A few suggestions and runts... (in General)

OK, I had been thinking about this for quite a while and I think it's time for me to post my runts about UC. I don't care about your eternal battles between mage / tanks, but something needs to be done for UC.

Let's see, this is what I have now:
raw UC level : 1,800,000
raw UC : 109
modified UC level : 3,950,440
effective UC : 170
Average damage : 350k against non endurance & <100 AC enchanters

I know UC is a skill that deals damage while having freebies like evasion and high base PTH, thus it's more expensive to train. I believe at 3.9mil lvl, evasion can have much better effect. But it just doesn't equate with what a normal tank's effectiveness in every way. It's widely believed that UC strat is cheap because they don't need to invest in melee weap. I can now tell you that's a big load of crap. Now let me tell you why:

For 1.8mil level UC I can untrain for 24,595,271 XP. Let's say cost of 1 XP = average of 600 CBD. That in essence means it has an effective N/W of 24,595,271 x $600 = $14,757,162,600. Now that's for raw effect 109 UC, if I extrapolate to 170 UC on the same ratio, 3.9mil lvl of UC would be conservatively having N/W of $32,465,757,720.

Even if you give a discount of 50% to that amount because UC also trains evasion, it's still a huge number. And that much of N/W into a melee weapon is Godhood. And certainly won't deal just 350k of damage to an unprotected minion.

So here's some suggestions:
1) Grant 100% evasion bonus to UC effective lvl, remove evasion bonus from Gi
2) Gi's upgrade cost is lowered while raising base AC to 10. Every plus to Gi gives 0.1 UC
3) Grants 20% VB effect on UC damage. Yes, just 20% of what Vorpal Blade can do.
4) UC has some kind of curse endurance based on lvl trained. Like it can resist 5~10% UC level of enemy's offensive enchantment. So for my case I can resist 90k~180k of dispel / EC. Not much but at least something.
5) Give more armor choices for UC guys. Like a vampiric UC gauntlet suggested by Johnnywas or even remove -5 penalty on power shields would be helpful.

I don't expect the suggestions to be taken 100%, but I am just throwing out some ideas. Any one of them being considered will be a big help :)

"Let's say cost of 1 XP = average of 600 CBD."

That's a complete overestimation - it's like 1 XP = 3 CBD.

Fine :P I guess I mixed up purchasable BA cost with XP cost.

So 3 x 24,595,271 = $73,785,813. Give it a 50% discount is still a rather big weap. Especially when melee tanks can train Bloodlust or even evasion which doesn't need the discount :P

I've run a lot of UC, although not much recently. If you're using a ToA then you don't need half the items that exist, but if you're choosing not to, it's just as expensive as any other tank imo. Mostly because you need as much bonus giving gear as you can get and as highly upgraded as you can. And also, because the damage is a bit lower than a weapon tank you need (again only my opinion) some decent damage in ranged. Which means - guess what? More NW investment.

So some love would be good. I know there are a lot of items that benefit UC. But you try and run UC without Helms for instance and see how far you get...

I'm in perfect agreement with every lump and bump in LK's grunting runting post.


:)

Oh and yes yes yes to a VA glove for UC. ;)

D'OH! Where is Wilbur!? Liar.

1) Grant 100% evasion bonus to UC effective lvl, remove evasion bonus from Gi

then nobody will use evasion

Ok,

Let me get this right.

Your upset you get a +170 melee weapon for only xp cost?

Or are you upset about the damage you do?

I believe UC is fine where it is, BUT... The damage of course needs to be raised--Considerably.

Vs low AC/non TOE minions in melee you should be doing over 750k damage per hit.

So I would say there are 2 solutions.

1) Give UC complete VA ability once you reach level 100 in it. That is 50% off AC and TOE/protection.
OR
2) Double its damage.

Either one is needed.

I'll throw my idea in here again: Remove enchantment penalties from UC minion's equipped armor when UC raw level is trained higher than the enchantment's level.

I really like Rangers suggestion about adding abilities to UC at certain levels...

When you hit 25 you gain a 4% prot (non subject to dispell)
When you hit 50 you gain a 5% chance of a third dex based strike (subject to having enough of a dex gap)
When you hit 100 your blows ignore 25% of AC/End/Prot
When you hit 200 You gain a stunning blow...

The UV VA item should be a Helm JW...not gloves!

Helm Helm Helm - I keep forgetting! But give that built in VA only to UC..........heh heh

"Your upset you get a +170 melee weapon for only xp cost? "

Yes, I am upset because I trained 25% of my xp into a skill at 1.85mil MPR and all I get is just 170 PTH and that's by sacrificing the use of tattoo and / or other useful enchantments like AMF, in fear of dilution. Needless to say I am even more upset with the damage output. Against any minion with more than 200 AC , it's even more pitiful. And also the stupid 170 PTH can't do crap against those evasion dude, needless to say it's worse when everyone seems to be training it now. I am lucky to even land a successful hit against Ash's char which is only around 60% my MPR...

And yes, it's my choice to forfeit using tattoo. But using ROE is the only way to even get near 6/20 :P That's another stupid thing about CB, but that has been heavily discussed elsewhere, in here I will just complain about UC.

1) No - having one skill give the same effect as another skill + something extra seems silly.

2) There is already a lot of boosts available to UC skill, not sure that more is needed.

3) interesting, could be ok.

4) Dangerous linking something like that to UC level, perhaps to raw level but I'm not keen on the idea.

5) Yes, more UC items would be nice - not for boosting UC but something else such as VA etc.

maybe just making it 50% evasion?

"all I get is just 170 PTH"

That's not all, you get a crapload of Evasion...

Wait, you're upset because your free +170 weapon only does 750k per round ? As opposed to someone with weapons (I'll use me as an example) - My $30M named bow with +3 named arrows gives me about +120 and just to use that, I had to train 400k levels of archery and I'm still +50 behind you with no actual way to increase that (without going TOA - which you're welcome to as well).
Then I hit melee for the other 80% of the fight and I have to rely on my supposedly magical $15M VB which only gives me +81, and even if it does hit, maxes out at about 75k or damage.
Then let's consider your free evasion. Wow, wouldn't I just love some evasion on my tank so that every Tom, Dick and Lumpy Koala with an ax/ex-bow at +1 could actually miss me !
On the upside, I get to spend $10 per battle (that's about $6500 per day) just stocking ammo and could increase that to +30 like I heard someone does and then I too would have +170 PTH but only for a day because then I'd be broke.
So what other complaints do you have ?

Wait, you're upset because your free +170 weapon only does 750k per round ?

If you read the OP carefully, he maxes out at 350k to lightly armored/unarmored minions. Also, it's not "free". His exp cost to get that +170 is comparable to other peoples' NW cost for their +170.

As opposed to someone with weapons (I'll use me as an example) - My $30M named bow with +3 named arrows gives me about +120 and just to use that, I had to train 400k levels of archery and I'm still +50 behind you with no actual way to increase that (without going TOA - which you're welcome to as well).

Unfortunately, since he uses UC, he has to pick between ToA and Combat Gi. Archers have no comparable equipment choice - EB vs DB, EG vs BG, ELB vs MsK are choices, yes, but strategic - you don't sacrifice much one way or the other. Combat Gi/Elven Cloak tradeoff for ToA is pretty big.

Then I hit melee for the other 80% of the fight and I have to rely on my supposedly magical $15M VB which only gives me +81, and even if it does hit, maxes out at about 75k or damage.

I highly doubt it maxes out at 75k damage. 1.2mill str + 15mill VB will do much more than that. Plus, as an archer, you sacrifice melee power for ranged power. By your argument of "I am weak in melee", you open yourself to the obvious counter: NK's ranged damage is far less than your melee damage, further exacerbated by round order issues. [Ranged comes first, so if you kill him then, UC has no impact; you will always use your archery/bow, while he will sometimes die before using his skills.]

Then let's consider your free evasion. Wow, wouldn't I just love some evasion on my tank so that every Tom, Dick and Lumpy Koala with an ax/ex-bow at +1 could actually miss me !

The training efficiency of UC evasion vs straight evasion is quite low. Without the added perk of evasion that UC has, I doubt anyone would use it.

On the upside, I get to spend $10 per battle (that's about $6500 per day) just stocking ammo and could increase that to +30 like I heard someone does and then I too would have +170 PTH but only for a day because then I'd be broke.
His xbow costs him ammo money as well. With the potency of archer missile damage, I don't think you should be complaining. Archers have higher damage output than anything else in the game; that power comes at some cost.

Instead of an innate VA (which does sound like a nice additon), why not implement 'fist' weapons like Brass Kunckle Dusters (or sim). Which would increase damage, and some could have MH like innate VA. Plus it gives a Melee way to use all that otherwise wasted WA.

;)

I wonder if NK would get more Damage/Evasion out of splitting his XP into CoC and Evasion itself? If so, doesn't that mean there's something wrong?

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that UC has a lot of benefits. It seems that everyone wants everything for free these days.
Hmm, I made a mage, but I'm having trouble, so let's make a DD insta-kill spell with a 1% chance per AC of the opponent of killing them each round.
Oh, I went UC even though everyone advised me it's one of the hardest strats and you know what, it's hard, so give me every benefit that's available out there in addition to what I already get !

On the other hand, if it wasn't somehow under-powered, I'm sure we'd see more UC teams, so I don't disagree with giving it a boost.

Hey, you forgot the free round you get switching to melee against ranged weapon users. I still think it's a matter of picking your opponents just like with any other strat that doesn't use a RoBF.