hmmm (in General)

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 8:38 PM EDT

okay verefix reckons I need to explain my idea better for people to understand it so here goes

The idea is we remove Pth and use Soh (Strength of hit) instead

DX determines the number of times a weapon connects with the opponent maxing at 2, except for those training bloodlust and archery raising it to 4 times if both are at the max level of 1.0 and 0.6 respectively. This should help satisfy those complaining of sods and the fact they have to train archery to use there bows.

Now people complain of the strength of weapons and corresponding blows. I see it that a blow is a combination of st, and weapon strength. I reckon a fair way of determining damage should work along these lines.

lets work with a weapon x2000 +200 and a st of 1,000,000 to keep the math easy. This idea works on translating minion strength and weapon strength into the blow using the following method

we start with st as the base power of the hit


to determine how much of this gets used in a hit we use the + of the weapon to determine the % of the strength used with +200 being 100% e.g.
to get a hit of 1mil one needs 1mil st and a weapon with +200

1,000,000 x (0.5x200) with 200 being the weapons+

lastly we add weapon strength on top of blow
if this is an elb with base damage at 6 we times 6 by the number of X the weapon has and add that to the st damage e.g. for the fore mentioned bow it would be


Now how do we factor other spells and items into this. Firstly ToA. My idea means only DX, archery and bloodlust determine number of hits minion achieves. The Toa boost dx to help in achieving base max hits of 2. The ST boost helps increase the st used in determining the Soh (strength of hit) and give some increase to the weapon + boosting % of the st used in the blow.

Evasion. The level of evasion reduces the + of a weapon reducing the % of st used in blow so instead of a death blow its only a nick. An evasion effect of 100 would reduce a weapon of +200 to that of only a +100 effectively halving the blow.


EC will reduce the st used in calculating the blow and reduce dx, reducing number of base hits per round to hopefully none meaning only those with archery and bloodlust will get a shot in.

And Bgs would increase the final blow by 1% per + e.g. for bgs+10 result would be

1,012,000x1.1 = final blow per hit is 1,113,200


damage per shot = [St x (0.5 x weapon +)] + (base damage x weapon X)

I hope this clarifies the idea if not please state any confusions and Iメll try to rectify it. All feed back welcome.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 22 2008 8:49 PM EDT

Damage for my BoNE comes to 31,610,806.

I never got close to that with my MH which was even higher. (Never fought with this BoNE).

equation was: 31,340,418 + 270,388

**BoNE [92x2939] (+102)**

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 22 2008 8:50 PM EDT

614k STR*

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 8:56 PM EDT

BoNE [92x2939] (+102) your bone actually comes out at

your st

[614,518x(0.005x100)]+(92x2939) = 577,647

did note 1 problem with formula when doing this 0.5 should be 0.005

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 9:03 PM EDT

sorry missed +2 should be 583,792

math always hardest after night out on the drink :P

iBananco [Blue Army] March 22 2008 9:27 PM EDT

So why even bother increasing x at all?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 22 2008 9:31 PM EDT

JS, check AA's latest post, he changed the equation from .5 to .005. Which makes the x VERY important.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 22 2008 9:48 PM EDT

For melee weapons perhaps. I don't see shelling out $7,798 for a 6 point increase in damage to be all that worthwhile.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 22 2008 9:49 PM EDT

i've raised my BoNE's x's almost 400 points in 1.5 days (i think) forging.

Relic March 22 2008 10:17 PM EDT

I think this is a great idea, hopefully Jonathan will run some numbers and see if he thinks this will be fair and fun at the same time.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 22 2008 10:27 PM EDT

so koy's base damage with boomstick would be 5,722,864?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 22 2008 10:32 PM EDT

& freed's character with the named mh would be 6,329,696.70?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 22 2008 10:33 PM EDT

No, i calculated it to come out as: 32,628,970 and that's with the .005

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 22 2008 10:34 PM EDT

Doh, i made a mistake on Ranger's, you were right: 5,722,864

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 10:41 PM EDT

yes dudemus. And the weapons X is most important as that damage cannot be reduced even if all your st was negated and your weapon + reduced to 0 u would still do damage based on your weapons size, and also even if you dx was reduced to zero as long as your BL and Archery were at max u would still at least get 2 shots of damage based on just weapon strength. Which gives tanks something for their invested nw but doesn't leave mages totally unhappy as even with the biggest morg, koy's, max damage done would be little over 1 mil and that's without taking in consideration defensive spells, ac and tats

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 22 2008 10:51 PM EDT

well, i am not sure how it would all play out, but i would say that if tanks are guaranteed two hits per round at a base damage (one of the main distinctions between mages and tanks), then the mage counterpart to the mage shield would be necessary as well as a way for mages to get multiple hits? or upgrade spell damage with usd?

at that point why have distinct classes in the game at all?

evasion would also become a must for mages but less effective than it is now. usd would seem to be just as effective on weapons as it is now and evasion would hurt those not spending usd more than those who do. unless i am just missing something here this solution wouldn't really help the issues at hand.

(CB1)logan666 [Jago] March 22 2008 11:00 PM EDT

I think your original formula would work but just have to take into account that melee weapons have a higher base and they would have to be adjusted to fit the equation. Say perhaps make melee weapons have their base damage divided by say 15 and the numbers start to look good. For example: Morg base damage of 84/15=5.6. Not bad at all and the BONE looks even better at 6.13 making it more powerful than an ELB. Ha, take that all those who use nothing but a bow.

There is some things you haven't mentioned yet that would have to addressed however. Where does ammo x's and +'s fit into this equation? The + would be easy to just add to weapon + but how would you adjust for ammo x? Also since ranged weapons use different ammo with different base damage how does that factor into the equation? Makes it a little more difficult taking all these factors into play but I can see some possible solutions to your equation that would make it work.

Relic March 22 2008 11:07 PM EDT

Remove ammo upgrading altogether and you solve that issue.

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:10 PM EDT

in regards to mages mm especially requires possible multi hits at least 2 anyway. CoC and Fireball on the other hand get multi hits by hitting multiple minions in a team scenario, there damage effect could do with an increase though, whereas tanks may do 1- 4 hits but against the same minion in 1 round. Also SoD tanks wouldn't be as advantageous as they have no archery or bl associated with there weapon. This change means that although evasion is necessary for most mages so is archery and bl for tanks it levels it out a bit more and both can choose not to use either.

As to the effects of usd the amount of money required to generate a blow near 1mil with nothing but the weapons x strength is extremely high look at the top morgs and can be easily compensated with exp and items which can also take usd. The fact is this method reduces max damage generated by current weapons but provides a counter balance to such loss that is not insurmountable by mages.

Also lets not forget the Disadvantage to Mage shields as discussed before in regards to their cancellation of spells and such many tanks cannot actually use MgSs since many train DM and Protection only PL walls or evasion walls are best suited to use MgSs and mages can create those walls in there team just like tanks

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:16 PM EDT

in regards to the base damage of weapons the bows damage will be less so mages will be able to survive longer through ranged so be happy those previous values were based on melee weapons with high base damage so ranged would become more reasonable.

As to reducing base weapon damage i think that should be left as it is melee weapons should be more powerful and since u can't have both BL and Archery many may not hit in ranged at all or hit in Melee either due to ecs out their and other constraints

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:21 PM EDT

lastly since this would mean SoDs become less effective i would move to have explosive shot be incorporated in the actual sling of death like the Msk and its seeker ability and ammo should be altered to be nothing more than an item needed to use a ranged weapon, remove he + and x to the ammo. If u don't agree with that remove just the x and base damage and just make u can increase the + which gets added to the weapons + in the formula

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:37 PM EDT

oh yeah for anyone interested highest ranged damge that could be achieved right now in the game is with the highest elb Platypus Phleghm [6x10500] (+252) owned by AdminG Beee and the highest st belonging to freed i believe the damage would be


Remembering this is the largest weapon in the game and is a rarity.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 22 2008 11:40 PM EDT

the highest fireball in the game, before equipment, can likely do 4 million a round to unprotected minions. if tanks can hit 4 times per round, then the highest mh's in the game, under your plan, could do 20 to 24 million per round to unprotected minions.

i would say that it would take more than a small damage boost to dd to keep up. randomness for dd would likely need to be removed also as well as the things i mentioned earlier.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 22 2008 11:46 PM EDT

also, dd's guaranteed hits are mitigated in part by the randomness factor of dd. giving weapons the advantage of guaranteed hits without the disadvantages seems pretty overpowered to me.

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:48 PM EDT

it would be great to set u a sub test game with this idea put together some minions with tats, dd spells, weapons and armour and actually c how it works out.

dud i dare say many mages have close to evasion effect of 100 which would greatly reduce the damage of the weapon previously mentioned. + protection tats, and ac all help to reduce the damage

Relic March 22 2008 11:51 PM EDT

Keep in mind dudemus that the largest weapons in the game are an anomaly and in order to make a 200 mil NW MH, it would cost you at the current CB2 vs. USD rate, 1000 USD. Most of the really high items have been blacksmithed over a long period of time and have cost probably 3 times that much due to CB2 vs. USD ratios fluctuating. I remember early on 1 mil CB2 was 40 USD.

My current MsK is almost 60 mil NW, that would cost 300 USD. Most players are not and cannot afford to put that kind of USD into a single item.

Overall I think Ancient's idea is great. One thing to note is he is including ALL tank boosting items in his formulas. Because if you looked at just base ST without items, you couldn't do anywhere near 7 mil damage per hit.

Your example for DD max is based on the DD only, not with items. I have heard talk of 9 mil damage per hit with fully boosted DD spells near the top ranks.

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:51 PM EDT

i thought spell randomness was due to amf if your spell was 100% it always fired. I guess u can make archery, bl hits random to like for archery of 1 uget 75% chance of a shot and 25% chance of a second shot

Relic March 22 2008 11:53 PM EDT

He is referring to DD hitting for 50% one round and 100% the next.

Ancient Anubis March 22 2008 11:53 PM EDT

thanx glory didn't pick that up comparing base dd spell to weapon damage with items

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 22 2008 11:57 PM EDT

"One thing to note is he is including ALL tank boosting items in his formulas"

the numbers i gave for the "anomaly" weapons are with base strength, not boosted. so the damage would be even higher with strength boosting items.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 23 2008 12:02 AM EDT

once again, if a solution doesn't account for the anomalies, then it is no better than our current system and probably quite worse. jon's comments lead me to believe that he's looking for a better solution to balancing for the anomalies while not requiring an anomaly to play, not just ignoring the anomalies as they are few and far between.

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:04 AM EDT

i'm sorry dud but the value we worked out for the biggest mh + freed's 100%+ item boosted st and same for the biggest elb + freed's 100%+ are the only values that would come close to delivering a top near 24mil with 4 shots in a round before defenses items and spells were considered. So i did in theory include st boosting items as used by freed and he has some of the biggest in the game

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:08 AM EDT

the fact is USD can't and i repeat can't be removed from the game otherwise it would have been done already. The only other problem is weapon sizes and unless we start capping size like max weapon sizes for each weapon eg mh x10000 +200 or elb x6000 +225 (these are just examples) we will just have to accept the odd large weapon.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 23 2008 12:09 AM EDT

hmm, i am not sure i understand you then. i get 6,329,696 for freed with his mh and his base strength, that shown on his character sheet when i inspect him. if ya multiply that times four then you get over 25 million damage per round against an unprotected minion before any strength boosting gear. where am i messing up the calculation then?

Relic March 23 2008 12:12 AM EDT

The ST you are seeing on freed is being boosted by a ToA, AoM, and some Elven gear...

So clarification, is it based on trained DX, or adjusted DX with items. What about GS?

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:13 AM EDT

i reckon my way best balances those that use usd to those who don't and i can't see that many people being unfairly disadvantaged. If u want to remove usd make it u can't transfer items only rent them out, u can't transfer cash what u make only u can spend and make all items sporn in stores including supporter items. Only by removing trading between users can usd be removed leaving u only able to buy namings and supportership

QBRanger March 23 2008 12:13 AM EDT

Instead of reinventing the wheel, a weapon cap would solve things.

Right now, any system will not take into account USD backed weapons. Any system that does will fail to take into account non USD weapons, which are far more then the former types.

Either way, someone gets the shaft. Like the way evasion is now. If you do not have a high NW weapon, good luck hitting evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 23 2008 12:16 AM EDT

"The ST you are seeing on freed is being boosted by a ToA, AoM, and some Elven gear... "

you are absolutely correct and i was thinking wrong. i forget that the intrinsics are shown at their boosted bad.

i do agree with ranger on this one, a weapon cap of some sort is much more simple than a revamp at this point.

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:18 AM EDT

for dud with freeds base st he's damage would be 3,720,333 per hit

Lumpy Koala March 23 2008 12:18 AM EDT

Sorry, I have to ask... what about UC ?

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:21 AM EDT

if u put a weapon cap in you'll have to evasion as well though then people will argue what's fair cap

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:26 AM EDT

uc has an effect that takes the place of the weapons + and and the evasion it generates would be applied like normal evasion against opponents minions. In regards to the x what ever the hidden formula is that determines that would just be added into my formula

Relic March 23 2008 12:29 AM EDT

weapon caps will turn the game into mage blender, because if you cannot increase your damage by increasing your weapon strength you are left to add 1 point of extra damage here and there through exp only, that is basically DD with an even greater downside because you have to have a weapon as a tank, mage will be the only choice at that point

QBRanger March 23 2008 12:31 AM EDT

Great point Glory,

However with evasion the way it is now, we are approaching mage blender. Or at least if you do not hae a high NW weapon, your hosed.

This whole evasion thing is due to a few skewed weapons.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 23 2008 12:32 AM EDT

weapon caps don't have to do that. one of my proposed caps in the thread was based on mpr, so you would have strength and weapon upgrades, just limited weapon upgrades.

i think it can be done with just limiting the anomalies rather than everyone else.

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:34 AM EDT

that was what i was hoping to combat with my idea to stop evasion and weapons having such a great influence

QBRanger March 23 2008 12:34 AM EDT

I agree with Dude.

As with MTL, I suspect most of the weapon will be far less then the Weapon Cap. A few may be over it, but I personally would not mind as long as the evasion/damage axis is fixed for everyone. And I have 1 possibly 2 weapons that would be effected.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 23 2008 12:36 AM EDT

and i should add, then toning evasion down and looking very closely at dd to make sure it is still in line as well.

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:38 AM EDT

can i just say i think the greatest problem is people below say 3mil looking up at those above and going god there far up and not appreciating that they didn't do it over night but over many battles and many strats. People who are in Lórien and lower need to stop comparing there newish characters to those in gondor.

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:40 AM EDT

as with the weapons which are we trying to limit the x or + or both?

QBRanger March 23 2008 12:43 AM EDT

It would have to be both.

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:47 AM EDT

the x doesn't have to be capped just cap the effect make it that it can only achieve 2 extra hits or something on top of any hits via dx and the plus u could just cap all weapons at a nice even 10,000 maybe

Ancient Anubis March 23 2008 12:47 AM EDT

the + not the x for the first bit sorry

lostling March 23 2008 1:04 AM EDT

i would like to think evasion is only overpowered in the early rounds... So my suggestion... Make evasion multiplier a flat 1.2 across all the ranged rounds... That would solve most problems
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