DBs Versus EBs (in General)

Godpanda April 1 2008 11:16 PM EDT

Now... I knew the stack wasn't linear.... But apparently the stack is simply retarded.

I have a pair of +69 named DBs. I also have an evasion with an effect of (70). Now, I know that I'm not pulling 130 evasion. But I was thinking like +100... +90 at the least...

But I just tested a pair of +18 EBs. Gives me an effect of 76... And people are missing me more. Granted, it's in ranged so the evasion is substantially increased... But this seems ridiculous to me.

The DBs have ALOT of NW in them. But now a pair of 1 mil EBs are going to push them off my team because the stack is stupid.

Now, I know you don't want huge evasions.... And stacking NW and MPR could be a bit much. But COME ON. The DBs are basically trash. Literal. Trash. They're useful until what? 500k MPR? A WEEK or two into a NCB?

I think, if nothing else to the DBs, the stacking of evasion and DBs need to be looked at. Because right now the EBs are doing what you originally feared DBs and evasion would do and there's no safeguard against that...

Just what I see from me.

lostling April 1 2008 11:18 PM EDT

EBs work by percentage... the less exp you put into evasion the less effective they are...

RVT April 1 2008 11:19 PM EDT

I agree.

QBsutekh137 April 1 2008 11:20 PM EDT

Vampire, true, but the DBs carry you further in melee. What you are noticing is how extending ranged has made the EB vs DB question that much more confusing. EBs are pretty damn fine, I would have to agree, and the DBs don't stack worth crap with Evasion.

lostling April 1 2008 11:22 PM EDT

:) considering +35 EBs are pretty cheap lol

Daz April 1 2008 11:39 PM EDT

If you have a minion with a skill other than evasion, THEN you use DBs. DBs on an evasion minion isn't really worth it.

I'm going to be buying DBs for my junction minion (Mostly just to try and stop triple+ hits) and EBs for my evasion minion when i finally grind up enough cash for a new minion.

lostling April 1 2008 11:51 PM EDT

the point is... with DBs you can keep upgrading it... eventually it will outstrip elven boots... due to the upgrade curve... dont forget you could probably upgrade your displacement for less then 100% NW

Sickone April 2 2008 12:01 AM EDT

Well, DBs only reduce enemy PTH but grant absolutely no defensive DX... while EBs boost both DX and skills (which, in case of evasion, means defensive DX too, not just PTH reduction).
Now... I don't know for sure HOW EXACTLY this defensive DX is calculated, because from the wiki it's a bit... unclear... does only the "reminder" of the evasion effect minus PTH get converted into defensive DX, or is defensive DX the actual level of trained evasion regardless of enemy PTH (therefore getting a "double dip" effect of not only reducing PTH, but also getting the full defensive DX effect) ?

Let's pick, for instance, a +30 EB pair (8.7 mil NW), and a similarly expensive pair of DBs, say +80 (8.8 mil NW, but they can be forged, so arguably even +85 DBs would be in the same rough price range).

The +30 EB grant a flat +30% increase in DX and skills (in this case, evasion). Assuming you have no DX trained, and all of your defensive DX comes from evasion (like on any other proper mage), you do get a much larger bonus to your defensive DX during ranged (since it gets multiplied).
The +80 DBs would translate into a level 466,736 evasion instead.
Now, if you had more than 1,555,786 levels trained into evasion, the effect of the +30 EBs would be always greater if all would work equitably, and the +80 DBs would be better at lower evasion levels (but full beneficial effect only against weapons with a PTH of +80 or greater).

However, like pointed out, I have no idea how the defensive DX is calculated (before or after enemy PTH reduction), and even wether the DB don't actually contribute to defensive DX like the description says they don't.

The simplest "fix" would be (regardless of how things are done right now) :
a) DBs simply grant extra evasion levels equivalent to their effect (levels which become clearly visible in case evasion is trained, and the re-calculated evasion level too)
b) defensive DX is only the REMINDER of evasion effect minus enemy weapon PTH, re-translated into levels

This way, the only difference (for an evasion-only minion) between EBs and DBs is the amount of levels in evasion and EB/DB NW (and therefore effect, one percentual, one flat).
Of course, for tanks in general (and DX tanks in particular), EBs would be the better choice most of a tank's life, no matter how big the DBs might be (and I'd be hard-pressed to find a scenario where DBs might be better).

Godpanda April 2 2008 12:27 AM EDT

Guys, what ya'll aren't understanding or I didn't phrase right was how quickly the DBs become the weaker option. 4 mil into evasion the EBs are outstripping the DBs. That's ridiculous.

And DBs on a NON evasion minion are worthless unless you have A)USD or B) USD or C) Some other way to pump well over 50 million into an item.

three4thsforsaken April 2 2008 12:29 AM EDT

As I see it the purpose of DBs is not to dodge but to reduce hits. Put it on your non evasion mage or familiar to prevent quad hits, and let your PL battery/ToE do the rest.

Daz April 2 2008 12:34 AM EDT

What you actually said is:

"Evasion + DBs doesn't work as well as Evasion + EBs, therefore DBs are complete and utter trash."

Which completely ignores the fact that EBs don't give any evasion effect to non-evasion minions, which is why DBs are useful.

Tyriel [123456789] April 2 2008 12:41 AM EDT

I wonder if DB might be better on a wall than CML...

Somebody else could probably crunch some numbers on it, but taking off a full hit from the opponent with +100 DB might just be better than the 14.5% physical reduction from CML of equivalent NW...

DB are a good money sink if you have nothing else to spend on. They're good for lower levels especially, and can be useful for a tank wanting to avoid the deadly Exbow.

Sickone April 2 2008 12:42 AM EDT

"Which completely ignores the fact that EBs don't give any evasion effect to non-evasion minions, which is why DBs are useful. "

Well, DBs don't give eny evasion effect besides the PTH reduction, so if you're facing an opponent with a +0 weapon but huge DX, you're toast... well, or anyway, a PTH far under the DB level, any extra + on the DBs is completely useless right now (fighting a +100 PTH weapon ? you have named +220 DBs ? though luck, un-named +100s would have had the exact same effect).

On the other hand, getting a lot of extra DX on the non-evasion minions with high base DX, while maybe not being able to prevent all hits, it sure makes it unlikely to get quad hits on it (maybe even avoid triple hits altogether), while at the same time being able to deal slightly more hits yourself (DX-based light tank).

But yeah, no matter how you put it, DBs are "kind of" weak compared to EBs in most situations, with DBs (of same NW) only being slightly better in certain (pretty unlikely) scenarios.

Tyriel [123456789] April 2 2008 12:46 AM EDT

If I'm not mistaken, negative PTH can reduce the overall CTH if there is enough of it.

So +220 named DB would reduce the CTH of the attacker to 0, in your example.

I might be wrong, though, but I think I remember hearing/reading something about this many months ago.

three4thsforsaken April 2 2008 12:49 AM EDT

As general rule I've noticed

that is possible to get double hits with dex alone

triple and quad hits require high PTH

that being said, the minus PTH is heaven sent for non evasion minions, or those with low defensive dex to begin with.

Also worth noticing that with +100 PTH, you always will hit a minion with no minus to hit. Doesn't matter how much dex you have, you will hit. So my +100 exbow on my enchanter can hit your archer with 2 million dex minion with EB, and drain most of your str easy.

DB are remarkably useful in that sense, and also give a great item to pour NW into for mage teams.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 2 2008 12:54 AM EDT

After a pair of db reduces all of a weapons pth it starts working on the cth. Also dex based cth is capped.

So in the case of having a named +220 pair of db, and the attacker has a weapon +100, all the extra after +100 goes towards stopping the dex. If the weapon is 1 handed, the max dex based cth he could have is 166%. So those db would take that % down to 52%. (166+(100-229)+5)=52% of getting just 1 hit in.

Sickone April 2 2008 1:00 AM EDT

"If I'm not mistaken, negative PTH can reduce the overall CTH if there is enough of it.
So +220 named DB would reduce the CTH of the attacker to 0, in your example. "

The wiki says something else, so either the wiki is wrong or you are mistaken.

First, you compute the evasion effect, by adding the equivalent levels of the boots as evasion and re-calculating the effect (always lower than the sum of effects).
You then substract the evasion level from the PTH on the weapon, but ONLY until the PTH on the weapon reaches zero, or your equivalent evasion level is lower... you can't bring somebody's PTH into the negative, you can only reduce it.

Now, the "remaining" evasion levels (if any) get translated into defensive DX.
What is unclear (and the wiki does not specify) is wether it's actually just the remaining evasion (after you substracted the enemy weapon PTH) or all of the non-DB evasion that gets translated into defensive DX.
Whatever extra "virtual" evasion levels the DBs grant DO NOT get translated into defensive DX (again, so does the wiki say)... so whatever extra plus you have on the DB compared to the enemy weapon PTH is simply IGNORED (or, lost, useless, you pick a word).

three4thsforsaken April 2 2008 1:03 AM EDT

nope, it's called negative PTH

that's how evasion still dodges Koy, as their defensive dex gets pwned.

Sickone April 2 2008 1:06 AM EDT

Well then, can somebody please clarify that in the wiki then ?
That DBs actually DO grant a negative PTH, not just reduce enemy PTH to zero ?

Theoretically then, a +400 DB pair (heh, like that's possible in our lifetime) should render you imune to all physical hits then, if what you say is right, even if you have no evasion trained at all.

Daz April 2 2008 1:10 AM EDT

The point I want to make is that DBs aren't pointless. I want to make my mage minion a Junction mage and not get triple/quad hits on him (and the familiar) - therefore, I use DBs. Thats their entire purpose for my future team. Halving the amount of hits a mage takes is just Huge. Especially given that training dex on it would be a complete waste.

lostling April 2 2008 1:43 AM EDT

DBs have WAY lesser PR rating

iBananco [Blue Army] April 2 2008 3:11 AM EDT

You're actually getting 108 in melee rounds. The fact that DBs don't provide extra defensive DX or get multiplied is what's causing your problem.

Ulord[NK] April 2 2008 3:31 AM EDT

A sizable pair of DB can reduce the number of hits from 3 to 1 in ranged. With the new and more manageable ranged damage barring Freed related madness, that's significant (and the new RoBF: ToE).

Simply put, DB for non evasion trained to reduce hits. Tank damage looks crap all of a sudden when they don't multi hit. EB for more evasion related idiocy. Well change is coming...

Cube April 2 2008 10:03 AM EDT

Sickone, negative pth, and all evasion levels are used as defensive dex.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 2 2008 10:50 AM EDT

more than four hits are certainly possible (even without the ToA) and even +300 dbs would cost double what Freed has spent on AC...

PoisoN April 2 2008 10:58 AM EDT

I can't remember my +30 DBs ever helped me to evade one hit. I would not expect that a 700k item helps to totally negate a 200M weapon like evasion, but it would be nice they could help me to avoid at least a few hits every week. Like a similar valued pair of EB offers 30 AC. My idea is that each + could add a tiny (.21%) chance to evade a weapon hit...

miteke [Superheros] April 2 2008 1:16 PM EDT

As a side comment: 50M NW DBs is not just a USD spenders item, it can also be obtained by patient non-USD spender. Consider that you make 1M+ per week and you get there in a year. For those with NUB, it will come a lot quicker. But you will have to sacrifice.

I have a bloodlust tank that just loves his DBs. Combined with EC and/or AxBow it can totally shut down an opponent, yet still leave you with the slamming power of BL. I know I would easily lose a number of folks on my fight list if I went to EBs. I don't need more dex. I'd also lose more folks on my fight list if I changed to EBs than I gained (if any). I've tried.

It really is as simple as people are saying. Use EBs if you are training a bucket load of Evasion, use DBs if you are investing in another skill and want the protection. It's standard equipment for non-evasion mages. Even a cheap pair helps.

miteke [Superheros] April 2 2008 1:18 PM EDT

"I can't remember my +30 DBs ever helped me to evade one hit."

I'm sure it has. It's just a lot less noticeable when the number of hits changes from 2.7 to 2.4. But it can be significant. +30 DBS will reduce the cth by 30%.

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