Re-thinking the challenge bonus ? (in General)

Sickone March 29 2008 10:58 AM EDT

No idea about you, but the challenge bonus is a bit wacky, since it's 100% dependant on score, and score kind of fluctuates wildly depending on activity and target selection.
Heck, look at my current NCB, for instance.

Ok, I understand the need to not make the challenge bonus strictly PR-dependant, but making it only score-dependant... and with scores so easily shifting by massive amounts (and highly dependant on activity level of all people involved), it does sound a bit fishy.

For instance, I could keep on hitting "lostling" for massive scores and 100% Challenge Bonus for a very long time, and since only higher score characters would be hitting me, I wouldn't lose much score, and I wouldn't take lostling down much in the process.
At the same time, I would be a very easy source of high challenge bonus for characters with a PR double or triple than mine.

Say waht you want, but the way challenge bonus is computed is a bit... screwy ?

QBRanger March 29 2008 11:09 AM EDT

Seems fine to me.

While PR is a nice idea of your overall power, score is more representative of your toughness.

Higher score=tougher to beat
Lower score=easier to beat.

One could have a PR of 3M and a score of 1.5M if their strategy really sucks.
Conversely, one could have a PR of 1.5M and a score of 2M if one has a great strategy or an abusive on like the evasion/RBF.

Challenge bonus should be based on toughness of the character you defeat. Remember PR can be easily manipulated.

TheHatchetman March 29 2008 11:09 AM EDT

If it goes by MPR or by PR then it is too easily manipulated and badly skewed, there will be chars with high MPR/PRs but a truly horrible strategic sense, and they would provide good challenge bonus for everyone ever coming up... Never backing down in their abilities. As opposed to the score-based system we have now. Granted the number fluctuates by great numbers all the time, but it has the same basic concept. The better you are doing, the more it goes up, the worse you are doing the more it goes down...

Dig up Bruce Lee, and I'll beat the crap out of him right here... When someone's doing great, let them be the guy being challenged. When they aren't, let them get farmed into oblivion and have their score buried so deep, nobody will ever bother them again ;)

Sickone March 29 2008 11:57 AM EDT

You could use something like the weighted mean between PR and score... either arithmetic mean or geometric mean, and with whatever weight you deem worthy.
Right now, the "weight" of score is 100% and that of PR zero.

For instance, you could use (Score*2+PR)/3, in this case it's an arithmetic mean with 66% score weight and 33% PR weight.
Or, you could use SQRT(Score*RP), which is a 50%-50% weight geometric mean.

In all of the above cases, when score is roughly equal to PR, the final "challenge rank" is roughly equal too... but when they differ a lot from eachother, the "challenge rank" begins to drift from the current implementation.

Sickone March 29 2008 12:07 PM EDT

The reason behind why these changes would be somehow needed ?
Like I said, just take a look at my NCB score/MPR.
I have absolutely no problems finding opponents I can beat more than 5 times my current MPR in score.
But later on, everybody that plays heavily will unavoidably hit the "dead zone" where most people with only slightly better score will have much more MPR as I have, basically forcing me to keep on fighting the same opponents with ever-decreasing challenge bonuses.

Ok, maybe not re-think the challenge bonus, leave it as it is.
But then, maybe re-think the way score is calculated ?

Ulord[NK] March 29 2008 2:22 PM EDT

If you play a ncb properly, you can largely avoid deadzone and get through it quickly through your bonus. Having a good strategy also helps. Hiring a minion of two will save you a lot more agony. Before the ncb change, deadzone was a lot harder to get through.

Again, we need to reward good strategy and punish bad ones. And the current score does exactly that. A game where whoever plays the most number of BA advances the most would be as boring as one of those arm wrestling clicking game.

Lord Bob March 29 2008 2:47 PM EDT

I think the challenge bonus is fine.

Sickone March 29 2008 3:43 PM EDT

Really ? It's fine that people from 300k to 1.5 mil PR are all in the 1.5 mil - 2 mil score range ? With equally "challenging" challenge bonuses ? Seriously ?

Cube March 29 2008 4:51 PM EDT

I think it's a little messed up too. I mean why should I be rewarded for killing teams that only get their score from specialization? Oh well I don't have any other proposition. It just seems odd.

Ulord[NK] March 29 2008 4:53 PM EDT

Again, the ncb carries you to 2mil+ in matter of 4 months... What's the problem? Have people gotten so impatient that 4 months is becoming too long of a time for a character's life? Do note that a character used to take a year or two to build up to that point before. With proper hiring and diligent fighting, getting through the dead zone is a breeze WITHOUT using usd. Must everything be spoon fed?

Cube March 29 2008 5:07 PM EDT

Ulord, he's not complaining

Sickone March 29 2008 5:27 PM EDT

Depends on how you put it... 4 months of concentrated "oomph" is a little bit too concentrated, if you ask me, but I wasn't talking about that at all right now.
I was merely expressing a concern about the EXISTANCE of a "dead zone" caused by the way score and/or challenge bonus is calculated.
I was wondering what's the point in getting huge rewards for beating some super-specialised strat (like, for instance, me beating lostling's RoBF char, thus getting a huge score for my MPR, therefore other people getting a big challenge bonus for beating me in turn).
I was complaining about how it feels very odd that the challenge bonus is based on score only, rather than a combination between PR and score.
I was pondering on how weird the score is calculated, in case everybody feels the challenge bonus should be based on score purely.

And so on and so forth.

Lord Bob March 29 2008 6:08 PM EDT

"Really ? "

Yes really.

"It's fine that people from 300k to 1.5 mil PR are all in the 1.5 mil - 2 mil score range ?"

That's a problem with the game's balance right now *coughrbfevasioncough* and not with the challenge bonus.

tasuki [UFC] March 29 2008 6:20 PM EDT

"That's a problem with the game's balance right now *coughrbfevasioncough* and not with the challenge bonus."

It is not with just the evasion monkeys but also character with bow equip and no arrow, drop hp to 20, no weapons, etc.

The score seems fine for the top tier characters but gets really skewed at certain levels.

Sickone March 29 2008 7:01 PM EDT

The fact score is never used in tournaments because it's not perceived as "fair enough" should be the best indicator there's something wrong with it in the first place.
Then having challenge bonuses depend only on that (when it's generally acknowledged it's not the best system of ranking at all), that can't be good.

Sickone March 30 2008 9:42 PM EDT

And in the newest addition to "the challenge bonus and/or score system is broken" hall of fame... Little Anthony and his Sunday "beat me to a pulp" MgS special.

Tyriel [123456789] March 30 2008 10:02 PM EDT

"I was complaining about how it feels very odd that the challenge bonus is based on score only, rather than a combination between PR and score."

Somebody (Synge? That name pops out, but I'm not entirely sure) showed a while back that the rewards are based on the opponent's PR, then modified by their score. Challenge bonus is only one part of the picture (albeit a somewhat significant one) in determining what your rewards are.

[LittleRed]Calynne March 30 2008 10:02 PM EDT

Is there anything you HAVEN'T complained about yet?


Sickone March 31 2008 1:13 AM EDT

"Is there anything you HAVEN'T complained about yet? "

I'd be hard pressed to find anything else :)

Sickone March 31 2008 1:15 AM EDT

P.S. Well, I haven't complained about anything regarding the skill, items or the combat mechanics itself, those seem pretty much fine as they are ;)
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