Evasion still abusive (in General)

miteke [Superheros] November 24 2007 8:40 AM EST

I still think evasion is too abusive. With a decent evasion you can totally shut down all tanks and archers. At lower levels, if you have a decent NW pair of DBs and an AoI you can completely and utterly destroy any tank strats purely with NW.

Why can't we just have dex stuff affects dex and pth stuff affects pth. Thus those DBs would, at best, cancel the pth of the weapon and no more. If you have a good dex, you don't have to worry that an abusive evasion is going to reduce your chances to hit to 0%. You will at least have a small chance to hit. Heck, AMF never actually reduces a mages attack to 0!

I'm sick and tired of folks pumping the same (or less) amount of experience and a fraction of the NW into evasion and totally nullifying all dex based strats. It's becoming the new SMFB strat to have one minion train abusive evasion and the other train a spell or use the tattoo of balrog flame. It's sooo easy to shut down dex strats right now.


Lumpy Koala November 24 2007 9:11 AM EST

I have brought this up before. Shot down as usual by people who are so "protective" of their xp spent :P

Having evasion granting defensive dex is OK. But there should be a limit. Not training 1mil evasion also grants 1 mil dex. It's insane. So why do physical damage guys need to upgrade weap , train str and train dex when someone else can only spend xp on a "buy 1 free 1 skill" that nullifies all those efforts?

Some say it's needed to counter USD-induced tank strat that gives absurd damages, but since Jon allows USD invasion, people should know that USD investment into the game has bottomless potential and as time grows, they will just get more and more invincible. But that's only limited to like 10~20% active players. Other tanks that plays by using in-game currency only will never ever be effective against evasion strats, in the end, they gave up tanks strat and join the evasion parties. And so the vicious cycle goes on and on.

Heck, even tournaments had to have limits and rules, so that certain items/strat that's so unbalanced can't be used, like RoBF :P

horseguy001 November 24 2007 10:26 AM EST

I don't think evasion is still broken...it fits nicely into the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the game. Sure, my tank can't touch evasion minions (which is why I don't waste exp on dex) but my mage will wipe the floor with them. A 1 mil evasion is 1 mil less HP on the team, or a smaller AMF, etc.

When facing a mage every single experience point poured into evasion is worth nothing.

Lord Bob November 24 2007 12:19 PM EST

What would happen if we just allowed Dex to count for more than 133~166%? The way I'm looking at it, if we raised it to 166~199% then Evasion would have to be much larger to compensate for it.

QBRanger November 24 2007 12:28 PM EST

The reason evasion is so abusive is the massive damage archers do.

Fix ranged damage and then evasion. But evasion is needed, unfortunately, to counter the massive bow damage.

Kong Ming November 24 2007 12:29 PM EST

I think the WA also needs some fixing as well.

QBRanger November 24 2007 12:36 PM EST

The WA is a completely different issue. Let us try to stay on track this thread.

QBJohnnywas November 24 2007 1:02 PM EST

As much as I've defended ranged damage in the past, without it's potential for HUGE damage evasion wouldn't be necessary. I'm still a little surprised how little investment it's taken me to get my evasion to (112) which effectively wipes out most weapons in the game. There's still reasonably few weapons with a PTH that high.

So basically I agree with Ranger on this one. Tone down physical damage in ranged and you then you can tweak evasion. They come hand in hand unfortunately.

QBOddBird November 24 2007 1:06 PM EST

Agreed with Ranger. Tone down massive ranged damage and Evasion can be tweaked.

Soxjr November 24 2007 2:09 PM EST

I also see a problem here. I am one of the tanks in this game that doesn't use USD and am finding it more and more difficult to compete. It takes me on average 3 days to make enough money to add 1 + to my weapon and it's at +107 now. To compete with these massive evasions I need about 30 to 50 more +'s on my weapon which will take me a month or two. At that point the evasions will be so much higher that I'll need more to even hit them. I have 1.6 mil dx and a +107 bow and +40 to +45 from my ToA and I still never hit some of these guys and some are much lower in mpr than myself. I will never get the chance to add to my x of my weapon because all my cb goes to the + to even try to hit them. Seems the only way I will climb is if I add some USD to my bow. Which I will never do. So not sure if in the end I picked the right strat to go with.

Hyrule Castle November 24 2007 2:19 PM EST

yea, agreeing with ranger here... my +100 DB's do nothing to archers... cause if they do hit its for 1m ...and im dead X(

QBOddBird November 24 2007 2:22 PM EST

Sox - the problem you're seeing here is that physical Ranged damage from the ELB and Mageseeker is so all-or-nothing that either you hit and win or you miss and lose; therefore, mages will train their Evasion as much as they possibly can in an effort to be on the winning side of that all-or-nothing tossup.

Like Ranger said, reduce the crazy Ranged damage, and Evasion could be fixed.

Lord Bob November 24 2007 3:10 PM EST

I agree with fixing Ranged damage first.

Mikel November 24 2007 3:17 PM EST

Then fix the ToE as well. It's all a never ending circle.

QBRanger November 24 2007 3:43 PM EST

How do you propose to "fix" the TOE?

QBRanger November 24 2007 3:48 PM EST

Or better yet-

How many people use a TOE with massive AC vs those that use a massive evasion?

2 perhaps vs 100?

So because the AC/TOE is quite nice in reducing damage, we have x2000 ELB's doing over 3M damage per hit?

Then we have 2M evasion making most non USD weapons useless? And please do not compare my EC to that since I have over 6M raw levels in that spell vs 2M most evasion minions have doing almost the same function.

miteke [Superheros] November 24 2007 10:57 PM EST

Though I would tend to agree with the ranged damage comments, I still think that a simple change where X Evasion gives Y Dex and -Z pth, but where -Z will not eat into the dex advantage. Thus if you have a 2M dex with +100 weapon striking someone with a 1M evasion, you will probably lose all +100 to the evasion which will be well over -100 pth, but you will still get all your hits for the 2M dex vs. 1M dex. That would fix evasion. It will also fix uber DBs too, since a +150 pair of DBs being used against a +50 weapon basically wastes +100. It won't completely shut down all dex based opponents at lower levels - it will just shut down all pth. Dex is danged expensive and shouldn't be so easily upset.

QBOddBird November 24 2007 10:59 PM EST

"it will also fix uber DBs too, since a +150 pair of DBs being used against a +50 weapon basically wastes +100."

How so? That +100 eats into the DX-based chance to hit.

miteke [Superheros] November 25 2007 11:53 PM EST

That was the point of my post. Sorry if I did not explain myself well.

Change evasion so that the minus to hit DOESN'T eat into dex. Calculate plus to hit separately from dex to hit, with a minimum bonus of 0, and add the two.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 26 2007 8:15 AM EST

guys evasion is only usefull in the ranged rounds, as soon as you hit melee combat evasion is back to normal.
So if you want to hit evasion character, with probably 25 to 45% of their total exp spent into it, up your PTH.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2007 8:52 AM EST

I think the Dex reduction from 'Evasion' above wepaon PTH no longer needs to exist.

It was needed, before Evasion gave defensive Dexterity, as there was no way and non Tank could negate the potential two attacks a Tank would land from Dexterity.

Now we have the option for Evasion, and it providing defensive Dexterity, we can get rid of of reducing dex after PTH has been bought to zero.

Take having Evasion only. You can get a double increase in effective defensive dexterity. First from the Dex the skill provide, then additionally from the dex reduced by any Evasion Effect over your opponents PTH.

That's (in my mind) too much, and makes the Skill too good.

QBRanger November 26 2007 9:59 AM EST

"guys evasion is only usefull in the ranged rounds, as soon as you hit melee combat evasion is back to normal."

You try to hit Ash or Dude's character with a +120 weapon.

With my large EC, over 3.5M effect, I certainly cannot.

QBsutekh137 November 26 2007 10:01 AM EST

I agree with Ranger and Mikel.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 26 2007 10:13 AM EST

"Then we have 2M evasion making most non USD weapons useless?"

if removing usd weapons is also part of these fixes then i am all for them as well. if, however, we just fix ranged damage and remove evasion, then doesn't that leave usd pumped weapons as the "final solution" once again?

go back to non-linear damage upgrades or disallow usd in cb2 and rescale all net worths to a non-enhanced level and then and only then will removing some of the counters to those would make sense.

evasion does have many counters, it has no effect on dd or ga damage. it seems of late some are wanting to modify rock/paper/scissors to be rock/rock/rock where usd is the rock!

Lumpy Koala November 26 2007 10:28 AM EST

"evasion does have many counters, it has no effect on dd or ga damage. it seems of late some are wanting to modify rock/paper/scissors to be rock/rock/rock where usd is the rock! "

Your logic is all wrong, evasion is not at all a balancing factor in whatever rock/paper/scissors concept you have, because it simply forces average players with no paypal to eventually dump their tank strat and turn themselves into one of those evasion/DD zombies. And that's what you said yourself, the only counter is DD.

Whatever thing you tried to say about balancing is making everything off balance. You made USD investor to keep investing just to compete with evasion race. The side effects? We see "super duper intelligent" NUBs popping out every few months and "random" individuals leaving the game now and then. We also see forging which is supposed a tool to upgrade your own inventory becomes a CBD-USD trading machine, which to my surprise Jon actually gave some bonus to forging for Econ clans....

QBRanger November 26 2007 10:29 AM EST

Well considering the RBF lets an evasion character/minion not train any DD spell or use a weapon, GA is really not a counter to evasion. I do know know of any evasion minion that trains an attack aside from a RBF strategy anyway.

DD, however, is, but the RBF certainly makes DD spells less useful as AMF is trained in conjunction with evasion. Without the RBF, AMF certainly helps lower the DD spell damage. And on a multiminion team, the evasion minion is first or second so MM is not as useful.

One has to look at the game in 1 of 2 ways:

1) Let us make something to counter all the USD in the game. Unfortunately, this will really hurt those who do not use USD, making them even less powerful.

2) Try to forget about the USD in the game. Think of it as an aberration and make something to balance tanks and mages without figuring in the USD. The main problems with USD are massive DB's and massive weapons. The rest of the USD is really not skewing the game-much.

I believe the way evasion is now is looking at the game via method 1. This is unfortunate in that most people who play use a touch of USD for things like supporter items, to help others buy supportership etc...

QBsutekh137 November 26 2007 11:12 AM EST

LK, by "DD/Evasion zombies" do you mean like the "wall/damage reduction zombies"?

Yeah, zombies suck. And zombies are created by game elements that are binary.

I am NOT one of the people who needs to defend his experience investment in Evasion. I would love to see the on/off aspects of this game become less so. Only my fanatical desire to see power represented correctly is higher on my list.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] November 26 2007 12:53 PM EST

usd was a problem before evasion. i do agree with you lumpy though in that all of these things seem to be spiraling out of control with the runaway mpr we are seeing at the top. my whole point is if we remove any part of it without removing all of the overpowered items then we are worse off than currently.

ignoring usd is just about the most ridiculous balance idea i have ever heard...it is a part of the game and has to be figured in now. how about in response to the original poster i say just ignore evasion or to all of the robf rants just to ignore it. in a way though that might be the answer and is often the answer jon has given by his actions and design of the game. not all strategies will beat all others. remove those from your list and just "ignore" them because you can't win em all.

miteke [Superheros] November 27 2007 8:02 AM EST

I don't think this is so much an issue of USD vs. non-USD, but rather of balance. As far as I'm concerned, someone who has a 50M NW weapon SHOULD do better than someone with a 10M NW weapon or what's the point? Let NW play an important part of the game. It makes it more fun. The thing is, Evasion is far too affective for it's cost. By limiting the pth affects to cancelling pth instead of carrying the overkill into the dex battle, it makes the skill more reasonable. Right now it is the only skill you would dream of putting more than 25% of your characters experience into. It also makes the skill a NW killer instead of an everyone kiler, which fills a niche instead of being an uber-skill. Heck, even with that fix, I'm not sure it will be balanced since it may give too much defensive dex as well as the pth affects.

lostling November 27 2007 9:02 AM EST

put that NW into a melee weapon and you will see a difference -.-
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