Tattoo is overated? (in General)

Little Anthony March 31 2008 9:37 PM EDT

It became a concern to me whether tattoo is a must have items or not. Sure, using ROE like I do is a choice. But up to this point, i am clearly lost to 5 people in the whole game and few of those are extreme USD users. If I look closer, in the long run, the only person i can possibly win is Hubbell. With or without tattoo the other 4 are still too impossible to win against. Is this game over for me?
Is Roe the way to go to 'the end'?
Tattoo up to this point in my 4 months of NuB is totally over-rated.

QBsutekh137 March 31 2008 9:41 PM EDT

Name the other folks.

I bet they have big tats or a lot of NW. Your NW is _tiny_. If it is smaller than me, it's TINY. *smile*

Give us more detail. Then we can help better.

And yes, you will get me, you will at least get off my fight list. *smile*

Also, save for a fourth minion, or seriously build the third into a real wall, and you'll be at a different level.

Ulord[NK] March 31 2008 9:46 PM EDT

Tattoo is a must... when used correctly. Getting a large ToE and a proper wall up and you'll see the massive difference, especially since ToE is so retardedly overbuffed right now.

All of that is null of course, you are not going to get a big tattoo, a 3mil+ one, not for a long time. Your best hope is if a big nub sells out. Good luck.

Little Anthony March 31 2008 9:48 PM EDT

I think i worded the problem wrong. I would like to ask for advice who I should target next within this list:

-Little Devil

and who is impossible to target given my strategy. I would only change strategy if i can win all of those above with it. And If I get a tattoo, would I be able to beat any of these characters?

QBsutekh137 March 31 2008 10:03 PM EDT

Wow, quite a list.

I'll write more later, maybe. *smile*

Ulord[NK] March 31 2008 10:12 PM EDT

Better question: who is going to sell you a tattoo that will pair you up to the big boys? Pretty much nobody. You better keep your eye out for one in case anyone sells out, coz you are downright out of luck otherwise. Big tattoos money can't buy... So until you actually get a tattoo, well you are stuck working with what you got.

lostling March 31 2008 10:48 PM EDT

i think everyone is kinda wrong about tattoos... because from what i've seen... if you keep going on and on with an ROE eventually you will even take ranger's large tattoo down... unless of course tattoos lvl faster then the extra exp... then im not very sure...

Lumpy Koala March 31 2008 10:54 PM EDT

Tattoo is still a good aide to your strategy no matter how you look at it. It's just that at high up, MPR plays a big role too, because you can just take a look at top 20. The ones from 6 - 20 is like 500k-1mil MPR away from the top 5. Unless your strategy is ultimately sucky like mine, you would win almost everyone else with just pure MPR if you are in the top 5.

The same comment if it's made by someone with the same strategy as yours at 1mil MPR, would probably be slapping themselves :P

three4thsforsaken March 31 2008 10:57 PM EDT

Well the way I see it, tattoos always give such a huge effect, that more often than not are extremely cost efficient. Take ToE for example, each round the reduction is equivalent to training that much more hp.

For NCBs, tattoos let you have experience from your last character carry on to your new one.

But in the case with huge MPR and huge USD NW, the effects seem less dramatic, because you are achieving the same effect. But that isn't an option for most, so the effects of tattoos will always seem large.

Besides, it's one of the few things Vets have these days.

lostling March 31 2008 11:22 PM EDT

consider this for a while... then tell me.... whats the advantages of being a vet?

my take...
1. more experience(like duh)
2. supporter items(if you have been around to buy them)
3. tattoos(if you grow them)
4. established character(if you worked hard enuff)
5. know more people?

Little Anthony March 31 2008 11:33 PM EDT

I have to add Draco back onto this list. OmG! He retrained. So now the list is 6 people.

Freed doesn't count because there is no way i can beat his huge arrow.
G Beee? Bad bow, I am not even trying.

QBsutekh137 March 31 2008 11:34 PM EDT

I do think tats are important... It's hard to quantify, though. I think if I changed my tat with Oxcha's, I would win. My Fireball would overwhelm his weaker ToE, and I would maybe at least squeak out a draw. As it is, he destroys me. That's not really the tatss fault -- that's the nature of the ToE. One of those binary things in the game that people go blah blah blah rock/scisor/paper/how/fracking/great/is/that! type of thing. So, people seem to like it. Which is good, since the game seems to be working more and more in that direction. The main people I remove from my fight list are ToE/AMF/TSA/PL/MgS/Wall type of folks -- the Wall has become the simgle most effective minion at the high levels. Awesome. The most boring, brain-dead, fall-off-a-log minion is the most essential. Folks love it! Like chicken McNuggets! Or, dare I say, McRib!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 31 2008 11:43 PM EDT

Hey Now Sut... I used to work for McDonalds and I loved the McRib... I used to have one at lunch everyday when we had them ^_^

QBsutekh137 March 31 2008 11:46 PM EDT

Mmmmmm, McRib...... The only thing better than pork in barbecue sauce is fake pork smothered in extra-salty ketchup!


Sickone April 1 2008 12:36 AM EDT

Well, a tattoo is not necessarily a "must have", it's just another mean of boosting your MPR's worth.

ToE ? At best, it's equivalent to +300% HP on carrier and +220% HP on rest of the team (including AS effect too). But that only for damages below the "treshold".

ToA ? A huge extra chunk of DX/ST, and some equivalent extra weapon NW without the problems of WA, always the very same effect.

RoS ? Well, depending on how exactly you use it, it can be anywhere from next-to-useless to a huge boost. One of the best uses probably is with AS (on carrier), heavy GA and decent Prot on other team members, with some decent measure of DM and AMF at the same time (and maybe even a bit of EC, but I'd personally stay away from it)... that's getting most out of your RoS, IMHO. Ideally, you'll also have a damage dealer, preferably a CoC mage I guess.

In each of the above situations (and in the case of the rest of the tats too, pretty much), the tat. just acts as a MPR-booster, a lot like a corn, AGs or elven gear... their effect however is in some cases a bit more subtle... and the PR boost you get from them is not always quite properly "weighted" compared to items or other tats.

Phrede April 1 2008 2:59 AM EDT

You are doing fine without - I would be tempted to continue that way - HOWEVER . I would think something like a ToE would really enhance your fight list. The good thing about tats is that for a cost you can re-ink and try something different.

Also you dont need a massive Tat (it would be nice) just one big enough to make a difference (1 -2 mill)

QBJohnnywas April 1 2008 3:02 AM EDT

The best thing about running a RoE based team and the worst is that your strat is not reliant on a tattoo. Now unless you're hugely reliant on bonus body and cloak gears you can equip a small-medium sized tattoo and grow it without affecting your fighting. It might not make that much of a difference initially but give it a little time and you will see a difference.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 1 2008 3:07 AM EDT

Well I will say that tats aren't necessary but they are a welcome addition... with the right strategy, like mine, I can now defeat Hubbell with a RoE equipped at 500k less mpr than he. All it takes is the right strat to combat other strats. But a tat is like having a 5th minion with the pr addition it grants... it helps by boosting other skills or spells... or boosting your dex, str, or usefulness of HP.

Just keep in mind... things can only get better for you if you start using a tat ^_^

lostling April 1 2008 3:19 AM EDT

the question i would like to put forward... would your tattoo grow faster or a character with an ROE?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 1 2008 3:27 AM EDT

well look at it this way... the minion wearing the Roe gets the experience a tattoo would normally receive so I would assume if in closed conditions... with both characters started at the same time one with a Roe and the other with a base tattoo, that a character at say 3 mil mpr with an RoE is the same as a character with a tattoo leveled the entire time at 2.4 mil mpr with that tattoo... that is my hypothesis and I'm sticking to it ^_^

Sickone April 1 2008 3:52 AM EDT

I'm not quite sure of the tattoo growth rate, but if I remember correctly, if you fight with the tat always on, level of tat is slightly higher than total MPR growth. As I said, I really, really can't remember the precise data, but my NUB ended with a level 960k tattoo, and I only had around 700k MPR. However, I did insta-up the tat once (had a lesser version, got an insta-up in both level and quality for some decent cash). Actual growth however is lower than max tat. level growth, so you can insta-up a lot, if you would find some.

Let's just assume for a moment that tattoo level would be roughly equal to MPR level.
If that's not the case, the math is wrong, feel free to re-do.
Well, easiest to compare would be RoE vs either ToA, RoS or a familiar.

With a ToA, you get 1/2 of tat level into ST, 1/3 of it into DX, and a little bit of virtual NW on your weapon's PTH.
At 435k MPR (a bit over 15 mil XP on a single minion), a same-level tat (435k) would mean 217k ST, 145k DX and some "virtual NW". That ST/DX would be equivalent to a bit over 4 mil XP, so that's a roughly 25-30% increase in "virtualized" MPR as actual PR in torm of extra ST/DX levels, plus the weapon PTH.
Definetely better than a RoE, but only in case you do manage to get consistent challenge bonuses with your increased PR (which would also be more or less 25%-30% higher than your MPR, if you had only the tattoo equipped)... so, in the early phases, yes, great... however, as you get higher up in scores, it gets increasingly difficult to get those challenge bonuses, and the RoE becomes better again.

The RoS, that's pretty straightforward too. It's only 1/2 of level into one ED, which translates into a mere 17-18% extra "PR-virtualized MPR".
However, against DM-wielding opponents, the "protection" granted to DM's effect can easily push the actual (equivalent) virtual MPR much higher... just highly dependant on the level of "incoming" DM.

With a familiar, you get same level DD as the tat level and 1/4 of it as HP.
In the previous example, that would be over 6.5 mil of "virtual" MPR on top of your 15-ish mil, or an actual boost of roughly 40% (for a mere 25-30% PR boost).
Familiar tatoos are therefore, right now, the best "bang for your buck", especially if junctioned (or also using AoF).
The only problem is that the familiar has so little HP compared to potential magic damage, that a heavy AS becomes almost mandatory, opening you up to DM.

So, right now, I would say, given ideal circumstances:
Familiars > ToA > RoS > RoE
Given far less than ideal circumstances (not being able to find proper opponents to gain advantage of the challenge bonus):
RoE >>> ToA > Familiars > RoS

lostling April 1 2008 3:56 AM EDT

nice break down... skimmed it.. will read it more carefully when i get home from work...

Sickone April 1 2008 3:57 AM EDT

Of course, the above only refers to growth potential.
If you mean the actual fight results (number of characters being able to beat you vs you being able to beat them), any tattoo other than RoE is better than just the RoE.
Of course, ideally, you'd use a RoE as much as possible, then switch to an oversized tattoo, but there's not that many big tattoos out there, so you might have a problem with that.

lostling April 1 2008 4:30 AM EDT

put it this way...

Abbreviation: RoE
Transfers about 2/3 of the experience it would get as a tattoo to its owner.
This results in a 20% experience increase for the character, given to the minion that wears it.

2/3 =66.7%
if 66.7% of the exp earned by the tattoo = 20%
that would mean that a tattoo gains exp of 20/66.7x100 = 29%

considering you can name an ROE to improve MPR growth... that would mean 20x1.04 = 20.8% exp

am i right?

Adminedyit [Superheros] April 1 2008 5:12 AM EDT

I didn't make LA's list :(

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 1 2008 8:34 AM EDT

RoE gives an extra 21-22% xp not 20%

QBsutekh137 April 1 2008 9:19 AM EDT

Well, whatever is going on, FTW is off my fight list... Several losses and draws this morning, I'd say I only won once out of 10 tries (first time)... So, there goes two more folks off my list (removed The Lega yesterday...). So, keep up the good work! *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 1 2008 9:24 AM EDT

I worked in McDonalds when studying for my A levels. ;)

Little Anthony April 1 2008 11:37 AM EDT

New List :
-Little Devil

I hope that my 4th minion can take out at least 1 person out of this list.
I haven't trained this minion yet. Any recommendations?

QBsutekh137 April 1 2008 11:42 AM EDT

Wall, what else could there be?

TheHatchetman April 1 2008 11:46 AM EDT

with a wall, you could consider a switch to CoC. Then, when ya finally get your hands on a decent-sized ToE, you'll have pretty much every char in CB in the palm of your hands ^_^

QBsutekh137 April 1 2008 11:48 AM EDT

Though, I will tell you this: be prepared to not knock out any of those guys -- their damage reduction is too strong, and as soon as you get into melee, you are going to roast your whole team. So, even if you play the damage reduction game too, you will likely have trouble not being able to generate enough offense against a large RoBF or a build like Oxcha's.

But I don't see a way of making a fourth minion generate any appreciable offense. And enchantments don't help since you are down the DM path (otherwise AMF would be very helpful).

So, maybe just an AS enchanter? The targets you mention do not have a lot of DM, I don't think... More AS makes every thing on your team more buff and makes any damage reduction and PL stuff work that much better... Won't help against me, but you're already off my list...

QBsutekh137 April 1 2008 11:49 AM EDT

So, Hatch, you mean he should just become Conundrum with one extra minion? I suppose that's a pretty good idea, kinda samey though. Then again, it is hard to generate enough offense with Fireball before roasting your team, as I mention above... So, it's a good idea.

Sickone April 1 2008 12:02 PM EDT

He could always try to get a "big enough" tattoo, re-ink as RoS (3 mil level would be very nice, and the more the merrier), chuck it onto a base AS enchanter, then he can go wild with all the XP on the other minions on all EOs and/or several other EDs if he wants to (I'd avoid GA though, unless he makes the switch to MM or CoC, he'd get self-roasted by his own GA in melee if he keeps the FB)... you know, just as long as each individual level is below the RoS DM protection (1/3 of level).

Little Anthony April 1 2008 12:24 PM EDT

i have thought about ROS for a while, and i notice how much Ranger, Edyit, mikel's MH can leech HP and ROS on AS would only work against Little Devil or so. I would just feeding HP to the rest.

Updated: Beat Double trouble and freed so still not worry about it. (normal ammo I guess)

Sickone April 1 2008 11:24 PM EDT

Well, with enough DM on your side, the most they could leech is 20% of the damage they deal per round... and with a high enough GA, you could deal back up to 80% of the damage they deal in retaliation as new raw damage.
Let's say you'd only deal back around 40% of the damage on average (not high enough GA) but they'd still be leeching only 20% (cancelled any VAs with your DM), if they (their damage dealers) have an AC around 240, they barely hand on "on par" (HP gained roughly equals HP lost)... but you DID gain an extra round in which your mage can deal damage with your "meat shields" !
Like I've said, though, FB is not much of an option, you'd end up self-grilling your entire team with a FB/GA combo... so you'd have to switch to CoC (insane damage, just have to survive 5 ranged rounds in which you do absolutely nothing) or MM (least amount of overall damage, but also least susceptible to damage reductions and retaliations, due to "focused" damage on a single target).

Sickone April 2 2008 12:05 AM EDT

Or the max retaliation was 60% ? Hmm, anyway, still, the same idea applies (the example was with merely 40% damage "retaliated for").
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