Evasion: what's a good fix? NOT whining please. (in General)
March 3 2008 3:51 PM EST
This is how I kinda see it, the balance between tanks and mages.
Mages should be capable of the single, doesn't miss, powerful blasts. This is more or less what they do.
Tanks, on the other hand, can boost their damage with NW and have slightly less powerful hits, but are capable of multiple hits. That makes up for slightly less power, plus one can use NW to adjust damage and number of hits.
So one could use Evasion to lower the number of hits tanks do, but not cause them to whiff entirely.
Solutions to cause Evasion to take on this function...:
1. No more ranged multipliers, effect capped at 80% of level.
2. Continue with ranged multipliers, but always lets 1 hit past.
Any other thoughts? :)
March 3 2008 4:04 PM EST
for sure, your cousin is very good looking.
March 3 2008 4:07 PM EST
I've trained evasion almost more than anything else except HP for the past couple of years. The biggest problem I see with it, is how cheap it is to get over (100). The +200 and over weapons aren't going away, so we probably need the ability to reach that level, but it probably shouldn't be so easy.
Most of the arguments against it seem to focus on how a relatively small skill can nullify a weapon of +200 and upwards. Make it more expensive to train, with a wider gap between levels. Then if somebody is going to train it as high as it goes then they will be forced to choose between it and other stats. Evasion mages will have to choose between the skill or the dd for instance...
Then you could reduce the amount bonus items add to it.
Doesn't necessarily stop the RBF/evasion 'problem' but....
March 3 2008 4:21 PM EST
There are only a few weapons +200 or more, while plenty of evasion is reaching that level or higher.
If the 200 weapon is a bow, the multipliers effectively neuter that weapon.
If it is melee, perhaps one gets a hit or 2 in, but by then typically mages have done you in.
1) Have the AoF not apply to evasion. 3% per level is grossly unfair to tanks that have only the elven gear to use. Yes tanks can use the ToA, but then are quite vulnerable to mage as the MgS cannot be used and AC is not high.
2) Have the evasion defensive dexterity decay in melee rounds. 10% per round. But keep the PTH effect stable the entire battle.
3) Have the defensive dex be 1/2 the evasion level. Equal to its level is very high.
4) If the RBF is not changed, then of course one needs to have the RBF have a detrimental effect on evasion.
5) I really dislike the idea of automatic hits as that is the realm of mages. Tanks hit or they do not.
6) Lower the multipliers in ranged. Have it be 1.0 as before the missile boost. Right now, missile damage is much lower due to the new changelog and the BG fix.
I am NOT advocating all these changes but a nice combination of them is my thoughts.
March 3 2008 4:33 PM EST
Great suggestions Ranger and OB.
I would recommend decaying the defensive dex throughout the fight starting at 3/4ths the current 1.0 level by 10% per round. With the negative pth coupled with defensive DX, ToA tank is the only option of ever hitting an evasion minion, which should not be able to pigeon hole a strategy so completely imo.
I would also be in favor of lessening the overall effective negative pth and requiring more exp in order to gain the same level of effective evasion.
There is a growing problem of stalemates increasing in frequency. This is really frustrating for any strategy. Evasion is the MAJOR cause of these stalemates, because most of the time I stalemate with someone, my tank has full HP, and he whiffs every single round with +135 and +129 weapons (MsK and MH).
March 3 2008 4:51 PM EST
Ranger: As to your #5, my suggestion would simply mean that Evasion could not stop 1 hit from getting past.
That doesn't mean you can't stop it via DBs, Axbow, or these combined with Evasion. Just don't let the skill by itself do it. :)
March 3 2008 4:54 PM EST
So suggestions include:
Reducing or eliminating ranged modifers
Reducing effect to level ratio
Always let up to 1 hit past Evasion
Increase the curve to make achieving each effect more difficult
Change how AoF/RoBF interact with Evasion
Decaying effect each round
Less Def. DX to Evasion level
evasion does seem to be our counter to usd investment. with that being said, any balancing of evasion would have to be involved in a capping of net worth.
i think the net worth capping would have to be done first before the new effect of evasion would be known. so, in my mind, the better question is how do we cap weapon net worth first. then we will know what kind of ballpark evasion should be in. just changing evasion at this point in the game would be much worse for balance than leaving things as is.
as i have stated before the capping of net worth would have to be more effective, even at the highest level of the game, than the weapon allowance, pr or mtl is now and likely more restrictive as well.
March 3 2008 5:29 PM EST
Just as a matter of interest there are currently only 13 (lucky for some) active users with a trained evasion higher than (135).
On the front page of the most valuable items there are 27 weapons with a PTH higher than that.
Any change to evasion that removes it's ability to deal with those weapons pretty much makes evasion useless at higher levels. Unless you do as OB suggests and make it possible to evade completely by mixing and matching other things with the skills.
Also, any fix: would it affect UC's inbuilt evasion? That should be considered. Because any change to evasion makes UC even weaker.
March 3 2008 5:32 PM EST
Sorry, that should read higher than (124). Memory isn't what it should be....
If anything is going to decay it should be the minus to hit, not the defensive dex.
March 3 2008 5:55 PM EST
Perhaps make Evasion dependant on DX. You would need higher dexterity to get effect from it.
March 3 2008 5:55 PM EST
Have tanks stop spending USD.
We need evasion to counter high USD spenders.
"Perhaps make Evasion dependant on DX. You would need higher dexterity to get effect from it."
only if we can change bloodlust and archery to be dependent on your level in decay.
The only original suggestion I can think of is to change Evasion into an Enchant Offense spell. The effect it has on tanks could be similar to AMF, in that it compares effect to CTH to determine the damage done to CTH. I know, it shouldn't be done exactly like AMF, but it would do a few things things:
1) Make it very hard to completely stop a tank from hitting
2) Offer greater protection from a larger weapon than a smaller weapon in terms of CTH lost.
3) Remove the boosts from Elven gear and AoF, and change it to Corn, which is probably something that should be done anyways. The boosts to Evasion are just too huge.
Just make it work similarly to AMF (or have a similar outcome), and I think it could work.
This wasn't a fix, just an increase to the number of ranged rounds. That is all.
I'll repeat my original suggestion. Do not have mth spill over into dex vs. dex. A +150 pair of DB would totally neutralize the pth of a +100 weapon, but do no more than that.
If that doesn't balance it out, then look to reduce the effect amounts.
March 3 2008 6:46 PM EST
I still think the best fix is either halve the defensive dex given or completely remove it. They can't have the best of both worlds, nullifying PTH as well as tank's hard earned dex (even though it comes from TOA :P)
I think making it so that the mth doesn't carry over to dex would be the best fix to evasion.
If you make it so evasion always lets 1 hit through, anyone who uses exbow or axbow will be extremely powerful. Care to take an automatic hit from those every round?
March 3 2008 7:06 PM EST
Johnny that is trained evasion. After item bonuses that number is much much higher, and then add ranged bonus and it's even bigger than that. Not that this helps the discussion, but needed to give that info out there.
Oh and also, for people that don't get the defensive dex part. From what I have read and what I gather some of the bigger evasions are near 3 mil to 4 mil level, with an effect going from 150 to 200 I think. That means that during melee rounds a person needs 3 mil to 4 mil dx to break even and during round 1 of ranged a person would need 6 mil to 8 mil dex. That seems a bit much of a defensive dex situation. Even the melee part. To get 3 the bonus of the taking away all the + from the weapon you now get to take away any dex advantage all in 1 skill. For those that say this isn't wrong then ok. I'll live with it and keep going, but to get both effects at such a high level with the cost involved is a bit much I think.
March 3 2008 7:12 PM EST
You're right Sox, it is only trained; many of the ones below that figure end up much higher thanks to bonuses. We do need to be aware of the numbers though; if only for the sake of balanced suggestions, and attempting to ensure that a wider range of people benefit after any changes.
March 3 2008 9:10 PM EST
there's so much action going on in ranged now, if you nerf evasion even an iota, all those melee toys and spells would be stillborn stuff.
March 3 2008 10:42 PM EST
1stly that was a fix... there was an actually reduction of the multipliers 2ndly more rounds at lower mutiplers = more chances to hit
3rdly i would really like to hear from the evasion/mages please... from what i've seen they are mostly tank users here
March 3 2008 10:45 PM EST
The balance HAS to take into account the boosted evasion from items such as elven gear and the stupid AoF.
March 3 2008 10:49 PM EST
To start off with, let me make something clear again: this is a thread for solutions, not for bickering. That means the following posts simply went off-topic:
lostling, 10:42 PM EST
chuck1234, 9:10 PM EST
Henk Bres, 6:14 PM EST
Please, try not to turn the topic away from its intent: the discussion of a possible fix for Evasion, with presentation and discussion of solutions. Now for an actual discussion:
"Nemerizt, 7:00 PM EST
I think making it so that the mth doesn't carry over to dex would be the best fix to evasion.
If you make it so evasion always lets 1 hit through, anyone who uses exbow or axbow will be extremely powerful. Care to take an automatic hit from those every round?"
Nem: If you are referring to my original post, read a few posts further down and I clarified that only -evasion- would let 1 hit through in that scenario. A combination of DBs, Axbow, DX, etc. could mitigate the remaining hit. However, if one relied solely on Evasion, one hit would always pass through. :) You make a good point though, you don't want to always have Ex/Ax always getting a hit no matter what - but this 'free hit' pass would only apply to Evasion.
March 3 2008 10:50 PM EST
then use an AoF on a tank? and experience the same problem as mages when they use an AOF...
personally... i think AMF > EC in most cases so yep..
Personally I like the idea of linking evasion and dex. Maybe training 1/3 dex in order for evasion to work at all. The trained level of def dex would remain the same, however the pth reduction would be far less in addition to less of a boost from items/ranged.
March 4 2008 1:33 AM EST
Actually I would like to suggest an alternative to the linking evasion + dex.
So for example:
a) You trained evasion (160) and 1mil dex.
You get effective defensive dex: 1mil + 1.6 * 1mil dex = 2.6mil
b) You trained evasion (160) and 20 dex.
You get effective defensive dex: 20 + 1.6 * 20 = 32
c) You trained evasion (16) and 2mil dex
You get effective defensive dex: 2mil + 0.16 * 2mil dex = 2.32mil
Benefit ? You get one more strat to train for everyone that wants the original effectiveness given by evasion. So you get dex if and only if you trained some :)
March 4 2008 2:41 AM EST
Well, here's a slightly whimsical idea: make Evasion more random! :D. Coupled with certain other slight adjustments - such as a lowering of defensive Dex granted - it would certainly make for an interesting fix.
Now, I know many, MANY people are against using any sort of random determining factor in a game of strategy, but I urge you to read on :).
What I'm suggesting is this: instead of the effect decaying over a certain period of time, add a certain random factor to it. Starting in melee, the effect is multiplied by any number from 0.X to 1.X, with a X% chance to be altered in the first round of melee. The second round would have a 2X% chance of being multiplied by that random factor, and so on.
Just my weird thought of the day. I personally think Evasion should be much more random, as that's the connotation the Skill name gives me.
Other than my idea, I still believe the best way to combat the imbalance created by Evasion is simply lowering defensive dexterity. We don't want to nerf Evasion completely here :).
March 4 2008 11:16 AM EST
My suggested fix is this:
Evasion starts at 1.0.
Decays at 10% per round.
Simple as that.
there is some precedent for linking skills to stats. we see it with bloodlust and archery, however they are linked to stats that the character using those skills would most likely be training regardless of using that skill. i assume your goal by doing this is diluting the xp that is put into evasion, if that is the case then why not just make the evasion cost curve steeper. it accomplishes the same thing with much less coding from jon.
if your goal is to add insult to injury, then remember that once a precedent is set it may affect other areas as well. this is why in an earlier post i stated that we could link evasion to dex, but let's also link archery and bloodlust to something that tanks would not normally train, like decay.
decaying skills are also an interesting idea. are we going to make all skills decay though? why is evasion treated differently if not? this falls into the "be careful what you ask for" category. if you aren't willing for all skills, or whatever, to be treated the same way, then it might be best not to suggest that. decaying bloodlust or vampiric aura would probably result in less stalemates as well after all.
March 4 2008 11:46 AM EST
I like the linking of skills to stats. Perhaps a link can be made such that Evasion, or some component (MTH or DX) or percentage of the component, cannot exceed the highest trained DD, enchantment, or intrinsic on the minion.
March 4 2008 11:47 AM EST
That's a good thought too Tezmac =)
March 4 2008 11:52 AM EST
It could be simple enough as having to train the evasion to 75% of the highest stat on the minion to yield an effect of 1.00, which could represent a 100% chance to dodging the DX attack and then removing the MTH aspect of evasion altogether. Then DB's would be the sole method of removing PTH, creating a more vital cash sink for mages.
talk about the pendulum swinging! you want to limit how much it can be trained, plus cut out one part of it entirely and then tie that part to a rare item. that seems a bit extreme, no?
i would assume any balancing would be done with the idea that evasion is effective against usd pumped weapons, but still allows non usd spenders to compete as well. that is a really tough objective, especially without first finding some means to cap weapon net worth.
March 4 2008 12:19 PM EST
I don't think it's all that extreme. *shrug* Makes evasion more of a percentage of another trained aspect, like most the other skills. Who knows how high that percentage needs to be to gain full effect anyway? Might be 10%, might be 90%, only Jon would know. That would make it such that PTH reduction is dependant on DBs, then runners of tank teams couldn't complain that mages don't have a viable cash sink.
March 4 2008 12:20 PM EST
dudemus - that's the objective behind my #2 solution thought. Evasion (by itself) always lets a hit past...DBs or AoI or DX or whatever you use can get rid of the remaining hit, but Evasion cannot cause a whiff entirely on its own. That way you can train it to a size that limits USD weapons, but won't kill all non-USD users as well (unless you invest a good bit in a pair of DB/AoI.)
March 4 2008 12:26 PM EST
what do you mean always a hit past? So evasion should reduce PTH to +100 only? Doesn't seem feasible to me. It's hard to measure where to cap evasion as you described. You can limit evasion to take pth to 0 and no more. Defensive dex can handle the rest. Nerf AoF and problem solved.
i still think weapons will need a cap on net worth though. otherwise that one hit that gets through will just have to be bumped up enough to do the job. i guess that point is a bit personal to my strat as a single minion though. without some kind of weapon cap, kill slots would be all the more important and single-minion strats even less viable of an option.
so again, i do like your idea, if it is part of what i used to call the holy trinity: ranged damage reduction, weapone nw cap and evasion balancing. from the changes we are seeing from jon though, i really do think that hoping for major game changes is a pipe dream. we seem to be in the small tweaks only phase of the game which says to me that the creator thinks it is close to being balanced.
with that being said, i also believe we are much more likely to get an adjustment to the cost curve coding wise than sweeping changes in the dynamics in the current game. this is all imho though.
March 4 2008 12:31 PM EST
I agree with you there, dudemus.
I also like your idea about a hard cap on weapon NW, rather than the useless WA (which matters nothing when you can't get a positive challenge bonus anyways) - something that limits the weapon size, a hard limit that cuts off the stats on a weapon beyond a certain point or something, would work better.
I feel like the game is a lot more balanced right now than it was a few weeks ago as well, just seems like Evasion is the odd piece of the puzzle that's been left untouched so far. Maybe after all this the JKF and Hal can get some love! ;'D
As for linkage to Dex:
Evasion should be linked to DX, because of its very nature. It grants defensive DX. Think about it: Does Unarmed Combat grant me extra ST or DX? To the extent that it grants Evasion, yes, a little bit, but that's hardly comparable, given the difference in cost curves and the fact that only 1/3 of the UC level (unboosted, mind you) goes to evasion. Does Junction grant a minion any boost to their other stats, aside from that which comes from equipped items? Does Phantom Link grant extra HP, in addition to absorbing damage? No, they don't. These are the skills that are not linked to stats.
Bloodlust, on the other hand, increases damage, which is effectively like giving a strength boost... but it is tied to ST levels, and capped. Archery makes DX and pth on bows more effective (or, rather, less uneffective), and again has a cap on it so that it does not exceed 100% cth, while still being tied to a stat. Both of these have the effect of making a trained intrinsic more effective, and both are tied to them (now that I think of it, Archery should probably be tied to DX rather than ST to make more sense, since that is what it affects the most, given the way it has changed multiple times since way back in the day in CB1). Evasion, meanwhile, can give someone with 20 DX a boost to 3.5 million defensive DX... what? If blows can be dodged based solely on a DX advantage in this game, shouldn't it follow that any Evasive maneuver would require a certain amount of dexterity to reach maximum effect?
Think of it this way, dude: with Evasion not being tied to DX, you're getting DX for free. With Evasion tied to DX, you can train a little DX and get it boosted by your Elven gears, which also boost your Evasion, which in turn comes back to boost that DX even more. In a way, the percentage increase to your defensive DX from Elven gears would stack upon itself, and the AoF would indirectly contribute. The only trade-off is that you have to invest in (defensive) dexterity in order to benefit from it.
In real life, I can practice dodging things all I want, but if the time comes and I can't even move my body... I'll dodge nothing. I know the game's not real life, but this is my idea of how it should work if it's going to be a skill that makes any sort of sense.
I like Lumpy Koala's solution, where the effect level and existing DX are multiplicative. In that way, at least, it makes it so that there is a reasonable percentage increase, rather than the 20 DX to 3.5 mil defensive DX I mentioned earlier, which comes out to about a 17,500,000% boost to trained dexterity. Try getting that simply with item bonuses.
On a sidenote, making a skill give a percentage bonus to trained (defensive) dexterity would be a nice feature to add to the game. It gives you the choice between taking your Elven gears up another point for about 6 mil, or increasing your Evasion effect by (10) with 6 mil XP.
I think Lumpy's solution is absolutely brilliant. I think it's probably the best one in this thread, though Talion's solution is a close second.
March 4 2008 5:14 PM EST
Make evasion boost the dexterity and give the minus PTH also.
Not bad, but would have to see it in action.
March 4 2008 5:21 PM EST
You'll have to tell me which was Talion's idea, as I didn't notice where he had posted in the thread...
As far as that goes, it sounds like a good idea (tied to an intrinsic,) but it doesn't strike me as a solution. It really just seems more like it makes Evasion an easier skill for tanks to use, rather than mages...which isn't something I particularly like. As of now, mages have Evasion and Junction as a skill as their choices, one of which requires a tattoo and is only mage-exclusive because tanks generally don't use familiars on the tank minion.
Please point out the solution aspect - though I do agree that it seems to make more sense, it doesn't strike me as SOLVING anything at all. Evasion would be just as overpowered, but simply more limited to a specific minion type.
Sorry, I meant Tezmac, not Talion. Six letter, two-syllable names that start with T, you know?
Think of it this way, OB:
3 million XP.
Currently, put that all in Evasion and you get 250k defensive DX and (61) Evasion according to the wiki (though I'm not sure those values were ever corrected after the rescale).
Split that evenly between Evasion and DX, though, and you get this:
125K + 125k * .45 = 181,250 defensive DX, and 45 minus to hit.
Say we split it 4:1
200k + 200k * .3 = 260k defensive DX and 30 minus to hit.
100k + 100k * .48 = 148k defensive DX and 48 minus to hit.
If you invest them equally, it's about 74% as effective as it was before in both aspects.
If you invest more heavily in DX, you can get more defensive DX than the current system, but a little under half the minus to hit.
If you invest more heavily in Evasion, you will get a decent amount of minus to hit, but considerably less defensive DX.
I don't know how much Evasion has to be nerfed. Would 3/4 is current effectiveness still be overpowered? Would 1/2 be? If we lower its effectiveness enough to make a majority of tanks happy, that probably means that it has been made too low. It has to be at a level where it will still dodge a fair number of blows, because that is its intent.
This system, however, would theoretically make it less effective as you progress through the ranks. I.E. RoBF/Evasion would be effective down low, as tanks would have to have a higher MPR than the 3 mil XP mentioned above in order to be able to counter the defensive DX and still have ST and HP trained, not to mention a WA big enough for a +30 and up weapon. However, once the Evasion curve steepens, Evasion would rapidly start to lose pace with high-end weapons.
24mil XP allocated, split evenly:
1 mil DX
Comes out to 2.11 mil defensive DX and 111 minus to hit
Now, a tank at the same MPR would have, let's say, 1 mil DX, because the remainder of his XP is invested in other things. The Minion with Evasion clearly has the DX advantage... but the tank in question could have an 80mil NW weapon.
Take it up another 500k MPR, and the tank could have a 120mil NW weapon, the Evasion minion will have an even greater DX advantage, but maybe only 118 minus to hit, while the tank could potentially have added +30 PTH to his weapon at that point.
As far as tanks vs. mages go: that would involve strategizing. A mage could keep his DX low and pump Evasion, benefit from a relatively minimal amount of defensive DX, but really max out the minus to hit factor. A tank would most likely be training higher DX, because they use it offensively as well, but would get much less minus to hit to go along with it.
Using the number examples above, a Tank A could come along with 170k DX and a +45 weapon. He would have a DX disadvantage compared to Tank B, who has 260k DX, but his entire weapon PTH would not be negated.
If Tank A fought Mage C, though, he would have a 22k DX advantage, but the PTH on his weapon would be completely negated.
Tank A could then go fight Mage D, who has DX and Evasion invested in equally. In this case, he would have a 45k DX advantage, and exactly 0 weapon PTH.
This situation doesn't look favorable for Tank A, but then again that's what Evasion is supposed to do. I'm not sure that, at this point, it still should be considered "overpowered". If it is necessary, though, maybe the curve should be steepened a bit.
um why not not just cap evasion effect at say 175 or more desirably i guess for most people 200. I mean protection gets capped at 33 so there's no reason why it can't be capped. Means people have a target and don't have to waste exp once they achieve that effect
Because, AA, that solution is so inelegant! :P
In my personal opinion, I think it's unfair if Evasion can make most high-level tanks *never* hit. I think the multiplicative factor, along with the steepening upgrade curve higher up, limits that ability quite reasonably. It charts out like a hyperbola, with an asymptote somewhere around where the "cap" should be placed. Theoretically.
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