a HoC, but in general I'd say the RoBF is almost always much more effective.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 5 2007 5:03 AM EST

You miss that that * 0.22 if for a 5 minion spread.

Multiply that by 5 to get the average CoC damage for a single target...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 5 2007 5:04 AM EST

Actually, that's a nice comparison.

On average, an IF does 5 times *more* Damage than an equal sized RoBF...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 5 2007 5:09 AM EST

Sorry for the triple post.

At low levels, it's Damage and Evasion cannot compete with the NW of a Weapon at WA.

At low levels, its magic damage cannot negate a concentrated single minions DD.

The largest tattoo in the game does too much. Of all of it.

Instead of nerfing the Tattoo into oblivion at low level, by trying to balance the largest in the game, just reduce the Max Tattoo Level.

Then tinker with properties of the Tatoo, to make it less of such a no brainer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 5 2007 5:14 AM EST

Fourth!

You what this screams to me?

Not that the RoBF is 'overpowered' (boring, yes, but that's another topic).

But that Magic Damage reduction is too much. There's too much of it, and it all stacks together too nicely.

Cube November 5 2007 5:21 AM EST

Oh oops heh big mistake on my part

FailBoat[SG] November 14 2007 5:02 AM EST

Score / PR / MPR: 1,000,479 / 344,717 / 251,211

Heh... I'm allowed to vote the RBF as overpowered once I pay off my debt to HC right?

Khardin November 14 2007 7:02 AM EST

But Captain, I have a retired character that has
Score / PR / MPR: 956,760 / 329,684 / 329,684

And that's as a farm with no equipment whatsoever.
I probably could have fought with the character and increased that score..

I'm trying a RoBF character for the latter part of a NCB who loses to a large variety of strategies.. but that's been talked about enough already for me.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 14 2007 7:24 AM EST

yes I love attacking 500k mpr characters with a RoBF and seeing my MM doing no damage to him.
Not even my big SF or that 1mil MM trained, and all that on a 500k max tat. Sweet

Khardin November 14 2007 8:26 AM EST

Seems a masochistic approach to attack characters half your MPR that have a strategy which is very effective against EEEM teams. Over 3/4 of the teams XP has nothing to do with damage so we're really looking for a 250k single MM mage beating a 500k RoBF minion? I don't know when the minions might have been hired and what not.. but I do know that running a SFBM at my same MPR with no tattoo involved had my fight list consisting of opponents who gave me a higher challenge bonus and I could wear an RoE.

Talion November 14 2007 8:51 AM EST

"my fight list consisting of opponents who gave me a higher challenge bonus and I could wear an RoE."

I remember, I was one of those. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 9:50 AM EST

That's what I love about the RoBF. It gives a reason, a place, for single Minion teams.

And about time too.

Concentrate your XP, be it in a Single Mage, or stats on a Single Tank, and you are in a better possition to face RoBF teams.

Utilise the exisitng perks of multi minion teams, and suffer more versus them.

Did I say about time too?

QBRanger November 14 2007 9:57 AM EST

"Concentrate your XP, be it in a Single Mage, or stats on a Single Tank, and you are in a better position to face RoBF teams."

What a piece of bologna:

If a single minion team uses a DD spell, the AMF of the RBF minion as well as the RBF takes care of it.

If a single minion goes tank, without USD they will never hit an evasion minion in ranged (given the bonuses and the way they are applied), and will almost never hit in melee. Given the fact evasion gets a 3% boost per + via the AOF while tanks have no such method for getting such a boost to their dex or PTh to keep up. TOA you say, sure, then they take massive damage per round, constant, not negatable via AMF from the RBF.

So, PLEASE, do not try to argue that the RBF is a great all purpose tattoo.

The only way to fight a RBF, given a set MPR, is with another RBF

Talion November 14 2007 10:15 AM EST

"If a single minion team uses a DD spell, the AMF of the RBF minion as well as the RBF takes care of it."

I disagree. If the SFBM or the SCoCM uses a pair of NSC, he owns the RBF user big time. Even a decent paid of AG will do the trick.

Some single minion mages with lower MPR and NW kill my team before reaching the combat rounds. I could double my AMF, but then I would last 3 or 4 extra rounds and that is not enough to kill a well balanced single minion mage.

QBsutekh137 November 14 2007 10:26 AM EST

Really, Talion? Hm, I have two HUGE AGs and a HUGE CoI and a HUGE FB and a HUGE FF...

Yet igot noname is not on my fightlist, and my MPR is GREATER than his.

Does he have some specific mage-foiling aspect to his strategy? Well, AMF is about it... Everything else is the RoBF. Other teams have massive AMF and I can beat them. GL is right -- the RoBF is just another in a long line of magic reduction devices in this game.

Would I have to take igot out of my fightlist? No. But I draw enough that it isn't worth it.

So I am very, very curious to hear examples where similar-MPR teams, mage vs RoBF, where the mage gets the better of the RoBF... (it is a sincere curiosity -- I am out of touch with the intermediate and beginner levels of the CB landscape, and would like to learn more!)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 10:26 AM EST

"The only way to fight a RBF, given a set MPR, is with another RBF"

That's 'bologna'.

But I assume you have played a single RoBF user, and watched yourself never being beaten by anyone to know this?

Or are you only taking your 4 minion team use into account?

I know for a fact (even thos this is only at the low levels, but see my point above) that my RoBF signle minion was beaten squarly by Single (and some dual) CoC mages, some FB mages and Single (some Dual) Tanks/Archers with nice weapons.

Multi Minion Tanks, Mages and Familair based team I was eating for breakfast though. As the Tanks couldn't hit thorugh my Evasion, the small mages on 4 man teams couldn't break through the DD reduction and Familiars were just too weak.

But to clarify, I did say in my post above that you are in a better possition, not that you would automatically win...

QBsutekh137 November 14 2007 10:27 AM EST

Oh, and I would like to add that my team IS a single-minion mage in a lot of respects. Joe is HUGE compared to the other minions, because he was a single mage for a long, long time. So, Hubbell is like a single mage. But with other minions. And with a huge FF. And that still draws to igot.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 10:31 AM EST

Sute, you should have stayed single. ;)

You've got 800K more MPR than Dudemus, but you have 4 minions to his one.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 10:31 AM EST

LoL! Beaten to it! ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 10:33 AM EST

Sute, do you take a lot of FF from your Dual FBs?

I take it your DM cancels out his GA, so you only start to take damage form him in Melee (apart from AMF Backlash).

Talion November 14 2007 10:39 AM EST

S137, just check my fight list and see who defeats me.

Granted, I have a UC team, but notice how many rounds are needed by single minion or 2-minion mages to defeat me.

I don't know how big I will have to get in order to see the effects you describe, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Also, you cannot be compared to a single FB mage. Why? Because since you are a multi-minion FB-FF team, when Dudemus manages to survive until combat rounds with the help of his RBF, you are actually helping him defeat you. Convert from FB and an FF to CoC and an IF and you would destroy him.

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 10:42 AM EST

I get eaten alive by MM, CoC, big bloodlust tanks.

I'm at max tattoo of approx 600k, with an evasion of 111 after bonuses. I'm not unbeatable by any means. And it's nothing to do with me spreading my xp around either. In fact the addition of tank stats and the SoD actually gains me people near the top of my fightlist who I can't normally beat.

Sut,

Dude and you draw too much for your liking. So you can beat him then?


There are plenty of strats that can beat people twice the size. People simply don't realize it so dont' do it. My last strat was a four minion team with a ToA tank with SoD and ex shot. Chuck in a decent sized GA and I was good to go. When I closed the team down it was just over a million MPR with Vistek on my fightlist at just over 2 million MPR.

People expect MPR to be the deciding factor in a fight but it's fluid, everchanging. The RBF is one of those things that reduces MPR hugely thanks to the means of reduction it uses. Much like the ToE, EC, AMF, Evasion, Mage shield, Morg. All these things do the same. Are they all broken then?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 14 2007 11:17 AM EST

Score / PR / MPR: 1,643,352 / 696,148 / 493,457
nice score for a 500k mpr character.

QBRanger November 14 2007 11:46 AM EST

No Henk:

Single minion 500k character.

horseguy001 November 14 2007 11:46 AM EST

Like I said way back in this thread, the only part of the RoBF that needs a change is the magic resistance. It's WAY too high. Lower that substantially and RoBF users will have to invest more into HP or AMF to survive mages, which means a lower evasion to help tanks, all while still being a viable tattoo.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 14 2007 11:52 AM EST

It is the damage output that is the problem allowing all xp to be go into HP/evasion/EC/AMF.

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 11:54 AM EST

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've managed a score/MPR ratio of at least 3:1 with most of my characters, regardless of the strat or items. It's only once I get them up near the top 50 or so that the ratio slips. 3:1 score/mpr is easy to achieve.

As far as the RBF is concerned it may be defensively overpowered - who knows, not me anymore. But it certainly isn't offensively overpowered. Dude's doesn't fight 1 char in the top twenty regularly. (Correct me if I'm wrong Dude bud) but that's because it's a stalemate machine against most people, because it's offensive capabilities are too weak to take on those big chars.

And two similar sized MPR chars facing off both wearing RBF? Stalemate.

What that does suggest, from a purely unbiased viewpoint, is that it is broken. If it leads to so many stalemates then it needs to be weakened against something or fights need to be lengthened....



perhaps make MM it's weak point. Just to keep the mages happy for five minutes..;)

QBRanger November 14 2007 12:16 PM EST

Give dude a decent sized tattoo and ask again.

Or my tat.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 14 2007 12:20 PM EST

The offensive power needs to be lessened so it cannot be used as the only source of direct damage, reducing the defensive capabilities indirectly by reducing the xp you can put in amf/evasion etc

Talion November 14 2007 1:04 PM EST

What Rubberduck[T] said. I agree 100%.

QBOddBird November 14 2007 1:09 PM EST

Aye, me too! Rubberduck FTW!

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 1:17 PM EST

The offensive power really isn't very high. Lowering it makes it worthless again, except as an addition, which is what it was before, which made it useless if everyone remembers.

I'll take the side of the anti RBF brigade for a moment; what you need to do to the RBF to make it more level is make the damage reduceable by other counters other than AC/Protection/Endurance.

Of course those are pretty good counters that not enough people are using against it.

I'm not putting that much into AMF anyhow, the DD reduction is - like a tattoo version of a mage shield - good enough for me. And evasion...you only need to build that HUGE to take on the big PTH weapons at the top. At lower levels ...well mine is only about 600k in size - (87) in level. With bonuses from an average pair of EB, average pair of EG and a +10 AoF I get (111). That's enough to take out most tanks where I am.

Cut back it's offensive power if you like, it will still be unreduce-able by most things, I'm already twinning it with offensive tank power that wins a lot of my fights.

Make it so that it's affected by GA would have far more impact on me and my fights...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 14 2007 1:21 PM EST

only 600K! what is that as a % of your team?

QBsutekh137 November 14 2007 1:23 PM EST

My friendly fire is immaterial -- I started drawing with him when I was still MM and SF... Concentrated bolts of often-zero damage against him.

Yes, I suppose switching to CoC would give me igot -- and lose several other players... That's not the point. We are talking about averages here. Having more MPR should mean I don't need an ultra-specific strategy to beat someone smaller than me. If such specialty is required, that, to me, is the primary cause for concern. I mean, I could also just switch to an RoBF and be able to beat igot -- that only serves to support the points I am trying to make.

ANYWAY, I wasn't asking how to beat him (*sigh* reading comprehension appears to be a lost art)... All I was doing was asking for Talion to point out where MPR-equivalent mages were beating an equivalent RoBF team. I can assure you that MM and FB do not cut it. Yes, I beat igot most of the time, but still draw enough to state that if he were my equal size, I would bet he would start beating me. So that leaves CoC...which is silly. If the damage reduction were just a straight percentage instead of the ever-so-annoying cap/threshold/whateveryouwanttocallit system, using MM vs CoC would not matter. I lay down a LOT of damage in ranged. But because it is reduced ENTIRELY to zero on many shots, it ends up being useless.

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 1:33 PM EST

600k evasion is about 40% of my total XP. Yes, it's a lot more than a mage of the same size would get. But it's what I would be able to achieve with a ToA or a familiar tattoo. Ok, so I'm attempting a tank team here, but I could do more evasion with a ToA, as I'm spreading my xp into strength and dex.

Yes I know I don't have to do what I'm doing to be successful, but I wouldn't be half as high as I am without my tank aspect.

QBOddBird November 14 2007 1:36 PM EST

That would certainly be a cause for concern if you were a single mage, Sutekh, but you are not, and you have not been for quite some time. After all, the portion of your MPR that is mage is probably somewhat equivalent to the portion that is dudemus - the rest of it is largely wasted space against him.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 14 2007 1:44 PM EST

How do you know how high your score might be with that ST/DX in HP/AMF/evasion JW?

Talion November 14 2007 1:50 PM EST

"Yes, I suppose switching to CoC would give me igot -- and lose several other players... That's not the point."

Exactly. The point was that you would not draw had you remained a single minion FB mage with a familiar other than a FF. Which was the initial point being made and the one you were initially trying to contradict.

But I am actually arguing just for the sake of arguing.

I agree that the RBF is overpowered. If the damage it deals wasn't automatic, then it would be ok. However, having it to automatic damage makes it too powerful because of its defensive capabilities.

S137, if Dudemus need to invest extra XP into some offensive stat or needed 2 or 3 extra rounds to kill you, you would never stalemate. Yet the RBF strategy would still be very effective against most opponents.

I repeat: Give the RBF a CTH strictly dependent on offensive DX vs. defensive DX, independent from PTH. That would tone it down just enough to end this current craziness.

QBsutekh137 November 14 2007 2:04 PM EST

FYI, I don't stalemate... Here's the breakdown:

30 battles fought, Hubbell vs igot noname:
15 wins
7 losses
8 draws

Now, if I had stayed MM and just moved an enchanter in front, I would probably win or draw every time. My friendly fire does kill everyone except my main mage, so the RoBF smacks him regardless of stance in round 5.

I'm not trying to contradict anything. If you read my post, I was simply asking for examples where mages beat RoBF at similar levels. It is completely true that 25% of me does not help against igot (my DM -- his GA is not every big). But take 25% of my total PR away and I still have a higher total PR than igot.

So that leaves my lack of diversification as my problem... His AMF is super-mighty. My FF dies in ranged purely from AMF. Even though my tattoo is 3.4 million in level compared to his 1.9 million, my tattoo is not worth a whole lot in this particular scenario.

That goes back to the fact that the RoBF has it all: offense, defense, the ability to concentrate experience, and few retaliatory routes. One drawback is that it only affects its wearer (man it would suck if someone RoBF-protected could also wear a TSA!). Overall it is a great tattoo.

I was wanting examples of what and who beats RoBFs to analyze balance. On a case by case basis, one can always think of reasons why something works or doesn't work. However, if, on balance, the RoBF shines against a wide variety of foes at same or greater total PRs, then people take notice. And people seem to be taking some notice.

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 2:07 PM EST

My ST/DX aren't big enough to make a huge difference - maybe an extra (10) to my evasion; 200k to my HP or AMF. I might gain one or two to my fightlist.

Talion November 14 2007 2:11 PM EST

"Give dude a decent sized tattoo and ask again."

Yes, I agree, anyone over 2M MPR with a 'decent size' tattoo like yours will be able to win against more opponents. I don't care how many minions are used.

But weren't you arguing, not too long ago, that there aren't that many 'decent sized' tattoos out there?

The biggest characters have invested too much into their current strategies to retrain around or against an RoBF strategy. So unless they are over 3M MPR with the biggest and baddest equipment at their fingertips, it will take time before they can adapt to rising characters with new types of effective strategies.

I still think the RoBF is overpowered though.

QBOddBird November 14 2007 2:17 PM EST

"It is completely true that 25% of me does not help against igot (my DM -- his GA is not every big). But take 25% of my total PR away and I still have a higher total PR than igot."

Actually, 75% of your MPR (I'm counting total experience, PR matters little to me when it comes to mages) would be just under his. Nonetheless, we'll count PR.

75% of your PR is barely more than his, against a strategy using almost entirely AMF and HP and a tattoo that reduces DD damage as part of its effectiveness...what is to be expected?

I'm just pointing out that if you were a single mage, this would be a problem with someone your MPR/PR vs. someone of us. As it is, this doesn't concern me and I don't really see why it would you. It's just an example of specialization, as far as I can tell.

Talion November 14 2007 2:26 PM EST

"I was wanting examples of what and who beats RoBFs to analyze balance."

Again, check my fight list. Check JW's fight list.

Find our last victories against a single FB or CoC mages with similar MPR or PR. You will find none or very little. You will also notice that our fight lists do not include many, if any, single FB or CoC mages.

There is a very good reason for that.

Also, going after a RBF user with MM is not a good idea. That is just a reality. Anyways, single MM mages are like single xBow characters: not the best of strategies (I found that out the hard way with my last NCB).

FailBoat[SG] November 14 2007 5:14 PM EST

Check out my Fightlist.

I lose to The Confessor every once in a while since he got that named MH and an upgraded ELBow. That ELBow's + is higher than my evasion so thats the main reason he beats me but yeah, its possible to do.

Also, if you look over my fightlist, you'll see I avoid CoC/FB mages like the plague. Main reason is they kill me. I learned that early and I've learned to avoid them.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 14 2007 6:05 PM EST

Score / PR / MPR: 1,087,725 / 355,586 / 257,174
Nice score for a 250k mpr character, are you using the RoBF by any chance? And if so do you enjoy beating up mage teams way way higher then you?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 6:09 PM EST

Couple of things.

Johnny, how high was your guy again? I think it's the UC one. The team that was near/in the top 10 when you retired him?

Ranger, just out of curiosity, how large are the weapons you use compared to your WA? Are they at it or Just over it. Or significantly lower then it?

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 6:12 PM EST

Artful Dodger, UC single tank, score/mpr ratio of 3:1!!!

QBJohnnywas November 14 2007 6:14 PM EST

In fact remember I've only had 1 character hit a million MPR......biggest char previously was just under 700k MPR!

QBRanger November 14 2007 6:19 PM EST

My WA is over 330M I believe.

Now all my weapons are about 290M.

BUT... using a RBF, I can get my weapons to 67M total.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2007 6:52 PM EST

Cool! Thanks guys! :D

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] November 15 2007 3:15 AM EST

Here let me point something out yet again... Dude may not be able to beat me... but we will always stalemate... ST: 2,540,218 DX: 859,771 73 mil nw ToA... so about 25 mil more + on my weapons... my weapons are Voice of Reckoning [84x2811] (+108) and Gold-Plated Crossbow [4x2010] (+101)... and I still cant hit a single minion Robf strat...

Oh but guess what... the only people that can hit my evasion... Evasion 3,760,524 196 effect are Ranger, Edyit, and maybe Oxcha and Freed's MH. Guess it will be stalemate city when all you Robf single minions get up this high...

Change the way everything works together with an Robf please... I have devoted a minion just to specifically having Evasion just to keep up with Single minion robf chars. If the damage of an Robf is dropped then yeah wont do much... there would still be single minion robf strats... Now change the way that Amf and Robf stack... and you might have to devote more of that evasion exp into HP or Amf. Or change it so GA Effects the damage and then they will have to train more HP or a dm. Make it so that all this experience can't be concentrated so heavily.

Lumpy Koala November 15 2007 3:22 AM EST

Easiest way to solve this is to make the RBF's damage from active back to passive. You might even increase their damage output by another 20% to make up for the lost of always hit effect.

So what will this do? This will make all current strat of concentrated xp training not possible to get a clear win, at most is a draw / stalemate. They are forced to somehow dilute xp to use DD spell or wield a weapon.

Iluvatar[NK] November 15 2007 3:23 AM EST

I generally stalemate igot as well. It is important to realize the converse of the "RoBF-reduces-too-much-damage": RoBF's damage output is not very high.

Granted, I have PL, TSA, AC, ToE, Prot - every possible damage reduction form available against RoBF. I agree that RoBF is still somewhat overpowered, requiring little creativity for the ability to win/stale against almost anyone of equal/lower power, and a good number of those that are more powerful.

However, in changing the RoBF, I advise moderation. Do not break it and turn it into an unusable item. My personal view is just to lessen the DD reduction, so that RoBF users actually have to train some HP.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 15 2007 3:29 AM EST

Lower MTL.

Change the Magic reduction to be before everything else (including AMF), or change it to a percentage reduction, not a subtraction.

Then the counter to a RoBF isn't high NW weapons, but Magic.

QBJohnnywas November 15 2007 3:53 AM EST

Hmmph. Retrained following the little discussion earlier in the thread with RD. Moved my spare xp from st/dex to HP. Lost three people off my fightlist. Surprisingly to me some people I couldn't beat without the SoD a week ago I can beat now. So that was good.

Two of the people I lost were at the upper end and the SoD gave me some help with those obviously. The third person I lost off my fightlist was RD's char........lol.....

Talion November 15 2007 8:43 AM EST

"Surprisingly to me some people I couldn't beat without the SoD a week ago I can beat now."

I am not surprised. You don't need to worry about GA anymore. That is why.

QBJohnnywas November 15 2007 9:23 AM EST

One of them was GA, but the others were not. It seems like my RBF was too small to fully take on their DD spells. It provided a good defense and then my SoD and the damage did the killing between them. Once the defense against DD in those battles became total I didn't need the SoD to take out a pesky familiar anymore....

Talion November 15 2007 9:47 AM EST

That too... :)

th00p November 15 2007 5:09 PM EST

How long was it underpowered for, and considered to be a ridiculous joke of a tattoo?

Revenge of the RoBF?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 15 2007 7:28 PM EST

RoBF was worthless, so jon injected it with steroids, but the tat can't handle all that muscle and is now ready for self destruct.

Thanatos November 16 2007 11:26 AM EST

Fix it make it hit only if the opponent hits you might even increase damage.

RoBF is way overpowered.
I attacked Monkey Business to test how well I could do against it.
He had no Dx trained and lots of HP's with Protection.
His evasion + RoBF I could not touch him, but he hit every time.
Each of my character suffered a horrid burning death, CrowNoess burns from the flames surrounding Charlie (112630), and the damage kept increasing each round.
Sorry I wanted to rant.

The rest is for the number guys that like to figure out the percentages.

Monkey Business (Clan Beer Garden) defeated CrowNoessII after 23 rounds of combat
Physical
CrowNoessII Monkey Business
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 0 / 12 / 0 0 / 0 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 0 / 51 / 0 0 / 0 / 0

Magical
CrowNoessII Monkey Business
Enchantments Cast 20 1
DD Cast / Avg Damage 0 / 0 0 / 0

Minion XP HP ST DX AC DI Ammo
CrowNoess 274 -10,322 386,528 422,028 97 0 193,951
Dunk 275 -39,819 383,391 430,136 141 0 25,115
Eltin 279 -19,400 343,741 392,538 35 0 21,404
Aftkangit 276 -60,814 362,254 405,123 94 0 21,991

CrowNoess's blow was dodged by Charlie
Dunk swung wildly at Charlie
Eltin stumbled swinging at Charlie
Aftkangit swung wildly at Charlie
CrowNoess burns from the flames surrounding Charlie (112630)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002GVr">So the RBF is not overpowered?</a>