More items please (in General)
January 23 2008 8:54 AM EST
There has been a lot of tying to the affect "NERF evasion it pwns my 90 mil NW weapon". The truth is I am not sure evasion is the problem. Elven gear seems to be more of the culprit, along with the RoBF. I am receiving a 79% bonus to my evasion for a measly $7,870,054. So for about 8 mil I can negate a + 145 weapon. Most weapons that are +145 will never hit my minion and cost incredibly more then $7,870,054. I am not sure if elven gear at its inception was thought to start the great evasion race, but it has.
A possible solution could be to add gear to the game that boosts + hit to weapons. If a Boots of surefootedness, gloves of accuracy, helm of accuracy were added, it would do a few things. First it would make people decide what is more important--BG or plus hit. An early attack round or plus hit.
I will always be a proponent of adding weapon for mages and enchanters. I have outlined a few in other threads.
The more items there are the more strats there can be. Right now there is not enough variety in items. If more items were added it would 1) drop the price of many items already in the game. 2) lead the way to more strats. 3) help balance the game through itemization. 4) Create more overall depth of game play.
I see no reason why 15 or so new items cannot be added to the game. Plus I really want a mage equivalent to the VB.
Decay is the mage's equivalent to the VB. Or at least pretty close in that it ignores all armor.
January 23 2008 9:25 AM EST
If someone has any AMF decay will be at (1.0) and the only portion that will get through will be the % of NCS you have. Not a lot.
January 23 2008 9:27 AM EST
You can train more then base Decay you know.
PTH items would make Evasion even more "needed" for a strat as non evasion minion, even tanks, would like always get double or triple hitted.
January 23 2008 9:30 AM EST
Please do not forget the AoF which gives 3% per plus to skills/evasion.
Initially it was 2% but the code made it 3%. This was before evasion was so powerful. Perhaps it is time to put the AoF back to 2% bonus per plus.
But add all the elven gear and AoF together and for less then 10M, one can have over 100% bonus to evasion/skills.
January 23 2008 9:43 AM EST
Even if ranged does get + hit items it will be at a cost of other armor. Hopefully tuning down the damage some. Plus I can alway add more NW to my evasion gear. A person on my fight list raised there weapons + hit. I went to the BS and added 1 to my AOF. Guess who is still on my fight list.
January 23 2008 9:44 AM EST
"So for about 8 mil I can negate a + 145 weapon"
No, you need to already spend a decent amount of exp first to significantly increase it through that 8 mil of items. So it's not just taking 8 mil, it's taking quite a bit of exp.
January 23 2008 9:45 AM EST
And they need to spend XP on EC, or it will not matter at all.
You can get over 100% bonus to both DEX and STR as well. If this isn't a problem for STR, DEX or other Skills, but it a problem with Evasion, doesn't that imply the problem is with Evasion itself, and not the items that grant the bonuses?
uhm ranger your also forgetting that EO benefit from that 3%, you also get more EC on the guy wearing one.
January 23 2008 10:19 AM EST
No because evasion directly counteracts the NW of items, and does so at a fraction of the cost. Similarly, a MgS counter acts the XP spent on DD at a fraction of the cost. At present it easier to get items that boost evasion, however, that does not mean that new items cannot be introduced to counter act both evasion and the MgS.
"No because evasion directly counteracts the NW of items, and does so at a fraction of the cost"
How do you cost the NW of Evasions XP?
"If this isn't a problem for STR, DEX or other Skills, but it a problem with Evasion, doesn't that imply the problem is with Evasion itself, and not the items that grant the bonuses?"
Count it. Two points.
January 23 2008 10:35 AM EST
There are multiple ways to figure the cost of XP, one is by the amount of PR an item gives in comparison to the total NW of the item. Or the amount of PR an item gives in comparison to the amount it would take to do the same increase with MPR.
Inherently, in the case of evasion, the opponents EC will need to be larger then my evasion and their weapon will have more NW then my evasion gear. That would appear to me to be a higher cost.
How do you work out that trained evasion is a fraction of the cost of NW of items?
I'm just curious.
The difference between cash and XP rewards for the same battle comes out to around a 1.655:1 ratio, according to extensive (and fairly accurate) research and calculations done by AvoidCXT. I think that this may help determine the relative monetary value of XP.
There are also certain ways to buy XP, i.e. buying BA or new minions. When you buy the expensive minion, you get 1 XP for every $3 spent, and the cheaper minion gets 1 XP for every $5.
I also found that, buying BA on an NCB, I averaged "spending" (money spent on BA - money made back in that same amount of battles) about $1.05 per point of XP I ended up gaining by the end of that set of BA.
Oh, and maybe we could compare MTLs of certain characters (maybe look at single-minion characters, so there's a more direct ratio?) to the NWs of tattoos at those levels. Tattoos do grow based on experience, and the MTL is functionally related to the total XP trained on the character.
Or we could ask Jon.
January 23 2008 10:57 AM EST
"How do you work out that trained evasion is a fraction of the cost of NW of items?
I'm just curious."
"Inherently, in the case of evasion, the opponents EC will need to be larger then my evasion and their weapon will have more NW then my evasion gear. That would appear to me to be a higher cost."
Sooooooooooooooooooo, if they have to spend more money on their weapon then I spend on elven gear and an AoF and if they have to spend more xp on EC then I do on evasion, it would appear that that it costs more to hit me then iI pay in defense.
January 23 2008 11:03 AM EST
GL you missed the entire point of this post. Not sure how you could, it is in the title. More items will allow for itemization to fix problems that arise in the game. If ranged damage is to high, hey, why not add a ranged damage shield. Reduces the amount of ranges physical damage by the 1 % per enchant. Could cost the same to upgrade as a mage shield and work the same way. Give it a minus to skills and dex. OH my god, I just fixed ranged damage and did not have to rework any code. Itemization can fix problems much easier then any other solution.
I didn't miss the point, I was just focused on the other aspect of the topic (about Evasion not being the problem, the items are).
As for more, I feel we need less. Less weapons that is. But Jon disagreed last time I bought it up.
More armour is always wanted. ;) As long as it's significantly different to existing items that is (which I feel is where the current weapon list fails).
January 23 2008 11:13 AM EST
You are right, we need more weapons with specific ability's.
Make the Two-Handed Flail have random spread damage! (you know, cuz it's flailing about!)
Bastard Sword has a percentage increase to damage against people we don't like, as a function of x, plus a hidden value (like the stat drain on Xbows)
Maybe we should add the Old Axe, Good Axe, and Super Axe to go with the Great Axe. With the Old Axe, all you can kill is lvl 5 Magikarp. And the Master-Axe: Every user gets it for one-time use to beat anyone they want.
Mace decreases accuracy (because you spray them in the eyes...)
Long Sword gets one round of ranged! (and two with HoC)
Main Gauche goes in the left hand only, allowing dual-wielding where one of the weapons involved is a Main Gauche (this is SUCH a good idea. It's harmless, with 6 base damage, and makes a good joke. In French, at least)
It's a start. Someone do the two-handed weapons.
Short Bow has no penalty to PTH or Dex when used in melee rounds. Then we can say "Short Bow is the smort bow; Long Bow is the wrong bow."
Heavy Crossbow gives a bonus to ST (you get a work-out carrying it around all the time).
Light Crossbow is easier to swim(?) with.
Get rid of Staff Slings. Instead, make a weapon called a staff (to occupy mages' weapon slots), and then make it sling-compatible. Better yet, slings (regular ones, not the "of Death" variety) can be tied to any melee weapon, and the one-round re-equipping before melee no longer applies. Then you could have BoTH-Slings and Mace-Slings and Old Axe-Slings.
January 23 2008 2:00 PM EST
What really need is more nonsense and buffoonery in the forums. Why take issues seriously and try to find solutions to problems when we can poo poo all over things.....cough cough [RP08]ColonelCustard cough cough. I still have yet to read any valid reason why there should not be more items added to the game.
Moreover, there are enough damage weapons in the game, I see no reason why weapons that gave enhancements should not be added. The only problem would be WA. But using increased WA worth to enhancement weapons could easily be resolve the problem.
Who cares though, lets all just complain about everything in the game and never offer any solutions. I am sure it will make things better.
January 23 2008 2:05 PM EST
I don't think there's anything wrong with making a couple of light-hearted posts. No need to spazz over it.
I would post in the thread, propose new solutions, etc - honestly I would - but no matter what I post or how much, it all boils down to whether or not Jonathan wants to do something about it, and what he feels like doing. As far as I know, there was only ever one "CB player was right" change, and Sutekh prompted that one.
Far as I'm concerned, there's no need for me to debate it over and over when I've done so already and I know that my opinion is moot.
January 23 2008 2:06 PM EST
We had an item that gave bonus to PTH. It still does but in pretty small amounts unless you have a huge tattoo. The ToA. Go back and search the forums for ToA and see how many complaints that particular tattoo received. It's probably one of the biggest reasons why evasion got the boosts it did. A big enough ToA at top levels used to make most evasions worthless.
It's always a mistake to boost things to combat 'overpoweredness'. Far better to reduce the effectiveness of uber skills/spells/items.
Of course if you reduce evasion then you need to find some way to reduce existing huge PTHs, or reduce physical damage to avoid huge weapons doing huge damage for a huge amount of times.
yoyo, I was joking around, in response to BluBB's comment as well an earlier one about the redundancy of weapons. I'm particularly fond of the Lxbow being easier to swim with.
I do see, though, that I got off topic, and that it wasn't helpful to the discussion. I'm sorry for undermining your thread.
I did contribute, though. I think there is an entirely calculable value ratio between money and XP. I'm not confident that I could set up the experiments myself, but I did give examples of ways in which their value could be compared, based on various data.
I suppose, also, that I never actually lent my support to your idea. I meant to. I think it is a good idea, for adding depth to the game, re-balancing, etc. However, if I may, I see certain problems with it:
1. Elven gear has been around for a long time, and Elven Boots in particular are very highly-demanded and well-upgraded. For example, I have a pair of Elven Boots +30 that are worth around 7 mil. Since they're not forgeable, that means that 7 mil of my cash (plus probably 2 mil to get them base in the first place) has gone into these boots. EBs and DBs are the only real footgear options for people not wanting to suffer DX/skill/magic penalties (EBs and EC are more replaceable, i.e. with Tulks, Helms, AG, or NSC and SC or CoI). I, for one, would be very irritated if, all of a sudden, something much better for my strat were introduced, but at base, and I had to re-upgrade them to the same level as my EBs for a similar price, and then sell off my EBs at extremely deflated prices because demand had suddenly plummeted. I can see this happening with a lot of items. If 15 or so items were to be introduced simultaneously, or in a short time period, there would need to be some sort of "trade-in" option from previous equivalent items in order for them to be worth switching out onto your team. And then that still leaves the issue of named items.
2. The new item(s) would have to be beneficial enough that they're worth trading in a (x)% bonus to your DX and Evasion in order to use them. Given how well Evasion works right now, this would either mean that we have to introduce Super-items, of sorts (to give greater benefit than the increase of Evasion for which they were exchanged), or add something new to the game dynamics that makes it better to increase AC by this much or PTH by that much or tattoo leveling rate by such and such percentage. The HoC is an example of a relatively recently-introduced item that has become almost indispensible for a lot of strategies (most mages, junction walls with familiars, archers, anyone with decent ranged damage) to the point that it was worth the drop in AC/ST/etc that happens when you trade out your HoE/HoD/Corn for it.
3. As was said in one of the posts above me, increasing something to combat an "overpowered" thing isn't that helpful, and more often than not leads to a lot more things being overpowered together.
January 23 2008 4:29 PM EST
Why not introduce a two handed weapon with "cleave" ability. It would hit the minion behind the targeted for, say, 40% of damage. Base damage is something like 50-60. Isn't a somewhat good idea?
i think longbows should actually be good(as they are the one of the best bows in history), and also there should be a sling of life
the abbreviation of which would be SoL(greek for 'sun'), so as to give off light, blinding your enemies and healing your minions, though everyone's accuracy would decrease from being blind
January 23 2008 4:45 PM EST
That'd be awesome.
I'd promptly equip one onto a mage, with their never-fails-to-hit ability, which would give me extra restorative powers (add in a TSA!) and reduce the accuracy of my opponent!
and there should be a Blade of Satirical Sarcasm, and there should be strong AI users in the game you have to defeat to win their BoSS, and it should be the best blade in the game and there would be a Crane Relic of Actual Poisoning (CRAP), so the CRAP would be used to fight, though it wouldn't do any damage itself, it would give you opponent E coli, which would give damage over time, though you'd only be able to use it 1ce every hour(at least), because i don't think that people go to the bathroom to take a number 2 more often than an hour, unless your sick or something
January 23 2008 5:11 PM EST
BluBBen, you didn't need to go -.-, your cat already is
January 23 2008 5:17 PM EST
True, but I figured it would make my point even more obvious.
I am officially sorry I started this, now.
Just a preview of what FB integration will turn the forums into... :P
January 23 2008 5:25 PM EST
/me is sorry for destroying this thread that started out in a nice way.
/me promise to not wrote anything like that in General forum again.
New Items would be nice if they added new strats to the game. Using them to fix overpowered game functions is only asking for trouble. I think the answer is to both reduce the ranged damage and how effective evasion is. Maybe even adding a partial dodge. It still hits but the damage is reduced based on the attack roll.
On a side note I wouldnt worry about the bafoonery. This is one of the funniest threads I have read in a long time. It was all still on topic. Sorta :P
January 23 2008 7:53 PM EST
:) i gave many ideas a long time ago... nobody cared :) y should it be any different this time
January 23 2008 10:12 PM EST
"I would post in the thread, propose new solutions, etc - honestly I would - but no matter what I post or how much, it all boils down to whether or not Jonathan wants to do something about it, and what he feels like doing. As far as I know, there was only ever one "CB player was right" change, and Sutekh prompted that one. "
Pessimistic much? Seriously, I'm sure there's been more than one time where a player has helped make a change. Also, I'm sure Jon has gotten ideas off players, but has just changed the specifics.
You're trying to say, that just by all the items, that no player had any effect whatsoever on them and their conception?
a new item should be an MsK that's higher than base
"You can get over 100% bonus to both DEX and STR as well. If this isn't a problem for STR, DEX or other Skills, but it a problem with Evasion, doesn't that imply the problem is with Evasion itself, and not the items that grant the bonuses?"
(FYI, any referral to 'skill-boosting gear' in this post refers to all Elven armors and the AoF)
A 100% boost to PL or Bloodlust, and, to a smaller effect, Junction or Archery, would not save you much experience. I doubt there are very many people who would put all that skill-boosting gear on their BL tank over heavy AC or ST boosting gear, and an Archery tank would most likely benefit more from ToA (although a mix of ST and DX boosting items may be better, it it highly unlikely unless you are rich).
PL minions probably use a TSA and skill-boosting gear anyways, but a 100% bonus on their 300k level PL isn't as big as a 100% boost to a 1.5m level Evasion.
Junction minions can't use all of the skill-boosting gear, and their familiars probably can't use it, either. DD familiars get no use out of the skill-boosting gear, only from NS/AG and HoC, so the boosts only add to your Junction, which still would be a smaller benefit than a 'reasonably' trained Evasion. HF and JKF would receive benefits from skill-boosting gear, although I'm sure most 'top' players would recommend using a different tattoo, anyways. Or, just creating a minion that does the same as said tattoo(s), only better. :)
UC is the only skill that really benefits from skill-boosting gear like Evasion does. Most people who have UC train it really, really high (just like Evasion), and so that 100% bonus is huge. But I think a majority or near-majority would agree that UC isn't as powerful as it really should be, so the bonus to it isn't nearly as noticeable.
Evasion is just a tank-killer. It is impossible for a tank to avoid (If you have an Evasion minion, it does eventually need to be killed. Just killing the damage dealer with Exbow or Axbow (oh, right, Axbow wouldn't work ;) ) or Mageseeker isn't going to win you the battle), and the only 'real' solutions to it are HUGE XP spending, USD, or becoming a Mage (I don't know about you, but I'd rather face Evasion than MgS, EH, AMF, limited cash sinks, and all that other stuff).
Now, if you think that I'm wrong on this analysis, feel free to let me know. :)
"a new item should be an MsK that's higher than base" ROFL
Tyriel: Thank you. You have very well explained the sentiment that GL originally expressed, and what I agreed with about it. Evasion is the only skill whose effectiveness is more than doubled when its level is only (less than) doubled. Destroy it.
there should be a duck mace that quacks when you forge it! XD (botchecks are a good source for ideas)
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