More N*B cheese and wines.... (in General)

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 6:44 AM EST

Monkey Business finished it's NCB this morning. I ended up with:

Score / PR / MPR: 2,069,750 / 1,810,290 / 1,298,157

Which isn't bad. I bought BA for the first month, but then stopped because I switched over to tank from the dreaded RBF. So I know why my char ended up at this particular size.

Anyway, Chuck1234's char MI5 started at pretty much the same time. I may need correcting on the details, but I believe Chuck bought BA for the whole time.

He's finished up with this:

Score / PR / MPR: 2,245,350 / 2,597,883 / 1,809,933

Now, obviously if you're using the RBF you can't use the RoE. But if Chuck bought BA the whole time, then three months of bought ba only gained him 500k MPR over me. That's a pretty poor result considering the cost of BA. I'm pretty sure Chuck has fought well, and probably with a pretty decent challenge bonus for the most part due to the strat.

I know it's one more voice to the crowd, but surely the RoE shouldn't be necessary where the bonus is concerned? And surely if you're buying BA all the time through your bonus period you should end up bigger than just over half the size of the top character?

QBRanger February 19 2008 7:11 AM EST

1) We all know the N*B is far too low, even using the ROE, to get to 80% of the top MPR. But then again, if you play a single minion, you can buy 3 minions. Mikel just bought a minion and gained 200k MPR. Expensive, certainly. But an option.

2) Did Chuck buy all his BA?

3) Look at Beee's character. I know he bought almost all his BA and did not use a ROE for the last 2 months. Over 2M MPR.

4) I agree, the ROE should not be in the N*B calculations but then again, it exists and certainly skews things one way or the other.

Talion February 19 2008 7:17 AM EST

Maybe the simplest solution would be to prevent N*B from equipping the RoE and adjust the bonus accordingly. That would be interesting.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 7:36 AM EST

I do need to confirm with Chuck about the buying of BA, but I'm presuming that he did, if only based on comparison to my char. I know I've fought pretty much all my usual BA during that time, and that Chuck's got 20,000 more battles than me on the clock. (and only about 10k less than Horseguy's char)

And yup, buying more minions is a possibility for him - and me.

But still the question remains:should the RoE be such a necessity?

BootyGod February 19 2008 7:38 AM EST

Maybe the -best- solution would be to realize that by using the RoE you're choosing to NOT use a tattoo, never gaining the ability to incredibly quickly level it. The RoE should never have been put into the calculation, and I have been worried for some time that it may be.

About hiring, I don't know. Seems a bit extreme. I think it definitely should be factored in the NCB, but I don't know how much. Maybe it's simply being factored in to a huge degree. I mean, assuming Mikel like hiring from 1 minion, you're talking 600k MPR. If GB had done that, he'd STILL be less than what the NCB suggested.

Something is fishy, fishy there.

Oh, one more time, the RoE should NOT be factored into the NCB. It's a sacrifice, and should not be a forced one.

chuck1234 February 19 2008 7:47 AM EST

Yes I DID buy my BA on ALL days. Mind you, the first fortnight, I was unsure about this NCB char so used to play half the time with my now retired char Starun; also, that gave me only 8/20 and 9/20 instead of 10/20 at the start, hence the MPR graph shows a slow rise in the first fortnight.

The best period is of course from 300k to 800k mpr, when you can use Decay with AMF and the RoBF to take out abandoned tanks. This is when I used to get 100 percent challenge bonuses. Thereafter, the challenge bonus falls, yet the exp rewards do not fall down dramatically.

The worst period is when the score stagnates at 1.5 mil, whereafter the challenge bonus falls to single digits.

The downside with the RoBF is that you cannot use the RoE even to fight way down the list, so that's the downside.

As regards buying minions, I bought my second minion for 25 mil CB a fortnight before my NCB ended, which gave me roughly 150k mpr extra, so minus that i'd have ended up near 165k mpr.

Now, its a steep fall in exp from the 213 pc, though for one fight in the bonus exp period I did get 302 exp which I would get at the lower end of the scale during the NCB in ordinary times. But, I have no complaints. Over time I hope to grow the CoC on the new minion, and if the RoBF does get nerfed then maybe buy another minion next year [i'll start saving from now lol] to act as a Mage wall/ 360 AC wall.

btw, the RoBF at present is equivalent to having another Mage wall minion behind the tattoo, apart from the evasion bonus which DOES exist.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 7:50 AM EST

It's not to say that Chuck, Horseguy and G Beee haven't done well; they have. But even hitting 2 to 2.5 mill MPR is way short of the mark and shouldn't have to rely on an item that maybe plentiful now, but won't be in comparison to Facebook levels of player.

If we are going to be welcoming an influx of players into the ranks via Facebook, do we really want to be saying: "Hello. Welcome to CB. You don't stand a chance of coming within 80% of the top player's MPR, more like 60%. But have fun anyway!"

chuck1234 February 19 2008 7:58 AM EST

JW, the flip side of that is the fun you get in hogging the express lane and overtaking long established characters. Being able to beat numero uno with just 4 months of N*B [+/- the RoE] is an unrealistic proposition. You need to put in some more months/ years of effort. But, reaching within striking distance of the top is also an exciting proposition, especially for a beginner, as most Facebook users will be.

Maybe, we can provide an initiation period of one month for them, and let the NUB begin only once they are familiar with the basics and strategy. I remember having wasted the first month of my NUB partly by not logging in regularly, and mostly through bad strategy and constant retrains. Also, in that NUB period I thought of buying BA only a couple of months later, though that wouldn't be the problem for the NUBs today.

chuck1234 February 19 2008 8:02 AM EST

hey i just congratulated bartjan for B Ark completing 1 mil battles, and this long established char has been a constant fixture on my fight-list since the third month of the NCB. How's that for excitement? Again, let's stop obsessing about Ranger's Koy :)

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 8:06 AM EST

I agree with you there Chuck; I do enjoy the express run, and having a 1.2 mill char duking it out with 2 mill+ chars is pretty damn fun in itself.

But should that be all? For NUB players it might just be enough, to have a pretty strong character that can do much better once they know their way around. But a lot of players who are more than capable of fighting high don't seem to be playing seriously anymore, probably because starting an NCB doesn't offer them what they want as an outcome from playing seriously, and investing time and cash.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 8:09 AM EST

I'm probably I'm more concerned with the NCB, having never had a NUB ;)

Talion February 19 2008 8:51 AM EST

"Maybe the -best- solution would be to realize that by using the RoE you're choosing to NOT use a tattoo, never gaining the ability to incredibly quickly level it."

I think the problem here is not that using a tattoo is a bad idea... the problem is that by using a tattoo during your N*B, you are completely forfeiting your chances of reaching 95% of the top MPR. Without that extra 20%, it cannot be done.

So the debate is about the RoE being a necessity to reach the top during a N*B. And that is a good debate indeed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 19 2008 8:55 AM EST

The bonus was designed without the RoE in mind. If it's a necessity, then the current bonuses are flawed.

This might also be a point in case about the RBF limited ability to fight up (for a high challenge bonus in the twilight of your bonus time) making the RBF a strategy unable to reach the designed marker.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 9:00 AM EST

Rune Of Enlightenment: 286.

That's all there are. Might be more than enough right now. But what about later on? If we get even half of what other Facebook games get in terms of incoming new players, if the RoE is a necessity to challenge the top ranks; where are the RoEs going to come from? Another re-intro of a supporter item? Or suddenly spawning like anything else?

Because that's what we'll be looking at if we're all agreed that it's pretty much necessary to use a RoE when you're running a bonus team. If you want it to be a decent size.

Talion February 19 2008 9:24 AM EST

Current MPR using RoE: 1,143,325

What it would be without the RoE bonus: 914,000

And the smaller rewards I would've received because of the added PR from a tattoo are not even subtracted from that later number.

Everyone will agree that my NCB is rising really fast. You could add an extra 200K to my current MPR if all the BA I missed was added.

Had I spent all my BA with a tattoo equipped, I would be at around 1M MPR right now. Keeping in mind that a character's growth rate greatly diminishes after the 1M MPR mark, reaching 3M MPR would be all but impossible using a normal tattoo throughout a N*B.

QBsutekh137 February 19 2008 9:33 AM EST

I still say make it a bank of BA. Does away with ALL bonus issues and griping (forging, fighting, anything). People can wear tattoos or RoE if they want, for as many (or few) battles as they want.

It would also seem to me that it would be easier to calculate a number of BA for the bonus bank than it is to calculate a percentage bonus that remains the same for a full four months (amidst changes, new items, strategy shifts, etc.)

Finally, a bank of BA is exactly what a new player wants: the ability to fight more and play around. No leaving after that first zero-BA and just never coming back. The itch would be strong when the bite was new and fresh.

If clan points are a problem, then reduce or pro-rate the clan points gained from bonus BA usage. Better yet, just keep track of where the BA came from, and if it came from the bonus bank, do not count it toward clan accruals at all. (Yes, the plan just went into hard-to-program realm, because it would require keeping track of BA "types") Actually, I suppose that might have to apply to forging as well, otherwise someone could REALLY rack up some forging net worth in a short time! BA from the bonus bank could only be used for straight-up fighting, and would not count toward clan points. Bonus BA could even be throttled or set up to be available at certain MPR ranges for the bonus player (in case people worry that a low-end player could rack up too great challenge bonuses and use all the bonus BA there). That is adding more complexity, though. I think it would be neat to see how just a straight bank of fight-only BA would work. If someone wants to use it all up front, they will soon grow to a spot where their challenge bonuses level off anyway.

A rolling bonus also fixes a lot of these same issues, and seems easier to implement. While I like colonel's "old-vet penalty" idea too, it seems more stifling. It's human nature to bring up the lower end instead of penalizing the high end, I think. I would have an even harder time than I already do choking through my BA if my rewards were smaller. Changes are already very much incremental at the higher end, and making the growth even slower would be quite a turn-off. Then again, attrition is a powerful equalizer too, so maybe that would work after all. *smile*

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 19 2008 9:36 AM EST

how is the 80% calculated?
1. use every ba available
2. buy every ba available
3. get 100% challenge bonus all the way?
4. Use the RoE as long as possible??

Talion February 19 2008 9:41 AM EST

I like the current N*B system. It allows you to start a new character and build it up if you didn't like your previous one.

It has a few kinks (like that RoE requirement thingy) but it allowed me start over twice and then start over a 3rd time when BR started recruiting.

So, in my opinion...

Is the current N*B system good enough? Yes.

Could the current N*B system use some adjustments? Yes.

Could an alternative to the N*B system work? Yes.

Would an alternative to the N*B system also require months, if not years, of tweaking? Yes.

Talion February 19 2008 9:44 AM EST

"how is the 80% calculated?" ... it's 95%

"1. use every ba available" ... Yes.
"2. buy every ba available" ... Yes.
"3. get 100% challenge bonus all the way?" ... No.
"4. Use the RoE as long as possible?? " ... Yes. In fact, use RoE, period.

You could also add...

5. Be part of a top 10 standard clan? ... Yes.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 10:20 AM EST

Yes, it is supposed to be 95%. Chuck bought all BA, although by his own admission didn't fight fully with the NCB char in the first two weeks. Still that shouldn't have made that much difference in the final figure.

And so without a RoE, and with all BA bought Chuck ended up with....53% of the top MPR.....


Talion February 19 2008 10:30 AM EST

"And so without a RoE, and with all BA bought Chuck ended up with....53% of the top MPR....."

I have a very hard time believing he spent almost all his available BA. I am not spending all my available BA. In fact, I buy no BA on Sunday's. Yet even with a tattoo equipped 100% of the time, I could handily reach a MPR very close to 2M. Add Sunday's BA and it would be a done deal.

I have been through 3 NCB's so far, so I know what I am writing about.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 19 2008 10:32 AM EST

horseguy was a very dedicated ncb'er. i am not sure if he used the roe or not, but while doing very well, he wasn't close to what he was supposed to be. maybe he can chime in with his tat usage and ba usage.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 10:32 AM EST

I'm only going by this earlier in this very thread:

"chuck1234, 7:47 AM EST
Yes I DID buy my BA on ALL days. Mind you, the first fortnight, I was unsure about this NCB char so used to play half the time with my now retired char Starun; also, that gave me only 8/20 and 9/20 instead of 10/20 at the start, hence the MPR graph shows a slow rise in the first fortnight. "

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 10:37 AM EST

We're going through a little period of intensive NCB play of late, since the readjustment of the bonus.

But if we are looking at 95% of top MPR then you need (if your bonus is calculated today) to finish up after 4 months with 3,239.844.85, based on Ranger's MPR today. Anybody getting close to that? G Beee's doing really well with his team, but he's not going to be in spitting distance of that amount.....

QBRanger February 19 2008 10:46 AM EST

If the N*B is based on VPR, then my VPR is just over 3.6M now.

QBJohnnywas February 19 2008 10:48 AM EST

In which case they need to achieve an even bigger figure. Effectively they need to put themselves about 4th or even 3rd place in the MPR rankings to achieve that 95%.

Talion February 19 2008 11:08 AM EST

"G Beee's doing really well with his team, but he's not going to be in spitting distance of that amount....."

I forgot a factor when pointing out what was needed during a NUB to reach 95% ...

6. Do you need to run a single minion team and hire 3 extra minions at the end of the N*B? ... Yes

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] February 19 2008 11:32 AM EST

Keep in mind however you fight there is still that dead zone that you have to wade through... the dead zone reduces the exp on your character by 50%, and don't forget that that dead zone lasts from about 1 mil mpr to 6/20 or about 2.16 mil mpr. That is about 2 months or more of a N*B's life stuck in a zone gaining little to no bonus and even losing exp from it at times...

Maybe Roe wasn't included in the factoring... but maybe 100% challenge bonus was included... Either way there are factors that we don't even know about yet that make or break an N*B, and don't forget the outrageous cost of BA.

So Jon when you read this... can you please break it down on how you create the bonus... and what is included in it... if you count Roe or not and if you count the challenge bonus, Buying minions, etc.

Talion February 19 2008 11:36 AM EST

"... but maybe 100% challenge bonus was included..."

Good point.

horseguy001 February 19 2008 12:04 PM EST

I made a thread after my NCB was over regarding a 100% challenge bonus is definetly included in the calculation. I bought every single day of BA, and while I did miss a bit during the Christmas holidays, I still burned over 90% of my BA.

It's that horrible abyss of 7/20 that kills the NCB right now. I hit 1 mil mpr in a month, and 2 mil mpr in over 3 months (and I even hired two minions to get me to 6/20 faster). By the time I hit 6/20 I only had 2 weeks left, and tacked on 200k mpr in that time. I used the RoE exclusivly for the first 2 months, then alternated between my ToE and RoE.

QBOddBird February 19 2008 12:46 PM EST

I still vote rolling bonus, if for no other reason than that I don't want all the Jan 1 2005 characters that haven't bought all BA and missed none to die out

AdminG Beee February 20 2008 2:11 PM EST

I hit the 6/20 at cache flush this morning with 11 days of my NCB left.

I didn't miss a day for buying BA, used a RoE for 2 1/2 months and benefited from a reasonable clan bonus through the duration of my NCB. I also used a freaky bow that I borrowed from Freed to allow me to fight up a little bit higher than I would have otherwise.

I was set with my equipment before starting my run and also had a stack of 1,500 BA bought and ready to go. On top of that I had the best part of $20m in cash on hand as a result of various sales and savings prior to me starting out this time. I was still forced into buying CB$'s with USD in order to be able to purchase daily.

The bottom line is that either we don't understand how the NCB is meant to work (I don't subscribe to that), or we understand how it's supposed to work and it's broken.
I'm a mile short of the 95% and can't imagine I missed much more BA than Ranger has so I should be closer even although I wasn't getting a positive challenge bonus for the last week or two.

IMO N*B's characters should not be able to equip a RoE. They should be able to reach 95% of the top MPR without a RoE. It should be expensive to run an NCB and users should have to prepare in order to do so effectively.

The ability to close the gap on the top players via a NCB is a great hook for CB and keeps us all coming back for more. If it's broken...

Talion February 20 2008 2:17 PM EST

I agree completely with what G_Beee wrote.

QBJohnnywas February 20 2008 2:18 PM EST

Yeah, a good summary from the big guy. ;)

QBRanger February 20 2008 2:18 PM EST

"IMO N*B's characters should not be able to equip a RoE."

Agreed with 100%.

Let the RoE be usable only by those after the "super bonus" is over to give themselves a small boost.

Just like NightStrike is doing right now.

QBJohnnywas February 20 2008 2:21 PM EST

Yeah, if the bonus did take you to 95% then RoE use should definitely not be possible. Because that would most likely take you over the top MPR. And this is one of those rare occasions where I'm probably in agreement with Ranger: A player on a bonus run should not be able to become number 1 on that bonus alone.

QBRanger February 20 2008 2:31 PM EST

But there is the problem.

Right now the bonus gets you to about 2.0M MPR (rough estimate) if you do not use a ROE, which is less then 60% of the top VPR of the game.

That proven by Beee, who bought all his BA, started with 1500, and used all his BA. He only will likely achieve 2.3-2.4M MPR using a ROE for over 2 months.

That is pathetic if the N*B is supposed to get you near the top.

2 words: ROLLING BONUS!!

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 20 2008 2:59 PM EST

don't allow the RoE to be equipped with the N*B?
Ow yes that will reduce the price and the use of these things in CB, hurray for another suggestion that totally ruins game play.
Even if there is a new style of bonus a new N*B that allows to get within 100% of the top MPR, equipping the RoE makes it more worth while, I would like to see a change of power, why should number 1 stay number 1?

And don't give me that crap about we have spent countless of USD and time on this, so? Your choice, not mandatory.

Yukk February 20 2008 3:01 PM EST

I agree with G_Beee too. One can only do so much and he seems to have taken just about everything into account.
Jon has to allow for minion buying though. So the maximum a team could get from the N*B would be to take a single minion all the way through and then buy 3 minions. If he doesn't make that assumption then he's not setting the top bar, he's setting some middling level that could be passed by any Rockefeller who knew what he was doing. That, coupled with challenge bonuses being anywhere between 100% and -20% or so make the current system pretty impossible to perfect.
Currently it can turn out fairly competitive characters but they're certainly rare. The realistic result appears to be making it to the 6/20 zone which is 60% of the top.
Would someone please explain the (player) proposed rolling bonus that so many people are yelling about ?

QBRanger February 20 2008 4:23 PM EST

At least for my idea of the rolling bonus. This can easily be modified, but it has the basics of what most people are suggesting.

Any additions and comments would be welcome.

QBRanger February 20 2008 4:25 PM EST

Yes Henk,

It certainly is reasonable for someone who has played the game for 4 months to take over the top MPR spot. <sarcasm>

How much incentive would that give those already in the game?

Would then you suggest everyone make a N*C? Think of the inflation that would occur if the top MPR was taken over every 4 months.

Bad idea, very bad idea.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 21 2008 8:43 AM EST

Why limit a bonus playerto using a RoE?

If they have a strategy that allows them to win, and fight up, without the use of a Tattoo, be it a RoBF, ToE, ToA or a Familiar, then why penalise them for wanting to use a RoE?

Yeah, now the bonus has been recalibrated, a RoE bonus user will generate a lot more XP, and be able to pass the 95% Top MPR marker (maybe even if the Top MPR is using a RoE as well), but they aren't using a Tattoo.

No Tattoo growth (even if you can buy one later), and a strategy that doesn't revolve around a specific Tattoo.

You won't get any RoBF teams being able to do this! ;)
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