Suggestion for archery (in General)
March 3 2008 11:17 PM EST
Since archery is 1/3 your strength and most archers have trained it that high, a reduction will not really be noticed for a while, likely till way after changemonth is over give the slower rate tanks boost their strength as one get near the top.
So how about this, since missile damage is almost laughable now, compared to what it used it be; let archery allow you to switch weapons without losing that first melee round.
The SOD one can use and hit nearly as much as the bow with 1.0 archery. I use anecdotal evidence on this. I see Freed hit my 20 dex minion with no dex himself 4 times in missile. Without archery I hit about 2x at most vs non evasion minons.
So the SOD has a huge bonus of bows in that you can use BL or evasion instead of archery at 1/3 your str level in cost.
Now if your archery is less then 1.0, then you have a % chance, based on the train (.xx) to get off that first round melee attack. IE .65 archery will give a 65% chance to attack the first melee round THAT battle. Each battle is figured differently.
If one does not use a melee weapon and only uses archery, they get nothing extra.
Agreed... this sounds good since the change to ranged rounds and the damage done in ranged.
why not let the archers double dip and get a boost in accuracy AND the extra attack in the first round?
March 4 2008 12:05 AM EST
Archery isn't a boost in accuracy, it brings bow accuracy up to par.
Archers just gained absolute power via the round extension. No team can survive ranged against a maxed archer. They need a boost like the VB needs a base damage increase... move along..
March 4 2008 2:39 AM EST
Most archers also have:
More damage per x if they use an ELB than you could ever hope to get from the SoD
And free seeker ability from the Mageseeker.
You want to be able to use that Morg a round sooner as well?
You want to be able to use that Morg a round sooner as well?
Well it does have a long haft ya know?
March 4 2008 2:48 AM EST
It's the equivalent of a red sports car. ;)
March 4 2008 7:20 AM EST
I also think Archery is fine the way it is.
If archery doesn't suit a strategy, than the switch to an SoD can be made at any time and another skill can be trained instead.
However, I think most archers can not really do without that Mageseeker mage seeking ability. :)
I do think that the ELB will slowly fall into the same category as the ELS. It's a nice damage dealer, but all the other fancy weapons in its category are better in one way or another.
I don't see how you can say that with a straight face Talion...
a maxed archer can now take out almost any team in the game. Mikel can still one hit a large number of people, and he sees quad hits like they are rain drops in a monsoon. It's become a game of get evasion or don't come as far as archery is concerned, and maybe that's how it should be.
March 4 2008 7:49 AM EST
"... It's become a game of get evasion or don't come as far as archery is concerned ..."
And you have just come to this realization now?
March 4 2008 7:50 AM EST
Mikel of course is the exception.
The MsK or the SoD are far better in everyday use.
The MsK will take out most familiars without a sweat. The SoD does not need XP into archery to use well, all that xp can be put into BL/evasion/HP etc... Nevermind the hitting all minions with damage with multiple hits (if you can hit at all).
With the new improved archery damage along with the BG fix, the TOE has become quite nice in reducing ELB damage. That is, of course, if one can hit evasion minions.
Talion is correct in his assessment, at least IMO.
"... It's become a game of get evasion or don't come as far as archery is concerned ..."
At least CB2 has this! ;P
In CB1, there was nothing to stop those Monsoon Raindrops! ;)
March 4 2008 8:34 AM EST
But please look at it from the tanks point of view.
All that NW, all the xp in dexterity and archery and not being able to hit.
A skill with 1.5M trained levels defeating a 50M NW weapon and 2-3M trained levels in dexterity/archery.
And now with the new improved archery anti-buff, archery, even if you hit is pathetic.
March 4 2008 8:39 AM EST
"But please look at it from the tanks point of view."
A valid observation. However, lets be careful when looking at things from a certain point of view.
From a mage point of view, it is frustrating when 50% of the XP is trained into a DD spell which you can't even use without raining another huge portion of your XP into Evasion and XP to survive even one hit from an archer.
This is actually the great thing about CB (in my opinion): No strategy is full proof against all other strategies. And this is always true no mater how much time, XP, and money you invest.
March 4 2008 8:45 AM EST
But mages have the option to train dexterity and use DBs like tanks train dex and use PTH on weapons. Mages can also train EC if they want to lower opponents dex.
Just like tanks have the option to train AMF if they want or DM.
Evasion gives a nice double dip for quite a little xp cost. A 2 for 1 type deal that should only be seen with Happy Hours.
Mages have the option to train Dex? That didn't fly in CB1, and unless Dex increases DD damage, that doesn't fly here!
"All that NW, all the xp in dexterity and archery and not being able to hit."
What NW? It's all hidden by the WA.
"A skill with 1.5M trained levels defeating a 50M NW weapon and 2-3M trained levels in dexterity/archery."
What, 50M NW that doesn't show on your character? Shouldn't really have that much effect then ;)
"And now with the new improved archery anti-buff, archery, even if you hit is pathetic."
Ranged should never have been able to out damage Melee (physical or magical). Ever.
March 4 2008 9:15 AM EST
Get off the Weapon Allowance. A tanks NW is not hidden, it is there for a tank to spend CB2 on. So it if is hidden in the PR, thats another post. But the NW a tank needs to put into his/her weapon is real. Real CB2 earned or bought. Well real in a virtual world.
Without the WA, tanks would get very poor rewards. The WA helps to activate a tanks strength.
We will never agree on that principle.
CB1 was vastly different in that ELB's did tens of millions of damage and right now, only Mikel can approach 2M a hit.
Let mages train Dexterity to defend vs tanks and use DB's. Or have them learn EC as tanks learn AMF to defend vs mages.
Again, evasion is too easy, too cheap for all the bonuses one gets.
March 4 2008 9:27 AM EST
Dexterity on mages did fly on CB1, in the form of Haste (being TM wasn't nearly so rare there, at least not early on).
But Haste already had its disadvantages, and now with DM, it doesn't look very appealing.
OK, Ranger, I'll train dexterity -- but then I better get the offensive advantage too and start hitting twice.
I don't understand why you are still couching other large changes inside the fact that Evasion is broken. I agree (not sure where GL stands) that Evasion is too powerful -- I said as much in the other thread when I said it was silly I could beat Freed. I was told to wait. So, I assume more might/will be done.
Why do people keep coming up with so many other ideas instead of just waiting this out to see what happens? It's only the fourth! Proposing required dexterity for mages is about the most FORS thing I have ever seen come out of your fingertips, Ranger. You know it's a ridiculous idea. If mages have to start training dexterity (and yet only get the defensive side of it) they will do nothing more than become half-rate tanks.
March 4 2008 9:35 AM EST
"But mages have the option to train dexterity and use DBs like tanks train dex and use PTH on weapons. Mages can also train EC if they want to lower opponents dex."
No, not really. The Evasion effect is what mages cannot do without.
No amount of DX on mages can be considered even mildly effective. Actually, with this new ranged rounds system, DX on mages is useless against +50 weapons if used without DB. Anything less than +150 DB would be useless against +100 weapons. It would be a useless strategy against moderately high NW ranged weapons (+100 or higher) and DD spell based characters.
As for EC, training a big enough DD spell and big enough EC to be effective is almost impossible. It would be a useless strategy against ToA tanks and DD spell based characters.
The only alternative to a Evasion right now when you are a mage is DM coupled with a pair of DB. That strategy is very effective against characters that rely on DE.
March 4 2008 9:35 AM EST
Evasion has been broken for months now. People have posted and posted about it.
And what do we get so far. More missile rounds with far less damage. But people are still not hitting.
If, that is a big IF, evasion gets changed/fixed, then we can see how things will go. But as I can see so far, that is a big IF.
The very first change I want to see for evasion is the abolishment of the multiplier directly effecting the effect of evasion. Jon confirmed this being the case. The new effect should be after the multipliers give the new evasion level.
That will not help melee tanks who cannot hit, and other things need to be done.
But it is crazy that one can use evasion and "double dip". That is get the effect of dexterity (for defense) and the effect of DB's (and all their NW).
March 4 2008 9:43 AM EST
If you don't think Evasion is going to get changed...
...then why are you bothering with offering other (sillier) ideas, such as mages having to learn dexterity to compete?
If Jonathan didn't want to change things, really didn't, what makes you think he is going to go for dexterity on mages?
It is day 4 on a change-month, the first full change-month since the RoBF changes accentuated the problems with Evasion. Several people have already stated (including myself) that Evasion still seems pretty strong. So, I am hoping things still get changed. And it is OK with me of Jonathan takes a day, 2, or 10 to mull things over. No amount of new ideas in the interim is going to change the laws of space and time to have anything other than what will happen, happen.
March 4 2008 9:44 AM EST
And as far as equalizing archers and slingers, I agree...there does not seem to be much difference these days.
I think Evasion does too much. Not particularily what you get for training it (jon can tweak how soon you get to +100 etc), but that now it gives Defensive Dexterity there is no need for extra -pth (even on DBs! Sorry Novice!) to reduce Dex based cth.
This is the Problem. For training Dex, Tanks gain defense (harder to hit) and offense (land more hits).
You *cannot* claim that Mages get the full effect from training Dexterity as tanks, as it offers them no offense for the XP spent.
So let trained Dex increase DD damage, and you're on.
March 4 2008 9:45 AM EST
I am just typing that mages do have other alternative ways to combat tanks.
I have seen quite a decline in usage of DB's among mages. Sad when DB's, the very item designed to combat PTH, and a great money sink mages complain they do not have, are not being used by them.
"But it is crazy that one can use evasion and "double dip"."
Just as crazy as Tanks training Dexterity to "double dip". Making them harder to hit, and landing more hits!
They can just spend cash on thier weapon pth if they want to hit more.
Equally sized DB to and equally sized (+'s) weapon offer the Mage *no way* of reducing or negating the Dex based chance to hit.
Sure, you can outgear everyone. But then you're outgearing everyone...
I'd advocate getting rid of Evasion if the DBs + was reduced in cost to allow people to have enough -pth to negate and equally +'d wepaon *and* negate all the Dex based hits as well.
Until then, Tanks should not be able to always land the dex based hits on folk that don't train Dex.
March 4 2008 9:51 AM EST
After a certain point, about 100 dex, tanks need no more dex to get double hits on non evasion/dex mages.
So all that extra dex vs a mage is useless.
But back to my analogy, and back to basics of hitting with a tank.
There are 2 ways tanks hit. Dex chance and Plus to hit chance.
Evasion works on BOTH. Dex tanks train work on just the first of the 2.
So again, how do tanks "double dip" like evasion??
By reducing other Tanks CTH and increasing thier own.
It's double dipping, of two different stats....
March 4 2008 9:58 AM EST
"After a certain point, about 100 dex, tanks need no more dex to get double hits on non evasion/dex mages.
So all that extra dex vs a mage is useless."
No, that's how it works for you and your enormous PTH.
The dex provided by training evasion keeps tanks honest by forcing them to still have to train DX and not being able to just say, train 4M ST and only 650k DX to max out their damage and rely on half effective EC to bring their opponents into their DX range.
March 4 2008 9:58 AM EST
"Until then, Tanks should not be able to always land the dex based hits on folk that don't train Dex."
Then train dex-DUH! Mages can get the same bonuses tanks do for elven gear. But not the AoF superbonus it gives skills like evasion.
Right now mages train: HP/DD and possibly evasion. Take evasion out and you have HP/DD
Tanks train: HP/ST/DX/?archery.
Tanks have to dilute their xp more then mages. Have mages do the same if they want to reduce the dex chance to hit. Or spend more cb2 on their DBs then tanks do on their weapons PTH. Since excess DB +'s DO reduce dex chance to hit.
Mages complain that they do not have a "money" sink, here is one. Mages then complain they are supposed to need less CB2. Well DBs are only the + side of the weapon Tanks have the x and the +. And most should have 2 weapons, DBs work on missile and melee. And if mages do not want to spend the CB2, then they will be hit. It is how the game is.
Mages *can't* dilute thier XP spent on DD, as they can't boost it with cash!!!!
Tanks gain CTH and Defensive Dex from Dex.
Evasion gives Defensive Dex and -PTH.
Both stats give two distinct effects. you just don't see a (xxx) for the Dexterity stats CTH.
March 4 2008 10:07 AM EST
GL. I kinda have to disagree with you.
The idea of dex is that you are either ahead of them or behind them.. If you are ahead then you get dex based hits. If you are behind them, then they get dex based hits. You don't actually double dip.. It's like training EC. You either get their str to neg and take all their damage away or leave them with a little and they blow you up. It's all or nothing.
So I don't really look at that as a double dip, if you do then that's ok, but that is one that we would disagree on.
When you go to double dipping. The evasion is a prime example of double dipping. That skill takes away my + on my weapon and the extra + from my ToA and then also takes away all my dex advantage. That's double dipping.
I just got home from work so if none of this makes sense then I blame it on work frying my brain.
To be pedantic, Tanks also Double Dip with STR.
Not only does STR provide damage, it also provides Damage Reducion. Granted this is really too miniscule to notice, but it's there. ;)
DD doesn't provide any damage reduciton.
March 4 2008 10:08 AM EST
"The dex provided by training evasion keeps tanks honest by forcing them to still have to train DX and not being able to just say, train 4M ST and only 650k DX to max out their damage and rely on half effective EC to bring their opponents into their DX range."
I would wholeheartedly agree to that statement IF:
1) Evasion was not so cheap to train, compared to the dex I already have and the EC I already have and the NW of my weapons.
2) A tank CANNOT train enough dex to keep up, xp for xp with evasion, especially if one uses a AoF.
3) If we are typing about 1/2 effective EC, then we must also put in then 1.5-2x effective Evasion as that is the bonus I see a lot of evasion minions having.
4) I tried the TOA, with 2.4M dex on The Grid and guess what? I did not hit much in missile (obvious due to archery being .56) but did not get an extra melee hit at all. The TOA's PTH is minimal for my MH (which is a great change from the past), while the extra dex means nothing vs high level evasions. So please get off the fact my dex is low.
5) Even high dex teams like Soxjr with a +150 MsK and over 2.5M dex with a TOA missing evasion minions completely in missile and melee.
Sox, then Evasion is the same.
Either it's ahead of them and you don't get hit, or it's behind them and you do.
"A tank CANNOT train enough dex to keep up, xp for xp with evasion"
They both cost 12xp per point.
The AoF is a seperate issue.
March 4 2008 10:11 AM EST
You make complete sense Soxjr.
Evasion is the prime example in all of CB of double dipping into 2 different areas.
Yes strength does reduce damage but I have not noted any reduction from 2M to 4M str. So I doubt it may even be there.
Again, Dexterity just effected dex based chance to hit.
Evasion effects dex based and plus based chances to hit. Both remarkable well, unlike the strength analogy.
Not, it doesn't Ranger.
CTH and PTH are one thing. Got by two different sources. Like Damage from weapons. STR and X.
There you go, EC is the most abusive. Quadruple dipping reductions on STR and X and Evasion and DEX!!!!!!
March 4 2008 10:14 AM EST
The reason why they can't keep up. In the first round of ranged a eavsion minion with 3 mil trained levels in evasion I would need 6 mil trained lvls in dex. From that point on every 12 xp they put in is worth 24 xp in round 1. I can NEVER keep up with that. I only keep up once it gets to melee and it's 1.00 .. which at that point my dex takes a shot because of ranged in melee, butthat is my choice, but the other part is where it shows it's impossible to keep up.
March 4 2008 10:16 AM EST
I have always stated that granting a smallish PTH effect to DX (coupled with a ToA PTH reduction) would even things out for tanks.
I might be wrong, but no one has been able to decisively convince me of that yet.
Ranged modifiers are really a different topic.
March 4 2008 10:16 AM EST
EC is quite "abusive" but only gets 1/2 its level in effect.
Evasion gets 1.5-2.0x its level in effect if one uses elven gear and the AoF.
And dex CTH and weapon CTH are different.
At least to all the tanks I know.
March 4 2008 10:20 AM EST
Ok. enough of me in the argument. It's come to the same conclusion most of them get to. A mage/ evasion person says nothing is wrong with evasion and a tank/ non-evasion person says it's broken. Nothing will change the thinking, no amount of evidence or proof so there really is no point in complaining and arguing. Jon will look at the numbers in the fight logs and do what he thinks is right in the end. Either way I will continue to try to make a archer/tank work, and the people for evasion mages will continue to try to make them work. :)
LoL Ranger, with your spin you should go into politics.
"EC is quite "abusive" but only gets 1/2 its level in effect."
1/2 effect double dippining into two areas...
"Evasion gets 1.5-2.0x its level in effect if one uses elven gear and the AoF."
Ah... I see you didn't include a Corn increase to EC.
So you're doctoring your arguement by using item bonuses for one side, and ignoring them on the other.
Plus again, the AoF is a seperate topic.
Sox, I'm a mage/evasion person, and I agree something needs to be changed. Personally, I'd like to see a change "under the hood" to the mechanics of the hit routine, rather than allowing Tanks to have an automtic 1/2 hits on any non Tank.
Corns are what, 20% max without pulling a novice? EC gets its exact value of EXP trained in terms of effect: it neutralizes just as much EXP as it takes to train it. (barring multiple tanks, of course.)
March 4 2008 10:29 AM EST
EC gets about 1.2/2 or 60% of its level in effect with a high level corn.
I am such a bad person trying to win discussions omitting such pertinent facts!
So 60% for EC vs 150-200% for evasion.
Sorry for the confusion there.
the real kicker regarding evasion is that, as so often happens, we really have no idea what jon's ultimate goal is for it and therefore where it should be.
just like the ranged changes. if we were paying attention, when everyone else was focused on how uber the robf was, jon made a statement about what percentage of the fights ended in ranged rounds.
i forget what that figure was, 3/4? that statement though, again if you were paying attention, should have told you where the next changemonth was going.
the robf soapbox morphed into the evasion soapbox and people decided that was what was going to be fixed. for those of you new enough, or just that haven't really paid attention over the years. jon has a vision for the game. fortunately, jon seems quite impervious to whining. jon doesn't necessarily share his vision, other than in small tidbits and changelogs. it is really your choice whether to trust in his vision or head out.
jon also doesn't spend as much time on cb as most of us rabid fans. the changes are sometimes slow in coming and problems can seem to last forever. with all of this being said, my main point is once again, only jon knows what is balanced and what is out of whack. we can, and do, discuss things into the ground, but it really doesn't make that much difference...except where bugs that go against the way something has been stated to work, such as the beleg's issue.
March 4 2008 10:32 AM EST
17,247,436 Unlearn DX
9,738,961 Unlearn Archery
57.2 mil nw ToA
50.8 mil nw Mageseeker at +150
Now I am not asking to get a guarantee hit or two, but what in those stats shouldn't let me hit people my mpr or close to me even 1 time in a 10 to 25 round battle? Just wondering. The ToA pushes my STR and DX to 2.5 mil and I'm training DX as much as I can now and I have no chance on catching up to defensive dex of evasion. I personally am liking the new ramp down on evasion so the fix so far has helped me. I hit people in round 3 thru 5 of ranged that I used to not hit at all, but some people I still can never hit and probably never will. Mostly because of the sick defensive dex issue.
March 4 2008 10:34 AM EST
My initial post was an attempt to give archery a little booster given the new changes to ranged damage and the high xp cost involved in using that skill.
So, how about typing on that?
March 4 2008 10:37 AM EST
dudemus, excellent reply!
As for this statement: "A mage/ evasion person says nothing is wrong with evasion and a tank/ non-evasion person says it's broken."
That is true in some cases, but I think in general, the statement should read more like: "A mage/ evasion person says evasion is the only option, so it has to be handled with care and a tank/ non-evasion person says it's broken."
that is what i was responding to ranger. to be clearer though, jon has a number somewhere in his head for what percentage of battles should end in ranged rounds. after the recent changes, some time will be needed to collect data on the new system. once he sees what percentage of battles end in ranged, he will compare it to his magic number and ranged will get adjusted one way or the other.
that is the process as i see it. asking for boosts now is just premature.
March 4 2008 10:54 AM EST
Ranger, you say, "I have seen quite a decline in usage of DB's among mages. Sad when DB's, the very item designed to combat PTH, and a great money sink mages complain they do not have, are not being used by them."
Well, I tried to buy that big pair from DAWG's sale back in the day, went up to 35 million or so, a lot higher than anyone other than you, anyway... And you flat out told me that you "couldn't let me have them". You made the last bid and secured the boots.
That's the problem with gear. When push comes to shove, some very out-of-game dynamics (like cash) can come into play to result in very in-game advantages. Advantages that never go away, because items are forever. That's why I don't like items in a transfer-enabled game.
Take away transfers, and then you can make items as powerful (or not) as you want -- at least it is a level playing field. If your above quote was meant to talk about items being used by mages as a leveller of sorts, that's a joke. You are fond of saying that when it came to certain items or character buys that you were the only one involved or that you were actually doing the seller a favor by showing interest -- I had a front-row seat to something very, very different.
DBs are just a direct foil to PTH. So, with equal gear, and a mage not having the ability to dodge dexterity-related blows, the tank is going to get two hits to a mage's one. With that power hidden in the WA. Talk about double-dipping.
March 4 2008 10:58 AM EST
I remember those DB's (180). I also remember selling my old ones (about 140) for a lot cheaper but you declined to buy them.
But, put that xp from evasion into dexterity and buy a nice set of DB's, and you get the effects of that evasion. Just costs more CB2 and you do not get the AoF superbonus if you use one. True you do not get the multipliers in ranged, but with the new missile damage, is that much of a problem?
Also, however, mage armor should increase AC, it has to for fairness.
March 4 2008 11:22 AM EST
Yes, I declined to buy them because I am not going to play the "escalating item" game when someone can roll in here with USD and get whatever they wish. I took my USD shot, it got me where I wanted to be, and that's that. DBs vs. weapon PTH is just a straight up "who can spend more?" game, and I that is not the style of game I play. I might get back to it once I run out of other things to buy, but since I own nothing that is "top" in the game, and only have a few items even in top five, I still have room to grow there as well. I would not be able to grow DBs big enough right now to make a difference against the big dogs, that's why I have stuck with the Elvens (current Evasion being what it is).
If Evasion were to disappear tomorrow, I would likely just untrain Evasion and go for even more of the quick kill. Throw meat in front and just take the hits and hope for the best (that would already work if it weren't for explosive shot). The other path would be damage reduction/wall type of stuff, but that just bores me to tears so I don't want to go that way.
Just wanted to point out that in order to get that massive boost to evasion an AoF will be involved. Add that to the corns and you come fairly close to 100% EC effectiveness...pretty significant.
March 4 2008 1:23 PM EST
If an AoF is involved then it becomes about 100% EC vs 200% evasion.
Still double the effect.
March 4 2008 1:56 PM EST
Yup HG, lets not forget the AoF works against the wearer in the favour of whomever is casting EC on them. Good point. (Doubly so if the wearer is a mage and the EC caster has AMF working too....)
March 4 2008 1:58 PM EST
Which means in effect if you have EC and AMF and you're facing an AoF user you are getting a nice free XP boost.
"Still double the effect."
Convienently missing out the STR reduction...
EC is *not* meant to be the counter Evasion...
March 4 2008 6:09 PM EST
JW - which makes a ToA/CoC ELB ranged user with an AoF the ultimate target!
March 4 2008 6:32 PM EST
Damn; there goes the next stage of my strat....
You think I'm kidding? ;)
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