Solutions (in General)
...since Jon has mentioned that he "is thinking about doing someone about it next changemonth" I though it might be nice to put aside all the arguing and actually work on solutions to the challenges that the RoBF creates in it's current form.
Please limit yourselves to giving suggestions for solutions and commenting on those solutions...
A couple I threw out last thread (and watched as they quickly went under the hidden posts link) were near miss bolts that did a minuscule amount of damage when it almost hit you (think of it as a minor force effect that could also increase the ability of xbows to damage heavy AC minions) and/or lowered effect of the RoBF in regards to magic missile damage (it is after all neither fire or cold, which would logically be more effected by the RoBF).
Both Xbows and MM need some love right about now, and being able to use them to beat on the RoBFers seems sane.
(q)aack I misquoted our fearless leader...
"I am considering what to do about that next changemonth"
i had one in the lochnivar evasion idea thread that may have gotten buried, so i will paste here as well:
"the decaying evasion got me thinking. this would be a fix mainly for the stalemates with the robf. how about if you have an robf equipped and only then, the evasion decays at fifty percent per round beginning in round 21. it shouldn't make a difference to most fights, but for those that usually ended in stalemates it would stop much of that?"
February 8 2008 3:55 PM EST
Sounds a bit like "exshot" that RoBF CAN'T reduce. I like it. For that matter maybe the exshot reduction should be lessened or removed?
I don't remember the Balrog as being a particularly quick beasty. If the damage and it's modifiers aren't going to change maybe make the RoBF "slower". Exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to be with evasion or whatever. Harder to kill, easier to hit? Sounds like a more reasonable equation.
But I do like the bolt idea (eyeing his exbow lovingly) how again would that work?
February 8 2008 3:58 PM EST
"Both Xbows and MM need some love right about now"
I can agree that the AxBow needs some love, but the ExBow is fine the way it is... which is a pure anti-tank weapon.
For the MM, it doesn't need much love if any at all. However, if it does get modified, here is my suggestion...
It would be nice to have gloves or maybe a helmet that randomizes the targeting of the MM. So if you are wearing said item upgraded to +20, there is a 20% chance per round that MM will hit a random minion instead of the back minion. It would make interesting fights.
I made this same suggestion few months ago but got very little feedback. Maybe I will get more this time.
February 8 2008 3:59 PM EST
The ex shot reduction is actually ex shot splash damage reduction.
If I hit a RBF straight on I hit for full force. That's if I get past the evasion.
But if you hide your RBF minion in amongst some other minions the splash damage is greatly reduced.
An evasion that decays is an incredible idea. Or how about just the pth reduction can decay down to 0, but the defensive dex stays. The reasoning can be simple: The more you dodge your opponent the more familiar they become with your style of fighting.
Poof, RoBF problem is gone, and melee tanks can be a force to be reckoned with again.
Great suggestion Dude!
February 8 2008 4:09 PM EST
RoBF exshot reduction is fine how it is IMO...
The DD reduction should return back to being FB reduction, rather than all DD types. After all, it is fire.
The flame damage it does needs a reduction as well, or make it like Decay so that it can't kill on its own. Either way, the RoBF enchanter being capable of killing without training any offense allows for far too much concentration.
February 8 2008 4:13 PM EST
I've fought extensively with the RBF and given that I've the largest single RBF minion on my fightlist:
Evasion is the problem - although it's not exclusive to the RBF. But if you want to reduce the RBF's power....
Evasion has a weakness: no bonus in ranged. In ranged it's super stupidly powerful. So I ignore it in ranged. Boost your PTH in melee and it's a lot easier to hit those pesky evasion minions. So, if you want to weaken the RBF give it an evasion penalty. No bonus in ranged when you equip the RBF.
They can still raise stupidly high evasions, but it will take away the 'problem' of a low MPR RBF minion hitting much higher tanks.
February 8 2008 4:14 PM EST
*weakness: no bonus in melee.
Blame the beer....
February 8 2008 4:15 PM EST
JW - seems like the solution to that would be to just make it two minions, 1 Evasion 1 AMF. It would get rid of single Evasion only RoBFers, but not those who take advantage of both the DD reduction and the Evasion concentration. And it can still do enough damage by itself to finish off a team after those 25 rounds of whiffing/no DD damage.
February 8 2008 4:22 PM EST
Multiple minion RBF teams in my experience aren't really the problem; the xp concentration isn't quite as extreme.
Lower the MTL.
Change the DD reduciton from a fixed amount to a percentage, or more it higher in the reduction routine.
with my idea i actually think that both the evasion and dd reduction should decay at the same time and same rates, not just the evasion. i really didn't mean it to be for melee only that it was easier to kill em, i think everyone should be able to if it goes on that long.
Remove the skill bonus on EG, EC, EB, and AoF. Or possibly just make it boost other skills, just not Evasion. Something of that sort.
Maybe even something more radical, like granting Evasion minions an AoI-like effect, where they get hit last.
Take that, Evasion walls (except single minions, but there's always the first suggestion)!
February 8 2008 6:42 PM EST
I agree with Tyriel. But here are some of my ideas:
At least lower or remove the skill bonus from the AoF. The 3% per plus (initially was 2%) is quite large.
Make a counter to RBF, perhaps a new EO spell, but something to counter it aside from another RBF. And I am not typing about the standard damage reduction methods of AC/endurance/protection. Something new or different.
Perhaps make EC pack a greater punch vs evasion, give it a counter aside from more USD into weapons.
Give the RBF a penalty to skills instead of a bonus to evasion.
Make the Magic Resistance of the RBF decay starting in round 1 of melee, 5% per round. By round 24, there is no resistance.
Fix Beleg's or lower the bonus on them to 1.5% per +.
February 8 2008 6:56 PM EST
Another solution to evasion:
Do not give its minus PTH a direct multiplier in ranged.
Let it be like other things that get a boost, boost it then convert that NEW level to its new effect.
Right now Draco has 214 x 2.333 = 499 minus PTH in the first missle round down to 214 x 1.3333 = 286 in the last missile round.
That completely nerfs most tanks. We only hit via dex chance and with the massive defensive dex and its direct multipliers its almost a moot point.
Hm, never thought of anything like that. Good idea, Ranger. Still, it might not bring Evasion down enough. I'm not one to run numbers on these kinds of things, though. I'll leave that to the pros.
Anyways, since Evasion nerfs are pretty well covered, and everybody knows how ridiculous BG are, why not add a (small) DX and Skill penalty to the HoC? Mages have a penalty, I see no reason why Archers should not. Nothing too big, maybe 2% or so, but enough that it makes the decision something to contemplate.
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