NCB Stuff (BM, JW, Seft, FTW!) (in General)
January 3 2008 6:18 PM EST
Or one of them, I should say.
Now, to explain how I got on this, I as thinking about how to do my own NCB. But, no matter how many times I thought about it, it seemed less and less likely that a player using a nonbonus character could ever (yes, I'm including USD) catch up with Ranger, or any of the top 10.
Well, there are a variety of problems, but it basically comes down to a simple thing.
The top 25 uses one character. Everyone else must use TWO.
You build up the character you use to make money, for your NCB. But Ranger grows, makes more money, more exp, funneling it into Koy.
I'm going to use myself as an example, just because I have those numbers ready.
I raise at 0 to -5%. He raises at 0%. He wins more battles, and gets a higher clan bonus. But I don't have to grow faster than Koy, as is popular belief. I just have to grow fast enough to enter a certain threshold below him, and then I can put up on my PR and raise at a CONSTANT 0%, with no negatives.
So that seems great. But I'm not even sure if I'm growing at that rate...
I'm growing at 0 to -5 Challenge bonus... with, on average, a 10% clan bonus... So I'm averaging a 7% positive bonus.... Ranger averages 14% (I won't say 15, to avoid arguments). So he grows at a DEFINITE 7% bonus over me. Well, this really cuts into my margin.
I need to be at or over 60% of his MPR. Well, he grows 7% over me, and gets higher rewards, with less BA. Well, damn, his margin for error is much greater than mine... But that's fair, right? He plays more BA, he buys all. He earns it.
I will never, ever, be a higher player than Ranger. This I accept. I can't grow fast enough, and the NCB is a ridiculous choice. Why?
Well, people say save up, but this becomes a difficult thing quickly. I believe every player has two options if they want to go NCB. They can do what I do, which is vaguely anticipate having fun with it, but go in understanding they WILL NOT be able to topple the top players. Or you can do the best thing. Go RoE on your team, drop down as low as you can get, with as little equipment (I'm talking tank with nothing but an ELB). Get your 100% bonus, 8-10 BA per refresh, and pump your clan bonus. In this way, you can get massive CASH. But your team and tat will not develop. But you will get cash for the NCB at the highest possible rate. Retraining periodically keeps you where you want to be...
So where does this leave me? Happy. I like my character. I wish my mage was a bit bigger... But still.
I'll start the NCB, and play my own game. I want to make a huge mage, I want a familiar, and I don't wanna use USD, or evasion. I considering them the same evil ^.^
So, why the thread? To point out how impossible it is to try and compete. He raises, NCB BA cost rises higher and higher, you have to spend more time on one character to get the money to NCB, and Ranger raises, so your initial estimates of how much you need are wrong the 3rd day of NCB. Changes come along, and your NCB lacks the flexibility to change with them.
So play. Play the game. The more sage players have been saying it for a long, long time now. If the game is unfair in your mind, make your own game. Play by your rules. Awhhh. You can't farm Ranger? Try and find out how many times it takes you TO beat him. 5? Go for 4. 9? Go for 8. Can't beat him at all? Farm another member of BR. I did that. And I enjoyed the game while I did. And was happy as hell when he farmed me back.
Cheers, Johnnywas, BM, Sefton. You 3 have been saying what I just said forever. I just wanted to say how I got to the same place. (At least, I THINK you've been saying that ;P)
"To point out how impossible it is to try and compete."
"So play. Play the game."
So why play CB2? The reason for CB2 was so that people COULD compete. You are basically saying that CB2 is a failed experiment.
January 3 2008 6:28 PM EST
Hmm. Failed? No. A game entertains. I feel entertained. I failed to beat Ranger. That is not the game's failure. It is my own.
I must say... To get to the 6/10 BA regen... You don't have to BEAT Ranger... merely play 70% of how well he plays... Seems to me, that's pretty unfair to him.... Everyone is getting ripped here. But I'm under the influence of a chocolate muffin, so maybe I'm just insane... But I don't think so.... I think I got it right this time.
*whistles and goes back to drawing up his character for this "failed" game*
January 3 2008 6:48 PM EST
Lol, I'm not entirely sure I've said it, but certainly I've been playing my own game since I joined CB. Going after the top slot certainly isn't the only game in town.
Doing better than you did the last time, or getting really high on game rewards only, or through only owning a couple of items or, or or...
CB2 is sort of successful - after all I've just passed my 3 year CB2 birthday, so it's doing something right. But I guess for some of us there is a feeling that the top slot is an illusion, unless Ranger quits. But then there's the other BR chars, they're all pretty unbeatable judging by the clan points they are (not) losing.
The trick is, as in RL, to not listen to other people about what success means. Define it for yourself. It's definitely my way of doing things. :)
January 3 2008 6:51 PM EST
BTW, thanks for including me with 2 of my all time CB heroes. Top people!
January 3 2008 6:52 PM EST
January 3 2008 6:59 PM EST
It just depends on what your goals are in the game. For some, it is upper-level competition...but like you've said, that is basically a dead-end road.
January 3 2008 7:08 PM EST
lol 1stly that happens in all games... 2ndly it happens in real life too :)
January 3 2008 7:56 PM EST
There are a lot of people who could speak with more knowledge than me about the inner workings of this game. I'd like to share my experience. When I first started CB I came as a complete noob. I really had no idea what I was doing. I think about a half dozen people tried to give me advice, but I wanted to be stubborn. After about two weeks I hit a wall and started to take peoples suggestions. The hints they gave me worked out great. I saw rapid growth in my character. I was still a noob. I didn't realize what it would take to overcome Ranger and set that as my goal.
When it became apparent to me that I would never catch Ranger (due to other RL commitments more so than game mechanics) I lost interest in the game. I think that many NUBs face that same dilemma. Yes, it is addicting seeing your character grow in leaps and bounds. Its absolutely wonderful. That stops, though. With Ranger being (almost?) unattainable I could see how a new player could become discouraged, because it happened to me.
Before anyone jumps on my case let me say this: There are many more accomplished "theoryblenders" than me. I am just trying to add what I can to the dialog. That said, here goes.
Jen's list of possible improvements.
1) Reduce the NUB bonus AND make it longer. This is an idea original to me. I think it might be Rangers. Possibly increase it to start out, maybe 300%, and then gradually (over the first month), decrease it to around 160-170% for the remainder.
2) A separate pool of "money" which NUBs earn. Make NUB money bonus 0, but give them a secondary income. NUBdollars, if you will. NUBdollars can be spent on upgrading gear OR put into a tattoo. The items upgraded can not have been in existence for longer than a half month prior to the account being created.
When I started writing this post I really thought I had more ideas. Turns out I do not.
January 3 2008 7:57 PM EST
Oops. That should read as "this is NOT an idea original to me".
January 3 2008 8:50 PM EST
NUB dollars. Awesome.
January 3 2008 9:06 PM EST
Just 1 [One] Question:
WHY IS EVERYONE SO OBSESSED WITH RANGER?!?
OK, so whatever NCB you have, you will never ever beat him [except once in a blue moon with devious tank means], or the top ten for that matter; but what of the rest of the guys who've been slogging lots of years whom you'll be farming within the first couple of months of your NCB?
Surely, this power rise afforded by the NCB does count for at least some thing.
January 3 2008 9:42 PM EST
"play my own game"
You got that right hahaha.... I still consider my char to be the most nonsensical and unique :P No matter how bad it works
January 3 2008 10:09 PM EST
My reputation is my success. The forums, chat... Well, basically the CB community as a whole... I love the game, but actual gameplay is secondary, imo.
As far as my secondary priority, I like being high on some sort of "top" list. Whether it be a top char of some sort, clan participant, or even (recently) the forging list. I especially enjoy messing with the ranks a bit. Beating those that "can't be beaten" and getting in on some of the high level competition, and glory involved. I also like to try things differently than I've seen them done before... Different? Maybe. Better? I think so.
Lastly, I set mini-goals for myself all the time... That's the main reason I've spent about 85% of my time in CB in debt... my amount owed is a goal in and of itself, and the loan/pp usually helped me acheive another goal I had set.
It *is* possible to compete, it is even possible to take the top (All due respect to Ranger, I think jayuu would be king of the hill right now had he not quit...). It just takes a lot of effort, and with his current lead, it will take a lot of time as well. Not time as in 4-6 months, but likely at least a year or two... Those who want to get all uppity and disruptive because they can't be number one next week will eventually figure this out. When they do, they will come to terms with it, or uppity and leavvity... If CB becomes "work", it's about time to go anyway...
To those who don't, enjoy the game for what it is, or save yourself a lot of time, effort, trouble, stress, and in some cases money by quitting.
To those that do enjoy the game, why are you all quitting?!?! :P
Just my fiftieth of a buck. Blend on! ^_^
this problem can be easily solved by giving the n*b a higher %.
At present the ncb is set so you will reach 95% of the top mpr. But as GW stated the top mpr grows fast so the real bonus is roughly between 85 and 90%. (if you use up every BA)
Do why not raise the n*b % maybe to 100%? or even 105%? Give the players that option so the real bonus is between 100 and 90%?
January 4 2008 6:16 AM EST
Ladies and gentleman, let's not forget the margin of error here!
I mean, it takes 100 BA to get out of that absolutely nightmarish vacuum of CB in around 1000 MPR and lower. There will reach a time when that's a HUGE thing to miss!
If Ranger misses a refresh? Big whoop. If a NUB misses a refresh. Freaking hell! That's a HUGE loss. 10 BA, with a 200% bonus!? OMG, 1337 |-|@Xx0|'$!!!!!!11One!!!! If Ranger wants to go on vacation for a week, that's his choice. He drops. If a NUB misses a week, THEY'RE SCREWED. Literally. They lose any and all chance of ever getting up there now. You're talking, what? 200000 MPR!? That's COMPLETELY unreasonable. I mean... In comparison...
You're 15. First day you ever get to drive the car alone. And, somehow, you appear on the freaking autbon in a ferrari and are told to haul ass, or never beat the guy already 500 miles ahead. Granted, you got 5 times the horsepower, but if you miss the pedal for a moment, you lose! COngrats!
January 4 2008 6:40 AM EST
But a NUB only has to do it for 4 months. In the beginning of the game, most of the top players were doing it for over 2 years.
Small price to pay to get to the top. Or near it.
Please do not forget that.
January 4 2008 6:45 AM EST
I do not mean to belittle your accomplishments OR make it easy on the NUB. But at the same time, why don't we just GIVE UP on trying to say the NUB is the uber fairness.. It's not. Drop it. Not the NUB, just the illusion that if fixes everything. It doesn't. Not even a litte.
"You're 15. First day you ever get to drive the car alone."
Where do you live?
"Hmm. Failed? No. A game entertains. I feel entertained. I failed to beat Ranger. That is not the game's failure. It is my own."
You misunderstand me. CB2 exists so that people *CAN* attain the top position, without waiting for the current top player to retire. Whether or not *YOU* want to do this matters not. Out of the 400 active players a week, I am sure that there are at least _some_ that would like to accomplish this. In CB1, this was impossible, regardless of USD spent or BA burned. In CB2, this is _supposed_ to be possible. In your post, you say:
"So, why the thread? To point out how impossible it is to try and compete."
If it really is impossible for anyone to take the #1 position, then CB2 is failed and there is no difference between it and a CB1 with more items. This is totally regardless of your intentions with the game, or Sefton's, or JW's, or anyone else's. This game exists so that it can be POSSIBLE to take #1. You are saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE.
In all honesty, I'm not sure whether I think it's possible or not yet. The way that rewards increase based on MPR make me wonder. I'm afraid to do the math, though I probably could.
CB could use a version of the continuous 'bonus' Ranger and I have proposed in the past.
Unless we all really want CB to stay as not a strategy game, but rather an endurance test.
Somebody please explain why it is important for a new player to be able to reach the top spot in a few months? If thats what you really want then why not have a ladder season. Say a 4-6 month long season that only NCB and NUB are eligable for. Kind of like a tourny but you can trade and be farmed by anyone. Each 4-6 months it starts over crowning a winner that goes into a hall of fame list.
January 4 2008 6:56 AM EST
*shrugs* Jon tried. If Ranger was still 2 mil MPR, current system would work. But he keeps growing. And growing. Chaos theory ^.^
"Somebody please explain why it is important for a new player to be able to reach the top spot in a few months?"
T doesn't have to be. It's just the current mehod to allow anyone to be able to reach the top spot.
A continuous bonus for the life of a character, based on the current size of the Top spot would do the same thing.
And not condense it all into 4 months.
January 4 2008 8:56 AM EST
I don't think there's any argument with making the NUB bonus longer. Sure 4 months was alright the game was 1 year old, but now it's 3 years old and 4 months is too little. 8 months would be nice, who knows it could keep new players here longer. Some would say that 4 months is too little to get to know our community.
January 4 2008 9:10 AM EST
just bring back cb1 and everything will be alright... :)
January 4 2008 9:17 AM EST
" why don't we just GIVE UP on trying to say the NUB is the uber fairness.. It's not"
Nope... Not even a little. It's not fair at all for the players who've been around forever to lose their spot to a guy that's only been playing a couple months... I've been saying this since I found out what a NUB did (in my first week), while i had a NUB, and i will continue to say it. I recognize it's importance, along with the NCB, and would not like to see either gone. But I will never see them as fair ^_^
"In CB1, this was impossible, regardless of USD spent or BA burned."
Scrabaluminous says he did it... Apparently didn't last long, but was still done... :P
January 4 2008 9:22 AM EST
I think he means to catch up, Sut was pretty much there from the start.
I think its possible for a N*B to make it to top 10. I have over a month left and am slowly shaking people from the top 20. Plus I still have 2 more minions on the way.
I have also missed a good chunk of BA over the past couple of weeks, so its entirely possible for some one who is willing to go the distance. As far as overtaking the top spot, I don't think thats possible, but making top 10, for sure top 20, is entirely possible.
The main reason it's virtually impossible to beat Ranger is, well... Ranger.
His CB2 motivation is to do whatever he can to remain Ranger, which means #1, and he's really very good at it, and has been consistently good at it for a very long time, with only one short hiatus...
As long as Ranger's motivation remains constant and consistent, that is the wall anyone who even comes close will hit - Ranger wishes to remain Ranger - he will get bigger, and make adjustments to thwart you, if he has too.
That doesn't mean that Jon hasn't given us all the tools to try.
Whatever your motivation is, GW is right - have fun with it. It's a game and a chat community, not a career, or an education, or a business (except for Jon, of course :P).
"It's not fair at all for the players who've been around forever to lose their spot to a guy that's only been playing a couple months..."
It's also not fair for anew player starting three years after CB2's creation to have absolutly no way to catch up to the current players.
Why should they even bother, if they're never going to be competitive?
Now, a continuous 'bonus' would solve this problem entirely. ;)
January 4 2008 4:48 PM EST
A continuous bonus, changing every cache flush is the simplest and fairest solution that exists.
Gives new players a chance and older players the exact same one.
Some can say "well you had your chance and blew it". To that I say "poppycock". Real Life issues come into play and one cannot play continuously for close to 3 years.
If someone wants to take some time off, great. Get recharged and come back. A bonus will be waiting for you. It will not help quickly, but over time you can certainly get into the top ranks. With long term dedication. Not this 4 month crap we are seeing now.
January 4 2008 5:03 PM EST
I still agree with that idea...I think it would be the best solution. Oh well.
"The main reason it's virtually impossible to beat Ranger is, well... Ranger. "
Virtually impossible is fine. By definition, that means that there is a possibility, it's just unlikely. There lies a problem when there is zero possibility of overtaking the #1 position.
Ignore score for a minute. Just try to take over the #1 MPR position. It requires gaining MPR at a faster rate than those above you. That is fundamentally contrary to the basic building blocks of the rewards system (and most of the systems at place here). In this game, the bigger you are, the faster you grow. That right there is why it is impossible to catch up.
This whole idea about a constant bonus is a lot like Evasion / TOA. It's treating the symptom and not the underlying problem.
NS, since I started playing I've been advocating CB scale like just about every other RPG.
The best items should not be the cheapest to upgrade, for example.
It should get harder to level off those below you, making the top spot the hardest place to level and grow. This could possiblt be achieved by totally removing the fight down exemption, but could possibly lead to stagnation.
In the constraints of CB2 as it is now, a continuous bonus is the best solution.
Other than starting CB3 (with the inherant changes to growth mentioned above) of course. ;)
January 4 2008 5:57 PM EST
With a continuous bonus, those lower then Koy will get larger rewards. In conjunction with this, of course, a solution to the problem in the clan point thread needs to be enacted.
January 4 2008 6:22 PM EST
I really like your idea Ranger, one shouldn't be able to reach the top spot in only four months imo. So a bonus for _everyone_ smaller then koy, but only those burning at least the same amount of BA as Ranger does should be able to get to his MPR. This sounds kinda obvious (don't you think?). So why doesn't it work this way?
(sorry if thisn't really make sens but I'm really tired and kinda drunk right now :-P)
I just read this thread, and now I feel completely depressed.
But, very interesting discussions you guys are having ;)
This thread is closed to new posts.
However, you are welcome to reference it
from a new thread; link this with the html
<a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002JbT">NCB Stuff (BM, JW, Seft, FTW!)</a>