BGs boosting ranged damage too much? (in General)


iBananco [Blue Army] January 16 2008 8:49 AM EST

Test: My character vs. janx, which has 3 minions at 0 AC, 20 ST, 5 Protection.
My ST: 1,622,229
My bow: [6x3750]
My ammo: [8x1]

With +12 EGs:
558583
463816
485763
470232
637122
621324
601956
647151
670447
437490
502379
531561
490484
599123
607763
Mean: 555013

With named +13 BGs:
917125
841075
1060715
946183
1177397
1131650
1232698
1018460
1339735
970002
1257304
874202
1206941
1263952
1232594
Mean: 1098002

BG Mean/EG Mean: 1.978. Should be closer to 1.42.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 16 2008 10:11 AM EST

i am not sure i understand it all correctly, but it should be boosting damage around 39% when in reality it is closer to 100% damage increase?

Talion January 16 2008 10:24 AM EST

Possible explanation...

If janx completely nullifies your DX, maybe you kill the minion with 551 DX faster (with a single hit), and then you dish out more damage on the other minions with only 20 DX by scoring multiple hits on them.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 16 2008 10:25 AM EST

i forgot to take the naming into account. still it seems off.

Ulord[NK] January 16 2008 10:50 AM EST

Do some testing on an opponent without EC?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 16 2008 11:55 AM EST

you guys actually think EC has something to do with a whopping 100% increase of damage with only +13 bg's?????
Those gloves are the reason why ranged is so damn overpowered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And that is why some NEED evasion to combat this overpowerednes!!!!!!!!!

Ulord[NK] January 16 2008 12:02 PM EST

No, that's not what I meant henk. The data seem to be strange. Damage without BG seems really low without knowing how much str was taken away by EC. Also, it is entirely possible that EC is the reason for the discrepancy. So it is a good idea to isolate the interfering variables and run some straight test. If that turns out to be normal, then we should look at how EC is affecting the damage change of BG.

Do not bring your vested interest into a discussion like this. Accurate data from well setup experiments will speak for itself.

AdminNightStrike January 16 2008 12:14 PM EST

Maybe the BGs aren't affecting damage directly, but some other variable that gets compiled up into the whole damage equation.

Either way, that's a large increase.

Colonel Custard January 16 2008 12:26 PM EST

"Also, it is entirely possible that EC is the reason for the discrepancy." It shouldn't be. He fought the same opponent the whole time, and therefore had his ST reduced by the exact same amount each time. It was less than 1.6 mil, but it was the same number. His DX changed, due to the boost from the EBs no longer being there, but the number of times he hits doesn't affect how hard he hits, only damage per round.

This does seem off, though.

Hyrule Castle January 16 2008 12:50 PM EST

go get me some gloves that double effectiveness of my spells.........

i wanna see how i do then ^.^

Ulord[NK] January 16 2008 1:49 PM EST

Well here is a possible theory that explain what I said earlier about EC:

What if BG increases damage before EC is applied? Then EC reduces damage based on strength reduced. This would lead to the phenomenon that we see. Again, there is no point arguing about this. You have a pair of BG? Are you a tank? If yes, go and run some test with and without EC.

TheHatchetman January 16 2008 3:12 PM EST

"Those gloves are the reason why ranged is so damn overpowered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And that is why some NEED evasion to combat this overpowerednes!!!!!!!!!"

these sentences seem a bit overpowered... :P

TheHatchetman January 16 2008 3:18 PM EST

"go get me some gloves that double effectiveness of my spells.........

i wanna see how i do then ^.^"

Merlin's Gloves... base of 3, and enchantments give no AC. increases damage of DD in ranged rounds by 3% per +, then the minion needs to rest for the remainder of the battle.

Talion January 16 2008 3:39 PM EST

"...then the minion needs to rest for the remainder of the battle."

I can see the price of the FF rising already.

QBJohnnywas January 16 2008 4:28 PM EST

Belegs? Pah! +14 Gloves, 1.2 million strength and an X3275 SoD and I hit an average of 800k per (main strike) with maybe 200k on the splash.

Maybe I should swap for an ELB....

iBananco [Blue Army] January 16 2008 4:43 PM EST

Vs. completely base 4 minion team Hide and no confounding variables:
With +12 EGs:
877765
1239969
1318076
935441
899481
1209943
1351506
1346344
1438538
1193567
1396652
1326263
1086236
1152618
1253119
865787
938525
1270552
1312526
1426098
Mean: 1191950

With named +13 BGs:
2110053
1919970
2829460
2416331
2013381
2727085
2410631
2284551
2686076
2836935
2897199
1900376
2021337
2085985
2624009
1842200
2041365
2874659
1956600
2759210
2207378
Mean: 2354514

BG Mean/EG Mean: 1.975

Ulord[NK] January 16 2008 4:54 PM EST

Thanks JS. That is what I call broken :/.

To JS: don't forget you can learn the oh so wonderful evasion :). I think that's a reasonable price to pay.

TheHatchetman January 16 2008 5:34 PM EST

"I can see the price of the FF rising already."

Good point... idk... i was just thinking of a way to superboost magic fairly :P then i thought about Merlin's superboosted magic, and remembered he had to rest after he used it :P

iBananco [Blue Army] January 16 2008 5:59 PM EST

Instead of fixing an overpowered item by making an equally overpowered item, how about we just fix the BGs?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 16 2008 7:02 PM EST

And here we have one of the overpowered thing evasion calls for, a whopping 100% damage increase with +13 gloves

iBananco [Blue Army] January 16 2008 10:45 PM EST

Thank you, you've already made it quite clear that you think 100% damage increase is overpowered. I highly doubt anybody here thinks otherwise. This is why I proposed a FIX to BGs.

iBananco [Blue Army] January 19 2008 12:27 AM EST

vs. Hide:

+10 BG:
1487213
2057840
2042534
1975659
2398804
2038531
2385199
2028965
1723508
2294314
2046229
2122255
1535614
1746786
2381849
1815459
2007066
2209151
2393953
1859244
1513573
2290917
Mean: 2,016,121

+12 EG:
986570
946728
1238856
1190918
1431975
1334460
936179
1233446
988108
1039866
1386013
954144
1180040
1240031
1296615
1270388
1193821
1058446
1388819
1021481
1059953
1179865
Mean: 1,161,669

BG Mean/EG Mean: 1.736, which is approximately 7%/+.

Mikel January 19 2008 2:36 AM EST

ST: 4,661,538
Elb Named: 6x7100
Arrows Named 8x1

With BG's +13
vs 64 AC vs 218 AC
3,926,278 2,613,704

With EG's +14
vs 64 AC vs 218 AC
1,985,300 1,151,938

Difference of:
1,940,977 1,461,765
So it does appear to be just less than Double.

Weirdest thing to note:
vs Evasion minions, I almost always hit in Round 1 with the BG's on. With the EG's on, I usually missed in Round 1.
My avg Fight vs Conundrum with BG's on is 2.28 Rounds
My avg Fight vs Conundrum with EG's on is 3.5 Rounds

I had noticed this before, and mentioned it a while back to Ranger and a couple of other players in the game.

I did hit more times with the EG's on, which makes sense.

Has anyone tried with a smaller pair of BG's?

QBRanger January 19 2008 9:06 AM EST

Conundrum has a TOE.

That will skew the BG's damage as the uncapped portion will be taken at 100%.

00 January 19 2008 9:33 AM EST

Why don't you just use them? You use the RoBF, which you have complained to be overpowered in the past.

QBJohnnywas January 19 2008 9:35 AM EST

Belegs. Just Do It.

Mikel January 20 2008 3:44 PM EST

vs Failure (whom has a base EC (20), and no ToE)
ST: 4,670,245
Elb Named: 6x7100
Arrows Named 8x1

With BG's +13
VS 127 AC VS 82 AC
4,085,419 4,363,520

With No gloves
VS 127 AC VS 82 AC
2,118,732 2,275,484

With EG's +14
VS 127 AC VS 82 AC
1,932,201 2,239,985

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 20 2008 9:29 PM EST

i have never been a good cb theorist, so i have a question for those of you who are. if this is truly broken, as it certainly appears to be, will fixing it be the ranged balancing we seem to need or is ranged still out of whack even without beleg's?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] January 20 2008 9:41 PM EST

IMHO even with a BG fix Mikel will still be doing around 3 mil a hit or more... thats still more than enough to kill almost any minion in one hit.

Mikel January 20 2008 10:07 PM EST

Fixing the BG's part would make it better.
Just remember not all tanks can do as much damage as I can.
My ST and Elb are quite bigger than most out there.
So we'd have to see how fixing it makes it for the mid-lower levels.

When the change was first done, I did test it and it worked just fine. 3% for every +. I have no idea when it "broke. Possibly around the time Evasion was introduced.

iBananco [Blue Army] January 20 2008 11:30 PM EST

Mikel DOES have $55,365,800 in the x of his bow alone. I'm taking upwards of 2M damage from quite a few CoCs near my PR; why aren't you calling those overpowered?

AdminJonathan February 22 2008 3:36 PM EST

You're right, the Beleg bonus was getting applied in two places, cumulatively. Fixed.
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