Evasion idea from Lochnivar (in General)
February 6 2008 6:07 AM EST
I thought I'd put this in a thread of it's own just in case it got lost in the redmist that is hatred for the RBF:
"Lochnivar, 5:52 AM EST
So what happens when a sleep-deprived person somehow blends the evasion issue with 'The Matrix' while possibly hallucinating?
Random and possibly bizarre suggestions!
Ok, so here we go:
Massive evasions are perceived to be a problem (particularly with a RoBF), sort of an underhanded and shady way to get a big score with little strategy. (like picking up at a family reunion, nobody really respects you for it).
The complete nullification of millions in NW (ToA, BG, ELBOW/MSK...) is a little vexing (or homicide inducing, depending on the NW in question).
So my solution: (drum-roll optional)
Any weapon over +100 should hit once per round even when facing evasion.
Let a suitably high Evasion nuke all double/triple/quad hits under the current formula.
Have any excess Evasion reduce the damage of the one hit per round (someone smarter than me can come-up with the ratio here). The damage reduction would have to be significant but enough that in investment in HP/AS is necessary, just like every other character in the game.
The moral of the story is as follows:
Like Neo on the rooftop you can't dodge all the bullets but you can make sure that they aren't fatal hits.
Flame away my friends, flame away. "
I think this is a really good idea.
February 6 2008 6:09 AM EST
what's the point of training dex then? just train all ST and Bam.
February 6 2008 6:09 AM EST
yay, since it got a thread, I like it :D
February 6 2008 6:09 AM EST
naah, i'm feeling sleepy too, but that ain't the solution
February 6 2008 6:11 AM EST
"Buglady, 6:09 AM EST
what's the point of training dex then? just train all ST and Bam. "
Without evasion in the picture this is already a strategy that some people use. And against a team without evasion it works pretty well. High PTH, big strength. Yup. Bam!
while i don't think the idea is bad, i will state, again, that it needs to be part of the triad of balancing points: evasion, ranged damage and nw caps on weapons.
i am not sure though that i like any idea that limits our freedom of choice in the game though. if we want forced training and dumbing down the game, why not just have templates that train the appropriate stats for us? that is taking it to the extreme, but the extremes usually show the flaws.
February 6 2008 6:35 AM EST
I agree completely about what needs to be done. And other less obvious knock on effects need to be considered. For example...EC if it's big enough eats into the defensive dex provided by evasion. If you lower evasion's power you're raising EC's power against a large number of teams. Might not be a bad thing that though..
Lower evasion and you definitely need some kind of max NW level for weapons. However if it's anything like the MTL it won't make a blind bit of difference. And then what do you do about +200 level weapons? Refunds for those players who have invested and a reduction in PTH across the board?
Can anybody spell reset? ;)
MTL is still far too high. ;)
It needs to drop, if only for the same reason it was dropped orignally.
February 6 2008 6:43 AM EST
you do know what happen when Exbow hits for 100% chance right?
it is a tough situation, which is why i have stated that it may be better left alone. while i don't want to punish those who put cash into the game, i also don't want to see the game turned over to them as the only thing without a counter.
with the robf's base counters people talk about how boring it is, however i think it would be much worse if we had something in game with no counter whatsoever. many though tend to be cool with a game where an advantage can be purchased.
i do think mtl and any new weapons cap should be more restrictive. i actually would love to see the mtl set to what a lesser would grow normally if we started on day one with it and used it all of the time. otherwise they tend to become the driving force in cb2, along with usd.
And how does this help anyone using a ranged weapon? Even if you hit for 10% of the original damage (1mil original so that means 100k you hits for) you still don't kill any characters using evasion. (except those 20 hp evasion characters).
And besides the point of evasion is that it reduces the number of hits you get in ranged, because of those silly damages in ranged.
February 6 2008 7:51 AM EST
Something is surely out of whack. No matter what someone trains you should be able to hit them ONE time in ranged for something.Evade yes-invisible no! Got to side up with Johnny. From the top down everybody thinks this is too much of an imbalance in the game.
February 6 2008 10:01 AM EST
Why not just get rid of the defensive dexterity that comes with evasion?
Because then no one has any defense versus massive weapons hitting once/twice due to Dex.
And with Morgs and Elbows hitting for 1 mill a pop, no one wouldbe able to cope with 2 Mil a round from Dexterity based hits.
February 6 2008 10:32 AM EST
I still think Evasion should just decay by 10-15% per round. This lets it do what it was intended to do - nerf ranged - while allowing hits in melee rounds, especially later on.
February 6 2008 11:04 AM EST
YOU has a very good point that is being overlooked.
February 6 2008 11:42 AM EST
Wow.... my very own thread (sort of)
A couple of quick things i didn't bother to add at 2am.....
1.) Axbow/Exbow the drain should only take place on 'proper' hits, you know, ones that would be hits under the current system (most likely in Range 1)
2.) The Decaying Evasion idea is actually another one I had pondered, perhaps only having it decay after a round when you are not hit.... that means that the EXP doesn't completely disappear and reduced chances of multiple hits
3.) JW: Neo gets grazed my a couple of bullets during the roof top scene, one on the shoulder and one on the leg. How do you not know this?!? .............hehe
4.) I think what gets to people most is all-or-nothing situation here. The dichotomy of never-get-hit/die-in-one-shot will tend people towards extremes. To a lesser extent EC and the exbow present similar problems. EC, however, requires massive XP comparatively; exbow requires big NW..... thus less hate in either case than Evasion currently endures.
Personally I am unsure as to whether decaying evasion or damage reduction provides a more balanced solution, though I am still leaning towards damage reduction just because it gets rid of (mostly) the one-shot/one-kill situation.
I think that evasion is fine the way that it is. Evasion is defense. Having all defense generally makes it hard to win, especially when that defense is only good against one thing (physical attacks in this case), and the rock/paper/scissors dynamic takes over. It is only in cases where it is possible to have all this defense plus have a way to win that makes this a problem. If there were a way to make people not able to have massive defense and still win, then this would solve the problem.
Some examples of potential solutions were a "Vorpal" skill that was mentioned in the past, making it necessary to choose that or evasion for mages (must balance offense and defense). Obviously doing something to the ROBF also comes to mind, since this allows a ROBF user to be defensive against both tanks AND mages AND have some offensive power.
February 6 2008 12:29 PM EST
I don't like this idea at all.
I already don't like the fact that no mater how much DX you train, you will always get hit by a +100 weapon if you do not train Evasion or wear a pair of DB. I simply hate that logic.
So allowing a +100 weapon to completely nullify not only the entire trained defensive DX, it would now also nullify the Evasion effect and the + on a pair of DB? I think not.
I would much, much, much prefer seeing a PTH effect added to effective DX. That would make a lot more sense to me.
evasion already decays. You know the multiplier goes down in each round?
February 6 2008 1:42 PM EST
It doesn't decay Henk.... evasion is never lower than the effective level (trained + Bonuses)
It is boosted during ranged and the boost decays:
from the wiki
Evasion is more effective during ranged combat: x2.33 during the first ranged round(HoC enabled round), x2.0 during the 2nd, x1.66 during the 3rd and x1.33 during the last round.
big Evasion is just as big in round 25 as it is in round 5
February 6 2008 1:46 PM EST
"It is boosted during ranged and the boost decays:"
Which is why tanks with decent weapons can hit Evasion minions during melee. Well, at least those that do not use the ridiculous single minion Evasion/AMF RoBF strategy.
February 6 2008 2:27 PM EST
It's like parrying a kick. You block it, but it still hurts. I like it.
February 6 2008 2:38 PM EST
"Which is why tanks with decent weapons can hit Evasion minions during melee. Well, at least those that do not use the ridiculous single minion Evasion/AMF RoBF strategy."
Not all tanks hit evasion minions. One needs a highly boosted USD weapon or a huge dex boost from a TOA to try to be able to hit a decent evasion minion.
so other characters that aren't single evasion robf amf users should suffer only because one strategy can't defeat another strategy?
Great lets have that race again like cb1, who has the biggest elb? I enjoy having +4billion hp on my enchanters.
February 6 2008 3:05 PM EST
What about say let the evasion effect only reduce the pth of the weapon? The cth is already getting reduced by the defensive dex.
February 6 2008 3:14 PM EST
Or let evasion slowly continue to decay in melee rounds
February 6 2008 3:22 PM EST
"Not all tanks hit evasion minions."
I seem to remember that my UC tank, which was backed by an EC enchanter could hit just about any character with comparable MPR during melee rounds without the use of a ToA. It couldn't do damage for squat, but it did hit. This can probably be confirmed by Bartman which bought my char and didn't retrain it.
So although you do need a big and expensive weapon to hit, if you have a decent amount of offensive DX to back it up, it doesn't need to be a gargantuan weapon like your MH to be able to hit Evasion minions.
The main problem, as archers like Mikel can confirm, is surviving until melee rounds.
February 6 2008 3:31 PM EST
Just remember to nerf SoD and exshot if you hurt evasion....
the decaying evasion got me thinking. this would be a fix mainly for the stalemates with the robf. how about if you have an robf equipped and only then, the evasion decays at fifty percent per round beginning in round 21. it shouldn't make a difference to most fights, but for those that usually ended in stalemates it would stop much of that?
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