ExShot/SoD Suggestion (in General)


Relic March 10 2008 2:38 PM EDT

I suggest that we remove exshots from the game, and in replacement there is a new skill introduced similar to BL or Archery, in that it needs to be trained to 1/3 of ST and if used with a SoD, all iron shots have an exshot (exploding) effect.

As it stands now, I am trying to compete with SoD/ExShot minions who have to train nothing skillwise to be able to pummel my entire team, yet my Archer has to train a lot of exp into Archery just to be able to use a Bow effectively.

Who's with me?

QBRanger March 10 2008 2:39 PM EDT

Sounds excellent.

Costs 1/4th your ST, call it Flame Shot.

SuperHD March 10 2008 2:41 PM EDT

I am 100% with you. I hope although i am a NUB my 100% will be taken in consideration.

Relic March 10 2008 2:42 PM EDT

Well, I also would like to see Archery changed to be 1/4 or even 1/5 of your STR due to the recent damage reduction in ranged.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 10 2008 2:43 PM EDT

Agreed. Flame Shot sounds pretty cool too.

TheHatchetman March 10 2008 2:45 PM EDT

agreed. and as far as:

"I am 100% with you. I hope although i am a NUB my 100% will be taken in consideration."

with bonus, he is 924% with you :P

QBRanger March 10 2008 2:48 PM EDT

Or, is he only 100% with us and 824% against us???

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 3:13 PM EDT

So UC tanks couldn't use the SoD with ex shot anymore?

Phrede March 10 2008 3:37 PM EDT

so you cant beat someone so you want their attacking strength nerfed !!

Phrede March 10 2008 3:39 PM EDT

whats wrong with Explosive shots - still dont understand what the problem is - they cost more and therefore are more destructive.

Windwalker March 10 2008 3:41 PM EDT

I thought we already did that with the BG fix and the 40% reduction to ranged.?

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:06 PM EDT

Freed,

That is not it at all.

The fact one gets to have a nice weapon that attacks every minion for essentially 0 xp in skills is what Glory and myself are disillusioned about.

For archery, we have to spend 1/3rd our strength just to use our xxxM NW bow properly. Basically stopping us from using evasion or bloodlust. However, SoD users get a nice potent attack for basically no extra xp cost.

Glory and I are proposing some equality. Nothing to lower the damage of the SoD/exshot combo, just equality.

Or just do away with the archery skill or add something positive to it rather then need it just to use the weapon properly. Especially since BG's have been fixed and damage reduced quite a bit. Even though ranged is now 5/6 rounds, the damage is very much lowered vs TOE characters.

As for the cost of exshots, C'mon. Now that they are essentially common items, nobody is too poor not to be able to use them all the time.

Now, for UC minions, O well. They cannot use a bow properly so why should they be able to use a sling with exshots properly. Let them use the xbows properly. But this is just my opinion on UC as a skill anyway.

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:12 PM EDT

IE:

This is Glory's strength:
ST: 1,816,956

So he has to have about 500k levels in archery to use the bow properly in order not to his evasion minions. (a bit of sarcasm there). His EB's give the rest to make it 1/3rd his str.

Put those 500k levels in evasion, or more dex would help even the playing field against SoD users his equal or near equal power.

Yes, one can say Glory is using a MsK which has its own superpower. However, I counter that the SoD is just as good as it hits all minons. Both do have the same base damage.

ScY March 10 2008 4:13 PM EDT

I actually suggested something like this in the summer. It got shot down though =/ better luck to you, I am for it.

But one thing: exshots provide a minor cash sink. Removing them removes the cash sink.

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 4:14 PM EDT

Better yet, make it be a train of Fireball... *smile* The more Fireball trained, the more explosive effect the shot has, up to a certain capped point.

Not sure whether Fireball used in this capacity would be immune from AMF or not, probably should be.

But if you want to combine Fire with Physical, I think you should have to train both! Then UC folks can still have it too!

Could even make the flaming apply to arrows, I suppose... Hm, an archer tank with AGs equipped... Talk about a hybrid!

Talion March 10 2008 4:16 PM EDT

I don't think the SoD needs a nerf, which this would definitely be.

People are ready to train Archery in order to either...

(a) Hit the big magic damage dealers first
(b) Overcome damage reducers by dealing massive damage.

The SoD / ExShot combo does not have enough advantages to justify using it instead of training Archery and using a bow. Which is why very few, if any, of the top players use that combo.

If it was so great, I am certain we would see more single slingers (Hey, I just made a funny. Lol!).

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 4:17 PM EDT

If you don't like the amount of xp it takes to do archery, don't use archery. Campaign to have bows changed so you don't have to use archery with a bow.

That would make more sense than getting rid of ex shot. Or better still, get rid of ex shot and make the SoD an ex shot weapon; like the mageseeker took over from seeker ammo.

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:22 PM EDT

"The SoD / ExShot combo does not have enough advantages to justify using it instead of training Archery and using a bow. Which is why very few, if any, of the top players use that combo.

If it was so great, I am certain we would see more single slingers (Hey, I just made a funny. Lol!)."

This is incorrect on a few levels.

The first: Remember the VB. I certainly do. I lost over 40M on mine when Jon finally nerfed the overpowered blade. People do not wish to invest in something that they know is overpowered. I am not alone in my assessment of this.

The second: People did not want to invest in a SoD if they already had a high NW elb/MsB. I fall into that category.

The third: The ammo problem. Until a few months ago, keeping a constant supply of exshots was difficult at best. 2 things changed that. The abolishment of the ammo limit and the better availability of such shots. Now, people are boosting their SoDs and they are becoming a much more wanted item.

If Jon would say that the SoD would remain relatively unchanged for a while AND let people convert their ELB/MsK's into SoD, I bet at least 1/2 would. I would seriously consider it.

What Glory is asking is a small nerf, but then the SoD has a huge positive, it is the only weapon that can hit multiple minions in a round.

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 4:23 PM EDT

Fact is though that archer teams are vulnerable to SoD teams, especially if they use some evasive item/skill. Ask G Beee. My last two teams, running with a SoD had G Beee's last two teams on their fightlist. Most of those particular fightlists were archers actually.

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:26 PM EDT

Archer teams are also vulnerable to exbows, axbows, SoD's, other bows etc..

SoD users can train evasion and be immune to other missile users.

Balanced? I think not.

Relic March 10 2008 4:27 PM EDT

My overall point is that ALL ranged damaged (worth anything) requires a skill or spell other than the SoD/ExShot combo.

Not only can a SoD/ExShot toting tank concentrate a ton more exp into other areas, but the exshot hits multiple minions for the same damage as the MsK.

In my case, if I chose to switch to SoD/ExShot, I would be able to laterally retrain my Archery into all ST and suffer no penalty (in fact I would be doing more damage because of more ST). I would also hit the mages first (negating my MsK seeking ability) because the exshot hits all minions (evasion aside).

All I am asking for is an exp relation to such a large damage dealing item. If you want to remove archery and call it even, that is fine with me. But a change is needed to even the ranged playing field outside of DD.

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 4:32 PM EDT

SoD users can train evasion and be immune to other missile users.


So can exbow and axbow users. They also get to drain strength or dex.

And SoD users are vulnerable to evasion like any other tank. And the splash is affected by the RBF. I think it evens itself out personally.

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:37 PM EDT

Only 1 minion can use the RBF.

I personally do not see the equality, hence my agreeing to Glory's post.

Exbow and axbow users do little damage but do have that nice drain. However, the drain only effects other tanks serious enough to change the battle. The drain effect, however, is for a different thread.

But both the SoD and bows are designed to do a lot of damage. The SoD gets to do it without needing a skill, the bow needs a very expensive one.

They do damage in different ways, we are asking for some of the inequality to be evened out.

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 4:40 PM EDT

Going through Glory's attackers, there is one SoD user on the list: Slot Machine. Who is also nearly 2 million MPR in comparison to Glory's 1.3 million MPR.

There are actually more exbow and axbow users pummeling Glory's team into the ground.

So, what I'd like to ask: is where is the problem here?

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 4:43 PM EDT

Add to that the fact that the SoD is a perfect opponent for a large GA. If you train a large GA and I hit all your team at once I get back by GA four times in a round. That doesn't happen to an archer.

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:43 PM EDT

I did not have to look at Glory's fightlist to see the problem. It is obvious to me.

I fight one SoD user and beat him easily, still that does not and should not prevent me from noticing something unequal.

Where is it written that one can only post when one has a problem?

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 4:45 PM EDT

Doesn't normally stop you now does it? ;)

QBRanger March 10 2008 4:46 PM EDT

"Add to that the fact that the SoD is a perfect opponent for a large GA. If you train a large GA and I hit all your team at once I get back by GA four times in a round. That doesn't happen to an archer."

What?!?!?!

Ever hear of DM? Works wonders on GA and a lot of missile tanks use it.

Works for both bows and slings.

That should have nothing to do with this post. One can also use the statement "Elb's do so much damage, archers will kill themselves with GA. That does not happen with a sling."

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 5:12 PM EDT

Yeah, the GA argument is kind of a wash because of DM... If I built a pure explosive-shot tank, you can bet I would train DM. Why would I train anything else? If you have the quick kill, use DM to make it all the quicker.

It would be neat of Double Trouble where an explosive shot/fireball mage combo with big DM... *smile* That would be a very interesting mix of damage styles, all spreadfire...

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 5:36 PM EDT

In Glory's case he could put an AoI on his front minion so that the SoD targets the DB wearer...or move the DBs to the front minion. If the SoD can't hit the team then there's no splash damage....

Relic March 10 2008 6:33 PM EDT

JW: I am not looking for strat advice, though I appreciate your thoughts. I simply want a bit more equality in regard to the massive damage the sod/exshot can deal out with no exp necessary when compared with an archer.

When I hit with a MsK for 200K and the same minion wielding a SoD is able to hit 1 to 5 minions for 200K each AND not have to train anything to allow that hit to take place, there is a slight problem period.

I know there are ways to combat both archers and slings but that is not the point here, please try and keep somewhat on topic. :)

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 10 2008 8:39 PM EDT

The Bow of the Night [5x1350] (+135) worth $35,769,687 owned by Glory (Bleys)

I'm currently equipping a named SoD x1330. Here's some of the play-by-play from a recent battle:

Freddy Benelli's explosive shot hit Lachesis [127330], Clotho [50932], Atropos [50932], Nemesis [44855]

Freddy Benelli's explosive shot hit Lachesis [144115], Clotho [57646], Atropos [57646], Nemesis [51515]

Total damage for one hit is just above 300k across 4 minions in the higher of those two shots.
I'm not seeing 200k per minion. The splash damage is not equal to the initial hit. I'll also note that Clotho and Atropos have very little damage reduction, so I doubt splash damage pre-AC/TOE/Prot is higher than 60k.
I'll also note that, once the other team's minion count has been whittled down, I'm not hitting for 300k on the last minion. I think the highest I got the last time through my fightlist was about 170k against one minion. In that way, the spread damage is entirely unlike that of Fireball.

A couple other things to consider:
1. If a team has an Evasion wall who dodges my initial blow, I don't do damage to anyone on the team. Mageseekers, on the other hand, can bypass an Evasion wall and go right for the mage (assuming the mage himself doesn't have too large of an Evasion).
2. If the damage dealer is not first in a line of minions, I'm only doing 50k damage to them per shot. I could be getting hit by 3 Magic Missiles for 4 rounds before I've taken out the front wall, while you could take out one of the mages each round with a 200k-damage shot (or even 2 or 3, as your + is above 100, and you have a DX advantage).
3. Against single minion teams, I do less damage per hit than you do.
4. My lower damage per minion hit is much more succeptible to full GA backlash, whereas GA effect is reduced the higher your damage is above the effective GA level.

Basically, my ability to hit and the order in which I kill minions is entirely dependent upon the Evasion, damage reduction, and HP of the first minion in line (or the second, if the first is wearing an AoI). You have the advantage of killing the minion that will hurt you the most with your first shot.

ExBow/AxBow are counter-tank weapons, to neuter a team's offense.
MsK is a counter-mage weapon, to neuter a team's offense.
ELBow is the highest damage weapon, to hopefully take out the whole team before melee.
SoD is a multi-minion team weapon, to hopefully leave only easy clean-up for melee.

As for Archery, I'm all for it doing something positive, rather than being an XP-sapping requirement for archers. Remember the good ol' days of CB1, when Archery made you fire in the second round of ranged, while others couldn't? Wasn't there also some point where it increased damage done, after all ranged was changed to fire in all 3 rounds?

As for Sut's idea of Training FB to make shots explosive/arrows flaming, etc, would it also apply to melee? I.e. UC minions get flaming handwraps?

Relic March 10 2008 8:52 PM EDT

Talk to me when you are double the MPR and we will be seeing a lot more than the damage you are doing. You are half my MPR, you are not a good comparison. Have a look at Soul Collector if you want to compare someone to me.

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 8:53 PM EDT

LOL! Why not! Let's turn this mother out! "The Flaming Hand Strike of the Sarkuru Na-Ka Chuck Norris"!

Make it less binary and more combinatorial! It's almost as good as Ranger's idea for mage skills (separate thread).

I'm retraining right now...

QBRanger March 10 2008 9:20 PM EDT

Colonel,

How dare you compare yourself to Glory.

First, you have 750k str to his 1.6M, of course you will do less damage.

Second, and most importantly, you use HGs, NOT BGs. Even though they were fixed, they still give 3% per level. So assuming Glory's is +12, that is 36% more damage.

Given the 2 things, if your strength was Glory's and you used his BG's, you would do nearly the amount Glory is stating he sees-about 200k a minion vs his 200k for ONE minion.

On a 4 minion team, that is very much more. And you do not need a skill to boot!!

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 3:42 AM EDT

What is this crap about the SoD doing the same damage to all minions in a team? It does the same as a mageseeker to the minion it hits; then about a third of that damage to each of the rest of the team for the splash damage.

If you're going to state figures then at least be accurate, instead of making up numbers to suit your argument.

AdminNightStrike March 11 2008 3:59 AM EDT

I probably missed this in the thread.. but how does a UC minion fit into this plan?

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 4:01 AM EDT

I asked that near the beginning NS. Here's Ranger's answer:

'Now, for UC minions, O well. They cannot use a bow properly so why should they be able to use a sling with exshots properly. Let them use the xbows properly. But this is just my opinion on UC as a skill anyway."

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 11 2008 4:03 AM EDT

You know Archery is getting closed to being balanced when they start really crying poor and pointing fingers

AdminNightStrike March 11 2008 7:36 AM EDT

Limited a UC minion to only a cross bow is not a good idea, I think. Doing so limits their attacking ability to tanks only.

QBRanger March 11 2008 8:30 AM EDT

"You know Archery is getting closed to being balanced when they start really crying poor and pointing fingers"

I think the latest change went far beyond balancing. I gave specific examples of how large my damage is very most average foes. That is when I hit them with my MsK.

Add in the 1/3rd str cost of archery vs the "free" xp cost of a SoD and it is no contest right now.

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 8:34 AM EDT

Lets not forget your constant seeking ability while using a mageseeker. It's not like you're completely hard done by is it?

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 8:35 AM EDT

And before you say that you're lucky to hit things with the bow thanks to evasion, that applies to the SoD too.

QBRanger March 11 2008 8:39 AM EDT

"And before you say that you're lucky to hit things with the bow thanks to evasion, that applies to the SoD too."

100% true!

However, a SoD user does not have to have 1/3 of his strength into a skill just to have a normal chance to hit. For me that is 1.5M levels of archery. All those levels spent in dexterity would be a massive help for me. But, alas, I have to have them in archery just to know how to draw the bow string back correctly. Opposed to just swinging a rope with a piece of leather on the end correctly.

Before the most recent changes, that is the AoF familiar superboost, and the archery nerf, I was beating people with some room to spare. Now vs a few, I have very little room. This certainly was an archery nerf, a huge one for me. Maybe because my bow is only 100M and not 200M NW.

I feel bad for archers like Soxjr who now must pray for a rare hit, or turn mage.

Windwalker March 11 2008 8:43 AM EDT

JW, When are these guys going to learn that when the guys at the top start hollering about this or that being too much,it isn't because they want to help us poor guys down the ladder. Hardly. When something gets changed who do you think it hurts the most? Those put upon monsters at the top? If they lose a certain percentage of something it hardly compares to the cost for smaller players trying to make a dent.

QBRanger March 11 2008 8:53 AM EDT

WW,

You are so wrong.

Look at my posts in the past.

I was having little problems winning, but saw the problems evasion was giving lesser MPR characters.

Does a weapon cap help or hurt me? Think about it-- it hurts me.

I am just asking in this thread for SoD/bows to be balanced/equal. Right now, SoD users get to use that nice weapon free of xp charge.

Let us look at it:

Elb-very high damage, hits 1 minion.
MsK-average damage, autoseeks mages, less effective vs other tanks.
SoD-average damage. damages all minions on a character.

All 3 weapons have excellent benefits, which in my opinion offset each other. Do you want to do massive damage, or autoseek mages, or damage all minions on a character?

The choices are great, however the xp cost is unequal. That is what we are typing about in this thread.

This was not designed to say whether or not missile damage is or is not too high now. Others got this thread off track.

The key question: Should SOD users get the ability to use their SOD to its full capacity without having to invest xp while archery have to invest a lot of xp?

That is the question of the thread. Please answer that. And if no, why do you feel that way. Are the Elb and MsK that much more powerful then the SoD, archers have to "waste" 1/3 their str in xp to balance it?

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 9:00 AM EDT

"I am just asking in this thread for SoD/bows to be balanced/equal. Right now, SoD users get to use that nice weapon free of xp charge. "


Howabout we balance all weapons that do something like that..SoD users may get to use the weapon free of xp charge. But if we want balance howabout we make mageseeker an ability or a spell that needs changing? How about doing away with the Morg's free VA and make people train it? Or make seeking xbow users train that as an ability?

Do you see where I'm going with this Ranger? All these things have their own unique thing? If you really want to balance it, do it along the lines of all the weapons by making the special quality built in.

QBRanger March 11 2008 9:21 AM EDT

JW,

I must be very dense then.

The trade off for the Morg is the less damage then the equivalent Bone. I suspect Jon makes the Bone the top damage for melee and titrated the MH to do less with the VA trade off.

To use the MsK we have to train archery.

To use the Elb we have to train archery.

To use the SoD we have to train nada, nothing, zippo, zilch, zero.

What is the trade off for the SoD? I believe the ability to hit all minions is equivalent to that of the MsK's autoseek. Remember vs tanks the MsK does average damage at best. Proved by my posts above. About 500k a hit vs a 200AC minion WITHOUT a ToE. This with 4.6M strength and x3500.

Yes, vs mages, it is good. Vs ToE mages, it is average at best. I do 100-200k damage a hit, when I hit vs Conundrum. Not that great.

The SoD is good vs mages and tank.

Again, in my pathetic mind, which apparently is pretty stupid, the SoD/Elb/MsB are are very equivalent items in their abilities/damage/power.

Perhaps I am to dense to see the SoD is not nearly as powerful as I believe.

Phrede March 11 2008 9:22 AM EDT

Why does everything have to be equal? The reason I went SoD is that Archery was nerfed (immediately after the change I checked my Elbow against some older stats a day or so previous on the same character)

If you make everything equal then what is the point in having different weapons - we may as well have one ranged and one Melee. The point as I see it, since that great change a long time ago allowing us to replace equipment without any penalties is use the equipment that fits the battle.

QBRanger March 11 2008 9:24 AM EDT

"Or make seeking xbow users train that as an ability? "

That is a decent point.

However, I, and perhaps I alone, believe that the xbows are a notch below the SoD/MsK/Elb trio.

Specialty xbows only drain stats, which can be quite powerful (NS's for instance). However, they do little vs mages, and do little damage. Very specialized. No reason to make those users train a skill.

Again, just my thoughts. Apparently from someone who is quite dense.

QBRanger March 11 2008 9:52 AM EDT

There is a difference between equal and equivalent.

All 3 of the weapon I am typing about have different abilities but are equivalent in their perceived power. At least to my stupid mind.

They are not equal in the damage they do. Both have pluses and minuses which make choosing which one to use a great thing.

Choices.

Just like CoC and FB are equivalent in their power, they work in different ways. That is why some use CoC, others FB.

If Jon would let me trade my MsB for a SoD I certainly would and save 1.5M levels that I would pump up my HP and/or dex. Or learn some evasion to stop NS's exbow from hitting me and use my EB's instead.

I am not asking for a SoD damage nerf, just for SoD users to have to spend as much xp to use their weapon as bow users have to.

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 10:12 AM EDT

"If Jon would let me trade my MsB for a SoD I certainly would and save 1.5M levels that I would pump up my HP and/or dex. Or learn some evasion to stop NS's exbow from hitting me and use my EB's instead. "

But then you'd find those big GAs up by you to be the pain I described earlier. So you'd have to train DM instead.

QBRanger March 11 2008 10:24 AM EDT

You forget about my TOE.

But again this is not a strategy thread.

It is just comparing the SoD to the bows and the lack of xp SoD users have to put into their skill to use it effectively.

Comparing the inequality I perceive in the situation.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 11 2008 10:31 AM EDT

You don't "have" to train archery to use the bows. You only do for that 0.1cth, or are you better of training dex instead of archery?

Relic March 11 2008 10:43 AM EDT

Ok rather than using conjecture, which most threads contain. Let's look at some hard numbers.

Ancient_Anubis - Soul Collector
MPR: 1,405,364
Won Battles: 35,240
Most Powerful Blow: 1,068,501

Glory - Bleys
MPR: 1,353,294
Won Battles: 33,145
Most Powerful Blow: 761,536

Both MPB were before the ranged damage nerf, but the percentage spread is still the same.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Death Sling [5x1120] (+112)
Soul Assassin cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (95,500)
Soul Assassin cast Protection on all friendly Minions (26)

Soul Assassin ST: 1,927,800 - 743,924 = 1,183,876

Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Brand [274431], Corwin [98996], Random [100864]
Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Brand [389641], Corwin [140445], Random [143569]

Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Corwin [275227], Random [118527]
Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Corwin [264431], Random [113377]

Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Random [281435]

Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Random [261470]
Soul Assassin's explosive shot hit Random [247146]


Average Damage per hit: 208,427
Total Damage: 2,709,551

______________________________________________________________________________________

The Bow of the Night [5x1350] (+135)
rand cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (743924)
Corwin cast Antimagic Field on Soul Necromancer (0.59)
Corwin's Protection fizzles under Dispel Magic

Random ST: 1,879,545

Random shot Soul Necromancer with The Bow of the Night [291292]
Random skewered Soul Necromancer with The Bow of the Night [322411]

Random shot Soul Assassin with The Bow of the Night [252203]
Random hit Soul Assassin with The Bow of the Night [301746]

Random hit Soul Assassin with The Bow of the Night [282839]
Random shot Soul Assassin with The Bow of the Night [258516]

Random struck deep into Soul Assassin with The Bow of the Night [177261]
Random struck deep into Soul Assassin with The Bow of the Night [271503]

Average Damage per hit: 269,721
Total Damage: 2,157,771

______________________________________________________________________________________

As you can plainly see. I am doing an average damage of 61K more per round with 700K more ST, BG's adding 36% more damage, AND 230 more x on my bow than his SoD. I also have 5 mil exp trained into Archery.

However, he is doing MORE damage overall by almost 700K, with less ST, a smaller weapon, no BG's and NO EXTRA EXP necessary to hit me multiple times in a round. Also I am using a ToA and he is not.

Now who can seriously tell me that SoD is not unevenly balanced?

Talion March 11 2008 10:50 AM EDT

Glory, try that again against an opponent training GA...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 11 2008 10:50 AM EDT

You're comparing a front hitting weapon to a cup of hot mage death and crying unbalanced?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 11 2008 10:52 AM EDT

Do those hard numbers tell us that much though - you forgo extra damage available with a ELB to gain the mageseeking ability, the damage done by the SoD depends on minion count. Which is better at hitting when evasion / DB are in the mix etc

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 10:53 AM EDT

Who says he's not using belegs? He appears to be wearing these:

A Pair of Misanthropic Gauntlets [3] (+14)

Talion March 11 2008 10:56 AM EDT

Talion wishes everyone would use a SoD so he could train a HP/Evasion/DM wall and let his DD minion and familiar do their damage while the SoD tanks keep missing during the first 3 or 4 rounds or range.

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 11:04 AM EDT

I'm off now. But I want to say this: most of the people arguing with the original suggestion have used the SoD. And yes it is powerful. Very powerful. But in my own experience no more or less powerful than using an ELB was. Or a Morg.

I mention the Morg because I happen to think it's the most powerful weapon in the game. It's the only way to come out of a battle with twice as much HP as you went in with. And still not have to worry about opponents using DM. And do some of the largest melee weapon damage.

Now, if the SoD isn't fairly balanced then the Morg certainly isn't. So, lets change the Morg shall we? Who's with me?

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 11:05 AM EDT

lol

QBRanger March 11 2008 11:35 AM EDT

"But in my own experience no more or less powerful than using an ELB was"

In NO place were Glory or I typing about it being more powerful overall. It does more damage to minions in total but does not have the mage seeking ability.

However, archers need to have archery trained very high to use their bow properly. Yes, we can use it without archery but then forget about hitting evasion minions, even low evasion ones. And hitting non-evasion minions, perhaps 1-2 times a round at most.

All this thread was pointing out and asking for is to make SoD users have to pay the same hefty price to use their SoD as archers do.

Seems that JW agrees with some of my points.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 11 2008 11:36 AM EDT

I think this thread deserves a pleasant "no" from Jon

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 11:46 AM EDT

I do agree with some of them. Just not the bit about the extra XP. Archers choose to do archery. Maybe some of them would choose the SoD instead but are scared because of what happened to the VB. But they're still free to choose the SoD if they so wish. Nobody's forcing their hand. It's been fairly obvious that ranged would get nerfed in some way for a long time; far more worries/complaints about that across the board. And yet people have still invested in bows.

I don't think it's fear of nerfing that stop people investing in the SoD. Especially now ex-shot is readily available. I think it's that archers are actually capable of more damage than SoD users at smaller levels of NW. The SoD is a great weapon - I wouldn't have invested 50 million into mine if I didn't think so. But it's a great weapon when it's big. Or when the tank is strong. Or both. And without Beleg's it's not worth anything. Really it's not.

I'm more concerned with the fact that you HAVE to train archery to use a bow. I hated that change personally, it stopped UC, bloodlust and evasion tanks using one effectively. It's why I started to use the SoD. If you guys want to push for equality push that way. I'll be in total agreement with you on that.

lostling March 11 2008 12:11 PM EDT

1stly SOD + exp shots = GA death... yes even with DM...
2ndly SOD = 80% penalty to PTH/CTH in me lee <--- enuff said
3rdly just rearrange if your being killed so much -.-

lostling March 11 2008 12:22 PM EDT

he has evasion and you dont? and your complaining about not doing as much damage? if he didnt have evasion you would be doing way more damage yes?

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 11 2008 12:40 PM EDT

"As for Archery, I'm all for it doing something positive, rather than being an XP-sapping requirement for archers. Remember the good ol' days of CB1, when Archery made you fire in the second round of ranged, while others couldn't? Wasn't there also some point where it increased damage done, after all ranged was changed to fire in all 3 rounds?" -- Me, in my last post.

You're right, Ranger. I made elementary mistakes in data analysis by failing to use comparable variables. My bad.

I agree with you guys about Archery being a waste of both experience and a skill slot. On the other hand, I understand how it would make sense that an archer is more or less useless without having Archery trained, because how are you going to do anything useful with a weapon you don't know how to use? But Archery is unbalanced vs. other skills.
Bloodlust makes an already-powerful mellee attack better.
Evasion makes a not-necessarily-extant defensive DX very powerful.
Junction makes a familiar more powerful.
Archery makes your cth... 100% of what it should be? (and 90% with Mageseekers)

If you have to forfeit BL, PL, Junction, Evasion, and UC in order to use a bow, that limits strategy options severly.

The way I see it, though, given the current state of things, is that you shouldn't use a bow unless you intend that to be your only source of damage (at least on that minion). Archery should be a skill intended to render bows super-effective, given the trade-off that other skills can't be trained. If you intend to use a melee weapon (i.e. expect the battle to last until melee regardless), then the SoD is a much preferable option for ranged.

I feel like my thought is incomplete, but my mind just went completely blank. Enjoy what little input I've given.

QBRanger March 11 2008 1:34 PM EDT

"I'm more concerned with the fact that you HAVE to train archery to use a bow. I hated that change personally, it stopped UC, bloodlust and evasion tanks using one effectively. It's why I started to use the SoD. If you guys want to push for equality push that way. I'll be in total agreement with you on that. "

That would be perfect fine with me. Just something to even things out.


Windwalker March 11 2008 4:07 PM EDT

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. I had to work. I see that everyone was aware that using certain weapons in ranged came with their own particular bonuses and handicaps. I just think it's a choice. I don't cry foul when someone beats me with Huge GA. Or say man thats wrong,he has so much EC trained my SoD hits like a noodle. That simply has to be changed! Someone has so much Evasion I cant even hit them.Something must be done! We all run into these things.Part of the game I thought.So, I examine my strat and try and determine what can be done to overcome these strats. It is what it is. Thats what makes it fun,and a challenge.For guys to just throw up their hands and say help me Jon I dont like this,is just wrong. SoD and X-shot are not better or worse than any other ranged weapon,just different.

QBRanger March 11 2008 4:46 PM EDT

"SoD and X-shot are not better or worse than any other ranged weapon,just different."

I never stated they were better or worse.

But why does an archer have to spend 1/3rd his/her strength on archery while a SoD user does not ave to spend anything?

Answer that WW.

Windwalker March 11 2008 4:52 PM EDT

Gee Ranger because its not a bow. Doesn't archery imply bow?

QBRanger March 11 2008 4:58 PM EDT

I know it is not a bow.

So why do archers have to spend the xp on a skill to use their bow properly and SoD users have to spend 0 xp?

Do you not understand the entire thread?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 11 2008 5:00 PM EDT

Because the bow is more powerful... end of discussion.

QBRanger March 11 2008 5:10 PM EDT

End for you novice.

Others admit in the threads the SoD is just as powerful as the bows. Rightly so.

I guess it boils down to that.

Ask yourself: Is the SOD just as powerful as the MsB or the Elb? Each have their benefits but are the 2 bows that much more powerful to need that much xp to use the properly.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 11 2008 5:14 PM EDT

Archers train archery to become capable of using their weapons. They can continue to use bows on into melee. For people who use slings that isn't possible. A sling becomes the same as an archer without archery in melee.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 11 2008 5:17 PM EDT

Using bows in melee is hardly feasible. You drop down to 40% of your original DX and +. Have fun trying to hit anything.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 11 2008 5:22 PM EDT

I have to bring up 1 other point. The cost of upgrading the weapons themselves. Upgrading the + on both MsK and ELB are cheaper than upgrading on the SoD. The cost of x is 8700 for both MsK and SoD and ELB is 7798.

This in itself would make weapons of the same nw have higher + and x on the bows than the SoD.

Relic March 11 2008 8:03 PM EDT

If you cannot see the imbalance in my example, I give up. I am done trying to have a discussion where facts mean nothing and conjecture and emotion rule the thread.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 11 2008 8:09 PM EDT

It's not the SoD that's the problem.

It's not even archery.

Yes archers have to spend more XP, but as said above, the Bows are quite frankly better damagers.

The problem is Ex Shots.

I've loved (cus I think the idea of a splash wepaon is brilliant) and hated (Rare? Common? Camped and abused) Ex Shots since thier introduction.

If there were no Ex shots, and Slingers were throwing Pebbles or Iron Shot, this topic wouldn't exist.

Relic March 11 2008 8:12 PM EDT

Exactly GL, that is why I suggested a skill for exploding shots from iron shots.

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 8:13 PM EDT

"If there were no Ex shots, and Slingers were throwing Pebbles or Iron Shot, this topic wouldn't exist."

And the SoD would be a compound bow. ;)

QBRanger March 11 2008 10:14 PM EDT

So again,

Glory is suggesting that in order to properly use explosive shots one has to train a skill. Otherwise the sling functions like a compound bow the iron shots.

Again, why is this concept hard to grasp?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 11 2008 10:20 PM EDT

I can grasp it, he may well be right but posting an incomplete and misleading analysis and calling it definitive is not the way to convince me.

QBRanger March 11 2008 10:40 PM EDT

Ok,, here is some more data.

I have a x3500 named MsK and a x1000 named SoD:

The MsK is +220, the SoD is x101:

Base arrows x1, base exshots x1:

MsK x3500 vs NWO:

The Grid shot Chaos's familiar with Spiral [935455]
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (100459)
The Grid shot Chaos's familiar with Spiral [746845]
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (80434)
The Grid hit Chaos's familiar with Spiral [633891]
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (69495)

SoD x1000 vs NWO:

The Grid's explosive shot hit Riot [286870], Noise [141009], Chaos [145095], Chaos's familiar [143700], Anarchy [121430]
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (31898)
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15079)
Chaos's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (16199)
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (16182)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (13117)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Riot [371355], Noise [180291], Chaos [188264], Chaos's familiar [187471], Anarchy [155622]
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (41667)
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (20254)
Chaos's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (20563)
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21061)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (16574)

Total damage from the SoD: 820,000 first hit, 1,083,000 second hit.



MsK x3500 vs Dixie Cousins:

The Grid shot The Showgirl with Spiral [781422]

The Grid shot The Showgirl with Spiral [606887]

SoD x1000 vs Dixie Cousins:

The Grid's explosive shot hit Mrs. County, eventually [463965], The Showgirl [207271], Kano-san [53133], Dolly's Twin [212287], Big Smith's Ex [204718]

The Grid's explosive shot hit Mrs. County, eventually [306245], The Showgirl [137145], Kano-san [35397], Dolly's Twin [141162], Big Smith's Ex [135142]

Total damage from the SoD: 1,114,000 first hit, 755,000 second hit


MsK x3500 vs Reda Luu:

The Grid hit Xevious with Spiral [756691]
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xevious's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (68940)
The Grid shot Xevious with Spiral [728473]
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xevious's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (65188)

SoD x1000 vs Reda Luu:

The Grid's explosive shot hit Xevious [415370], Xihar [142683], Xero [151137]
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xevious's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (31772)
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xihar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (1292)
Xero's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (16156)

The Grid's explosive shot hit Xevious [373393], Xihar [127804], Xero [134381]
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xevious's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (25993)
Xero absorbs damage [127804]
Xero's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14756)

Total SoD damage: 709,000 first hit, 636,000 second hit.

Conclusions:

At x1000, the SoD does more damage vs a 5 minion character. However, vs a 3 minion tank team, it seems to do just as much total damage. This all at x1000 vs x3500. Imagine if my SoD was x3500!!!

Do we need even more data posted?

Little Anthony March 11 2008 11:00 PM EDT

did you minus your own HP from GA? given that GA would be bigger if your SOD is bigger also.?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 11 2008 11:11 PM EDT

wouldn't have to worry about that....cause as soon as he starts losing HP he gains it back via Tsa...

QBRanger March 11 2008 11:11 PM EDT

LA,

Is an Elb worse then a MsK since it does more damage and therefore you take more GA?

Is a 3M CoC worse then a 2M CoC due to more GA?

Is a dagger better then a ELS since it does less damage therefore you take less GA?

Of course not.

One cannot use that discussion, IE more damage=more GA.

DM can take care of it, and a TOE/AC/protection can. Or in some cases, just having a butt load of hp.

Windwalker March 11 2008 11:40 PM EDT

Ranger, Funny you should mention a SoD thats x3000. I just happen to have one of those and I can tell you that the results I get against those common opponents is entirely different. NWO lose, Dixie lose, and Reda Lu you guessed it,lose. The numbers that you post will be considerably different than what anyone else can do. Having said that. I will say that I see your point. I just don't agree.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 11 2008 11:43 PM EDT

"Splash damage is exactly 40% of original damage when damage reduction is not a factor." -- The wiki

This is off-topic, but interesting, at least to me.
The fight log excerpted by Ranger against Dixie Cousins really emphasizes the effect that the Jiggy's innate Endurance has on damage. It looks like, if the other "splashed-on" minions are taking ~40% of the original damage, then the Endurance trained by the JKF gives about 70% damage reduction by itself. That's impressive to me.

New Theory: The SoD is designed such as it is in order to enable research to be done into the effect of Endurance on damage reduction. Jon wanted to promote community involvement through collaborative research through the introduction of Ex Shot, and found that it would be counter-productive to build in a "deterrent" such as having to train something-or-other to a level relative to ST.

I'm still pushing for Archery to be made a positive skill, rather than a non-negative (or "minimizing-the-negatives") skill. Though I don't share your pain, I do sympathize, and agree.

QBRanger March 11 2008 11:46 PM EDT

WW,

You lose since your strategy and mine are vastly different. Our MPR is different. Also, you use a TOA while I use a TOE. With it I equip a TSA on my tank. That combo allows me to live vs GA a lot longer than you.

I am comparing the MsK and SoD on my character with more then twice the strength of yours.

I can lend you my MsK and you can see for yourself the damage that the 2 weapons do. You will see your SoD does a lot more damage. My MsK is +220 so you, of course, will hit far more. And since you may hit more, you may win.

One cannot compare damages and results on different characters. Anyone who has taken a basic statistics class should know that. It was taught first week in my Sample Survey Design class. A bit more advanced class but still.

FYI, before I became a physician, I was a statistics major in college.

QBRanger March 11 2008 11:48 PM EDT

How about this WW:

Lend me your SoD for an hour when we both are on.

I will use it and fight a few battles, and post the results.

I am sure they will shock you.

QBRanger March 12 2008 12:11 AM EDT

With a x3000 named SoD:

Vs NWO:

The Grid's explosive shot hit Riot [600213], Noise [283644], Chaos [292155], Chaos's familiar [290733], Anarchy [252645]
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (63858)
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (30538)
Chaos's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (32378)
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (31006)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (27600)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Riot [744744], Noise [361260], Chaos [373450], Chaos's familiar [373901], Anarchy [307330]
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (84045)
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (39476)
Chaos's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (40566)
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (39649)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (33771)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Riot [541936], Noise [264773], Chaos [273548], Chaos's familiar [276738], Anarchy [226203]
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (59226)
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (28328)
Chaos's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (29968)
Chaos's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (30862)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (24702)


Vs Dixie Cousins:

The Grid's explosive shot hit Mrs. County, eventually [594453], The Showgirl [270253], Kano-san [68913], Dolly's Twin [277104]
The Grid's explosive shot hit Mrs. County, eventually [746483], The Showgirl [336271], Kano-san [92645], Dolly's Twin [346860]

Vs Reda Luu:

The Grid's explosive shot hit Xevious [599558], Xihar [203419], Xero [218405]
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xevious's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (49760)
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xihar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (7952)
Xero's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (24553)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Xevious [738376], Xihar [252221], Xero [266018]
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xevious's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (66667)
Xero absorbs damage [130323]
Xihar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (13499)
Xero's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (29478)

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 12:19 AM EDT

I don't care. You're wrong.

Relic March 12 2008 12:23 AM EDT

Ok how about at least lessening the base damage on exshots? They are no longer rare, so shouldn't they have less base damage?

QBRanger March 12 2008 12:42 AM EDT

Yes Sut,

We know contrary to all the data out there, you will disagree with almost anything I post. You one of those people who still believe the earth is flat, even though people have already sailed around it? Since you have not, they all must be wrong?

But for those who actually can read the data, what more do I need to show?

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 4:38 AM EDT

"Glory, 12:23 AM EDT [collapse]
Ok how about at least lessening the base damage on exshots? They are no longer rare, so shouldn't they have less base damage? "

So it's not actually about how unfair that SoD users don't have to train a skill then?

You just want their damage lowered really don't you, so you can beat them.....

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 5:04 AM EDT

While the SoD may do pretty much equivalent damage to - for example - the mages/familiars in your examples as a mageseeker, it does so over several rounds. Whereas - in your fight against NWO - you hit the familiar for that damage in the first round, which from my own experience is far more useful. The longer that familiar lives the more damage you take from it.

What would you prefer? Take out the team slowly, or get rid of the damage dealers and take your time picking off the rest? Regardless of the amount of damage dealt, which is more effective here?

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 5:11 AM EDT

I also notice that Ancient Anubis' char, which Glory used as an equivalent team using a SoD now draws against Glory's char. So apparently the imbalance actually evens out against an archer team. Meanwhile Glory gets stomped by people using bows and Morgs on teams of equivalent size. If what Glory and Ranger were saying was true, that there was an imbalance, wouldn't the opposite actually be the case?

Ancient Anubis March 12 2008 5:38 AM EDT

hi people only just seen this. noticed i was brought being closest glory's character in mpr.

AS someone pointed out my bgs are +14 witch is 42% 6% more than Glory's also not sure of the effect but my ex shots are x1 (normal) + 2 (upgraded), lastly what i didn't see mentioned was my protection was 26% so i believe that means his damage was only at 75% against me which is a loss of 80-85k per shot i think it was.

Can i also say that at the moment my fightlist is highly limited even with my sod exp free advantage. Most mages seem to dodge me with evasion even at the start it was hard, u look at all the best ncb starts for first week and there almost all mages. And in comparison to tanks UCs kick my [admin edit]: unpg and i'm even getting beaten by single archer teams, as well as combo archer teams, with archery who are up to 700k mpr lower than me.

One of the reasons i had to get another minion and i believe the same was for freed is that by the themselves u can't actually beat that many people, like everything its the structure and combination within the team not just the individual parts.

Oh and by the way glory is beating me more and more on a regular basis from what i gather, even with the mprs staying within 60kmpr of each other

Ancient Anubis March 12 2008 5:43 AM EDT

well glory drew twice in lattest battle log but he has beaten me on occasion its not like i flog him every time that's why he ain't in my fightlist

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 5:51 AM EDT

Lol.

I'll repeat this to Glory, incase he didn't catch it:

"I'm more concerned with the fact that you HAVE to train archery to use a bow. I hated that change personally, it stopped UC, bloodlust and evasion tanks using one effectively. It's why I started to use the SoD. If you guys want to push for equality push that way. I'll be in total agreement with you on that. "

If you really have a problem with having to train archery while SoD users don't, then why are you pushing at the SoD? When really the inequality is on your side of the fence? Do away with how archery works currently, bringing it back to what it was before and you're equal to a SoD user; and other tanks get to use bows without the CTH penalty. More choice for tanks, more equality for archers. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Especially as tanks have it so hard currently....

But correct me if I'm wrong; this isn't about that really is it? This is is about nerfing the SoD.

Ancient Anubis March 12 2008 6:08 AM EDT

this isn't an attack just a clarification

glory do u use an roe when u fight like me cause your tat of org and equip allows u to beat me when i have my roe on, not draw beat, so i think it would be same for u when i equip my tat and gear for defense and your attacking with roe

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 6:13 AM EDT

Actually though, let's push Jon to do away with ex shot, like he did with seekers.

And give the SoD the exploding quality, so we can have something like the mageseeker for sling users. That would get my vote.

AdminNightStrike March 12 2008 6:55 AM EDT

I still fail to see how UC tanks are handled properly by this. The byproduct is that all UC minions are forced to use crossbows.

QBRanger March 12 2008 7:33 AM EDT

"And give the SoD the exploding quality, so we can have something like the mageseeker for sling users. That would get my vote."

That was prpposed by people when exshots become common.

However that does not address the point of whether or not SoD users have to train a skill to use it properly.

Evasion is quite a problem, not just for SoD users. Bow users have that same problem and if they do not train archery, they can just forget about hitting any minion with even a small evasion.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 8:26 AM EDT

Archers have a hard life don't they. That must be why five out of the top ten standings are archer teams.

Boy they have it tough.

AdminNightStrike March 12 2008 8:53 AM EDT

Also, keep in mind that the SOD is much more expensive to upgrade on the PTH than the MSB. That alone is an inequality.

QBRanger March 12 2008 8:56 AM EDT

Who are the 5? I see Mikel, myself, and Bee. I can defeat my list without a bow with rare losses to AB. Beee wlll certainly drop 0ut of the top 10 without Freed's bow. Lega? Does not rely on the bow much, would do better with a SoD. Edy? Tells me he does just as well without a bow. I even tried a x3k SoD and did better vs some characters, ie; less rounds to beat them. If I could trade my mageseeker for a SoD and save all my archery xp, in a second I would. Just because there are more upgraded boes then slings does not signify they are better.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 9:06 AM EDT

Lega's bow certainly does a number on more than half of my offense (my familiar is bigger than my mage with AoF involved, and he kills it in two rounds).

Ranger, why is it that any point you make is right (no matter what sensible rebuttals folks have), but the points that others make are incorrect? Strange, that. I see JW and NS making a lot of sense, while I see you depending on bluster and hand-waving. Lega's not an archer? That's a ridiculous thing to say.

Lega is an archer, and he is definitely effective at it. Who says so? I say so, because, as I said, he takes out more than half my offense in two rounds using a bow. That's a physical bow kill. No rebuttal to that. I'm right. You're wrong. And Lega is fast approaching off my fightlist with all of his adjustments and his Mageseeker in action. That's the definition of "effective".

Little Anthony March 12 2008 9:07 AM EDT

Did someone post awhile back that SOD also deal damage to the already dead minion? Ranger's fight log did not quite show when the minion is dead.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 9:08 AM EDT

Ranger, if the SoD is that much better than the bow then why don't you use one instead of the mageseeker regardless? Because if it is better AND doesn't need archery you can use it without untraining your archery can't you?

What's stopping you?

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 9:18 AM EDT

LA, yes, the SoD can keep piling on damage to a corpse (as can any physical blow). In the case of explosive shot, that becomes an advantage for attacker (is usually a disadvantage because the tank is wasting time hacking at a dead guy). Explosive shot allows the splash damage to continue, so there is really no such thing as putting a pure meat shield in front any more... If the SoD hits, odds are it is going to hit several times, and fire shall reign on your poor dear minions. Definitely an advantage of the SoD.

Relic March 12 2008 9:56 AM EDT

"So it's not actually about how unfair that SoD users don't have to train a skill then?

You just want their damage lowered really don't you, so you can beat them....."

No, I am trying to compromise, say it with me JW, compromise.

I draw against Soul Collector with my ToA on. I am trying to demonstrate the need for a skill be required for slings. You obviously do not agree, why? Maybe because you use a SoD. :)

Bang for the buck, SoD does more damage than my MsK due to higher base damage on the ammo and same base damage on the MsK, without needing any exp. That is the problem. What if there was a super powerful DD spell item that required no exp at all to hit for huge amounts? Yes, I know you need ST and DX, but slap a ToA on and bam your sling is super effective. The same cannot be said for a bow.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 10:07 AM EDT

I'll repeat what I said then...

"If you really have a problem with having to train archery while SoD users don't, then why are you pushing at the SoD? When really the inequality is on your side of the fence? Do away with how archery works currently, bringing it back to what it was before and you're equal to a SoD user; and other tanks get to use bows without the CTH penalty. More choice for tanks, more equality for archers. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Especially as tanks have it so hard currently.... "

Wouldn't doing away with that xp you have tied up in archery be a better compromise? Lets anybody use a SoD or a bow, regardless of what skill they train. Frees archers up to be evasion or UC, frees bloodlust tanks to use a bow in a decent manner.

Yes I own a SoD, and yes I like the SoD as it is. But as I stated earlier in the thread the reason I own the SoD is because using a bow is tied into archery. Otherwise I'd have been using an elb or a mageseeker.

As it stands to get mage seeking abilities and be effective using them you have to train archery. No other ranged attack has a mage seeking ability.

So, sorry I'm still not seeing the inequalities. As it stands all I'm seeing is people on pretty level footing. Just with different ways of fighting.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 10:08 AM EDT

Is this a valid summary, pros and cons:

BOWS:
PROS:
-- Offer choices: mage seeking or high-powered ELB.
-- Standard x upgrade costs.
-- Cheaper + upgrade costs
CONS:
-- Require MPR investment (Archery skill) to be effective.
-- No ability for "spreadfire" offense (no explosive shot).

SoD:
PROS:
-- Explosive shot. It is now basically as plentiful as arrows, so is no longer an issue.
-- No need to invest in additional MPR to be effective (at least, as effective as it would be anyway).
-- Standard x upgrade cost.
CONS:
-- More expensive + upgrades

Is that what we have so far? If so, that does indeed put a lot of weight on that single SoD "con"... PTH is damn important, though. How much more expensive is it? Are explosive shots cheaper than arrows to upgrade + on?

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 10:13 AM EDT

One more thing:

Bow -- CON = Cannot use with UC.
SoD -- PRO = Can use with UC.
SoD -- CON = less damage to main target, less overall on lesser-minioned targets.

This pro/con pair gets right into the gist of the whole skill thing, so it is all pretty much intertwined. That's why this comparison is not entirely straightforward.

I am very curious about the + on the SoD, and ability to more cheaply upgrade the + on sling ammo. Unless that cost is quite a bit more than for bows, the SoD does have distinct advantages as I see it, even with the lesser damage. But it also still needs to be something a UC tank can use (in my opinion), so in that regard cannot require an additional skill.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 12 2008 10:31 AM EDT

Also SoD -- PRO = can use with evasion :)

Is the base to hit 100% on the SoD or less? Which has the higher penalties in early ranged rounds?

If it were to change I would rather see something other than a skill introduced.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 10:33 AM EDT

I'm for choice on this Sut, I really would be for reducing, even removing the amount an archer has to invest in his skill, and even removing the penalty for using the bow without archery. As it stands, you can use bows without archery, but the amount of hits you can do is severely cut down without it. So bloodlust tanks and UC tanks and evasion tanks are pretty much stuck with xbows and SoDs if they want to get the most for their money.

And as for UC: Way, way back at the start of the post I asked "what about UC?"

Ranger: "Now, for UC minions, O well. They cannot use a bow properly so why should they be able to use a sling with exshots properly. Let them use the xbows properly. But this is just my opinion on UC as a skill anyway. "


In terms of pro's and con's you're pretty much on it. You can also add ex shot special abilities useless against single minions, splash damage reduced by RBF. A mageseeker is just a bow against other tanks.

Tezmac March 12 2008 10:35 AM EDT

Just from a rudimentary look, iron shots seem cheaper. Didnt have exshot to look at.

616 Arrows [8x1] (+0)
to +7 is $1,889
to +14 is $7,938
to +21 is $16,487

617 Iron Shots [8x1] (+0)
to +7 is $1,434
to +14 is $6,027
to +21 is $12,517

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 10:38 AM EDT

520 exshot to +7 is $1714

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 12 2008 10:40 AM EDT

I have always thought the mageseeker damage was poor and preferred the ELB since seeing the large difference between them. It seemed to me that Jon had given it quite a sizeable penalty to get that special ability and rightly so. This was partially hidden by the BG thing. Now with evasion and ranged weapons in a controversial and tricky balance the MSK effectiveness may have suffered more than the SoD.

I could say yes you have a point nerf SoD or tough luck you backed a loser ;)

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 10:44 AM EDT

So, an advantage for arrows there -- + upgrades on exshot appears to be more per shot. Bows have the + advantage all around.

It really comes down to that skill slot. RD's point is good -- SoD and Evasion is a nice combo -- evading ranged blows while laying out some serious damage. And using UC foregoes Archery. It's hard to make a judgment here just because it comes down to that skill slot....gah, I'm in over my head!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 10:53 AM EDT

The power of the MsK has diminished with the recent fixes/changes, however it still allows an Archer to skip over as many as four minions to get to a mage, something that cannot be overstated. On my team that allows an MsK user to avoid dealing with about 13 mil HP.
Against LD, that lets them avoid a heavy wall and PL bat with a massive ToE along for the ride. It's a strat killer, this is why I just can't buy the comparison with the SoD. I'll give the SoD the nod for being a very small amount more effective overall because of ammo base and the multitude of multi minion teams. The MsK however is just a mediocre general weapon, with the ability to become a keystone of a strat, allowing a minimal investment in AMF.

Ulord[NK] March 12 2008 11:03 AM EDT

I don't quite agree with MSK being that great. The recent change has really hurt it. Besides, with proper planning, msk can be directed at evasion minion (SFBM with large exp concentration and massive dd, hire another minion and junction on a smaller tatt, for one example). 40% ranged damage cut makes its already subpar damage (compare to elbow) even more trivial with ToE figured in. MSK will not be able to take out FB mage and MM mages before they deal out significant damage. Even when they score a hit, one hit kill is pipe dream. It'll take 3 to 4 hits to kill a mage with decent hp and some defense.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 11:09 AM EDT

"QBsutekh137, 10:13 AM EDT
One more thing:

Bow -- CON = Cannot use with UC. "

just to be picky, but that's not really a con for the bow, but for UC. ;)

QBRanger March 12 2008 11:30 AM EDT

"Ranger, why is it that any point you make is right (no matter what sensible rebuttals folks have), but the points that others make are incorrect? Strange, that. I see JW and NS making a lot of sense, while I see you depending on bluster and hand-waving. Lega's not an archer? That's a ridiculous thing to say. "

Sut,

I feel no reason to hand wave and blah blah blah anymore since you will just take it as another opportunity to get nasty again.

So I will just say...

Look at the statistics I posted, look at the pros/cons of each weapon and make your decision. Is it fair archers have to spend so much xp?

Tezmac March 12 2008 11:31 AM EDT

As a few of us have said numerous times, yes.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 12 2008 11:34 AM EDT

Forget one thing you have: A bow has big draw back, you need to be trained into using it, whilst a sling or a crossbow you don't need training.
And the damage from a bow equals the STR and skill a person has, whilst a crossbow you don't need much STR or skill to shoot, nor does a sling.
(from real life)

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 11:34 AM EDT

Yes, it is fair.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 11:35 AM EDT

Oh, and to reiterate, The Lega is definitely an archer team. About that, I am right and you are incorrect. Even a casual observer can see that is true.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 12 2008 1:04 PM EDT

Sorry to point this out Sut... but Legas MSK isn't even as big as my 25 mil one... let alone his MH is about 40 some odd million... I use a MSK and archery but am I an archer team? I have over 64 mil in my MH does that make me a melee tank? I also use a RoBF, so what does that make me?

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 1:09 PM EDT

A talented player of the game Dr....;)

QBRanger March 12 2008 1:15 PM EDT

Hmmm,

How can Lega be an archer team when his tank trains evasion?

I am certain that vs evasion minions he whiffs with that "massive" MsK.

I always thought archers have to train archery to get the full effect of their bow. Anything less is uncivilized.

And I understand your statement. You do think it is fair bows vs sling and the amount of xp needed to use them. Apparently hard data does not change your thinking.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 1:27 PM EDT

He's a bow user; using a bow effectively; which I guess proves that you don't have to train archery. But there you go...

One of the reasons I've seen given in this post as to why lots of people aren't using upgraded SoDs was that 'everybody' knew they were overpowered and didn't want to get burned like they did with VBs.

Well, 'everyone' knew ranged was probably going to get nerfed. Didn't stop them jumping on the mageseeker and upgrading that (110 million in Ranger's case....). And the SoD has been around longer than the mageseeker. People didn't want to get burned upgrading the SoD...lol; that built in seeking ability is too good a quality to miss more like....

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 1:44 PM EDT

That bow on The Lega may not be as big as others but it can still hit me despite +140 DBs on and a trained evasion of (60). And do half a million damage......

QBRanger March 12 2008 1:49 PM EDT

JW,

I basically used the smell test.

The SoD smelled overpowered when I used it, so I believed it to be. I was wrong in that Jon keep it and in fact gave it a nice upgrade.

With respect to the mageseeker, Jon's view on seeker arrows are well known, that is the reason I upgraded mine.

If I had to do it over again, SoD all the way.

And how effective is Lega's bow? Vs Sut perhaps as his familiar is his highest DD caster. But if Sut would put a pair of DB's, perhaps even +50s on his familiar's minion, I think that may make Lega's bow useless vs him.

Care to try Sut?

QBRanger March 12 2008 1:51 PM EDT

JW,

It is well known that the first round of missile is quite bugged. DB's do not work in that round.

Novice made a very detailed post on it with excellent data backing his thesis.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 1:51 PM EDT

you know what... I'm going to call you on this Ranger... I'll move things back to how I previously had them and you go ahead and equip whatever SoD you want and we'll see how it works out...

SoD all the way my butt...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 1:52 PM EDT

I thought Jon had fixed dbs for everyone but Junction linked familiars?

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 2:00 PM EDT

Nope, sure don't, Ranger. I know I'm right. You know how? Because it's my opinion that SoD vs. archery is currently fair, and its a fact that the Lega is an archer. My opinion can not be wrong, by definition of the word "opinion" when asked a subjective question, and the fact that Lega is an archer is also true by definition: he has success and does damage to other teams via the use of a bow. That's an archer.

You state, in a response to me stating my opinion (right by definition): "And I understand your statement. You do think it is fair bows vs sling and the amount of xp needed to use them. Apparently hard data does not change your thinking."

I need to fix that last sentence for you: "... Apparently a tiny amount of selective test data supported by the bluster and self-centered myopia of a callow loudmouth who asked a question only to tell the answerer he was wrong for having an opinion does not change your thinking."

Well, nope. It sure doesn't.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 2:08 PM EDT

He might not be an archer, but he can and does use a bow effectively. Which kind of undermines the original post which said:

"As it stands now, I am trying to compete with SoD/ExShot minions who have to train nothing skillwise to be able to pummel my entire team, yet my Archer has to train a lot of exp into Archery just to be able to use a Bow effectively. "

So if he's not an archer, and yet able to use a bow effectively then everybody else who's training archery could actually stop and train something else more useful couldn't they?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 2:08 PM EDT

Photobucket

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 2:14 PM EDT

I forget, what is that fight log showing other than the awesome number of hit points your familiar has? *smile* DBs not working properly? DBs working properly?

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 2:16 PM EDT

But JW, you aren't getting it... No matter what we say in regards to Lega's effectiveness with a bow, the definition for "archer" and "effective" will just keep getting changed until Ranger is right. He's already decided I'm wrong for having an opinion, so isn't revisionism the next logical step?

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:17 PM EDT

That was with x3500 MsB.
This with an x1000 SoD

The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [461615], Gordon Gano [202729], Gordon Gano's familiar [204931], Brian Ritchie [200249], Guy Hoffman [197531]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (51788)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21605)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22507)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22258)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (20930)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [320477], Gordon Gano [138761], Gordon Gano's familiar [141228], Brian Ritchie [139204], Guy Hoffman [139773]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (35632)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14741)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15597)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14741)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15470)

The Grid regenerated 142,500 HP

The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [438687], Gordon Gano [197526], Gordon Gano's familiar [201450], Brian Ritchie [195203], Guy Hoffman [193896]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (46535)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21827)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21345)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21009)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21107)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [428014], Gordon Gano [187716], Gordon Gano's familiar [193221], Brian Ritchie [186496], Guy Hoffman [186245]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (45390)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (20302)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21770)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (19952)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (19789)

The Grid regenerated 142,500 HP

The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [461457], Gordon Gano [208288], Gordon Gano's familiar [210192], Brian Ritchie [204223], Guy Hoffman [201775]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (50726)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22936)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22347)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22036)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22434)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [323140], Gordon Gano [140176], Gordon Gano's familiar [145436], Brian Ritchie [139574], Guy Hoffman [141089]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (36340)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15693)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (16235)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14926)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15815)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [293792], Gordon Gano [131762], Gordon Gano's familiar [133404], Brian Ritchie [128607], Guy Hoffman [128794]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (31426)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14704)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14764)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14124)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14168)

The Grid regenerated 142,500 HP

The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [318500], Gordon Gano [138786], Gordon Gano's familiar [139647], Brian Ritchie [137942], Guy Hoffman [136820]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (35830)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15152)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15646)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15045)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (14659)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [329647], Gordon Gano [144059], Gordon Gano's familiar [144762], Brian Ritchie [143191], Guy Hoffman [141685]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (35163)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (16126)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15786)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15489)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (15318)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [441313], Gordon Gano [195709], Gordon Gano's familiar [196876], Brian Ritchie [198925], Guy Hoffman [198109]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (49366)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (22063)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21364)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21721)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (21195)

The Grid regenerated 142,500 HP

The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [407523], Gordon Gano [176541], Gordon Gano's familiar [174641], Brian Ritchie [172515], Guy Hoffman [172283]
Victor DeLorenzo's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (33689)
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (19896)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (19059)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18895)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18745)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [391204], Gordon Gano [167457], Gordon Gano's familiar [170102], Brian Ritchie [168927], Guy Hoffman [167379]
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (17732)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18081)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (17953)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18440)
The Grid's explosive shot hit Victor DeLorenzo [382863], Gordon Gano [168793], Gordon Gano's familiar [171270], Brian Ritchie [166966], Guy Hoffman [166737]
Gordon Gano's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18315)
Gordon Gano's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18704)
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (18546)
Guy Hoffman's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (17888)
The Grid cries "Shop Smart, Shop S-Mart!"

The Grid regenerated 142,500 HP

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 2:18 PM EDT

dbs not working and showing more typical levels of Ranger's MsK damage...

My familiar normally has 5 mil HP as I'm setup normally, it dies just about as fast...

It is true that I had Ranger try his smallish SoD and he still won (that has more to do with his recent addition of a heavy wall), but my familiar (and the rest of my team) easily makes it through the ranged rounds. He can post the numbers from those fights if he likes.

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:22 PM EDT

Sut,

This name calling in the forums is very typical of a child that does not get his way. He resorts to the last thing he knows, name calling.

Instead of a rational discussion and looking at the data provided, you start on the slurs. I did expect far more of someone who states they are educated and civilized.

I wish I could untrain archery and hit something. But with my MsB and Ethereal Chains, I cannot hit many characters with my bow.

I will have to chat with Hzarb and find out his secret for doing so well with a smallish MsB and no archery. I am sure all the other people who train archery will be interested in finding out how to save a butt load of xp.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 2:24 PM EDT

Nice fights. Nice to see proof of the earlier assertion that the SoD does equal damage to each minion at once.

*sarcasm*

Tezmac March 12 2008 2:25 PM EDT

I've already told you why you can't hit anything in ranged vs evasion. Your DX nets you 875k DX. Thats WITH EBs and an EC. Train yourself some DX, your EC can't be your answer to everything.

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:26 PM EDT

"Nice fights. Nice to see proof of the earlier assertion that the SoD does equal damage to each minion at once. "

I never stated or typed it did equal damage to each minion.

This gets better and better. Name calling, words in my mouth.

I said the total damage was equal to or not greater for the SoD.

The SoD have places it is far better then the MsK and others where it is worse.

However it is not the underpowered, far worse weapon then the MsK or the Elb.

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 2:29 PM EDT

You didn't say it exactly, Glory certainly did: but you didn't disagree with him: "QBRanger, Mar 10 [collapse] Colonel, How dare you compare yourself to Glory. First, you have 750k str to his 1.6M, of course you will do less damage. Second, and most importantly, you use HGs, NOT BGs. Even though they were fixed, they still give 3% per level. So assuming Glory's is +12, that is 36% more damage. Given the 2 things, if your strength was Glory's and you used his BG's, you would do nearly the amount Glory is stating he sees-about 200k a minion vs his 200k for ONE minion. On a 4 minion team, that is very much more. And you do not need a skill to boot!!" I don't need to put words in peoples mouths.

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:29 PM EDT

Tez,

How much dex?

Mikel's post showed that 2M more dex gives him perhaps 1 extra round of hitting Draco's evasion minion.

My EC is equal to 5M dexterity. I put a MgS on my 2.3M effective EC and my hits went way down.

Even if I had 2M dex, vs evasions that are over 8M effective in missile, I will never hit. Especially with the direct multipliers evasion's effect gets in missile rounds.

But it is nice to see you with suggestions. I am quite sorry our last attempt degenerated into nothing more then a slurfest.

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:31 PM EDT

O JW,

That is what one gets when one assumes.

I know full well the SOD's damage to the other minions is 40%. I thought that was obvious but will restate it here.

But compare my MsK hits vs my SoD hits with a SoD 1/3 the x of the MsK please.

Comment on that. Yes, his familiar dies quicker with the MsK but I do a lot more damage overall with the SoD.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 2:35 PM EDT

Rang,

First off, I have never said I was civilized or educated. Listing credentials and using them as some sort of "worth" upon one's person is your specialty, not mine. Besides, I'm just an ignorant Midwesterner -- whatever gave you the idea that civility is a word I can even spell? (oops, look like I got lucky!)

You are right, name-calling is childish. It's almost as bad as asking an open, subjective question, waiting for an answer, and then telling the other person their subjective answer is not correct via subtle deception (the "hard data" line). You don't have any hard data. Your examples aren't any better or worse than anyone else's. In fact, we're getting some readings from other people that help portray your "hard data" for exactly what it is: anecdotal and specific. And therefore useless in any sort of right/wrong reasoning.

At least my name-calling is out in the open and direct. Because I have absolutely no problem with everyone knowing how I feel about you on these boards. But I can start using your more sophisticated tools of deceit and slander if you'd rather I do that. I might have to CM you for some lessons on that, though.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 2:35 PM EDT

I have nothing useful to add in this discussion, but I just wanted to point out something:  I am quite sorry our last attempt degenerated into nothing more then a slurfest.
CB is the only game you will see; where people make up that fast, and don't harbor a grudge.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 2:36 PM EDT

There are enough instances where the SoD does much less damage overall than the ELB to allow me to easily say that there is no comparison, add to that the lower to hit penalty in early ranged, and I think you have to concede that the ELB is a better weapon than the SoD. You seem blind to the power of the MsK, and since that is essentially the only item you're comparing to the SoD I've tried to be clear about how powerful I see the MsK is. A maxed MsK can defeat any mage team, even a medium one can kill any familiar in just a few hits.

QBOddBird March 12 2008 2:37 PM EDT

This whole debate is really silly to start with, but I do want 1 clarification:


In a fair comparison of Archery vs. SoD damage, why would you compare MsK to SoD instead of the ELB? MsK has the lower base of the two bows due to its ability to seek DD.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 2:39 PM EDT

Here's a question for you, Ranger: Do you think Evasion is overpowered?

(Don't worry, there are no right answers, and I am sure I can find "hard data" against whatever you respond with! But please, answer anyway!)

Tezmac March 12 2008 2:43 PM EDT

Oh, there was no making up on my end. He's still a piece of work. There's no point into getting into debate with him because he gets to submit whatever "hard facts" he wants and declare victory.

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:44 PM EDT

Certainly the MsK is better in almost all cases vs the SoD vs mages.

But mages are not the only characters in CB. Vs tanks, my MsK does some damage, yes, but the SoD does a lot more to many more minions.

Each of the 3 weapons I compare each has its benefits, and drawbacks.

The fact that one is not the "preferred" missile weapon says a lot.

Remember the VB. Remember when it was the only melee weapon to use?

I feel that we do not have a clear cut best missile weapon, which is great. However the fact we have to use a high xp cost skill for 2 of them is a bit unbalanced. Again in my solo opinion not to offend anyone else who thinks otherwise.

QBRanger March 12 2008 2:45 PM EDT

"Ranger: Do you think Evasion is overpowered? "

Certainly. Please prove me wrong.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 12 2008 2:45 PM EDT

Funny. My entire post got crashed. ;)

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 2:47 PM EDT

"QBRanger, 2:31 PM EDT [collapse]
O JW,

That is what one gets when one assumes.

I know full well the SOD's damage to the other minions is 40%. I thought that was obvious but will restate it here.

But compare my MsK hits vs my SoD hits with a SoD 1/3 the x of the MsK please.

Comment on that. Yes, his familiar dies quicker with the MsK but I do a lot more damage overall with the SoD. "

Not assuming anything; just liking the fact that you're prepared to knowingly use inaccuracies in your arguments. Says a lot.

And on doing more damage...I've never argued that the SoD isn't powerful. In fact somewhere here, a little way back, I did ask the question about what is more effective: killing a familiar quickly or letting it live longer so it can do more damage to you...especially in the case of an IF. The quicker you kill it the better for you. No? Mageseeker wins out by a mile there.

QBOddBird March 12 2008 2:48 PM EDT

Awww...nobody answered my question. -cry-

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 2:51 PM EDT

I'd like to see what an equal sized ELB and SoD do in terms of damage Mr Booty; from my own experience I've seen twice the power from an ELB half the size of my 50 million NW SoD.

Tezmac March 12 2008 2:53 PM EDT

"www...nobody answered my question. -cry-"

The answer to your question is because doing so would skew the results even further toward bows being stronger than the SoD, which would go against the power-that-be's opinion.

Bows do more damage and have cheaper PTH and damage costs. MgK allows you to immediately take out the highest DD on the team and save yourself extra rounds of damage from it.

I'd like to see a comparison of the same size SoD and ELB so true "hard data" can be seen.

Ulord[NK] March 12 2008 2:56 PM EDT

I find the fascination with specialty ranged weapon puzzling. There should be no need to pay a premium for sod or msk over Elbow. With the new ranged damage tune down, Elbow is the only weapon with enough power to deal the knockout blow in one hit. Just look at what GBeee can do with Freed's elbow. I would take a knockout blow against a minion over higher spread damage that doesn't kill any day.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 3:01 PM EDT

I agree with your point, OB, but the reason Mageseeker was also brought in is because the SoD has very special abilities with the explosive shot. So, folks brought in Mageseeker's "special powers" to compare.

But you are right -- for the pure damage question, I agree that an ELB should be used to compare slingers and archers. Then, the special abilities of the MgSk and the SoD/ExShot should be compared separately.

This is a tough comparison involving base damage, special abilities (which vary depending on target), and skill slots. That's what makes it difficult, and that's why Ranger's "hard data" is such a joke -- not the data itself, the fact that he proceeds to use it to declare subjective arguments (correct by definition of being subjective) as incorrect.

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 3:03 PM EDT

Ranger, you are wrong. The hard data: Mikel beats me with a bow even though I have Evasion trained and big Elven Boots. So, Evasion is not overpowered.

Your opinion on the matter is incorrect.

Would you like to change your opinion now to be right and to agree with me? Go ahead and give it a try and we'll see what happens.

QBOddBird March 12 2008 3:04 PM EDT

/shrug.

I disagree. MsK seeking ability doesn't make it a more fair comparison.


The ELB does all its damage on one minion, the SoD does all its damage on multiple minions. It has a larger range of damage, being that it reaches its highest potential on 5 minions and its lowest on 1, but nonetheless it is just a different placement of damage.

IMO, the only fair comparison would be ELB v. SOD.


That's all I have to say in this whole argument (yes, not debate, argument)

QBRanger March 12 2008 3:20 PM EDT

Of course your right Sut,

Your correct 100% of the time, I am wrong 100% of the time.

Your great, I am not.

Your the best, I am not.

I have had it with the name calling in the forums. You win, your the bestest ever!!!

That what you want? Instead of looking at the data presented and the discussions, you seem to only want to attack. Job well done!!!

BTW: Mikel is a extreme case. Does Lega with his bow, as an "archer" hit your evasion minion? Myself, with my huge EC and 220 bow hit your evasion minion 2 times a round for about 780k a hit. That make missile all too powerful?

QBsutekh137 March 12 2008 3:25 PM EDT

*laugh*...

And I'M the one who got called childish. Oh dear.

Farewell, Ranger. I'm sure we'll meet up again on another thread somewhere...

QBJohnnywas March 12 2008 3:38 PM EDT

I just did a suicide run against Freed and Mikel. Freed's SoD and Mikel's ELB do roughly the same amount of damage against me, with the ELB coming out on top slightly. But.....

Freed has nearly six million st to Mikel's five and I presume boosted ammo. He also has +16 Beleg's to Mikel's +14.

Freed's SoD is also higher on the X.


I think that means ELB for the win in the damage stakes......


And now I'm off to eat dinner with my wife.


QBRanger March 12 2008 3:51 PM EDT

True,

But does it matter if an elb does 10M to a minion with 20 hp?

But does it matter if a SoD does 1M to all 5 minions?

I would want the SoD in that case.

Distribution of damage is fairly important as well.

That is the beauty of the current top trio of missile weapons.

The pros and cons already discussed.

No one weapon is "best", however for 2 of them a large amount of xp has to be trained just to use them properly. Not to get a benefit, just to use them up to their normal potential.

QBOddBird March 12 2008 4:02 PM EDT

I would point out that SoD Exp. shot damage suffers damage reduction from RoBF, whereas ELB arrows do not.

Additionally, though the SOD damage is more efficient in terms of how it hits, it needs 5 minions to reach its fullest potential. Against single, double, triple minion teams, ELB will even more easily out-damage it.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002NON">ExShot/SoD Suggestion</a>