$USD and it's influence on CB. (in General)
March 5 2008 9:12 AM EST
No-one can argue that $USD has an influence on your Carnage Blender experience.
Many however argue that using $USD is somehow wrong and should either be eliminated from the game completely or controlled by Jon in some manner. Many others argue that using $USD is simply an extension to strategy and there's nothing wrong with it.
As always there's two (or more) sides to the argument.
We'd like to hear your thoughts on the detail
behind whether it's right or wrong for $USD to be part of Carnage Blender.
Let me be clear - I'm looking for detail here folks. If this turns into a rantfest that $USD is wrong/right "just because it is, and Freed smells" then I'll delete your post and give you a forum vacation.
- If you think $USD is bad for CB and you want rid of it then explain how that could be achieved. Also explain how it could be achieved in a fair manner given that many people have already invested $'s into the game and have either wealthy characters or high NW items as a result. If $USD were stopped how would others catch up - does it matter?
- If you think $USD is cool for CB but you'd like to see it only introduced in a controlled manner then give us the detail - how would it be controlled.
- If you think $USD and the way it works at the moment is great, then tell us no change is required.
- If you have some other whacky idea then post it.
Looking for positive feedback only...
i would need usd to pay my debt. so...yeah, it works.
I already made my statement about USD.
We're currently at the level that would take years and years of gameplay if USD wasn't allowed.
But currently the number of high NW weapons, the MPR reached by some, the incredible imbalance between the top MPR, mid ranged MPR and lowest MPR characters and the networth obtained by same are the direct result of USD influence.
So I like to go into detail how this should be stopped.
First of all I don't think we can now, because if you ban USD spending, the top MPR characters and their USD spending can't be overtaken in a long time, giving them more and more of an unfair advantage.
Simply put, I need to invest thousands of dollars they already invested.
I know USD spending is a choice, but it shouldn't be mandatory if you want a character in the top mpr regions.
The only way to control USD spendings is a "limit" of some sort what you can buy each month or week or day or whatever. For example I have 1000 USD ready to invest, if I do that in one blow I can reach the top MPR and a networth over 500mil in 4 months. Or one NCB period. If there's a limit of USD you can spend each month then this would eliminate that problem.
Or start CB3, ban the use of USD in all its forms including item naming and supporterships
There is only one way to remove USD/Beers/Other Games Goods/Labour exhanges for CB stuff.
And that is to remove Player to Player transfers entirely.
A boycott of trading for other than CB2 on CB itself, would just lead to trade moving elsewhere. Someone elses website for example.
I'm torn. I don't think USD is a 'strategy' as it's controlled by out of game influences. but I don't think I want player to player transfers scrapped.
How is USD 'abused' most? Buffing Items and Weapons.
The use of USD (or any other form of exchange) could be controled by controlling what it is used for. That list, limiting the effects of item buffing.
Maybe a solution would be to introduce a 'cap' like the MTL for tattoos to limit the effective size of items and wepaons.
While this still won't stop poeple willing to exchange out of CB goods for CB stuff, it will limit how much of an effect these boosted goods will have on the game.
March 5 2008 9:42 AM EST
I'll sort of start from the back and work forward...
First, I do not think there is any way to eliminate USD in CB's current incarnation. Even if some scheme were put into place (like disallowing transfers from here on out), how would massive existing items be fair? Some sort of rescale? I'm just not sure.
Next, my idea of a USD-free CB... It would have to be a new incarnation where no transfers are allowed from the start except via in-game mechanisms such as rentals and auctions. Any other system would have workarounds, thereby defeating the purpose of trying to eliminate USD. So, no transfers of anything. This is very dire, and effects the following (probably adversely):
ECONOMY: There just wouldn't be much of one, at least not a real capitalist market. Auctions would still allow some semblance of free market dynamics, but that would be about it.
FORGING: There would have to be a way to give someone a weapon for FORGING ONLY. It would not be equippable to fight with. Actually, scratch that... Not sure it could be allowed at all, since someone could pay someone USD for the forging and there would be no way of controlling that. So, a transfer-free CB would probably nuke forging. :\
CLANNING: People who enjoy clans have a lot of fun swapping gear and trying new things. That would all get subdued if no transfers could be made.
That's just three things off the top of my head... The ability to transfer things makes the game more real and fun overall, I think. So it's a tough dilemma.
Even in a transfer-free CB, money could still be sent to Jonathan for supporter items and supportership. I don't really see a problem with that. Some of the auctions Jonathan has done in the past would probably have to be disallowed, though, since getting even just a small leg up via USD (like buying several million CB in an eBay auction) would be a much bigger advantage in a transfer-free CB. In light of that, I am not sure what Jonathan would do when he needed a large injection of cash (such as for a new server).
Another idea to tone down USD would be to simply make items less important. But that wouldn't be a whole lot of fun either. We love items! Without items this would just be "MPR Blender". Additionally, it is hard to make items be worth less. They either have worth, or they don't, and any worth would lead to people using USD to enhance that worth.
I'll finish these initial thoughts by answering the original question: Is USD "bad" for CB? I don't really think it is a moral issue -- more an evolutionary one. USD usage exists because CB is a free, transfer-based economy -- there is no way to control USD in that scheme. And as I have pointed out above, doing away with transfers just makes everything about CB that much more...small. I can't think of a solution for that. USD isn't bad, it just becomes a way (sometime too easy a way) to get that extra edge on someone. It also becomes addictive in the sense that once one "fast-forwards" progress with USD, there is always another $20 or $50 that someone can spend to get another slight advantage. And once items are big and extant, they are big and extant forever. Items never really die.
Standard Disclaimer: I have been a USD spender on both CB1 and CB2. On CB2, most if it went toward buying minions, so that is sunk cost. Additionally, when my time here is done, I doubt I will sell out. I will likely just retire my main character with everything on it and let it all go down with the ship. So, in that sense I have spent the money as sort of a "fun fee", not as some sort of investment. I don't feel I am entitled to get my money back out, nor do I feel any of my items have any real USD worth. This is a game, and any money put into it is fun money.
With that, I will end this utterly useless post! *smile*
March 5 2008 9:55 AM EST
I don't have time to really dive into my thoughts, but I will add one thing. The NCB as it stands right now, is impossible without USD. I just got done running a NCB (MrMunch), and didn't quite like how it turned out. So, I decided to run another one. With the recent change it is even more expensive to buy BA, and still unknown whether it is necessary to reach the top player ranks.
If player to player transfers were not allowed I think you would see the game dry up and die.
I have always been in favor of a committee of sorts that votes on the current CB2/USD ratio, and you would purchase all CB2 from Jonathan. With that in place you could limit how much a person could buy each month, that way you don't create too much inflation.
There are many times when rather than use my CB2 for upgrading items, it would be my preference to have the option to use USD for weapon upgrades (obviously with some sort of agreed upon cap).
March 5 2008 9:57 AM EST
Although I dislike being pwned by USD users, but their presence is still extremely appreciated at least for me on occasions like buying supporter items and item naming. This is because from where I come from, paying in USD would hurt my pocket quite a bit due to currency conversion rate. So I would rather spend sell CBD to get items named or acquired supporter items than to pay with my own credit card.
So here's another crazy idea from me:
1) Jon sets a fixed CBD versus USD conversion rate for every quarter.
2) Jon becomes to sole CBD to USD trader. YES! People like me who wants to buy item naming or supporter items using CBD, we pay CBD to Jon. While Jon's char could sell CBD to other USD buyers through the paypal system like the item naming system. So Jon becomes the middle man for these transactions. And Jon earns all the USD transaction !! Woohoo!
3) Jon disables all forms of direct item transfer. So sales can only be done in auction or sell to store (haha). Forging services or whatever uses rental service or rental transfer.
4) Jon needs to make listing in auction a lot more cheaper than now :P
5) Jon doesn't buy items, he buys and sells only CBD. So you have to liquidize the items yourself. Or just sell them to the store if they are worthless hehehe
What's the benefit of all these? No seller gets a single dime except Jon !!! Now CBD buyer can still skyrocket as much as they want, but their extreme advantage gained in game will directly contribute to the better future of the game !
Also discourages idiotic multies who comes in and sell for USD, because they earn NOTHING !! woohoo! But of course, if you leave the game, you get nothing back either :( However you leave with a peace of mind, that all your earnings goes back to the game for the good community that you have befriended !
March 5 2008 10:02 AM EST
Without USD there would be no tank teams at the top. The effects of DD are far too much without USD to keep up.
One can state teams like Failure are a testament to non-USD, however, a lot of the NW he accumulated is due to the USD backed weapons/items selling for pennies on the dollar. Without USD he would have far less NW to play with.
That said, the only way to stop USD is to stop player to player xfers but even then people can find a way around it. IE, put a dagger in auctions for 3M CB2 and then pay USD via PP outside the game. That is an extreme example but work arounds can be done.
If USD is stopped, then of course the balance of the game would need radical restructuring. DD spells would have to be far lowered, evasion completely changed, and strength likely given a boost.
There are only a few heavy USD spenders, including myself. The biggest effect of USD is on weapons. Sure, one can upgrade a corn or a set of NSC that extra +1 or +2 with USD, however, weapons are the major concern.
A far better fix would be to have a weapon cap based upon your MPR. While we have the weapon allowance and the "hidden" PR it gives or not gives, a weapon cap would stop the massive weapons from changing the overall gameplay.
Glory did state something entirely correct. It is next to impossible to run a NCB without USD, especially after the recent boost. Well, one can run one, but it is impossible to buy BA. Perhaps that is not too bad as one may get to 2.3M MPR without buying BA, but I have no statistics to back that up.
I was just about to say something similar to Ranger where, yes, if there was no USD, there would be no tank teams to compete non-USD/CBD spending mages...
March 5 2008 10:25 AM EST
I don't mind it. Looks to me just other thing certain CB users can whine about. There's always SOMETHING you guys are complaining about, whether its evasion, forging NUBS, etc etc. Can you not just enjoy the game?
March 5 2008 10:26 AM EST
The only problem i have with it, is the inflation it causes.
The only way i can see this being fixed is by having some of the BM auctions spawn in the shop.
Or just have the shop spawn a couple random BM items a day at random times. Only a couple a day though.
March 5 2008 10:29 AM EST
Not to sound aggressive to you, but please play the game for more then 3 months with your super NUB bonus before you understand the dynamics of the game.
It is quite easy to say one thing when your making a 1000% forging bonus and forging millions of CB2 per day.
If, and that is a HUGE if, you are still playing in a year from now, I will then see a different tune from you.
March 5 2008 10:31 AM EST
must add that playing any mmorpg worth a damn these days, you are probably going to fork over a few dollars for items you can only get from the the item malls.
but the thing is they have other items in place that help balance that game play for user that dont have the extra cash to spare. Or special events that go on for the poorer people to keep up and have a chance to get those items as prizes and such.
It's their money, let them do with it as they please. Just like how all you told me "It's their NUB forge bonus they were granted, just wait it out 15 days."
i think the opportunity to have a non-usd influenced game is past, it should have been done when cb2 came about.
every argument has two sides though, and the argument that tanks couldn't compete has the obverse which is all of a mage's hard work and dedication can be negated by laying down some cash. i tend to value hard work, time investment and dedication more than a willingness to spend cash. i see that as a lazy way to get the same results and this is why i have always been against the amount of usd interaction in the current game.
as for changing it now, i think gl's on the right track with some type of item caps rather than something drastic like resetting all items to base and giving some cash amount based on mpr.
i would have a per team cap, rather than per minion cap so that single-minions don't get shafted once again in cb2. people could also then decide whether to have a massive weapon or a more well-rounded team. once the cap is reached, no more items can be equipped until character growth allows it as the cap would be based on mpr.
as far as setting the cap, this could be done by figuring out how much a character makes per say 100k mpr (checked at several different levels in the game) and then multiply that dollar figure times the teams mpr/100k which would give each team it's nw cap.
this might create many trades and upgrades/downgrades while people tweak their figures, but i do not see this as a bad thing. i am sure there are some other downsides to it and that others will help point them out as well. : )
as far as tanks not competing with the mages once this is done, damage figures and such can always be balanced once we see where things stand.
March 5 2008 10:38 AM EST
I dislike the fact that some people take this game seriously enough to spend USD on it and skew the overall outcome of the game. For some people, it is less about how good of a strat you have and more about how much money you can spend to keep your character at the top. I'd love to see this game redone so USD isnt a factor and true dedication to not missing BA, strat development, and optimizing rewards become the only factors in your success.
I think this could be accomplished quite easily just through the community as we do with multi hunting. You see a transfer of money to a person with nothing in return (no forging, no items), reset them. Someone pays 10M for a leather glove, reset them. This would likely mean that things like contests would have to be approved by admins to make sure it wasnt a way around the rule. I think it could be done.
As for implementing it now, it would be difficult. It's pretty obvious that people over a certain NW have been prolific USD spenders. I would think that Jon could come up with a logarithmic fit that could rescale the game pretty fairly.
March 5 2008 10:39 AM EST
Lol, i DO see your point Ranger, but a year down the road I can say I wouldn't be complaining. If I don't like a game, I quit. I like this game. :p
March 5 2008 10:41 AM EST
When I type about a weapon cap, it has to be per minion based on the minions total xp.
If it were just based upon the entire teams MPR, that would hurt multiminion teams that like to run 2 or more tanks.
However, if such a cap is instituted I have confidence Jon will make it appropriate to all.
March 5 2008 10:43 AM EST
Ranger says without USD there would be no tank teams at the top. And that's possible. But it's just as possible that without USD there would be no need for mage teams to have the power they do. Or evasion to be as bonkers as it is.
But short of stopping this game and starting all over again we have no way of knowing.
If you get rid of it you have no choice but to do away with player to player transfers.
You have no choice but to rescale because those oversized items - and it's not just tank items here - will still be here.
I don't mind the way the game is right now. It's all out of whack because several players invested heavily with real time money creating some monster items, but the longer the game runs the more monster items exist anyway. So..
I don't think USD should be introduced as a game element however. I've never liked those games where there are really two games; the free game and the USD one. Generally there are huge differences in what you can and can't do, and what you can achieve. Here at least it is possible given time and patience to create a character from the ground up, for no RL cost that can compete. Not easy maybe, but possible. I like that distinction.
"Without USD there would be no tank teams at the top. The effects of DD are far too much without USD to keep up"
That's a 'chicken and egg' arguement.
DD is only so large so it can compete with the USD Tanks up top.
If that was toned down/removed/whatever, DD could easily be scaled back down to match.
Actually, I think USD spending could be controlled by CD (if we desired to get rid of it). But it would take a lot of admin work. Much harder than finding a Multi.
But if things like external sites are found with trade information, then the players could be reset/banned like a Multi punishment.
The problem would then be gifting, and making deals IRL. Much harder to sort out.
In this light, limiting the effect of what USD can achive in CB would seem to be the best way forward.
I still feel it sohuld be limited/controlled, otherwise RL Bank Balance should be added as an offical Strategy.
". Here at least it is possible given time and patience to create a character from the ground up, for no RL cost that can compete. Not easy maybe, but possible. I like that distinction."
It was something I really liked when I first started CB1. Back then, I didn't play MMO's and was set against paying a monthly fee for a game or paying real cash for in game items!
But, I was able to fight for months, save up a Million CB1 and purchase my supportership that way.
I liked, and still like that, about the game and its community.
From purchasing supporter items for and from others, to doing the same with namings.
Maybe we can have an amalgamation of Dudes and Rangers suggestions.
And overall Team NW cap and an individual NW cap for each minion. This would add a twofold strategy increase. As long as the Team figure wasn't just equal to the sum of the individual caps of course. ;)
i also think that would be a good idea, both the team and minion caps.
another thought though, if my idea were to be used, there would probably need to be a reverse blacksmithing ability to remove some net worth from items. giving cash back would be useless, so maybe blacksmithing credits of some type could be given so that nw could be redistributed?
March 5 2008 11:14 AM EST
G_Beee, are you asking this because you personally want to know or because Jon perhaps has something in the works?
Or maybe if we come up with something feasible Jon may implement it?
Or all we all blowing hot air and nothing will ever come of our suggestions?
March 5 2008 11:17 AM EST
Just a word about Ranger's comments on auction abuse: I was under the impression that auction abuse is already monitored enough that using auctions or the store would NOT be a way to still spend USD... Such actions would be caught and punished. If that is not the case, then I would have to agree that even stopping transfers would not be enough.
But if that IS the case, I think doing away with transfers could indeed stop all USD spending, because in-game mechanics can be more easily monitored (if admins can catch multis, they could catch auction scammers...)
Still doesn't solve the issue of 'no transfers" perhaps equaling "no fun". BUT, I can list a few positives to the no-transfer scenario:
-- No scamming. No more "I paid him and didn't get the item!" or "I gave him an item and didn't get paid!" FS/WTB forum would simply disappear, and I guess Public Record would almost dry up too... Hm, and what about Contests? Oops, this is supposed to be a POSITIVE list for no-transfers. *smile*
-- No Monty scenarios...no loaning...so no bad-debt situations. NightStrike would likely disagree (rightfully), since loaning is a part of CB's vibrant economy... But at least without transfers you can't have dead-beats!
-- Less inclination to use a NUB just to get cash and sell out. Actually, no inclination whatsoever, since there would be no such thing as selling out.
So, crushing the economy COULD have a few benefits... It's just a whole new type of game to imagine.
Maybe a rescale could work, as Tezmac points out, but I still think that a rescale would leave the top dogs untouchable in a no-transfer world. Previous rescales did not end with a no-transfer conclusion, so things could re-level out. If you rescaled now, unless you did it VERY flatly, the person on top would simply keep playing and stay on top (NUB and NCB notwithstanding).
I agree with Ranger that without having USD injections, other aspects of the game might need to be tweaked. The UPSIDE is that tweaks would work all along the score ladder because there would no longer be huge item aberrations. Right now, large items make it hard to achieve balance at all levels of the game. Sure, various caps and allowances help, but it's still hard. CB1 had the same problem when it came to massive weapons and sets of armor... Balance could be achieved for everything but the aberrations.
March 5 2008 11:20 AM EST
Leaving behind any personal bias as to the balance between tanks and mages:
I agree largely with sutekh about how what seems the only way -to- remove USD from Carnage Blender. There would have to be a complete removal of player-to-player transactions.
The upside to such a move would be:
- a fairer game for all
- fewer massive, intimidating items
- more efficient black market, with the auctions as the only place one can get items
- there are more
The downside, however - and it is a HUGE downside - is:
- No more buying supportership for other players.
- No more buying supporter items for other players.
- Logically, for this reason, fewer supporters.
I do, however, have another solution.
Run the game in cycles: much like tournaments, the game would restart every, say, 6-8 months. A scoreboard of past scores, attributes, and items would be kept, as the tournaments do now, but more complete. Once could then proudly look back as the winner of CB: Cycle IV, for example.
A choice to spend USD for CBD would still be available, for those who want it; however, there would be full knowledge that their cash investment was far from permanent, and this would severely limit its usage. Additionally, players could still buy supporterships/supporter items for others, which is one of the greater advantages to USD and one that I'd like to think Jonathan is loathe to remove.
So there's my solution.
if we go with the no transfers option of fixing usd influence, jon could always set up some system for purchasing supportership with in game cash in addition to the current methods.
March 5 2008 11:28 AM EST
....except how does that benefit him? He would then receive $0.
Thats the point why a USD ban can't work now, jon of course isn't a philanthropic institution he needs to make a living, so he offers supporterships and naming for USD. Which I totally understand. Which isn't bad because its his game and needs cash to maintain the server.
Eliminating transfers between the users isn't the option here. Unless you want to undermine the whole economy of CB.
I don't think an USD free CB is possible, without some starting everyone over or a major rescale.
March 5 2008 11:39 AM EST
Tezmac, 11:14 AM EST
G_Beee, are you asking this because you personally want to know or because Jon perhaps has something in the works?
This topic was discussed on the admin boards as a result of a thread started by Jon. We knocked it around a bit and feel you guys can do a lot better frankly.
Whether Jon is looking to change anything, or indeed will change anything as a result of what's discussed here is entirely up to him.
No-one should take this thread being started as an indication that anything will necessarily change or indeed that change is required or desired. The objective is merely to sound out everyone for feedback :)
March 5 2008 11:49 AM EST
OB, the reset idea is a good one, but just from my perspective (nearly 5 year CB career), I probably wouldn't participate. For me, CB and the characters I develop are a way of life, and 6-8 months is not long enough for me. That is all just my personal opinion, though, but wanted to throw it out there in case anyone else has longevity remarks to make...
i agree 100% with sut, that change would probably end my cb career as well.
March 5 2008 11:54 AM EST
*chants quietly to himself*
"the sky is NOT falling, the sky is NOT falling"
With the ability to sell out and buy back in the NW game would be won by the people who managed to focus NW, mostly likely NUBs.
March 5 2008 12:24 PM EST
i've only been playing for about 2 weeks now but to be honest i have already noticed the massive influence of $USD, i think the idea about resetting over a set period of time is an excellent idea.
it will add a competitive edge into the game purely because people who have been playing for a few years will stay at the top all the time cause they'll keep playing...
maybe if the items you accumulate can be given a total NW and then you get some kind of bonus when the game gets reset after the period has expired.
NW 1000000 would give you 1000 exp points to begin with or something like that.. just a little boost, or maybe a bigger boost but still i'm a great believer in equality and think it'll be good to have everyone on equal standings once in a while..
dag nabit I meant without...
> i think the idea about resetting over a set period of time is an excellent idea
March 5 2008 12:31 PM EST
Hi Jon, good to see a post from you! Can you perhaps enlighten us as to what kind of options you'd be open to? Then we can perhaps expand upon them?
Basically this thread came about because USD is just skewing the game at the top too much for the game to cope.
Evasion is a good example. Would there be any alternative to a monster bow if you wanted to be competitive, if evasion were not "overpowered?"
So that is the dilemma and I'm starting to think that the only real solution might be to reduce the influence of USD in some way.
Well good luck with that, setting limits for USD will be hard.
I think you will find the same problems that every other website has.
How to control the flow "foreign" cash into a relative closed economy.
March 5 2008 12:42 PM EST
Shadowsparkle have over 35M cash and over 400M in NW might be more and from what i know he is not spending any USD in the game.I think that answer question about can you built some NW without USD.From my experience those that cant reach high NW have either sell out for USD or they are just bad players.
March 5 2008 12:44 PM EST
Thanks for the response Jon!
So far it looks like we've come up with:
> Eliminating transfers
> Creating a NW cap per character/minion
> Policing CB transfers like we do multis
> Running the game in tourney mode (nixed by Jon)
Did I miss anything?
March 5 2008 12:46 PM EST
1) Effects on PR could be more drastic
2) Hard cap on weapon NW (i.e. any upgrades past a certain NW/MPR have no effect until you grow into them
as a starter idea in a different direction?
"effects on PR should be more drastic" the effect on PR must remain relative to how much real power the item gives you when equipped in a sensible manner, otherwise you make a nonsense of items altogether.
March 5 2008 12:53 PM EST
Tez, I think Jon, Bee, et al... are deliberately trying not to sway the course of the conversation here. Certainly I think it is helpful for Jon to discount any suggestions he deems unacceptable to help focus the discussion. Providing ideas for us to dwell on/improve on is not.
As for my take on the USD....
I have spent some (not a lot) USD on CB. I like having that option. I signed up back on Jan 1st 2005 but had an extended hiatus through until almost then end of 2006. Without the ability to spend some USD I would likely have become quick depressed at the sight of NUBs.
There are very few teams in CB with 'ridiculous' NW and to be honest I don't really even think they are that bad for the game. Extreme cases tend towards strategy evolution.
Anyway.... before I become completely side-tracked:
I don't think getting rid of USD does more good than harm (quite the opposite imho). However, some of the NW limit suggestions seem interesting. I actually think limits to NW would help add strategy and variety.
Well as I'm sure that all makes sense to someone... I will stop talking
March 5 2008 12:54 PM EST
I have a new thought, even...
Since Evasion is designed to counter massive weapons, that's EXP vs. NW. Definitely hard to balance such an issue, especially when you throw USD into the mix. Same with RoBF (can be insta'd, etc) vs DD.
NW vs. NW: DBs vs. Weapon PTH. The problem is that if one side uses USD, the other side must as well in order to keep up.
EXP vs. EXP: DD vs. AMF. Generally, this a pretty balanced thing, and you don't hear many complaints over it; with NSC lately, you hear more, but the Cornuthaum counteracts that in a small way...
Nonetheless, whenever NW gets involved with damage dealing, things get complicated. Perhaps the PTH system could use a reworking, so it doesn't involve NW?
(I am aware that every tank out there will complain about this; I'm a tank too, and Hejin II will be retrained to one at the end of its growth.)
That would at least fix everything in the arena of weapons NW. I think heavy AC sets vs. ToE/TSA/MgS/EH/etc will likely bring up the same debate about NW or an AC system reworking later, but only -much- later.
So there's my very recent thoughts on the matter.
March 5 2008 12:54 PM EST
Man do I miss a lot while trying to post at work....
My response started about 5 posts back so please read it as such.
March 5 2008 12:59 PM EST
personally a factor of the game that always attracted me is that i can convert my $CBD to USD quite simply as theres a ready amount of people who would do the trade.... (not that i will really do it but the the high possibility)
one way to reduce USD influence would be to create items that are untradeable and unupgradable and only able to be gotten either by doing something... eg. maybe reaching 3mill MPR or something / being on certain days eg. christmas, easter / from tournaments or contests eg. a special prize for the top winner
the point is... if you do this you would have to make the items useful... eg
easter egg 2008
gives 10 AC
gives the minion using this 10% endurance
gotten for finding an easter egg during the easter 2008
santa hat 2008
gives 10 AC
gives a 1% chance to earn 10% more money during a battle
gotten from being around during Christmas 2008
blade of winners
X and + varies according to the trained exp on the minion
gives a 30% chance to deal double damage during a battle
only gotten for being a winner in a tourny
may be a bad examples but you get the idea
March 5 2008 1:10 PM EST
Hmm, oddly enough, I like the basic idea lost has. Like bonus items. and nontransferable, like the cb t shirt. For fun make them re-nameable (even with out the name of power aspect) so your easter egg could later be your "lucky coin". Maybe even make the supporter items non transferable. If you can't use it, don't buy it. Or buy it just to have for down the line. It is a hard nut to crack but as others have stated I think the barring of USD (totally) or P2P transfers would do more harm than good. I think.
i had another thought regarding the nw caps i proposed. to clarify, it would replace the pr system and the weapon allowance as we now have it and thus would include armor items as well as weapons. it really could also include tat nw and replace the mtl as well.
some have asked for a more restrictive mtl so to work that into my suggestion, figure out how much nw is added to tats per minion xp. once that is done, multiply team mpr by the amount added to tats per xp. this number would be added to our item nw cap figure for the total nw cap.
it could then be strategy choices guiding whether to balance out how you equip your team. some percentage could also be added in to allow a certain amount of leeway if desired.
i thought this might help simplifiy things so we don't end up with multiple formulas to all accomplish the same thing, pr, item nw cap and mtl for example.
I think that USD buying is just a part of the game. I'm sure if anyone wanted to they could go and and work a job even just 20 hours a week, and spend it on CB... its YOUR choice to do so.
The only thing i think that needs to be changed about it ... is the Nub's coming in...playing till their Nub is done, and selling out.
So my proposal to fix this. Is make it so that they cannot sell out for 1 year. If they still play after 1 year they can sell out. It might be a little hard to impliment this... so i would suggest making a trade option.
When you go to transfer an item to someone. it goes into a "box" and the other participants sees the item. Then he has to put up his end of the bargain. When both people like the deal, they press accept deal.
If you had that system then you can just make it so there are no trade box's allowed for nubs... (to create) Though... this may make it hard for them to get items...
so i duno
March 5 2008 1:20 PM EST
however the items i suggestion i propose that we dont let them add to the normal item limit... since you cant stockpile them they cant be sold... and make sure a check is done on a char before it is allowed to be xfered... something like if theres an untradeable on that char the char cant be transfered
March 5 2008 1:23 PM EST
The best solution that I can think of, that will not drastically alter what is already in the game is the Weapon cap.
Do we need an armor cap? Probably not as to increase armors beyond what someone without USD can do gets very cost prohibitive very quickly, IE Cornzilla and novice's NSC's.
However a hard weapon cap, whether by minion or character, would allow Jon to know exactly how much the top weapons will do in damage and how much they would hit. Therefore he can titrate things appropriately.
Also, with a hard weapon cap, there has to be a cap for the x and + side. IE, for my MH with its 200M NW, if there is a 150M cap for Koy, then what part of the x and + make it through.
March 5 2008 1:25 PM EST
But.. stopping transfers all together is a bad idea as someone posted previously since supporterships and supporter items would be unobtainable by people.
Unless a very specific mechanism would be in place. But then people could just buy 20 supporter items for people and get a nice advantage.
The current system is not so broken that a few changes could not fix it.
March 5 2008 1:25 PM EST
Jon could do something that combines a few of the above suggestions.
Simply do away with auctions, ammo, transfers and cash rewards per fight altogether and have the game provide a set amount of money once a certain amount of exp is gained. This would keep material rewards tied to exp, which would still reward well thought out strats.
Just like now, you could spend cash on buying an item from the store, purchasing a minion or upgrading an item you've already purchased at the blacksmith. Make rares available in the store, but make them prohibitively expensive at low levels. Just like now, you could sell what you want to the store at a reduced price when you've outgrown it.
This would also implement the cap per minion idea as you would have to choose how to spend your money across your character.
As how to implement this now, Jon could simply look at at everyone's MPR and provide whatever amount of money that MPR would grant. Then apply some type of curve fit determined value to how much of "a refund" he would grant for the NW that person has acquired thus far.
Just tossing out more thoughts.
March 5 2008 1:34 PM EST
lol tez that would make the game really boring for people like me who just wants to make items larger and earn more money lol
March 5 2008 1:36 PM EST
HC, you might be on to something...
Allow NUBs to have stuff transferred to them, but do not allow them to transfer stuff to others other than through CB mechanism like auctions and rentals.
Allow only users that are in Gondor and/or that have spent a minimum amount of total BA to be able to transfer items to other users.
That would solve the NUB selling out problem once and for all.
Also, I like the team/minion cap idea to limit USD spending by veteran users.
There you go. Problems solved.
March 5 2008 1:50 PM EST
Allow only users that are in Gondor and/or that have spent a minimum amount of total BA to be able to transfer items to other users.
What about character transfers? Doesn't buying a char of a certain age put you into a different realm?
I seem to be unique in that I really like USD influence. I like the way it causes a link to the real world, where success in game means accumulation of real wealth (though like stocks it is not realized until you sell). I like that if I were to have to quit CB I would not walk away with only memories - I could walk away with a wallet full of cash. I like that if I am willing to part with some cash I can jump start my team or get it some really nice item (as I did for my awesome DBs).
You see, the key for me is that I don't mind getting pummeled by folks willing to spend more USD than me. I'm not all about reaching the #1 position. I'd much rather be able to buy and sell my items for USD than be able to reach that goal. For me half of the fun of this game is the accumulation of wealth as I am a hard-bitten capitalist at heart.
Also, I ENTIRELY agree that the only way to stop USD influence is to take away PtP trades. That would also take away most multis too. But that would simply stink and kill much of what is good about CB. I think if you did take away PtP transfers you would loose a lot of the players.
w00t - GO USD!!!
March 5 2008 1:55 PM EST
"What about character transfers? Doesn't buying a char of a certain age put you into a different realm?"
Lets focus on the idea and let the admins iron out the details if they like it.
March 5 2008 1:58 PM EST
"I'm not all about reaching the #1 position."
You really are a minority.
I have no illusions of being able to reach the #1 spot either. However, for most people, the point of playing a game, aside from having fun, is to be the best at that game. No?
I do understand and respect your point of view though.
March 5 2008 2:14 PM EST
I have to agree with miteke. I do not mind the influence of usd on the game. For my long time here at CB1 and CB2, the economy and wealth accumulation has always brought me most enjoyment. Do away with the transactions will kill the game for me. I think that nw cap is a solid idea in limiting power of usd.
> That would solve the NUB selling out problem once and for all.
Are you on crack? That's the worst of both worlds.
- it doesn't solve the NUB selling out "problem" (in quotes because it is greatly exaggerated) at all, you just have to be a little more patient if you want to sell out
- it takes away the fun of the economy from new players when they need to be exposed to it most
March 5 2008 2:31 PM EST
"Are you on crack? That's the worst of both worlds."
LOL! Jon fined $50K for un-PG reply.
It sounded like a good idea.
But I see your point.
March 5 2008 2:35 PM EST
Maybe we need to break the whole thing into five realms -
Shire, Rivendell, Lorien, Gondor and Valinor where $USD spenders go.
I can't see already spent $USD being revoked. and I see no way of balancing future endeavors with those who have already made the investment, so either we accept it and move on or we go to CB3.
As far as I know, Jon hasn't given up on CB2 yet.
March 5 2008 2:44 PM EST
"Maybe we need to break the whole thing into five realms -
Shire, Rivendell, Lorien, Gondor and Valinor where $USD spenders go."
That could be interesting. You could even take it a step further to discourage USD spending and give lower rewards to the USD group members that attack the non-spenders and vice versa.
March 5 2008 2:46 PM EST
That seems as though it would be a small-ish group. :P
March 5 2008 2:50 PM EST
Hm, kind of like Warbook's "WAR + 1" mode, where there are different stratas... Transfers could be controlled by whether or not you had "USD mode" enabled?
Only problem there would be for folks who just want to play without the USD would also be cut off from swapping gear, etc... Or, folks could just go with "USD mode" even if they don't use USD and see how they stack up.
But would game dynamics (DD power, etc.) have to be different for each strata? Would that be too difficult to maintain?
March 5 2008 2:58 PM EST
if there was no cb$ to be bought then there is no way that a person who can only get on once a day can ever hope of attaining a good level. Look at me for instance - I had quite a few weeks free over the new year in my NCB and could only burn around 70% of my potential because of real life and Service Provider downtime.
Every game I have played (online) has had Money involved whether by monthly subscription or purchasing of items.
What would be very unfair and imho impossible is to suddenly say no USD. Put a cap on it and increase the per round cb$ reward but that reward must be spent on upgrades to equipment - i.e. you cannot buy/sell cb$.
The only way you should be able to spend cb$ would be to buy/sell equipment.
Of course we would then have to pay a monthly subscription to play the game - so as to supplement Jon's income. There is no way he would be able to support the game purely by naming.
As far as CB3 is concerned - I have already losy thousands on the cb1 closure - there is no way I am gonna be mugged again.
You can't remove USD spending, as there's always ways around it. What you CAN do is limit what CBD actually does for you in the game. You can also penalize over-spending. For instance, if WA becomes a hard cap like MTL, you can add in NW decay until you get under the cap.
March 5 2008 3:18 PM EST
NS, what would be the way around it if there were no transfers and store/auction transactions were monitored for abuse like they are now? (seriously, I am trying to think outside the box but cannot think of any way around it to use USD?)
Sefton also was of the opinion that, no matter what, there would be ways people could find to still involve USD. But I can't for the life of me think of one. And I don't think he ever got back to me on his thoughts, just assured me "there were ways..."
...in response to Jon's earlier question about if evasion didn't exist what could be used to counter a maxed archer... Until the 6 round ranged change a 5 minion familiar team had a really good shot at it as long as it wasn't entirely dependent on spells for HP.
March 5 2008 3:31 PM EST
Sut, it's an extremely awkward way of gaining cash and xp but you could give USD to somebody via the normal route and they could set up a char specifically for you to beat. Providing it was set up properly so that it could grow itself and take on other teams you would have a regular target tailormade. At certain levels in the game with a decent challenge bonus you can make a million in a week. (and yes I know everybody can do that anyway but I'm just improvising here!
I know it's not an easy way of doing but it's one way without relying on auctions and transfers. If I can think of that straight off the top of my head I'm sure others can think of much more effective ways given time.
March 5 2008 3:52 PM EST
JW, that would be so awkward so as to be extremely tedious, hard to pull off, and not really gaining much. Someone is going to spend a lot of time growing a character, always a bit ahead, so that someone below them can beat them up?
-- Nothing is stopping people from doing that now
-- That would be so tedious to the point that I would let them do it!
-- The gains would not be any better (other people could beat the character too, and the person with the strategy specific enough to beat that one, key target would likely be very susceptible to beat-downs elsewhere...
I understand that was off the top of your head, but I would not even call that a USD workaround. *smile* Still waiting for idea on how to make EFFECTIVE use of USD without transfers being involved.
March 5 2008 3:55 PM EST
lol, I was improvising. And yes it's a pretty rubbish idea. And maybe there are no ways to do it, if you got rid of transfers and sorted auctions.
But I know for a fact there are people here who would find a workaround if one existed. ;)
March 5 2008 3:58 PM EST
Perhaps a general item 'rescale' is needed. This could put an emphasis back on stats and off of items NW.
For instance, make the damage a tank does due more to the base value of the weapon he wields and his STR.
March 5 2008 4:05 PM EST
True, de, but the more you take away from items, the more you turn tanks into "slightly-different-mages".
For the same reason Jonathan won't give mages staffs and shields, I don't think he will take the oomph out of items... I could definitely be wrong about that, though...
March 5 2008 4:18 PM EST
Not just weapons...all items. A rescale would change effective level you could obtain with reasonable CB.
I would like to point out a couple things. USD isn't the only way to gather money. Having a huge rental business or loaning out money are also ways of getting ahead in terms of nw. I myself make about 700k a week on rentals right now. That might not pay off that much immediately but it adds up to a lot as time passes.
Stopping USD involvement wouldn't necessarily stop huge nw items from appearing in the game. It would just make it harder to create them.
I like the way the economy runs right now. It might make it harder to catch up with all of those people who have spend hundreds of USD, but I like the ability to cash out if I would want to quit or to be able to buy supportership and supporter items through other people.
If you stop all transfers except through auctions and rentals, and then monitor those closely you will basically kill the economy. There are still ways around that too. You could pay USD in order to rent out a highly expensive item for an extended period of time.
You would also have to eliminate forging from the game. Thats yet another element of cb gone. How could someone even pay for forging in the first place? You could also never know if they are forging for USD.
Lastly, what about all the players who play the game because they like to work with the market? You will see all of those people just vanish into the winds.
March 5 2008 4:45 PM EST
Freed doesnt smell
ive always seen usd in cb, no complaints, thought it held it self quite well being in our hands, and how much we feel its worth within cb.
there should be some quotation marks in there, so Mushu!
"This topic was discussed on the admin boards"
Knew it! Even though you tried to deny it! :P
It's been a long time since I've thrown my hat into the USD discussion ring... wait, the admin formerly known as SNK*R just stole my hat...
Anyways, I don't have any solutions, but I guess I'll offer up my perspective. I haven't been overly concerned with what goes on at the top in a long time - the game itself has always come second to the forum and chat community for me...
My name is BarzooMonkey, and I'm a USD user.
I know it's been a while since I've done a lot of contests (for a variety of reasons), but since my first one in August of 2005, I've probably given away as much CB$ and NW items as I've spent on myself - we're talking about 100s of USD$... and believe me, I haven't completely abandoned them (big Barzoo contests, that is), either...
I've always liked the idea that if I have the time and the inclination, a little USD will provide me with the resources to launch a new contest idea at any given time. CB$ has been readily available all the time for a while now, so when I want it, I can get.
Doing contests makes me happy. Having the resources to help somebody out with namings or supportership or just stuff I have that they don't, makes me happy. I find it just as fun and enjoyable as the actual CB game. But that's just me, and I'm just a minority of 1...
If there were a reset or a CB3 to start things level again, I really wouldn't care about the USD and time I've already spent. The community would be relatively left the same, I think.
However, if there was a reset that completely eliminated the use of USD, thus forcing me to play for months and months just to accumulate enough wealth to do 1 single (what I consider "BarzooMonkey worthy") contest, I probably wouldn't be back...But that's just me...
March 5 2008 8:35 PM EST
Than you for reiterating the contest aspect, Barzoo... Took me 5-6 posts to even remember that whole thing... :\
CB without transfers means CB without prize-laden contests... Given the things Barzoo has put on in the past, that would be a loss.
And thanks for your attitude, Barzoo. *smile*
March 6 2008 1:10 AM EST
Jonathan, I am curious as to why you are so opposed to game wide resets, with item namings, supportership and supportership items rolling over but being reduced to base level each "round". There are quite a few games that do this and quite effectively I might add.
The game in its current state is lacking some basics of longevity imo. Both from a damage/balance standpoint, and from a non-bonus character standpoint. The cost of NCB BA is astronomical, and will only snowball until it is practically impossible to make an effective NCB run. This will put all veteran players at a HUGE disadvantage and practically force USD involvement (which imo is already a reality).
So, how to curb the use of USD in swaying the balance? Simply take away the reason to use it, if the player knows that in 3 or 6 months time, all their items return to base level, there will be more focus on strategy and more competition for the top spot.
I have spent literally thousands on the game over the course of the years and I am advocating the period reset.
If you are completely against it (for reasons which I hope you share, at least partially), then the only other way to curb USD imbalance issues is to impose a MNW (Max Networth) on a per minion basis based on not only exp but also skills. Tanks would obviously need a higher MNW than a mage, but having a 200 mil NW bow, would only apply if that minion had the MNW to allow its use, otherwise you would have to have some kind of configuration option on a per minion basis, that would let the player pick a even distribution between x and + or more x or more +.
March 6 2008 1:11 AM EST
i would quit if that happens simply :)
March 6 2008 1:14 AM EST
Glory - so what happens to the large amounts that people (not just me) have invested in their chars ?
March 6 2008 1:20 AM EST
Jonathan could implement some really rare and cool items to help compensate for the loss of HUGE items that no one else had and those would roll over. This would still retain a slight edge but not be as unbalanced as USD can be and in some cases is now.
March 6 2008 1:21 AM EST
There -is- the point that
1) this is a game; it obviously isn't a permanent investment
2) there's been a restart in the form of cb2 before, could you really say you didn't see it coming?
3) there have been resets before
4) can't say there haven't been warning signs
5) I'm sure there are other points but I'm tired
March 6 2008 1:31 AM EST
The reset idea is a big leap for long time players, but think of how much better it will make clans and competition for rankings. Two elements that are severely lacking currently imo.
I would also be in favor of a CB Bank which would allow loans and interest, the loans could be in the form of bidding on an auction (not getting just a chunk of cash), or buying a minion, or upgrading an item. This would introduce a state in which if a player has a loan from the bank, the player could not transfer anything or have anything transferred to them outside of rentals or auctions. This would curb or altogether eliminate USD (unless Jonathan allowed USD as a form of payment for loan balances).
In the case of a forging contract, which I think should be a contractual obligation that the game made sure occurred fairly and justly (escrow, item is returned only after payment is made etc..), there would have to be a holding state for the item so as to not allow forging for USD.
There are tournaments for regularly restarting chars. If thats what you want, try to get there to be more tournaments. That way you can play in all the tournaments and others can play in a more permanent game. You get the game that has little to no effect from USD and others can play without losing anything from having already invested their money and can continue to invest in the future.
March 6 2008 1:37 AM EST
Tournaments are boring sorry. They are clanless, you are only competing with a very select amount of players, the restrictions for play change too much for my taste and they do not last long enough to really see much in the way of strategy development.
Gotta back the point aobut Tournies for the folks after resets. If they currently don't fit, Tournies could be changed. Make them 6 Month long (or make another Tourny in additon to the ones we get now).
If CB was to get a player wide reset, I'd be one of those players that wouldn't come back.
March 6 2008 3:36 AM EST
I probably wouldn't want to stick around myself; but I don't know. I'm fond of restarting my own char but then I'm playing at my own pace. If the game was a giant tourney then it can get a bit frantic. Not much room for real strategy there....
keep cb2 running, but USD spenders limit thy selfs!
March 6 2008 6:29 AM EST
I don't like games that reset every week. Some do. Or every 3 or 6 months. If that happens I will be off for good this time.
I don't know why you keep talking about a reset when Jon has already stated, that it's not in his plans.
"> i think the idea about resetting over a set period of time is an excellent idea
If you want to curb USD, I would think that the best way for weapons/AC would be to implement some type of BS credits based on your fighting rewards (the cash side), and only those can be spent towards upping your gear. I wouldn't mind having a PR cap for the weapons, but how are you going to do it? Does my cap apply to both Ranged/Melee or a combo of them? Right now, my Elb fits under my WA or my MH fits under the WA, but not both together, so would I take a massive hit on both or once the fight moves from ranged to melee, would that PR cap reset based on that?
I would think that they both need to be handled separately since evasion starts back up in melee with bonuses and then ramps down, otherwise this would be Mage Blender.
March 6 2008 8:03 AM EST
make blacksmith cost cheaper but let there be a chance to fail and lose your weapon... thats what they do in most games... yep
March 6 2008 8:22 AM EST
"I would think that they both need to be handled separately since evasion starts back up in melee with bonuses and then ramps down, otherwise this would be Mage Blender."
I imagine that if a cap was put into place. DD spell damage and Evasion effect would be adjusted accordingly (if an adjustment was needed).
March 6 2008 8:24 AM EST
i think $USD is ok although one don't need it to have a great Carnage blender experience.
10$ to become a supporter = great , it benefit the game creators
10$ to name 2 items = great it benefit Jon
A NUB forger selling cb$ for $USD = wrong, it doesn't benefit the right person
I think only central bank should be allow to sell cb$ for $USD based on offer/demand making it so expensive that only a fool or a ultra-addicted player would buy cb$ with $USD, knowing that the game could be reset at any time.
I hope no one(except for game creator) play this game to get $USD in their bank account, making carnage blender a part-time job(or even full-time)
i really dont care about a player spending 100$ USD a month
but i think every player should have the right to:
1:buy a maximum of 1 supportership a month (so one cannot buy supportership for 10 of his friend the same day getting 20mil cb$ resulting in the same equation than buying CB$ directly)
2:buy a maximum of 10 times named items a month(making this 20 named item) for the same reason that one could go naming items for someone else in exchange of cb$, resulting in the same equation than buying cb$ directly. More, one could then sell the cb$ made by naming other's items and have a balance of 0 USD$
3:spend a maximum of 1$USD per 'X' battles fought
example: 1$usd per 1500fights
of course this does not include own supportership and own named items. (we dont want Jon to do less money, never)
this 1$ per 'X" fights would not include already fought battle, it would start now putting everyone on the same step, i guess.
there could be a different ratio for the different refresh rate
so basically the more one fight the more one can spend real money, the more one can get involve.
to tell the thruth i would prefer that everything stays as it is, since i am reluctant to changes but if $USD get banned i think it would be great Mr.Chairman trade it for cb$, but even if it doesn't happen i like the game enough to stay and have fun on carnage blender with the friends i made in here.
maybe we should do a survey and ask questions like:
what is your age (kids addicted to CB and spending large sum of money without parental approuval could create family problems..)
how much you are willing to spend in one week of Carnage play?(pretty important question, if a majority agree to a certain amount it would be nice, since we are all in this together, isn't?)
I understand that even a majoritary decision by players would not necessarily have it implemented
i think it would be nice to have the total amount of USD$ spend per week by all players so it would gave an idea of how much is really spent, I don't believe heavy $USD spending is a problem, i believe it enhance one's gameplay, knowing the game could be reset at any time.
I apologize for my bad english and i enjoy writing this thread response as much as i will enjoy reading others
ok i am done, whats was i doing before ooh i remember i wanted to post a thread in FS/WTB for a 70$USD in cb$.....
March 6 2008 8:33 AM EST
If there is a weapon cap, it would have to apply to both missile and melee weapons separately. To allow people to do the appropriate amount of damage in both aspects of the game.
And I do hope that the cap for weapons allows tanks to do a bit more damage then their mage counterparts given the CB2 they have to spend upping their weapons.
"I hope no one(except for game creator) play this game to get $USD in their bank account, making carnage blender a part-time job(or even full-time) "
That is almost hysterically funny. I would make about $10/week if I sold all the CBD I made. Even with NUB and doing multi, I don't think you could make a living at this! Maybe I'm wrong though, since I don't really know what a NUB can make in a week, but it would have to be somewhere around 1M CBD$ per hour of clicking to do the trick.
I think the potential Damage should be equal.
The trade off is that Tanks *shouldn't* have to spend as much XP to do the same amount of Damage as Mages, as thiers can be bolstered by cash.
Resulting in Tanks able to spend more XP elsewhere.
But the hard thing to base this balance on (as I've said before) is we have absolutly no idea what number of hits per round Jon Balances Tanks versus Mages on.
March 6 2008 8:56 AM EST
I am happy my french attitude is making you laugh, i will think writing more thread so i can become a clown around here, that is what i do best obviously. :) lol
hahahaha make a living out of CB, hysterically funny hahaha :)
i hope other are laughing too , you were so right Miteke it is so funny hahaha :)
March 6 2008 9:21 AM EST
"And I do hope that the cap for weapons allows tanks to do a bit more damage then their mage counterparts given the CB2 they have to spend upping their weapons."
I think that the ability to score multiple hits per round already addresses that issue. Can it be improved? Yes.
I think that a weapon cap would be great because tanks would have to figure out what the appropriate balance is between weapon damage and PTH while remaining under the the NW cap.
In an ideal world, the biggest difference between mages and tanks should be the certitude of dealing damage in every rounds vs. the potential of dealing substantially greater damage per round.
It's a nice idea Talion, but not really workable under the current to hit mechanics.
DD could be the sustained DPS of CB, with Tanks as the Burst DPS. Over time, they do equivalent damage. But while Mages have the middle gorund, some times Tanks wiff all thier attacks, sometimes they land 4/5/6 in a single round and BBQWTHPWN the minion they hit.
But this would require a PTH change.
Maybe PTH giving the potential for extra attacks (Extra attack slots if you will), with Dex providing a chance for each attack to land (In a way that can't stack up to 100%).
Or something along those lines.
But then DD variance would have to be reduced as well.
March 6 2008 9:34 AM EST
"It's a nice idea Talion, but not really workable under the current to hit mechanics."
I think this all thread is about how the current mechanics could be changed to affect the influence of USD on CB.
And even then, I think that with only a few adjustments, the idea, which is not mine, could work within the current 'hit mechanics'.
i envision an item cap that is the same for all teams, regardless of class. it would encompass all items that add to net worth, weapons, armor and tats. this would create much more strategy opportunities than having an allowance for each type of item. tanks would probably put more nw on their weapons and less on tats, while mages would have the flexibility of having larger tats.
this would also take care of the idea of the game choosing how much x and how much +. it would all be up to us as users and strategists.
tats would be the only item that could be equipped without having the full room in your allowance and it would act much like the mtl now. in effect it wouldn't train up that tat, but as you grow the tat would be used at its higher level.
any system that addresses this issue is going to need tweaks to balance once it has been implemented. i don't think it is possible to come up with a solution that would accomplish the goal and keep everything as is balanced. i am very heartened by the fact that jon is seeking a solution at all though. woot!
again, i think we would need some way of downsizing items put into place as well, either temporarily or permanently. i also think the limit should allow for normal growth on a character plus a little bit extra.
in this system challenge bonus would no longer be needed due to the fact that we would all be much closer in power and mpr would again be a good indication of power. rewards might have to be adjusted accordingly with no challenge bonus though.
March 6 2008 11:40 AM EST
challenge bonus not needed? I'm not following your logic.
Would this be a static power cap, unchanging as a character grow? If it is, that's going to make mages far stronger than tanks very quickly. If it isn't, then though people of equivalent PR/MPR will have similar power, there will still be a difference from the smaller -> larger and that's what the challenge bonus is for: a bonus for beating someone stronger than you/penalty for weaker.
it would grow as a character grows. pr came about because mpr was not a good indication of power due to items being used and the challenge bonus was created to make sure people fought in relation to pr, the real indication of power, as opposed to mpr. at least this is how i always saw it, and why i stated that if we implement the one cap, then mpr will be an indication of power once more.
March 6 2008 11:47 AM EST
Nah, I've always seen challenge bonus as the reward for fighting up and the penalty for fighting down. It's been there the whole time, Jon just made it visible a couple changemonths back, and I don't see why putting limits on PR would affect rewarding someone for a successful strategy. Not only that, but it eliminates one more means of catching up to an opponents, since almost everyone can hit every 6/20 BA....
well, the reason i wanted to get rid of it was just to simplify matters. now we have weapon allowance, mtl, pr based challenge bonus. these can get quite confusing when just starting out.
challenge bonus could be kept if it is deemed necessary still, but have it based on mpr and do away with pr entirely.
and remember that there is already a natural, hidden, challenge bonus built into rewards. we saw it when ranger and i were comparing rewards on a sunday. i cannot keep up with him due to the fact that he can beat higher people than me and thus gets higher rewards, even in the 6/20 zone.
March 6 2008 12:00 PM EST
So you think it'd be better to base it on Score v. MPR instead of Score v. PR, gotcha.
Didn't know about the hidden bonus either, interesting to know.
as for a whole different direction to come at this thing, and much easier to implement. is just cap how many upgrades can be performed on weapons. each uprade would be adding one point to x or +. the different items should probably have different caps. but as it stands now some of the top weapons in game have over 10k upgrade points on them.
i am not sure where the number should be, but i would think that half of that would be more appropriate. say 4k to 6k in upgrade points depending on the weapon. the weapons that are already more desirable would have less points and the others more.
the downside of this is all weapons above caps would need to be reset, or possibly even all rares, so people could reconfigure. the money coming back into the economy would be immense and most of it would not go back into the newly capped weapons.
March 6 2008 12:13 PM EST
Not to mention those who had their weapons forged get more money back than they spent (not that they'd be complaining, of course ;) )
I still like that idea better, however. The approach of simply limiting what USD can do for you in the game is far better than trying to remove it altogether.
yeah, i do as well. yesterday i had brought up the idea of blacksmithing credits, i guess that could be given instead of the cash or possibly a mixture of the two.
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