Evasion in melee (in General)
April 13 2008 12:13 PM EDT
Well with all the chat about evasion, what really was done this last changemonth?
Yes, evasion got a nerf in ranged only.
But what about melee?
IE vs a 1.4M MPR character training mostly evasion, using the RBF, I only hit him 1 time with the following:
Microchips cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3849532)
1.44M native dex
ONE freaking time.
Imagine those without a USD weapon, whiff city.
So, for all those who stated that evasion would certainly get nerfed when a weapon cap was introduced, I say HAHA. You were so wrong.
Yes, it got a nerf in missile, but the ENC factor makes it almost impossible to have a nice missile and melee weapon AND use armors good enough to compete.
So a lot of tanks have given up using both weapons. Therefore 1 of 2 things happen:
1) Tanks give up on missile, making the evasion nerf to missile not applicable to them.
2) Tanks use only a missile weapon and if they cannot hit in missile, have no chance with the penalties in melee not using a melee weapon.
Evasion has to cut in melee or at least decay in melee. The combination of RBF/evasion is still a large problem in CB. Moreso with the new ENC changes.
April 13 2008 12:19 PM EDT
aint gona say much... just that you want more and more.... guess you will only be happy if you start getting triple hits
April 13 2008 12:23 PM EDT
A 200+M MH, a 3.7M EC and 1.44M dex should only hit a character 1 time.
Yes, If my MH was +150 I may just whiff every round to a 1.4M MPR character.
Quite the balance.
Do you really really believe evasion is balanced in melee?
Or are you stating it is since you abuse it?
April 13 2008 12:23 PM EDT
While normally I'd be with you on this Lostling, I think Ranger makes a pretty decent argument in this case. He has the biggest(?) melee USD weapon around and he has the biggest character, the biggest EC and he has trouble hitting a 1.4M MPR team. Mind you, he probably destroyed the whole team with 1 hit so the fact that he only hit once doesn't say much. Did he miss ?
His point is that equipment, specially weapons got a decent nerf with ENC but in melee EV is still 100% what it was.
On the other side of the fence, I posted yesterday that my lvl 2M RoBF only gives me 5 levels of EV so I don't consider that to be a big factor.
April 13 2008 12:32 PM EDT
well saying triple hits might be alittle over but yea...
lets lay it out
Microchips cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3849532)
1.44M native dex
total 5.2mill lvls + USD wep.... vs errm a character with goodness how much effective evasion... i have no idea so yep...
yes i used 3.8mill lvls because EC is only half effective
do you hit 1 time 100% or 1 time 20% of the time? do you even get 2 hits at any time?
i have the second highest trained evasion in game with almost 45 million xp in it. i also have a couple of items boosting it. how does hitting me in melee contrast with the above example?
i think it is important, once again, to determine what is the culprit here as you used a robf example which does add layers to the equation. also, do you know where your example sits in the evasion trained?
April 13 2008 12:36 PM EDT
Stop using levels of EC this or that.
I know it is 1/2 effective, but it gives my tank an effect of having that much more dexterity.
So 5.2M levels of dex + a 220 MH only hits that character 1 time.
Vs that character, who I attacked 5 times, I hit him 1 time every battle.
April 13 2008 12:37 PM EDT
lol interesting.... didnt notice he was in the top 5 evasion trained... i guess thats its around 5mill lvls there
April 13 2008 12:37 PM EDT
I dont know which is worse, only being able to hit once for a bazillion damage, or only being able to hit once with a variance of +-ridiculous%, which was just reduced by another 40%, only after it goes through AMF/EH/Mgs/AC/Prot/TOE.
April 13 2008 12:38 PM EDT
5mill vs 5mill cancel out i gues... so your weapon gives you say 80% chance to 1 hit him... ?
April 13 2008 12:40 PM EDT
I hit Dudemus' character 1 time in melee as well.
I have no idea what you mean by "culprit".
The RBF lets much lower MPR characters train mostly evasion, letting much higher MPR non-USD tanks whiff during melee.
At higher MPR levels, the evasion is still quite powerful, allowing you to put xp into other skills/spells and still not get hit more then 1 time a round.
I have to ask Dudemus this:
Vs Mkel and his +219 ELB, how many times does he hit you in missile rounds, with base arrows of course?
Myself, with no TOA, and my bonuses as above, only hit you 1 time a round.
April 13 2008 12:43 PM EDT
if your weapon wasnt USD boosted where would it be? how much + would you have on it?
"The RBF lets much lower MPR characters train mostly evasion, letting much higher MPR non-USD tanks whiff during melee."
by culprit i mean, you created a thread regarding evasion and then brought up a robf character. i was hoping to shed some illumination on which might be out of whack here if anything is.
given the above quote, perhaps you should be targeting the robf rather than evasion?
if i had any battles left i would see what mikel can do in ranged, i really don't fight him at all regularly, nor anyone else that i cannot win 100% of the time against.
April 13 2008 12:49 PM EDT
"I dont know which is worse, only being able to hit once for a bazillion damage, or only being able to hit once with a variance of +-ridiculous%, which was just reduced by another 40%, only after it goes through AMF/EH/Mgs/AC/Prot/TOE."
Or one can say:
Which is worse, spending 200M on a MH that hits only 1 time (while spending 60M xp on Ethereal Chains and 14M xp on dexterity), or getting free damage subject to all the damage reduction, but always hits?
All the while trying to balance ENC loads with your strength/dex/hp proportions.
I would have loved, just loved to boost my dexterity, but then would have not enough ENC load to use my MH.
And those who say "well then disenchant your MH", realize I have 80M into the x and over 120M into the +. I disenchant 40M from the + along with 20M from the x, and I will never hit evasion, even with 4M dexterity. At least not with the PTH effect from evasion reducing the dex CTH.
Tanks now have a fine balancing act. Learn strength to boost ENC, or learn dexterity to try to hit evasion. Since if your over your ENC, you lose strength/dexterity/AC.
IE, Edyit with a 3.4M strength and 3.1M HP cannot use his MH (which is almost identical NW to mine) without going over his ENC load by .20. So one can see why I need to have such a high strength as I currently have.
April 13 2008 12:56 PM EDT
The RBF is a culprit at the lower MPR levels, certainly. At higher MPRs, the RBF is far less a factor.
IE: vs Draco, a 4 minion character not using a RBF, I only hit his evasion minion 1 time. When I used a +140 VB, I hit his evasion minion 1 out of 4 rounds.
There is a point with evasion, about 5M or so levels, where it is too hard to get a weapon over that (225) level. Especially with the new ENC factors into place. 7 more + on my MH is 9M.
It is also extremely hard to get over 5+M dexterity (or effect as I use EC to get there) while keeping your strength and hp high enough to use the items you need to actually hit.
Please do not misunderstand my position about ENC. I absolutely love it. It is incredible for the game. But evasion, especially in melee is still far too powerful for the xp investment.
In missile, on can use arrows with their extra PTH to sort of compensate.
April 13 2008 12:59 PM EDT
These are my feelings about evasion and mine only.
I wish to try to keep this thread civilized and on topic.
Yes, we all know and love/hate the idea of a 6M MgS lowering magic damage by 40%. Yes, most agree it too powerful and would like the upgrade curve raised.
So please, there is no reason to bring the MgS into this discussion as I agree 100% with the 2 statements I just made above.
This thread is ONLY for discussion your opinions and mine on evasion in melee rounds.
April 13 2008 1:01 PM EDT
If Jon had carried out what a lot of people thought and put a weapon cap in place; thus lowering the strength and power of the big weapons then a bigger nerf on evasion would have been completely necessary.
But Those Big Weapons Still Have Their Big PTH.
How can you cut evasion further while they still exist?
April 13 2008 1:03 PM EDT
Let's face it, this change month was yet another Tank nerf without any -real- solution to the Evasion problem.
Again, I think Encumbrance was a great change and a brilliant solution to the perceived "USD problem." After all the complaining I did when all these changes hit, I can sit here today and applaud it.
But it should have come with a decay effect attached to Evasion and not a massive weapon allowance nerf. Now the solution to Encumbrance is "disenchant the accuracy on your weapons." Yeah, spectacular idea. Now I get to hit even less verses Evasion Mages and RBFs.
Either un-nerf the weapon allowance, or make Evasion decay in melee rounds. Or both.
April 13 2008 1:05 PM EDT
Are you typing that the ENC is not a weapon/item cap?
I do certainly believe it is.
Look at edyit. He cannot use his MH due to ENC factors.
I cannot use my MsK and MH due to ENC factors.
Without USD, I would guesstimate my MH would be about +150 or so and x6k. Given all the money I lose in other items including over 80M in the VB debacle.
Just look at Shadowsparkle and Lega, 2 non-USD tanks and see what their weapons are. Neither have over 150 PTH. And both whiff vs high evasion minions.
April 13 2008 1:08 PM EDT
If you want to use those weapons you are still free to do so. Yes you take a hit if you do so. But you still have the PTH. You're still using your +228 Morg aren't you? That's not what I call a weapon cap.
from my point of view, evasion has to be very powerful. what other skill can mages use? perhaps if we had a choice of useful skills, like melee characters have, then evasion wouldn't be so darned prevalent and we wouldn't see so much xp invested in it.
it is quite a no-brainer as far as mages are concerned though. do we take a skill or not? with melee you can decide which skill to take. i know adding another mage skill wouldn't make evasion less powerful, but it is very frustrating from the other side of the fence when mages can barely compete in the upper ranks, we only have one skill choice, a large part of our damage is wiped either by randomness or a very low nw item with no counter or counterpart, and then people want to take some of that away as well.
the grass is always greener...
April 13 2008 1:11 PM EDT
A Morgul-Hammer [84x4000] (+139) owned by Shadowsparkle (Failure)
Mages cannot compete?
What a crock.
Just look at the top 11 characters. Six are mages.
April 13 2008 1:18 PM EDT
"If you want to use those weapons you are still free to do so. Yes you take a hit if you do so. But you still have the PTH. You're still using your +228 Morg aren't you? That's not what I call a weapon cap. "
Certainly, I can use a 228 MH and if my ENC is .20, take a cool 20% off my dexterity, strength AND ac. Letting me take more damage vs mages. I do not know if the MgS is effected by ENC.
With less dex I have less chance to hit evasion. So I boosted my strength to massive levels. Just to use the MH.
It is a balancing act as Lord Bob posted.
1) Disenchant the PTH on you weapon to get under the ENC. Less chance to hit but you get 100% of your str/dex/AC.
2) Use your weapon as it is with ENC overload, lowering your dex/str/AC. Hitting less due to less dex, hitting for less damage due to less str, and taking more damage from less AC.
3) Boost your str/hp and lower your dex to get enough ENC to use your weapon. Having less dex to try to hit.
I chose number 3. In fact, I even had to unlearn all my archery (1.6M levels) just to be able to boost you strength to use my MH and all my tank gear properly. Effectively giving mages 6 free rounds vs me.
All 3 choices are not great for tanks. A certain nerf from before ENC came into play. What nerf did evasion coincided with this?
"Just look at the top 11 characters. Six are mages."
and how many of those can you beat regularly?
April 13 2008 1:20 PM EDT
I beat them all.
How many does Failure or Lega beat? Non USD tanks with very high MPRs?
April 13 2008 1:24 PM EDT
Wasn't the current Evasion in melee what we had from the start of CB2? Or was there ever a buff to melee Evasion? I only remember the ranged changes.
so you are saying that non-usd tanks are still not on equal footing with usd tanks? perhaps we need a more restrictive weapon allowance or encumbrance?
then we could look at evasion and see where it needs to be set? perhaps jon is doing all of this already and we are in a data comparison stage?
April 13 2008 1:27 PM EDT
I can't find anything that says evasion has changed in melee since we started.
April 13 2008 1:28 PM EDT
The problems started in CB2 when:
1) DBs and DB effects could lower dex chance to hit
2) when evasion was given defensive dex
3) The AOF super duper incredibly boost skills to astronomical levels. For quite cheap. IE for 8M you can get a 39% boost to your skills. 42% if named. Almost the same abuse as the MgS sees.
With all 3 combined, evasion has taken a new course from CB1.
April 13 2008 1:30 PM EDT
Perhaps Dude, perhaps.
I sure hope that is the case.
Since for months people have been saying "don't worry evasion will be nerfed as it is too powerful".
All we got was a missile nerf to evasion and a soft weapon cap.
well, the difference between usd and non usd tanks is smaller than ever. but it does still seem to be there. if we nerf evasion so that non usd tanks can hit, then we are left with the same usd wins all game.
if we do not do that then non usd tanks are left out. tanks are supposed to cost more than mages to run though. so where is the balance actually set. where it is now, or where usd gives you no benefit whatsoever?
lostling, USD has nothing to do with it, i had a #5 MH by just forging, so it is possible without USD. So that can't be your excuse here.
small you often state that your nw all came from non usd sources, that is great! however for the balance of the game i think ya gotta understand that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it is a duck. in effect, if you have forged and raised more money than by fighting, or made good deals or whatever, if it puts you at a level of usd comparable to usd spenders, then for game balance it means the same thing.
this is why i usually try to say high nw weapons or gear rather than usd weapons or gear though. doesn't really matter how they got there.
I would never say i raise more money by forging than by fighting, cuz we all know, forgers are screwed on that deal till forging is "actually part of the game" (which it is if I'm not mistaken) according to Jon. I just say i have forged many items close to #5. All I'm trying to point out is USD should not be a factor in deciding what levels enchantments *should* be calculated at.
April 13 2008 1:47 PM EDT
Neither Lega nor Failure is on my fight list, and I am one of those rather large mages. Do I count in your data gathering?
April 13 2008 1:50 PM EDT
Only the RoBF foolishness can gather up enough evasion to cut your hits down to one. Then again it's not like an evasion minion has much other damage reduction. You'll probably kill them in one hit anyways. Mages with evasion need to worry about retaining dd and hp so evasion exp is mediocre at best. I bet you triple hit mages just fine ranger...
April 13 2008 1:56 PM EDT
I didn't read the whole thread, but someone posted again about how mages get this whole random damage thing and it made me want to post. Wasn't it proven in another thread that tanks also have a very random damage line also? If not I will post some info on my damage done to a target and show that mages aren't the only ones that get random damage. So please quit using that as an excuse as to why evasion should be so crazy. I am not arguing one way or the other. I just roll with the flow of things, but really, Random damage is around for everyone not just mages.. Thanks and continue on.
random damage was not really an issue for tanks before cb2. i do know that mages have a large variance for the random damage. i think this should probably be in another thread, but since it keeps coming up. i think it would be interesting to start to very low level characters, one with no damage reduction and one with a base dagger. i would also like to know if base melee damage is random now or if damage reductions are random and make the damage look random. if i get way behind on a tourney character i may try it, or perhaps someone not in the tourney already could make a tourney character for testing so it doesn't use their regular ba?
Kirlian Voyager shot Mittar Wall with A Sling of Death 
Kirlian Voyager hit Mittar Wall with A Sling of Death 
Kirlian Voyager shot Mittar Wall with A Sling of Death 
53-100% at the very least.
April 13 2008 2:26 PM EDT
Good news: You get to hit 3x.
Bad news: I also get the chance to hit 0x.
is that a character with no type of damage reduction though? if so, how do you know something else is not affecting it? i ask not because i am sure, but because i truly don't know how to tell what is randomized when we have so many layers these days. i think base weapons against a character with just hp trained would be definitive?
Using a base weapon wouldn't make any sense. Even if damage with a base weapon was constant, what'd be the point? Nobody uses base weapons. I do see your point about damage reduction though. I'll try to find a 0AC, no tat char.
Kirlian Voyager struck deep into Cynjo with A Sling of Death 
Kirlian Voyager skewered Cynjo with A Sling of Death 
Kirlian Voyager skewered Cynjo with A Sling of Death 
69%. I'd test more, but BA is expensive.
it would seem to me that using a base dagger, and low level characters, you would get a better idea of the randomness if it is damage based randomness. also, dealing with single hits would seem important to me as there could be randomness introduced in the multiple hits per round formula. two low level characters, one training hp, str and dex and the other just hp using a base dagger would just seem to be the best method to me, i could be wrong and have many times before though.
April 13 2008 2:33 PM EDT
"if it puts you at a level of usd comparable to usd spenders, then for game balance it means the same thing. "
I would disagree.
People like small and miteke did not spend usd but are penalized like all the USD spenders are.
While people would like to get rid of ALL of the USD influence, it is too harsh to penalize those who played the game like small.
So one has to let/allow higher NW weapons/items that COULD be available through smart dealing and forging.
I have no idea what such items would be, however.
There does have to be some middle ground. Like not making all USD worthless, therefore allowing those who are smart, playing the game pristinely have some advantage.
And Sut, you are always in my statistics. You are a specialized character, however. Are you in Lega's and Failure's fightlist?
the ba is why i thought tourney characters would be ideal for testing. if someone is interested, i can retrain my tourney character into full hp for testing and unequip my armor, that should give a base character quite a few hits for data points. just let me know and i will set him up.
started a new thread for the randomness issue, sorry ranger!
April 13 2008 2:44 PM EDT
But it seems to me, and possibly to me only, that the following is occurring:
We are basing evasion on the worst case possibility, using Koy and Mikel as the basis for what evasion should be.
That is wrong. I thought the ENC addition to CB was to address this.
For Koy, it has changed my character quite a bit. No longer could I rely on a missile and melee weapon. I had to choose 1, which I did.
I also could not use 2 Ethereal Chains and had to convert one to AMF.
This further makes it harder for me to hit evasion as I have less EC to lower defensive dexterity.
So PLEASE, do not state the ENC addition does nothing for high USD weapons.
1) Made Koy a pure melee tank
2) Made it harder for Koy to hit due to less EC
3) Made it possible for more then just 1 tank to do damage with 1 less enchanter casting EC
4) Cost me over 40k MPR in the process of changing.
5) With the strength needed for my ENC load, made it virtually impossible to use BL due to its extreme cost.
Now I know nobody will cry for me, but it still was a massive overhaul I had to do to keep up. And yes, I still beat everyone I fight.
All the while, nothing changed to the effects evasion gets in melee rounds.
Seems to me, evasion got a buff in melee rounds vs USD tanks, with no change vs non-USD tanks (who have tons of problems hitting). Even more then before. So where is the balance people were typing about 1 month ago?
April 13 2008 2:55 PM EDT
Ranger, I'll fill-out the analysis of Lega and Failure a bit...
I am pretty sure I am not on their lists. In other words, we are pretty evenly matched, enough that we can't really be counted either way (that is my point). If anything, I probably have a slight edge on them.
Lega and I have almost the exact same PR. Also, my DM is not wasted on him, as I do a lot of fizzling.
Failure has lower PR than me, but my DM is virtually all wasted on him while his AMF is very effective against me. So, that is sensible and correct, too.
I go for the quick kill, and it fails against tight damage reduction builds. But whatever way you slice it, I don't think you can count me as one of the six big mages who is riding Evasion like a rocket in melee. Hell, I CAN'T last in melee -- I commit suicide.
So, at the very least, take me out of any studies you do on Evasion's effectiveness. As you said yourself, I am a special case. With that admission, I can't very well be counted in any sort of across-the-board analysis, can I? *smile* It is very feasible that even if I were a tank I would end up being about as effective as I am being a mage. My strength is in my DM, and that can work for any build.
That being said, any thread against the RoBF is a good thread. The RoBF still has too much going for it, especially in terms of damage reduction vs. mages. I still think damage reduction is far too strong, especially with RoBF and MgS in the game, and it is even stronger now that ranged was extended and knocked down a peg.
April 13 2008 3:02 PM EDT
Whether or not people can hit you does matter.
IE, can failure hit you in melee at all? If not, that is quite powerful. With CoC you likely would wipe the floor with him.
I am NOT implying you retrain, but others who use evasion/CoC do mop the floor with him.
So his character is basically hosed due to evasions effectiveness in melee.
And, of course the RBF is overpowered, even with its latest lowering of the magic resistance. The ToE was also, but please lets do another thread about those 2 tattoos/runes. I was referencing the RBF due to the concentration it allows in evasion. Lower in the ranks that is very powerful, higher up, even a 4 minion character can get almost physical damage invulnerability to 99% of the weapons out there.
April 13 2008 3:56 PM EDT
The point is made for characters that are below you! If you can only get 1 hit as a very large character what chance does a guy in the dead zone have? You pointed it out exactly. Most tanks who have two weapons that will hit can't use them both due to the ENC. So guys like me get (maybe) a hit in ranged and are butt naked in melee. If ENC limited their (mages) skills and spells they would be coming out of the woodwork singing the blues haha ;)
April 13 2008 5:10 PM EDT
That above WW reply was to me. I asked him to post it in the thread.
The you in question is me.
I still see the solution to this being a decaying minus to hit for evasion the skill in melee... Let the defensive dex stay (because damn it it SHOULD) and give users the option of keeping the massive minus to hit using dbs...
April 13 2008 5:45 PM EDT
That is a fine solution. Something well thought out, giving DB's a place in the game.
Right now, the only people who would even use DBs are archers since they cannot train evasion.
EBs are far better for evasion past (100) or so.
April 13 2008 5:47 PM EDT
I personally now see missile rounds being nearly balanced.
You should use a TOA if going mostly missile and that should give enough dex and PTH to hit.
Can any archer prove that wrong?
But melee tanks mostly use the TOE and have to rely on trained dex and weapon PTH which is way behind the evasion curve.
April 13 2008 6:17 PM EDT
I like novice's idea. Still a reason for the tanks to train dex, and still a reason to use DBs.
"I still see the solution to this being a decaying minus to hit for evasion the skill in melee... Let the defensive dex stay (because damn it it SHOULD) and give users the option of keeping the massive minus to hit using dbs..."
Uhm encumbrance anyone?
If you have a big evasion you need big db's, big db's require big USD spendings, BIG USD spendings is what jon is trying to prevent with encumb.
So bad idea.
Evasion is good as it is well balanced in ranged and if its well balanced in ranged its well balanced in melee, how else can it not be?
Ow and if you can't seem to hit evasion targets try DD that always hits.
April 13 2008 7:12 PM EDT
"Evasion is good as it is well balanced in ranged and if its well balanced in ranged its well balanced in melee, how else can it not be? "
If you be so kind as to read my post up a couple.
3 points to elaborate on:
1) Category of tanks:
a) TOA tanks are archers almost exclusively, so the TOA gives them both dex AND PTH.
b) Melee tanks cannot use the TOA (too much magic damage for 6 rounds to live), so they have less dex and PTH.
If you want to make a TOA melee tank, not using missile, go ahead and try. I cannot get one to work.
So archers have more dex and more PTH (due to the TOA). They generally hit more, therefore evasion has to be upped in missile.
2) Missile damage
We all know that missile damage is far more then melee damage. The ability to upgrade ammo can magify this. So in missile, it can be 1 hit=1 kill. This is far less in melee where you have to hit a few times, at least 2-3 more, then with a missile weapon. The new changes to 6 missile rounds, deemphasized this. But it is still there. Just more rounds of less damage. CoC mages in particular need to have a chance to survive to melee.
3) Weapon PTH/NW.
There is more PTH high weapons in the ranged category. 14 vs 7 by my count, weapons +150 or greater. Since evasion is a USD counter, a multiplier for ranged had to be made. Jon had to recently tweak it, it was still very high.
So, your statement quoted above is completely made without any basis of fact.
April 13 2008 7:17 PM EDT
"Uhm encumbrance anyone? "
Yes, let us have counter to ENC burdens on tanks.
Right now mages can use basically any item they want, except DBs, and not really care.
Yes, mages that rely on AS for HP have a problem. I have asked Jon to fix it, but got lukewarm response from the community.
But, a fair number of tanks have ENC loads to worry about. Let some mages worry about the same. If you want to not be hit, use a nice of NW DBs. With evasion giving defensive dex still, your DBs can be a bit lower then the PTH of the weapon and still have a great chance of not getting hit.
Just prepare to spend some NW for that ability-not getting completely hit for 30 rounds of battle.
Novice's idea is a great solution to what I see as the problem I described.
No that only means mages need to rely on nw and not on xp, the balance between mages and tanks is exp usage and nw usage.
Mage completely rely on exp alone for there damage where as tanks can add damage by adding NW to there weapons.
If this is the case then that is completely against the free/low NW strat a mage offers. And if that is the case then everyone should spend usd to al least compete with others/tanks/mages.
If you feel evasion is still overpowered fine, but don't add nw to the mix please.
i also don't like locking mages in to db's as our only method. we are already limited enough with evasion being the only real skill we can choose. tanks complain about their small amount of choices yet you want to make mages have one pair of footwear that can be used to be effective.
as i stated in an earlier thread it would be okay with me if evasion decayed as long as str and dex are also decaying stats. perhaps all skills should decay as well?
It's not locking it in to force DB use...
Most actual mage strats are quick kill setups, CoC users would be the only ones to really notice the difference as far as mages go, and even then with the minus to to hit only decaying 5-10% a round (second round of melee it drops to 90%, third it drops to 81%, 72% etc) you'd have a LONG time to get the job done. The only people who would have trouble are 0 NW RoBF'ers... even they could spend 10 mil on dbs and be just fine...
April 13 2008 8:32 PM EDT
i have no idea why you keep insisting that EC is 100% effective against evasion...
from what i've seen all your EC does is halve what you train
1,442,502 and since your ENC is 0.2 = 1,154,001.6
total lvls : 5,003,533.6 lvls
vs what he trained in evasion which im pretty sure is around 5mill lvls
you hit at least 90-100% of the time for 1 times during melee... if im wrong correct me
with a +228 MH... lets say if it wasnt that big... say top 5 number 5?
A Morgul-Hammer [84x3133] (+154) worth $69,505,298
228 - 154 = 74 PTH
considering miteke is at 1.8mill MPR... maybe we should add say 1million 2.8mill mpr?
i wouldnt draw any conclusions.... but yea... decide for yourself if evasion is THAT overpowered in melee...
April 13 2008 8:51 PM EDT
EC is 100% effective if you are getting the dex advantage and 50% effective if you are even, and 25% effective if you don't get the advantage anyways. Essentially to get 100% effectiveness of EC as dex you need a lot of levels in it (which Ranger used to have).
Example: Versus someone with 5,000,000 dex if you have 20 dex. 10,000,000 levels in EC brings the dex to 0 so you get full advantage. To get full advantage in dex you'd need 10,000,000 levels in dex anyways, so 100% effective.
Example2: Versus someone with 5,000,020 dex if you have 20 dex and 10,000,000 levels in EC brings the dex to 20 so you get equal advantage. This is just as good as if you had 5,000,000 levels in dex so 50%.
Example3: Versus someone with 5,000,040 dex if you have 20 dex 10,000,000 levels in EC brings the dex to 40 doing nothing, the equivalent level of dex that still does nothing is 2,500,000 so it's at 25% effectiveness.
At least that's my way of looking at it.
April 13 2008 8:54 PM EDT
i believe EC cuts into defensive dex given by evasion so yep 2nd selection
April 13 2008 8:57 PM EDT
When I type about my EC, I am using effective levels, not trained levels.
I full well know that EC works 1/2 its effective level in reducing Str/Dex.
But, like it was stated, I had a +154MH, my PTH total would be about:
154 - 208 (evasion minus PTH) = negative 54.
Dex CTH about 50% from equal dex. My 5M effective EC plus native dex) vs their 5M defensive dex.
So added together 4% chance to hit.
He wants to increase his defensive dex: each xp is multiplied to more then the xp I can put into EC + xp I can put into native dex. He wins that race.
So I have 4% chance to hit with a +154 MH on Koy as it is setup now. And my odds get worse and worse as we gain xp.
Not bad for 1.5M MPR vs 3.7M MPR.
April 13 2008 9:08 PM EDT
but the point is theres no way your going to have a +154 weapon at your mpr lol...
and yes im aware that the EC numbers you posted is effective... thats exactly why i didnt divide them in half again... all im saying its 5mill effective lvls vs 5mill effective levels...
and im saying repeatedly it isnt overpowered lol
by the nature of dex you already have 50% CTH... evasion HAS to take that into consideration... hence the slightly more -PTH which is 202 vs 154(which i think is a gross understatement... no way someone your MPR lvl uses a MH that size lol... should be using soemthing at least 100mill NW)
Not everything is about the people up at the top.
Of course 1.5m MPR vs 3.7m, Ranger should obviously win. If he doesn't have a weapon that can hit somebody less than half his size, he shouldn't be a tank.
But that's 3.7m MPR. What about the people who aren't 3.7m, who don't have USD, and who don't have a massive weapon?
At 1.15m MPR, and with half of my XP (575k MPR worth) invested in Evasion, with modest boosting gear (+11 EG, +25 EB, +5 AoF), totaling about 3m NW, this is what I have:
Raw Level: 2,210,769
Raw Effect: 147
Add that to the measly Evasion my RoBF gives me, and I have 175 effective Evasion during melee rounds, with over 3.3m defensive DX.
Now, assuming you can manage to get 3.3m DX, you still need 126 PTH to have just a 1% chance to hit me. That's over 25m NW on one of the good weapons, just to have a 1% chance to hit. Don't have 3.3m DX? Well, I guess you'll have to dish out another dozen or two million just to hit me. :)
Time to have a look around to see how many tanks around me have 3.3m DX...
Would you look at that, I don't see any. :) I sure hope they have nice, big weapons. :)
And to think, all that I have is 575k MPR invested in Evasion, and 3m NW in equipment.
April 13 2008 9:32 PM EDT
lol correct me if im wrong... but im pretty sure most people have weapons more then 25mill NW lol
Also, let me add in this:
I'm in a bonus-earning clan, around 1.9m score. Prime target for farming, right?
Not a single person attacking me (and winning) is a tank team.
After renting a named +10 AoF, and adding 3 points to my gears, I have two tanks teams at 2m+ PR on my fighlist (Flamey and Miami Vice).
Even before renting and upping, I was beating Miami Vice occasionally, even with UC's massive PTH.
But, enough about me. Let's hear about everybody else's problems with Evasion. :)
Very true. Generally, people tend to have weapons with more than 1 point in the x.
April 13 2008 9:43 PM EDT
a weapon should only be considered to be around 80% of its NW... considering you can get someone to forge it... using the BS to up it at 100% is probably your own choice...
and yes i know that JS
I don't know about you, but I only see around melee 10 weapons with a PTH of 126 or more.
Guess everybody else will have to suffer through whiffing 100% of the time against a 1.15m MPR character. Unless, of course, they have a ToA. But that ToA would still have to be fairly big, and you would still need to have some decent PTH on your weapon.
I count 14 including named melee weapons... and 7 of them are MH
tyriel, very few people will argue with the fact that the robf allows for major concentration in xp. you are only training hp and evasion on that minion correct? that is really quite a massive evasion for your level. my raw effect is 180 and my effective level is 200.
many times in the robf threads i had stated that since the robf allowed for such concentration, should it really add to evasion or actually even magic reduction? i still think that it would go a long way to making it more bearable if it just did its damage and that was it.
April 13 2008 10:06 PM EDT
a tatt that does that kind of damage thats non retaliatable is good enuff... personally if all the magic reduction was taken away i would still probably convert to TOA + SOD but i would still consider it a viable tattoo... (slightly underpowered)... maybe take away magic reduction and + more damage to it
One could easily have a massive Evasion like I do, even without a RoBF. The only difference is that the strategy wouldn't cover as broad a range of targets.
One could train 100% Evasion, and slap on a FF, SF, IF, HF, JKF, and be able to beat any tank team without GA and/or MsK and/or AMF. Not good enough? Train a little DM, and you can beat GA teams, too. Evasion + DM + HF would basically be able to beat any tank team, once the character gets big enough.
Or a single minion CoC mage. Train a huge Evasion, and the rest into CoC and HP. Weak to GA (although if you can overwhelm...) and AMF.
You don't need to have a RoBF to have a huge Evasion. It's just the easiest and most effective way.
with all of those other strats you would need to train more than just two things to be successful, in my opinion. the robf also has one advantage over the magical damage familiars...it is not an entity in itself that can be killed and if you try to get the same effect with a familiar and only boosting it with enchantments, you are vulnerable to dm, which the robf strategy is not.
so, in short yes you could have a massive evasion without the robf at your level. could you have it and actually win against people around your level or even higher as you do now? i don't see how that would be possible.
Without evasion, the RoBF is hardly overpowered. 13.3% of its level in magic reduction? Look at the ToE. I'd gladly tack on a 75% reduction cap if it meant that I could block up to 50% of the tat level in damage. Might I add that the ToE also works on physical, GA, and AMF, AND has an aura? A simple reduction cap of 75-85% would require evasion/RoBF teams to train HP.
April 13 2008 10:22 PM EDT
lol... that would make it too closely like TOE for my taste but lol i dont care :)
April 13 2008 10:52 PM EDT
I stated my case for my thread.
If you want to believe what I have typed, great. If not, great.
I just hope Jon sees it and does what is right for the game as a whole.
April 13 2008 10:56 PM EDT
Just look at Draco's character, Black Sophist, to see how well a diluted 4 minion team can do with a large evasion.
See who can and who cannot beat him with his MPR and NW. Then look at the top MPR's and NW's.
If Draco would be nice and post his evasion, that would be great.
I think it is 5.1M (212) or very close. On a 4 minion team, so it is not concentrated xp.
i am certain he will, it may not be on our schedule though or what anyone of us believes needs to be done.
"Just look at Draco's character, Black Sophist, to see how well a diluted 4 minion team can do with a large evasion.
See who can and who cannot beat him with his MPR and NW. Then look at the top MPR's and NW's. "
i checked him out and he has 11 opponents on his list, the vast majority of which are mages or familiar based teams. there are only two teams on his list with tanks on them and both are well below his mpr. if his evasion is so effective and an example of its strength in the game, why are no tanks with higher mpr on his list? am i missing something here?
personally, with the second highest trained evasion in game, i really cannot beat any higher mages and basically the evasion just keeps lower teams from farming me. i know though that i am not a good example because of being a single minion in a multi-minion game.
Evasion 5,077,450 3,115,000 205 168
Currently if I used my +26 named EB I could have 212 Evasion but instead I use my +140 named DB to give me a total effect of 236... with 236 evasion effect all I need to do is kill all dex on opponents tanks and they will whiff all day long... just ask Edy ^_^
I am also currently using a RoE list so those opponents you see now are ones I can easily defeat with a RoE equipped, barring Nwo...
April 13 2008 11:21 PM EDT
Yes, perhaps more important is who can beat Draco.
Out of all the tanks out there:
Mikel and myself beat him 100%. Freed wins more then he loses.
I would take it that Failure will stalemate and Lega as well. Edy I know already does stalemate. I have no idea about Double Trouble.
April 14 2008 8:03 PM EDT
My point about EC wasn't a choice, it was that EC is more of an all or nothing spell in terms of dex. If you invest heavily in it, then it works just as well as dex, otherwise it's pretty useless in those terms.
April 14 2008 8:29 PM EDT
Going back to your original post ranger, it seems to me that the problem is not with EVASION on the whole, but just with the defensive dex given ala evasion. Evasion should not imo more or less cancel out BOTH the dex given from EC AND the pth on the morg, but should rather cancel out the pth and then give a much smaller amount of dex per level of evasion. I would also revert the multipliers of range combat back to what they were pre nerf. This way, evasion does combat those USD weapons, and gives the EXP vs. $$$ argument in that if you have a small weapon, your opponent who trains evasion is spending a good amount of exp to overcome your small +. However in both cases, (unless there is a GREAT difference in + to level of evasion) the tank should hit the evasion minion out of dex, because now evasion doesnt give as much defensive dex. If you want both, train dex as well as evasion-- exp dilution.
dex CTH will sky rocket at the moment evasion quits giving enough defensive dex.
Ow and this post is again about a single minion character that put 80% of its mpr into evasion, giving him an evasion you would only encounter at 3mil mpr with 4 minions.
If you really want to avoid this discussion again just make it so that the robf gives a huge skill penalty.
Until then its not a question if evasion is overpowered, but the question is still; single minions evasion/robf is "overpowered"
Why overpowered is between these "", because I think is plain normal that you miss someone that put 75% of the mpr available into evasion combined with skill boosters giving it a huge freaking evasion well over 250.
My evasion however (only 25% of my mpr) can be beaten easily by multiple characters including one single archer.
So is the question here asked by ranger:
- Is evasion overpowered? or
- Is a certain strat overpowered?
April 14 2008 9:10 PM EDT
"dex CTH will sky rocket at the moment evasion quits giving enough defensive dex. "
"dex CTH will sky rocket at the moment evasion quits giving enough defensive dex. "
And that wouldn't be good, then you might cancel out PTH but then you still get double/triple hits because of the dex based CTH each round.
And what if you only have a very small evasion triple/quad hits.
Ow yes that would be wonderful more power to tanks and no way to combat it as a mage.
Number of hits is Dex versus Dex (capped).
If you don't have as much Dex as your opponent, you will be hit. Usually multiple times.
Then PTH gives you extra damage, by landing extra attacks.
It was figured that Dex was irrelevant, with enough PTH, you could get the same effect as Dex v Dex, but without having to spend the XP on Dex.
DB's with -PTH where then introudced to counter PTH on weapons, as Evasion didn't have a hope in hell of keeping up with the curve.
It was then realised that there was nothing that could counter a Tanks DEX (EC is *not* the answer, as it's only 50% effective, and then you would therefore have to be twice the size of your oppoent. And if you're twice the size of them, you really should be beating them anyway...).
First, DBs (well Evasion) was givent he ability to lower the Dex CTH if they were big enough. OK. But if your DBs were as large as the PTH you face (which they should, having the same upgrade cost) Dex still wins. And trained EVasion still didn't cut it.
Then Evasion was given defensive only Dex.
All is fine and dandy, utill the RBF was introduced, which gives a bonus to Evasion (increasing Defensive Dex and -PTH).
This item is fine. The perceived problem lies with the ability to conctrate XP into Evasion.
It seems CB has forgotten the ToA, which increasing Dex and PTH is the perfect counter to not only the RBF but the whole Evasion issue itself.
You can't counter everything, and EC is not the answer.
Want to counter the RBF, concentrate your XP like them (stay single) and use a ToA.
You don't want to do that, well, you've really got nothing to complain about.
That being said, I still think the DD reduction on it is silly (and if changed would make the RBF weak to DD as it's thorn) and that Evasion Effect sohuld no longer reduced Dex based CTH, as it's not needed and overkill.
Still. Want to outpace the Evaison of a single RBF user? Use a Single Tank with a ToA.
And if they add an AoF to boost thier Evasion skill (which the RBF doesn't get a benefit from), then take comfort that your EC has been increased versus them (while only at 50% versus their Dex) by the same amount...
April 15 2008 2:09 PM EDT
A single tank using a TOA cannot really use EC. They almost always have to use DM.
A huge problem with evasion is the AoF which super boosts it.
Then the problem isn't Evaison, but the AoF.
Why does the Single ToA Tank need to use DM, if they want to hit single RoBF users? You can't have it all...
its only a problem when its 85% of the mpr of one characters is concentrated in evasion.
Don't blame this on the skill boosters!
Ill be damned if the AoF or any skill boosters gets nerfed just because one character is ruining it for everyone else.
Stop this personal crusade already to get evasion and its boosters nerfed just because you can't seem to hit ONE character.
April 15 2008 2:33 PM EDT
Henk has a point, you can't really complain about the AoF when it's on a Mage because then it's at least boosting any AMFs also.
April 15 2008 2:33 PM EDT
I can barely hit numerous minions but 1 time with all my bonuses to hit.
I would have to go to a TOA to try to hit 2x. And then I would not get much in the way of PTH due to the changes the TOA underwent.
Now, who seems to want to keep things the way they are since it benefits them quite a lot.
When a top character cannot hit MANY characters but 1 time in melee with the largest MH, the largest EC and a decent dex, what do normal tanks do?
Stop trying to keep things the way they are for your own benefit.
EC isn't the anti Evasion.
So you can't trainmore Dex, and you want another of your team to help your Tank versus Evasion. (That's the excuse for using EC).
EC will give you 50% of it's trained level.
Haste will give you a much better 68%. So use Haste over EC.
A Corn boosts both equally, so I'll exclude that. While Haste could be boosted by an AoF on the Tank.
The reaosn EC is more attractive, is that as an EO it can't be reduced in any fashion, while Haste can be by your Targets DM. Also a AoF on your Tank would stop them using an AoAC/Migh and will make them more vulnerable to any EC used by your target.
But Haste is the better option for pure anti-evasion.
Can't have your cake with EC and eat it too. ;)
April 15 2008 2:43 PM EDT
EC is actually better that Haste (assuming no AoFs on either target) if you are very heavily invested as explained above, but then again Ranger just halved his investment in it.
Uhm ranger at your lvl everything is large, including evasion and weapons.
Its all relative at your lvl, you have the biggest mh and the biggest EC but they have the biggest evasion.
The only thing that is skewing this relativety is those evasion focused characters that have (for there lvl) huge freakin' evasions.
And because everything is so huge at your lvl that doesn't mean it implies for 2mil mpr, 1mil mpr or even 500k mpr.
that is the curse/bliss of having the number one character, you really don't know what is playing below you and you only see numbers that imply to you. Not to us low ballers.
And yes I am trying to protect evasion against these crusades, not to protect my own strategy but pretty much every mage strat.
April 15 2008 2:58 PM EDT
The ToA gives both DX and STR, as well as weapon PTH.
So all you -really- have to train is HP. However, to keep up with Evasion, you should also train some DX.
In truth, with a properly sized ToA, pumping money into the + of your weapon and putting enough EXP to DX, an Evasion's Def. DX cannot possibly keep up with you.
The real problem here is EXP dilution. No, a diluted tank won't keep up with Evasion. Yes, Evasion trained almost singularly thanks to, for example, RoBF is killer. And no, none of you are willing to train the DX to match the Evasion.
April 15 2008 3:01 PM EDT
Let us ask Soxjr if he can hit evasion minions,. Single/RBF or mulitple with highly trained evasion.
But let us ask him before he instad to my old Mageseeker bow.
He is a single minion TOA tank who was using a non-USD backed bow. A weapon appropriate for his MPR.
So, Sox: Can you tell all of us if you could hit evasion minions? And were there characters with evasion 1/2 to 1/3rd your MPR who you whiffed on 100% of the time?
As to EC, There is only so much xp a tank can have. Without EC, I would whiff on at least 10 minions in the game. I tested it with a MgS on my tank.
Now, as people have stated, I could lower my strength and boost my dex. 1M less str, 1M more dex. However that would not help much at all. I tested it one time. Given evasion in melee has not changed in months, my old tests are appropriate. AND.. if I lower my strength and boost my dex, I cannot wield my MH, lowering my PTH even more with ENC into play.
What is a tank to do???
Please tell me, go TOA? A melee tank cannot go TOA. Too much damage from CoC and FB.
Change to archer? O joy. Another TOA archer that people can rail upon.
And one of the evasion minions I have tons of problems with is Draco, who is about 800k less MPR then me. Without EC, how can I hit him? Who in melee actually does hit his evasion minion? I would think Edyit and perhaps myself.
With the new ENC loads, melee tanks are hosed even more. ENC was needed but tanks are under the gun even more. EC is an equilizer, just like AMF is to DD.
"Now, who seems to want to keep things the way they are since it benefits them quite a lot. "
barring some supernatural insight into what motivates others, some of us might want to keep things the way they are because it seems to be pretty balanced. i think that since most evasion issues come into play with the robf strategies, that should be where any further efforts at balancing should be focused.
i would add that giving mages some other skill option than evasion might help the game quite a bit. again i ask, what else do we have to use?
April 15 2008 3:03 PM EDT
With ENC, it is harder then ever for a tank to train dexterity and keep enough hp/.str to have enough ENC to use/carry his weapons/armor properly.
And heaven forbid trying to have both a nice melee and missile weapon.
Use a melee weapon and mages get 6 free rounds vs you.
Use a missile weapon and if you do not hit the first 6 rounds, you never will.
April 15 2008 3:04 PM EDT
Side note: Ranger, when complaining about Def. DX being too much for you as a particular case, please note that you are wearing TG, CML, and SC over EG, EB, and EC.
April 15 2008 3:06 PM EDT
Err he has EBs and an EC on, you are looking at his wall not the tank
April 15 2008 3:23 PM EDT
I have TGs for ENC load.
Tanks have a butt load of problem with ENC.
But I do use EC and EBs.
I would love to use DBs to protect vs the 1 hit 1 damage exbow problems I have.
But I am using EBs for dexterity.
April 15 2008 3:26 PM EDT
D'oh, so it is a wall.
Stupid STR. ;P
Nonetheless, I still think that since Evasion is anti-tank, tanks can't just expect to get a free pass in melee too. You have to specifically gear your tank to be DX-pumped enough to beat it. For most tanks, this is not the case.
Ranger don't give me that crap about 6 free rounds. I didn't see FTW beating you when he was a FB mage before the encumb changes and then you had the MSB. After the encumb changes you still beat him and he is a much stronger CoC mage.
But after this you said without the the MSB you give mages 6 rounds for free.
So don't give me that crap unless EC IS returning damage AMF is the one way to kill of any mage pretty fast.
And don't get soxjr involved into this, that is even a worse example. single toa archer with a msb (your old one even) he is attacking those all and powerful evasion character with succes!
April 15 2008 3:31 PM EDT
Odd, when did Sox switch to a ToE?
April 15 2008 3:49 PM EDT
It is quite obvious you want to disagree with everything I post and be very antagonistic about it.
When the top character has problems hitting evasion in melee, something may be off on evasion? Just perhaps. And yes, I do have lower mpr characters I test things with.
But, continue to state evasion is fine. This is my post and if you do not like it, do not post in it.
But evasion in melee does not pass MY smell test-- It smells quite bad.
April 15 2008 3:53 PM EDT
The only reason I beat FTW and Conundrum is AMF. I hit Conundrum 1-2 times a round with my massive 200M MH +228. For about 400k a hit. It is the AMF that does it.
With a 4.5M AMF, I do a lot of damage to CoC mages.
But vs someone like Draco, who is not a mage, all the AMF in the world does not help.
EC does a bit, but still I only hit him 1 time in melee. Just wait if he ever closes that MPR gap. I will NOT hit him in melee.
Certainly not 1 iota of righteousness.
"Let us ask Soxjr if he can hit evasion minions,. Single/RBF or mulitple with highly trained evasion."
Soxjr is wearing a ToE. Not a ToA. Not surprising then that he can't hit minions wearing an Evasion boosting tattoo, when he's not wearing the PTH boosting counter tattoo...
"He is a single minion TOA tank who was using a non-USD backed bow. A weapon appropriate for his MPR."
Unless the ToE is for defensive purposes?
"As to EC, There is only so much xp a tank can have. Without EC, I would whiff on at least 10 minions in the game. I tested it with a MgS on my tank."
Train Haste instead of EC.
"Now, as people have stated, I could lower my strength and boost my dex. 1M less str, 1M more dex. However that would not help much at all. I tested it one time. Given evasion in melee has not changed in months, my old tests are appropriate. AND.. if I lower my strength and boost my dex, I cannot wield my MH, lowering my PTH even more with ENC into play."
"What is a tank to do???"
Train Haste and use a ToA?
"Please tell me, go TOA? A melee tank cannot go TOA. Too much damage from CoC and FB."
You want to beat single Evasion RBF minions *AND* CoC/FB mages?
Cake -> Eat it.
April 15 2008 5:41 PM EDT
I do not want my cake and to eat it also.
I want a fair playing field where one does not have to have a massive PTH on a weapon to hit evasion in melee. Or go TOA and be forced to use a bow. SInce nobody has yet run a TOA melee only tank.
Yes, some use a TOA and a missile/melee weapon, however with the new ENC I do not see how it can be done now and have a nice PTH on each to hit.
"Train Haste instead of EC."
If you remember Koy in the past (I do), it was a massive Haste instead of a massive EC. I did have 1 huge AMF, 1 smallish EC, and a massive haste.
However, vs DM mages my Haste was getting dispelled. As it should be. So vs characters like Sut, I would never hit. Haste is 68% effective to 50% for EC. So I did what anyone would/should do, which is change to EC. Lose 18% for it working all the time.! The overall effect is the same.
EC lowers defensive dexterity which gives the EXACT same effect as Haste would for what is needed. Working all the time for 18% less effectiveness.
I have no idea why everyone who thinks evasion is fine thinks EC is not a solution. It is a great solution. However it and Haste are only boosted by a corn. While evasion gets boosts from EC/EB/AoF/EGs.
One cannot keep up with evasion spending xp on a tank going dex. One also cannot using Haste OR EC.
There are 2 ways to hit. Dexterity advantage and Plus on weapon (TOA included).
Evasion takes away both. The defensive dex makes it almost impossible to get dex hits. The PTH component makes it very difficult, without a USD backed weapon (Soxjr has such a weapon now), to hit.
How is this concept difficult?
Why is it that mages REFUSE to use DB's?
If they want to be missed in melee, they should have to spend some CB2 for DBs. Tanks have to spend money on armors AND weapon PTH AND weapon x. Right now, all a mage or evasion minion has to do is spend money on EB EB, EG and an AOF, get them to reasonable levels and watch their Xp multiply as they spend it.
A pathetic balance right now.
"I have no idea why everyone who thinks evasion is fine thinks EC is not a solution. It is a great solution. However it and Haste are only boosted by a corn. While evasion gets boosts from EC/EB/AoF/EGs."
AoF also effects Haste.
The minion in question can't ever use a EC.
Maybe an answer is to have GS/Haste increased by items as well.
"One cannot keep up with evasion spending xp on a tank going dex. One also cannot using Haste OR EC."
One can. By using a ToA to take care of STR.
"Evasion takes away both. The defensive dex makes it almost impossible to get dex hits. The PTH component makes it very difficult, without a USD backed weapon (Soxjr has such a weapon now), to hit.
How is this concept difficult?
Why is it that mages REFUSE to use DB's?
If they want to be missed in melee, they should have to spend some CB2 for DBs. Tanks have to spend money on armors AND weapon PTH AND weapon x. Right now, all a mage or evasion minion has to do is spend money on EB EB, EG and an AOF, get them to reasonable levels and watch their Xp multiply as they spend it."
Give mages something to spand Cash on the, It's not like they haven't asked for it...
Besides, it not they refuse to use DBs. It' just RBF minions (who aren't mages...) don't gain as much from it as using EBs.
"A pathetic balance right now."
Not really. The balance is there (more or less). But you have to adapt to it.
A single RBF Evasion minion isn't a mage. It's designed to dodge everyone. With the DD reduction, it's designed to be the ultimate defensive set up (well, have't i seen recently that the ToE now tops that?).
It's not really surprising, that if you don't FULLY trick to hit them, you won't.
EC and a Wepaon with USD bought PTH isn't supposed to beat everyone, all the time.
Sorry for multiple posts, missed otu responding to this;
"However, vs DM mages my Haste was getting dispelled. As it should be. So vs characters like Sut, I would never hit. Haste is 68% effective to 50% for EC. So I did what anyone would/should do, which is change to EC. Lose 18% for it working all the time.! The overall effect is the same."
A new item was put in the game to stop EC being the best choice, every time.
Now, there is a reason to use Haste and an AoF. Evenif this leave you vulnerable to a DM based team.
That's why it's cake and eat it time. ;)
You can't expect to hit fully dodging minions, and be immune to negative effects from DM, and live from Mages CoC, all with a single Set up.
one of the key points of a system based on rock/paper/scissors, is that any one character can probably find another character much lower or higher that their strategy excels against or is stymied by.
i find it useful at such times to say overall how is balance going. i cannot really beat any tanks higher than me, and ones much lower than i cannot beat me easily. i am a single-minion though and am probably not a good example. you can beat the highest mage in game who has a higher mpr. you still beat the lower robf minion, but not as easily as you would like. i also have trouble with very low level robf, not so much in that they beat me but that i do not beat them.
balance-wise, i would say if anything is out of whack, it may be the robf. i do have less problems with them now that i have upped my ac a bit. if jon designed them to force us all into deciding between ac and effect based items, then they may be functioning as intended. either way, the only one who really knows if the game is "working as intended" is our maker. this includes the mage shield as well as any other item i think is out of whack.
i do feel that the game is more balanced today than possibly at any time in my five plus years of playing. i do think their will be some more small tweaks to go though, much like the promised nub/ncb final adjustment.
I don't disagree with everything you have to say. But this has gone long enough.
Evasion got nerfed, then it got 50% back why I don't know I guess jon made a judgment call, and yes I know you have retrained you character to have more amf so you can beat those pesky mages.
Why on earth did jon upped the number of rounds and the number of rang rounds in the first place?
It was made so tank have more rounds and thus more chances to hit those pesky evasion characters.
You said it yourself, DD is no problem for a big enough amf so those rounds aren't free for mages.
You have now 25 rounds to hit the evasion characters. I don't think CB battle dynamics is made in such a way that you always hit and you always hit multiple times in one round.
You miss some, you hit some. Be glad there are 25 rounds. You have 25 rounds of damage free rounds, GA damage? heck you have the ultimate gear for that TSA and the MH. Where as mages need to worry about amf and GA all the time (see the other thread) they don't have any leech capabilities.
But then again none of your battles ever last more then 15 rounds because of that really big morg of you.
So what if you only hit for one time per round? You have 25 of them! if you only manage to hit 75% per round that is still a whopping 18 rounds that you manage to land a hit for nice damage and leech.
Stop complaining already man, its getting really old. I don't see anyone with a tank team out there complain so much about every aspect of the game then you. And you have the top spot? What if you didn't had the top spot would you complain so much?
I said way way way back that UC and evasion was overpowered when I ran a tank team. I couldn't land a blow. No one heard that.
I said way way way back that the damage reduction from the robf was way to high. No one listened to that either.
And now you are faced with big evasions and all of a sudden that needs to be nerfed? No ranger the only one that is trying to protect his little number one spot is you.
April 15 2008 7:22 PM EDT
Fine, NP, I will stop on the evasion issue. I can hit and win most battles If another tank wishes to chime in, please. I just know what I see, playing a tank.
So did I eons ago! I already said back then when I was a SoD tank that I couldn't hit didly in the ranged rounds even when I had a massive amount of dex and a pretty big sod. No one listened to me then not even you had any problems what so ever with it.
Then I went SF MM mage, I came across the dreaded RoBF, I already said that it impossible for a 1.5mil SF to no damage to a 500k robf, no one listened then.
Why should everyone all of a sudden start listening to you?
April 15 2008 7:57 PM EDT
I've missed a lot of the thread, but I'm fairly certain that Ranger isn't COMPLETELY talking out of his backside. Yes, Lega and Failure miss me in melee -- once in a while. They usually do get a hit in, a single hit. The power of the hit plus their leech is just about as much as my damage output at that point (since I don't have an MgS to quell their blows).
So I see your point, Ranger. It is strange to see a tank not triple-hitting in melee, sucking up all that juicy, VA goodness. That is seriously what I am used to, from the CB1 days. Tanks rock out.
But this is the part of the discussion where you would generally start talking about offsets. So, can we discuss offsets? From a mage perspective?
MgSes make my life miserable. They tack on entire rounds, taking me into melee where I can't have useful spreadfire (er, I can, it just kills my own team, too). Or, I could switch to CoC and try to survive... Man, I have respect for CoC mages! Talk about needing to make sacrifices! DM folks eat their livelihood. Archers whack them down. Mageseeker bows pluck their best power first. CoC mages have a LOT to try to figure out (we have some great ones in the game, thankfully!).
The next offset is AMF. Unlike EC which just leaves a tank impotent, AMF _kills_ me. It literally does me in without the opposing team doing anything more than cast an enchantment. That's because I can't do enough damage! The classic tank mantra, "But I can hit zero times, you always hit once!" is absolutely moot! Hit once? I need to hit about 3-4 times to even dent some of the damage reduction around here! With AMF/MgS/ToE/PL/TSA/VA in play, the "threshold" for beating teams has become more than binary -- it's downright insane! I have a HUGE MM firing. A large, named familiar boosted by full Junction, large gear, a rented AoF and dual AoLs. And I have a big Fireball -- over 900,000 effective effect.
Lega takes me into melee every time. Failure takes me into melee with 10% lower total PR. THESE ARE GREAT TEAMS! I love ShadowSparkle and hzarb! I really do! Kisskisshughug. They know I respect them, at least I hope they do.
It is not one, single thing. It is not AMF. Or the MgS. Or PL. Or VA. It's ALL of it. There are simply too many layers, and the layers (multiplicative!) are the slam dunk. They are like building City Walls in the first couple of Civilization games. They are like building Ion Cannons in that Caveman game. They just set a baseline of impenetrability that makes everything else a COMPLETELY different game.
And you're worried about Evasion? What else does a mage have?
Ranger was super-correct (as he often is) to point out guys like Failure and the Lega. I tried to point out that they are off my fight list. Can't take them consistently enough any more (even when Failure is wearing an RoE!). And I'm not a total pushover against those guys. I fizzle a lot of Lega's goings-on, and while my DM is wasted against Failure, he is smaller than me (when not wearing a big tat). I always trust the proof in that tasty, sweet stuff I'm about to shove down my gob -- the pudding. I gave up beating the Oxchas and Kings of Pain long ago. Then I gave up on non-bonus characters like Lega and Failure. Finally, I lose to FTW as he rallies up the ranks and dominates ("pwnage", I believe he captioned me with...). And I see more on the way. That's great! I like the fresh blood and sinew! But I'm not standing still, and yet I am becoming non-viable. And you want to take Evasion away too.
That would actually be fine... I could retrain it to something else...Joe's a clumsy monster. Give him a bigger fireball or more HP...big whoop. Won't make a bit of difference on the fight-list or the removal of beatable opponents to come. Hubbell is simply not viable without switching to one of the damage reduction models:
-- RoBF (Huzzah! We all seem to have forgotten about this terrible, terrible aspect of the game! Huzzah!)
-- Wall (high AC -- I respect AC. Encumberance covered this one to some extent...)
-- PL (Lamest, stupidest addition to the game in years. Just a big smear on every strategy out there. I hate this most of all, even more than the MgS (and that's saying something!))
-- Dedicate to AMF or EC, but no DM, that's an offensive spell. DM, the great equalizer of CB2, the dream, the legend, folks, is fracking DOA. It cannot do a thing against damage reduction other than the "meat" damage reduction (AS/GA -- few use that any more).
Having to switch to what everyone else is doing is the greatest indicator that something is awry.
Perhaps the greatest irony is that I am fairly sure (have to dig it up) that I was a guy a while back who lamented that the game had become pure offense. Now it is pure defense. And not the kind of defense you might think! Not DE folks using AS and GA to become a large mass of angry meat, untouchable. No. It's all the new stuff: PL. TSA. MgS. These things, introduced over time, that layer and layer and layer until it is a game of who can muster the most pitiful damage over their walls of raging defiance.
Boring. For God's sake, people, it's BORING!
April 15 2008 8:01 PM EDT
well if you dont change of course its boring... :) if a hunter doesnt evolve to hunt its prey it will soon be extinct
April 15 2008 8:17 PM EDT
I would have far less of a problem if mages who I barely hit used dbs and had to worry about nw on t eir minions like I do. It seems counter-intuitive for someone to make tanks complete miss without using dbs. Again, let mages use db. Spend some nw!
"Again, let mages use db."
mages can use them now no?
perhaps want you meant to say was force mages to use them? that is what i am hearing in your posts.
April 15 2008 8:28 PM EDT
Fine by me. My EBs are already around 15 million, and I was going to crank them once more when I had the cash (taking them to 20 million).
I have about 100 million encumbrance leeway on Joe. Plenty of room. Too bad I couldn't get DAWG'S huge DBs back when they were on sale. Ah well.
So, fine by me.
That helps me stop getting hit. Great. Now, what are you going to do about the damage reduction issues that 98(ignored)% of my post was concerned with?
Then, nope. I want my Evasion. It's all I have, and I want it to be as unfair and imbalanced as possible (to make it more like the damage reduction, you see). Hell, I want Jonathan to buff it, if that's the case.
April 15 2008 8:29 PM EDT
lostling, I completely addressed your "not changing" sentiment. In fact, I used it in support of my point.
If I have to change to a damage reduction model, I have proved it is out of whack.
And if you have an idea other than that, I'd love for you to spit it out so I could give it a try. *smile*
April 15 2008 8:36 PM EDT
well if your out to prove something then dont complain about boring because it certainly is not lol
I would imagine that things like evasion will be reevaluated in a few months as the presence of USD-powered weapons and armor subside.
Remember that evasion was buffed to combat USD weaponry (which is a bad counter to begin with). The USD weapons have been curbed via encumbrance, and it is only natural that evasion will follow suit -- in due time.
And I would not be surprised if allowable NW was lowered even more before evasion comes back down to earth. Balancing a game is not trivial, and changes need time to permeate before they are then changed again.
There is already a conversion of XP to $$. Once encumbrance is secured, I imagine that the evasion curve will be linked to some ratio of the PTH curve much like DB.
April 15 2008 8:43 PM EDT
I respect your enthusiasm.
Temper it with five years, and you will realize that the old farts (at least this one) sometimes need something more to go on. In one way or another, I _have_ already tried alternatives (novice is an OUTSTANDING fellow to vicariously connect to!). I can look at a team and see exactly why it works. High fives all around. Why would I need to try it myself?
And now that an NCB (rightly) costs 150 million+ to do up right, I don't have an alternative in that direction.
Like I said, if you have an idea, spit it out. I would be more than happy to share all of my stats on minions and gear with you. You can give me your ideas. Yes?
April 15 2008 8:44 PM EDT
(my response was @lostling, not NS, in case there is any confusion. NS's post is quite dead-on. Actually, lostling's isn't that far off either. *smile*)
April 15 2008 8:46 PM EDT
"I want a fair playing field where one does not have to have a massive PTH on a weapon to hit evasion in melee. Or go TOA and be forced to use a bow. SInce nobody has yet run a TOA melee only tank. "
Why would a ToA user be forced to use a bow? No Ex/Ax/SoD?
as far as the fair playing field with no PTH, Ranger, you're like 10billionMPR. Skills are kind of high up there, and therefore the effect is rather high too. If they can afford to train a 5M Evasion, you can afford to train a 5M DX with the ToA - after all, it will train most of it for you. Plus you get PTH bonus.
Again, tanks who are not geared to hit Evasion shouldn't expect to every single time, melee and ranged - it is an anti-tank skill!! And if you can't at least train DX comparable to it, then don't whine that melee rounds don't get enough hits.
Hehe, I'll use your old argument from the mage vs. tank debate. Don't like it? Go mage.
April 15 2008 11:24 PM EDT
Please show me a mage with evasion that uses DB?
I cannot think of any.
If a mage really truly wants to not be hit, use DBs and /or EC.
Evasion is just so dirt cheap for the excellent benefits it gets. Magnified by the ability to super boost it with AoF/Elven gear.
But as usual people think this is just Ranger wants to keep something or other on his characters something or other.
I can beat my list just fine. When I cannot, I personally change Koy. My post is not for me, but for a lot of other tanks that have problems with evasion.
But let us just forget about the non-usd tank. shall we?
April 15 2008 11:29 PM EDT
consider this for a moment... if i was your size i would *highly probably* have a weapon your size or slightly smaller
April 15 2008 11:31 PM EDT
granted i would probably have much lesser X but my + would probably be the same
April 15 2008 11:58 PM EDT
I doubt it Lost.
Just look at Failure and Lega. They have weapons about +150. With such a weapon, I would miss Draco more then 80% of the time.
I would hit Conundrum 1 time a round for 4-500k a hit.
April 16 2008 12:06 AM EDT
well doesnt it validate whatever sut has been saying for a long time now? damage reduction is too layered... :) and pray please tell me how much money would it cost to get a x1 +220 MH :)
April 16 2008 12:07 AM EDT
One time a round for 500K? You mean like I hit teams with ToE/PL/MgS/VA?
(and yeah, that's combined hitting, minus all damage reduction, leeching, and regeneration).
Sounds fair to me! And since you haven't said anything about my comments on all that (laudably staying on topic, to be sure), I can only assume you think it is fair as well.
April 16 2008 12:15 AM EDT
I was about right... (thought I might have gotten ahead of myself...)
Against the back minion on Failure, with a SF of level 5.3 million, augmented by big AGs, 33% from an AoF, and 11% from an AoL, the max hit on that back minion was around 750K with that magic missile in the first five rounds of ranged. That's against a 0.20 AMF (big, but not spectacular).
Meanwhile, the TSA is regenerating over 200K a round on the target, and that is not even counting PL leeching.
Oh, and that's without Failure even wearing his ToE. Though I imagine my MM is at the very least overwhelming his ToE a bit... But we are talking a low-AC target with no endurance -- 500K to 800K hitting a round with something like an 8 million level Magic Missile.
I always hit once! Big deal. My choice is basically to switch my entire build so that I can try to get a REAL spell going (like CoC), or just continue to remain ineffectual against targets near my own level. Once again, binary choices.
April 16 2008 12:17 AM EDT
not really binary... but yea talk to you another day... got a lunch appointment
April 16 2008 12:17 AM EDT
About 120M to get a weapon to +220
While there are many layers of damage reduction, the topic at hand is, of course, evasion in melee.
I would be more then happy to discuss damage reduction in another thread. However, it has been discussed quite a lot. The MgS is overpowered, with the + on it needed a hefty boost in cost.
The TOE needs a bit less damage reduction as i stated in one of my previous posts.
The TSA can be used by mages and tanks. Just look at LA, he uses 2 quite effectively.
However, evasion bypasses all those layers of damage reduction to a 0 damage model. Unless you have a large dex (sacrificing strenght) you cannot hit without a huge + weapon.
If you go TOA, then your forced to use a missile weapon. A melee tank cannot use a TOA.
But 1 time a round with a large/huge MH is not much at all. Considering CoC and FB vs 1 minion does over 1M even to my minion with a MgS.
And while there is a lot of damage reduction, DD spells still always hit. Not all tanks do.
April 16 2008 12:27 AM EDT
FTW uses a damage reduction stance. I know mages and tanks alike can use it. And do. That's why I hate it. It's weak, lame, boring, and lame. And weak.
And it is related to the "topic at hand" more than you think. That's my point. If some other things got fixed, we might not be having this discussion right now.
I don't disagree with you about Evasion. But until you give me another way to defend myself (and DBs won't cut it against the uber-weapons still able to be yielded even in the Age of Encumbrance), a way not based on boring-butt layers of samey PL/TsA/MgS/yada/yada, then I will fight with every fiber of my being to keep Evasion and even get it enhanced. Even while knowing Evasion is wrong and binary and dumb and stupid.
Clearer? Can you see how by looking at the more-encompassing picture we can actually be on the same page?
Oh, and running test against Lega, my familiar only lasts two rounds -- and usually is lucky to do 200K per missile against the back minion (less against Lorni because of the MgS, I saw it go as low as sub-100K). Mid-level damage from an 8 million level spell -- the most concentrated magic possible without switching everything up and trying work CoC (and I already know how that works, other teams do it already, and do it better than Hubbell ever could).
I've pretty much decided that as long as damage reduction is set up the way it is, I will never agree that Evasion is overpowered. In fact, I will do everything I can to see that it be made stronger, and I have plenty of data to back it up. It's the only defense.
April 16 2008 12:31 AM EDT
+300 on a whip is less than 31mil..... pity about the damage though
"However, evasion bypasses all those layers of damage reduction to a 0 damage model. Unless you have a large dex (sacrificing strenght)"
Ranger, c'mon. *cough* EC?
However, EC bypasses all those layers of damage reduction to a 0 damage model. Unless you have a large str (sacrificing dexterity)
April 16 2008 6:50 AM EDT
So before people were stating that EC is only 1/2 effective but not it is fully effective.
Just look at the xp needed for the desired effect. I had to have over 9M levels trained in EC to lower all tanks but 2 to 0 strength.
However, someone with 3M levels of evasion can effectively neuter all but 3 or 4 tanks.
Very equal analogy---NOT.
Uh skill boosters? my skill boosters give me about double the trained evasion and I am not even using top notch stuff.
So 3 mil trained + skill boosters is 6mil effective.
April 16 2008 8:28 AM EDT
so a mage using AOF + elven stuff is to be complained at because of boosters? ... then why dont tanks use the same stuff too? it also boosts archery and blood lust and UC ...
For the record, evasion makes it insanely difficult to hit with UC, not that anyone really cares about that corner case :)
April 16 2008 8:54 AM EDT
"so a mage using AOF + elven stuff is to be complained at because of boosters? ... then why dont tanks use the same stuff too? it also boosts archery and blood lust and UC ."
I would love to be able to use the AOF to boost my dexterity as much as evasion minions use it to boost their skill, But alas, it is a skill only thing.
Whoop, i can use it to boost my evasion, it does not help me hit evasion. I can use it to boost my BL, but 60% damage bonus to missing is still 0 damage. I can use it to boost my archery skill but then again 100% chance to hit means nothing if I cannot even hit in melee with the same + weapon.
What about a new skill that adds PTH? Then we can use the AoF.
And please stop about the TOA. One HAS to use a missile weapon with a TOA. That makes all tanks basically archers, nice choice there. I differ on the thought process of the TOA then perhaps most of the people in CB. I believe the TOA grants additional hits, it should not be a requirement to be able to hit one time. If that is the case (needed it to hit), then the only tanks should be TOA ones. However, while I do and did state mages should use the TOE, they certainly can do well with the IF/SF/FF. Just look at novice and PoisoN as 2 fine example of mage play done extremely well.
And forget about having 2 high + weapons with the new ENC factor.
And I possibly think Henk and I agreed on something a post or 3 ago. If so, WHOOP!!
The problem with evasion is the ability to have a relatively small investment of xp, compared to other minions in the equal or above MPR, and get such a boost to your skill from items, it skews the system.
Yes, I know USD weapons do the same, however ENC is designed to lessen their impact. While ENC was made, nothing was done for evasion in melee. And to me, it seems we keep titrating the evasion skill to the very top weapons, not the average weapon someone would have at a certain MPR, or something a bit above that. No, we titrate to the most uber of the weapons out there.
April 16 2008 8:57 AM EDT
How about we let the AoF boost dexterity?
I can live with that. Give my tank a chance to gain the same benefits evasion minions again.
Lets try that and see how it works.
April 16 2008 8:57 AM EDT
Why can't a melee tank use a ToA? There are plenty of damage reduction mechanisms out there in order to do so. A melee tank can for instance train evasion or place an evasion wall on the team. Mage shield wall on the other end and whoop; there you go. A large AMF, A large EC. Add a morg and you've a team that can last out ranged.
OK, it might not work nearer the top, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work lower down. And looking through ToAs, while the majority of users are archery there are melee based teams in there, one of which does almost exactly what I describe above.
3% per point you probably have a +12 AoF around 36% to dex? I don't think so.
Combine that with a ToA and no evasion can combat that.
And again you have 25 damage free rounds you can use why should every battle only last 10 rounds???????????
So have stat boosters not affect ToA ST/DX.
April 16 2008 9:27 AM EDT
Ranger, you say your 9 million level EC is barely enough? Well, my 8 million (equivalent) level familiar isn't even close to enough. So, once my 8 million level is useful, I am all for making your EC more useful, too. Let's start there.
April 16 2008 9:50 AM EDT
IF your SF was an IF, would it be more effective. I think so, just ask novice.
If you can make a TOA melee only tank work in the mid to higher levels, please please please show me how to do it.
Even if you have a MgS wall, the TOA tank cannot use much armor and takes plenty of FB/CoC damage. No way a melee TOA tank can make it to melee vs FB and CoC. Well they can vs CoC but will get creamed in the first couple rounds. At least the tank will. The wall may be alive but then as the last minion gets crushed.
I tried Koy as a TOA tank and lost to 5 mages. CoC and FB ones.
But like I said, if you can make a TOA tank that can beat mages and tanks, not those well above, but near your MPR, I will be amazed.
come on you said it yourself, big enough AMF will kill those fast enough.
April 16 2008 10:04 AM EDT
/me finds a way to hack the server and let me junction a TSA to a COC familiar
April 16 2008 10:11 AM EDT
Ranger, we are exactly in the same boat.
I can't switch to an IF without re-doing my whole strategy into a defensive, damage reduction stance. Lega kills my familiar by Round 2 (anyone with a decent Mageseeker would). That's three rounds away from the familiar even getting one shot off.
To combat that, I would have to become Violent Femmes exactly (DE dependency). What would be the point of that? To copy a brilliant tactic and swap a few people out, but lose to Dix and NWO? I obviously could not use a ToE if I switch to IF. I don't have a Mage Shield. My side minions cannot be effective walls or PL batteries without unlearning all of that sweet, sweet DM.
So, while I would like to see my current stance become more viable by toning down the layers of damage reduction, I am fully aware I am not ENTITLED to that. I have made my choice and need to suck it up. Could I copy FTW or Violent Femmes and radically alter my fight list? Sure. But what is the point of that? Add 3-4 people and take 3-4 off? Pointless.
You are in the same boat. Your plaintive cries boil down to: "I INSIST that a melee-only tank, sans ToA, be viable!" Well, sorry, Hoss. You aren't going to get what you want any more than I am. It's choice time. Except for you, choice isn't even really required since you can already beat pretty much everyone. Not so, for me. For me, with my current minion configuration and net worth (and my entire lack of interest in spending more USD) a change in stance ALWAYS results in gaining some people and losing others.
And trying a re-do with an NCB is no longer an option (too expensive), and as a supporter I cannot go off the radar for a year then come back to a NUB.
So, I've decided I am going to hold on to what I have and fight for things that I know are not very fun (like the binary nature of Evasion and the tough choices tanks have to make, especially non-USD ones). Jonathan is still tweaking and making changes, so it might get better. Or, he might keep on adding multiplicative layers of damage reduction and auras and such and make the game even more dull (for me). As long as CB as a whole thrives, my thoughts and needs don't matter a whole helluva lot, nor should they. Your thoughts can mean whatever you think they should, but I can say for very certain that you aren't entitled to having a melee-only tank without a ToA work in the game better (which is what your comments are boiling down to at this point).
April 16 2008 10:12 AM EDT
Heh, neat idea, lost, except even a TSA could not save a CoC familiar. Especially when the CoC familiar is already dead before even getting to fire a shot. *smile*
and if it doesn't die from ranged...
Gordon Gano's familiar takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (1115911)!
April 16 2008 10:41 AM EDT
I would love to have a missile and melee weapon.
In fact I did have 2 of them +228. However I could not use both of them due to ENC loads.
HOWEVER, I did change my whole strategy to compensate for that fact.
You continue bout your SF/FB not doing any damage yet again refuse to adapt and change your strategy.
You seem to want to talk about not diong enough damage due to all the layers of damage reduction. Ask LD about his damage reduction and the benefits it gives vs Conundrum and VF.
"Even if you have a MgS wall, the TOA tank cannot use much armor and takes plenty of FB/CoC damage. No way a melee TOA tank can make it to melee vs FB and CoC. Well they can vs CoC but will get creamed in the first couple rounds. At least the tank will. The wall may be alive but then as the last minion gets crushed."
Ranger, you're a much better tactician then to ask this...
Add a TSA PL minion. There. Your Tank lasts.
Besides, the whole ToA melee point is for hitting single RBF minions. Let's not swerve the discussion away form that.
With no Ranged attack, a single ToA Tank can easily live to Melee (lol), to hit the single RBF minion.
If you can't live versus signle FB/FF teams, but hit signle RBF teams in melee, well then, it's back to cake and eat it times. ;)
Seeing as the 2nd largest CoC takes 20 rounds to take out LD I think his damage reduction is working pretty well, shame his damage output is so low versus conundrum's amf/mgs wall :P
April 16 2008 10:50 AM EDT
And I am not INSISTING about a melee only tank.
The new ENC factors made that decision for me. Either be a TOA archer with a MSB that almost never hits, or if it does for 4-500k a hit, or be a melee only tank with a TOE (to live through 6 rounds of DD) and try to hit evasions in melee.
Your strategy is for the quick kill. At lower levels, that is a fantastic strategy. However, near the top ranks, where there is a bit of damage reduction (I will not debate that, it is certainly true), it is less effective.
Again, as in my previous post, look at LD.
Just because you are philosophically against walls does not mean you should not use one if it will boost your effectiveness. Sometimes stubbornness is a bad thing. Especially in a game that rapidly evolves. I have lost tons, at least over 300k MPR, untraining, and retraining Koy throughout the game.
Please, let me know what type of tank will work in CB with all the bonuses given to evasion, especially in melee. Perhaps I envisioned evasion differently then most other people. I did not see it as the end all skill to make tanks whiff for 30 rounds. I saw it as a way to keep mages alive long enough to try to deal damage to tanks. Perhaps I was wrong. Jon may certainly want it so without a super + NW weapons, tanks will be whiffing at mages and evasion minions all day long, hoping their AMF is large enough to take out the mage. Then use the tank as a "clean-up" type minion, instead of a primary attack one.
Perhaps that is why AMF gives backlash and EC does not. I do not know.
April 16 2008 10:55 AM EDT
Show me 1, only 1, TOA melee only tank that has a score=PR.
Also, ask Soxjr, with his TOA and a normal for MPR MsB if he has trouble hitting non RBF evasions minions. I certainly know that answer.
If a single minion TOA tank cannot hit normal evasion mages, what does that say for the game.
Ranger, do you think it's balanced when a character as large as yours could equip both the largest Ranged Wepaon in the game and the Largest Melee?
For (potentailly) the largest Damage/hit chance for both Ranged and Melee combat?
Personally, I like the strategic choice of now having to decide if you want to be Ranged or Melee orientated, or to have a weaker option in both.
Show me 1, only 1, TOA melee only tank that has a score=PR.
No. It proves nothing. That depends on set up, current targets, how much thier farmed etc...
Hell I could go make a low level Tnak with a lesser ToA and equal your requirement with limited effort. What does that prove?
"Also, ask Soxjr, with his TOA and a normal for MPR MsB if he has trouble hitting non RBF evasions minions. I certainly know that answer."
Same size? Same minion count? Same NW? ToA at MTL?
"If a single minion TOA tank cannot hit normal evasion mages, what does that say for the game."
They need more Dex? Or more PTH? Or a larger Tattoo...
So, are you compalinign about AoF using signle RBF minion, or every Mage that trains Evasion?
How about every Tank that trains Evasion? Surely they are more 'broken' with thier own DEX on top of Defensive DEX than an Evasion Mage.
Man the focus of this thread keeps changing!
April 16 2008 11:06 AM EDT
I have stated before and will yet again. I believe the new ENC factor is outstanding for the game.
No, I do NOT believe I should be able to equip both the largest MH and MsB in the game. I had thought my opinion on that was perfectly clear many posts and threads ago.
I agree completely it is wonderful to have to make a choice between 1 large jumbo weapon or 2 medium weapons. The first day or 2, I was wrong in stateing my objection to that. I have rethought my opinion and agree with you 100%.
That stated, a tank has to give up range or melee in order to get a weapon high + enough to hit high evasions.
So if your melee, you give mages 6 free rounds (or 1 if it is a CoC mage with its very high damage).
If your missile, you have to kill the evasion minion in 6 rounds or you will never hit in melee due to the penalties in melee using a bow/sling/xbow.
This is why I propose a decaying evasion effect. 5% per round to defensive dexterity. Let the PTH stand, but give tanks a chance to hit given enough time in battle.
If a tank can live for 10-15 rounds then let them have a chance to hit evasion.
BTW: I did not have the largest missile weapon. Freed's SOD and ELB along with Mikel's ELB were bigger.
April 16 2008 11:13 AM EDT
Ranger, lol... You only read every other word I say, apparently... I don't CARE if I can do better. I don't feel entitled to it! Yes, I will ask LD how he fares against VF -- as long as you ask VF how he fares against ME. I obliterate VF. So does NWO. What is the point of gaining Oxcha if I would then lose to NWO (and probably VF himself)? What sort of fantasy planet do you live on?
Read what I say! You keep saying adapt adapt adapt -- I have talked through all the viable cases of adaptation and I KNOW the outcome already. Why would I waste MPR on retraining when I ALREADY KNOW THE OUTCOME! That's asinine! Do you try things that you know full well are not going to work?
When you adapt, you relearn one or two things and shift copious amount of gear around. Contrasting that, I would have to retrain EVERYTHING, and I HAVE NO GEAR to move around. So please explain to me what sort of worthwhile adaptation I should be doing (note to all: this is where Ranger will say he has already made clear what I can do, it is obvious, and I am just refusing to change...I'll leave that comprehension exercise to the reader as to whether or not that is truly the case).
Ranger, I want you to tell me what I could do to change and actually gain someone on my fight list. Simply copying someone else is certainly an otion, although very lame (read: it probably means I won't do it) I have asked you to tell me that in the past, have CMed you about it, and have even offered to make it a contest (with Hubbell as the prize!). The rules? Without increasing NW any more than normal fighting or forging could (i.e. no USD and no transfer of high-end gear from elsewhere), and without retraining absolutely everything (a 2% loss in total MPR is DEFINITELY not worth it, IMO), make me have a net gain on my fight list.
I've already looked at the examples. I know how RoBF teams work. I know how PL works. I know how the ToE and MgS work. I've already run the numbers. You compare me to you even though you have a MASSIVE tattoo (40% larger than mine!), loads of gear, and the second highest MPR in the game to play with. An absurd comparison. Question: Can you beat King of Pain? If not, adapt so that you can. And don't lose anyone else on your fight list. Let me know the outcome.
April 16 2008 11:34 AM EDT
An example of "adapting". Just to feel out how Ice could work for my team, the first thing I try is a simple tattoo re-ink.
With my tattoo a massive IF, I lose people off my fight list. Only one, though, Giggety Giggety.
I gain no one. Teams like Oxcha and Edyit still don't even lose a minion.
Instead of drawing with Failure, I lose. Instead of drawing with Lega at worst, I have a mix of drawing and losing.
Everyone else remains the same because my massive Fireball can clean up some teams all on it's own. But the IF brings nothing to the party. NSes would make no difference, because it isn't the backlash killing him. For example, Lega kills him in two rounds, just like I already knew.
I have already tried FF and SF -- they are pretty much interchangeable. I generally settle on SF because it is a nice offset to the FB I already have going.
Next, I will try some Hal to see how he does these days! *smile* Then ToE on Joe. I expect that 1.6 million in ink fees later, I'll know more about my options.
April 16 2008 11:36 AM EDT
The thread is like most, degenerating.,
I am responding to your multiple layers of damage reduction and your continuing statements that I read about not doing enough damage.
There are ways to do far more damage, IE CoC and/or IF.
I did not just tweak my strategy this month. I unlearned a 4M EC and made it AMF. I also unlearned nearly 1.5M archery and boosted my HP/str. I also unlearned 2M AMF on my wall and boosted my HP/Str on that minon. Not minor changes. And kept the gear the same. I lost over 45k MPR in retraining.
I can beat KoP. So?
The points I were trying to make are:
1) Last month, I read from TONS of people that: "yes, evasion is broken but wait till changemonth and Jon will CERTAINLY change it".
2) The major change was ENC load which, I hope you agree, hurt tanks far more then mages. Now tanks cannot have a super duper incredible missile AND melee weapon. This I have no problem with.
3) While evasion in missile rounds was changed, NOTHING in melee was changed. The RBF/evasion strategy is as good as ever, perhaps boosted with ENC in play.
So, where are all those people who stated, in fact promised, that evasion would be changed/nerfed if a weapon cap or type of cap was put in place?
Hiding in the woodwork it seems. Or using the same arguments that evasion was never overpowered in the first place.
Ranger, Evasion in Melee was never the focus, nor problem with the pre change month Evasion discussions.
It was *all* about the Ranged multipliers, and hitting the RBF before Melee. Which has been adjusted.
I still stand that Evasion doesn't need to take CTH after PTH, but that seems to not have happened this change month, if it ever will. But that would be my change to Evasion.
But again, Evasion in Melee was never considered the problem. It was always the ranged bonuses that it got.
April 16 2008 11:51 AM EDT
The thread is degenerating? Because of me? :\
See above. IF does nothing. No amount of rejiggering would make the IF viable unless I simply became Violent Femmes. To stop the thread from "degenerating" further, it would help if you directly answered some of my questions:
-- What is the point of me simply becoming VF?
-- How can I afford to furnish a substantial Wall? (after my tattoo experimentation I will have essentially no cash). You are talking about the poor tanks that cannot afford stuff without USD...that applies to me as well.
-- How can I make a PL battery effective when all of my side minions are small? (why do you think I use a Familiar in the first place!) Some of the last minions Little Anthony purchased are BIGGER than my side minions! I'm not sure you realize just how small they are.
I would find it very constructive, and the opposite of degenerating, if you could help me with these questions. I have tested the IF, and ice does not help me. If I switch Joe to ice and use a ToE, then I will be Conundrum (only not as effective because of my smaller side minions). If I forego all of my DM for AS, then I become Violent Femmes. I have no interest in becoming VF. I am honestly looking for original ideas here. Tell me what I can become.
I am playing with Hal -- he's fun. Not very effective though. He actually acts as better meat in some cases, though, since he does not have to face AMF backlash. All in all though, my fightlist would remain unchanged with Hal, and my closeness to beating Failure and Lega diminishes.
Next I will throw a ToE on Joe just to see how long he can last. If there is promise there, CoC on the straight mage could work (like I said, I would just basically become Conundrum).
I am open to any additional ideas you have, and find these discussions worthwhile and "generating". I am sorry if you find the discussion degenerate.
Why not try a fb/coc combo. Maybe untrain the smaller dm and use it as a rear wall to buy you some time. Exploit the fact that coc gets better the less amount of targets you have.
April 16 2008 12:11 PM EDT
"3) While evasion in missile rounds was changed, NOTHING in melee was changed. The RBF/evasion strategy is as good as ever, perhaps boosted with ENC in play.
So, where are all those people who stated, in fact promised, that evasion would be changed/nerfed if a weapon cap or type of cap was put in place?
Hiding in the woodwork it seems. Or using the same arguments that evasion was never overpowered in the first place."
I'm hiding in the woodwork simply because I'm bored with my own arguments. I hate to think what other people reading these posts think.
As GL says above, evasion in ranged was always the problem. Whenever anybody brought up evasion it was how it was set up with the bonuses in ranged. It was almost always as I recall about archery vs evasion as well. If it was really a problem before then where were the huge postings about evasion in melee?
As a regular evasion user I know for a fact I've been nerfed, especially as I have longer ranged to get through now as well. Which is why you don't see many tanks on my fightlist. Whereas before most of my fightlist were tanks.
April 16 2008 12:12 PM EDT
My final test: ToE... Glad I did this one, it is at least illuminating!
ToE lets me keep my fight list. Failure and Lega remain exactly in the win/draw/lose area, with Failure being all losses instead a mix of draws and losses. Can't touch anyone else.
But that's with Fireball, and without retraining my Junction (don't need that with a ToE. Bottom line: I could certainly become Conundrum. However, I already knew that.
So, I could become Conundrum. Add 35 million NW and I could be just like him, except with four minions instead of three. That's my option.
Frankly, I don't want to become Conundrum. I notice Con does not fight NWO or Dix. I'm not sure why, I would assume he can't beat them regularly. I can, and that was what my team was built for). I would assume VF would give him a run too, if they fought (same clan) So, I would gain 3-4 folks and lose 2-3. Would probably be a net gain of 1 or so. If it were something that wasn't a straight copy, I'd probably do it after saving up some cash and securing some gear. As it stands, I see no point to it (especially if and when Conundrum buys a fourth and becomes a better version of it all around.)
Ranger, if you have any ideas other than CoC, I am all ears, and would love to hear your analysis in light of my musical-tattoos activities...
April 16 2008 12:15 PM EDT
Atomicboy, please read above. I did try FB/IF. Didn't help.
You can also read the post I made directly before this one -- Yes, I think I could become you, and might even have a net gain of one target or so (I am wondering, can you beat VF?) But I really don't see a lot of point to that in this rock/scissors/paper world.
April 16 2008 12:17 PM EDT
And if I convert even one of my DMs, I will start losing to NWO, Dix, and VF. I am almost certain of that. If I switch to a damage reduction model, I need to switch out everything, go ToE, and invest in some wall gear for the back. Like I said, I would just be becoming Con. *smile* And while there is nothing wrong with that (great team!), there is not all that much point to it, either...
Dixie: amf kills me
NWO: I don't win consistently due to dd randomness.
VF: Last time i check he beats me his CoC is huge and VF just does well vs amf teams. He gets to cast his huge AS.
Don't go the reduction route. I am kinda sick of it myself, but cone of cold is not really viable any other way.
April 16 2008 12:22 PM EDT
OK, thanks for the input. So, I would lose those three off my list, but would gain Double Trouble, Failure, Oxcha, and pffft... And Lega. Net gain of 2, I think. I can't think of anyone else I can beat that you wouldn't, unless more DE-users start rising through the ranks... (I keep waiting for that! *smile*)
Emulate VF, new players! Please, for dear old Hubbell! *laugh*
April 16 2008 12:26 PM EDT
You shouldn't be sick of it...think how great it will be when you add a fourth! Yes, I could go the VF-route, but isn't using DE just as boring using damage reduction? I wish I could think of another idea, but my tattoo testing this morning has convinced me there isn't much else. The only thing I haven't tried in a while is MM/SF... But that is what I was running for a long time back in the day. Without some FB in there to clean out the chaff, it doesn't work so hot (at least not any better). Dual MM is as powerful as one can get short of CoC...
I suppose I _could_ try a fireball on a side minion, and THEN dual MMs. I have thought about that before (want to say I even tried it...). But one needs a big Fireball to even get through the chaff on some of these opponents... Gah, I am giving myself a headache! *smile*
April 16 2008 1:15 PM EDT
I may be losing my mind, but evasion in melee was certainly brought up in the past and many people agreed it was overpowered.
It was no just melee that was the problem.
Sut, you have over 5.3M effective dispel.
Who do you need all that against?
Could one of your dispels be better suited for another spell? Perhaps EC to lower attacking tanks dex? Or GA? or a HP/PL minion?
Even if you do not completely 100% dispel all of someone AS, perhaps other spells would help you far more then the "overkill" you have with your current DM.
April 16 2008 1:39 PM EDT
Interesting thought. Untrain one of my DMs for EC... Er, how would that work? I suppose I could also train AMF with one of my unlearned DMs? *smile* DM is a tough choice and a loner road. EC and AMF are obviously out of the question. Unless I unlearn ALL of the DM (which is what I said in a previous post).
AS? Sure, I could learn a second AS. I think that's a brainddead move (since DM will just eat both of them, but yes. It's an option. It just isn't a very _good_ one.
(I do assume you know I only want _good_ ideas, right? If we were just throwing our pure possibilities, how about 4T! TTMM! EEEE! Huzzah!)
PL? Yeah, I could do that. 20 HP doesn't go that far. So yes, I could unlearn a DM (not all of it, not even on just one minion, I would get wracked by NWO if I did that -- I have to, at the VERY least kill off all GA), learn some HP, and add some PL... Problem is, I would have to ditch all this fireball because PL isn't going to help when I fry my team.
So let's back up and think about some fundamentals. Fireball is bad. It's also crucial for clearing out chaff. As I said above to AB, maybe I can learn a third offense, a small FB on my junction minion (already has the AGs and HoC), and then switch everyone else to MM. That's idea number one, and I will probably give that a try if I can figure out how to make it big enough and have enough HP that the guy doesn't kill himself on AMF (20 HP is at least better than dead, it eats an MM). Might even unlearn my AS for it, and then learn AS on one of the other fellas. *shrug* These are all things that probably aren't going to make or break the fightlist, and they are things I have considered before (but dismissed). The people I beat I beat easily. The people I can't beat I can hardly take out a minion.
That's because of DM. I honestly don't know how much you have played with DM, but I built a whole character from the ground up with that in mind. Studied a lot of tape, as it were. It leaves me high and dry against some folks, and that's not the worst part. The worst part is that it is hard to tack anything onto. I can't learn EC or AMF. I can't learn enough HP or AS to really make a difference. DM has more vendor lock-in than any other enchantment.
That's why I say, from my viewpoint, the only changes worth considering seriously are fairly radical. For example, ditch the DM and go ToE/CoC. That's Conundrum, and even he says it's a bore. Or, I can ditch the DM and go all DEs along with CoC. That's VF. All valid choices. Just not particularly good ones. *smile*
April 16 2008 1:56 PM EDT
Followup to the fizzle question... The highest GA in the game, augmented by a fairly average +11 Corn will throw down at around 4.5 million. So yeah, I have a bit of overkill there (not really enough to unlearn, but I should definitely start learning something else...)
The highest AS in the game augmented similarly would cast around level 5.6 million -- more than my total DM. Redu Lu lands 155K HP on his team members through my DM. Now, you might say 155K is paltry. But you should see my blows against ToE/AMF/MgS builds -- in that first round I am lucky to exceed 50K in damage when my FB spreads. It's not a big deal, I still win, but anyone who says a 5.3 million DM is absolutely absurd is simply incorrect. Yes, I should start learning something else, and I have been a bit lazy and on auto-pilot during training, but my DM is not that excessive. It absolutely HAS to stop all GA, and it needs to take out more AS than you might think.
OK, to get back on topic, the bottom line here is that I want ranged to be more viable for my build. Ranger would like to see melee be more viable for tanks holding lesser weapons (Ranger himself is doing fine). So why am I being considered to be degenerating the thread? I'm not tilting at windmills any more than Ranger here. He wants a melee-only tank to be viable and has rejected any and all ideas people give him to make melee tanks work better or to switch to something else. I want a range-only mage team to be viable (and have rejected most all ideas given to me on how to make it work better or what to switch to).
What's the difference?
April 16 2008 5:11 PM EDT
"I'm not tilting at windmills any more than Ranger here."
This is why I bother to read forums. I<3Sut! Don Quixote forever!
Anyway, I believe that in proportion to mpr and WA, evasion may be a little off down lower. Since a 600k mpr char can no longer equip the 70M weapon, evasion becomes a much bigger problem for that team based solely on tank damage. This becomes especially true against RoBF/evasion teams.
And I do not have a vested interest because I do not have a(n) (in)vested strat with a tank. =)
There is a weapon cap in place and good reduction in ranged damage. Evasion was nerfed in ranged, which ranger also mostly argued about because his +220 msb couldn't hit didly and saying if didn't had it mages would get 6 free rounds (mmm where is that msb gone off too now?).
But Ranger is only basing his story on TWO characters in all of cb. One character that has well over 75 - 85% of its mpr in evasion (that must be a massive amount) and on drac's character (probably 25% in evasion) with huge skill boosters.
I myself an evasion user also have 25% of my mpr invested in evasion, most tanks around me can't hit me, except one or two that have massive weapons (yes even ranged ones!). And I really don't expect any tank to hit me because my strat is all about denying tanks to hit me. Im horribly weak against any good CoC team or single fb mage (no big amf), its a trade of im trying to pull here.
So boohoo if you can't seem to hit an evasion focused team, that team is probably horribly weak against mages. Which in turn you can beat.
ow and I might wanna add I my "overpowered" evasion minion got creamed in melee and even got double hit by a melee tank.
You know why? he has 1.2mil dex more then me and a rather large both +154.
My evasion 148. He hits me solely on dex cth alone!
Maybe your 2 handed weapons has a secret yet unknown weakness against evasion or your EC isn't working properly, ill bet if you would train some dex you might get dex based cth hits.
And no your EC isn't big enough to kill of every last defensive dex.
April 16 2008 6:34 PM EDT
"I myself an evasion user also have 25% of my mpr invested in evasion, most tanks around me can't hit me, except one or two that have massive weapons"
And this is a good thing? As opposed to having to use EC or use DBs?
Only 25% of all your xp to be immune to all tank but 2 around your size.
And nothing is wrong with that? nothing?
And who is this mysterious tank that can hit your at 1.2M MPR twice in melee?
I am sure s/he is way more then your MPR.
some test done by Archetypalking against some big tanks up high, lega and failure.
Both got stalemated, now I have to agree that this isn't normal anymore. These both tanks could not land a blow on him.
Evasion in its focused form is way to powerful, especially if you combine it with a single minion and robf.
RoBF should have a penalty to skills rather then a boost
25% boosted by loads of Armour and a Tattoo specifically designed to bost that 25%....
It's not like it exists in a vacumn.
And anyway, 25% on a single minion it a full one quarter of the teams whole XP!
A full quarter.
Without taking into account HP, or *any* sort of offense.
Ranger, out of a teams *whole* XP spread how much should let them dodge just about every Tank thier size (That isn't themselves specilaised into countering them...)? While leaving them open to another strat, like say Mages?
50%? 75%? 100%?
April 16 2008 7:06 PM EDT
I know of no evasion minion that gets hit by a tank its size.
So I would say 100% by what people tell me.
Just ask Henk how many tanks his MPR or lower can hit his evasion minion.
Negate the Evasion on a RBF (or negate skills..) and you need to massively up either it's damage, or it's (stupid) DD reduciton...
And really, the whole problem with Evasion, is it anything but a Single RBF minion that's causing all the hoo-har?
You think a team needs to spend the entirety of thier XP just to dodge Tanks thier size?
April 16 2008 7:09 PM EDT
100% of tanks their MPR or lower not being able to hit him.
Sorry then for my last post, but I don't see how that relates to my post above it, and wasn't something I'd asked?
April 16 2008 7:13 PM EDT
Ah, I misread your question, my fault!
I really cannot know the answer, but decaying evasion effect would solve that problem. If you, using evasion, cannot kill your opponent by the time your evasion gives out, you deserve to lose.
Harsh, but IMO true.
nope true no tank will be able to hit my evasion minion and a small dex to make sure they won't, but as soon as their dex is bigger then my EC and my skill lvl, they hit me. (see superhotdog with the character pirma, he actually is able to kill me of in 4 rounds.)
And no tank will ever! Because my strat is designed against tanks, but gets owned by coc mages, fb mages and one or two mm mages that are much bigger then me
lol I hate to disagree but,
if you can't kill an evasion character in the time of 30 rounds (except those single robf minions), you shouldn't be able to win either. IMO
:P NP! ;)
Point is, if you feel 25% of a whole teams trianed XP isn't enough to let them Dodge all Tanks thier size and you don't think there's any amount, then what point does Evasion serve?
Due to the multiple hit nature of Physical damage, dodging just one attack or two, isn't enough.
Evasion is exactly like E/AXbows. You've got to tweak yourself to get that stat to zero, or to dodge all attacks that come your way, to make them worth it.
But if the wiffing is getting people down, I'd be more than happy to change Evasion totally to a non binary system, and make it reduce all phsycial damage by a percantage equal to it's effect. Get a (75) Evasion and you reduce all physical damage, from all Ranged and Melee attacks by 75%. ;)
ow yes GL combine that with that non existing shield of spikes (that reduces 40% of the physical damage for 6mil) that would be awesome!
And while we're at it, if you feel that strongly about a really tricked out Evasion stopping all Phsycal attacks, then surely you must feel as strongly about a 100% AMF redcuing all DD to zero.
That should be changed s well, shouldn't it?
Yes combine that with a mage shield that would be awesome!
ow wait that shield does exist.
April 16 2008 7:27 PM EDT
"QBRanger, 7:06 PM EDT [collapse]
I know of no evasion minion that gets hit by a tank its size."
Howabout my evasion minion with an evasion of (120). I get on by Nemod's char Alpha 17 who is nearly a 100k less than me in MPR. He's farming me relentlessly at the moment!
And with my last char with a +101 morg I seem to remember hitting Henk's evasion and Karn's char Test Char in melee quite often. Enough in the latter char - a single RBF/evasion minion - to stop him attacking me. At that point we were fairly equal in size.
Just because you know of no evasion minion doesn't mean that they don't exist. Do your research instead of spouting these things as if they are fact.
April 16 2008 7:30 PM EDT
"And while we're at it, if you feel that strongly about a really tricked out Evasion stopping all Phsycal attacks, then surely you must feel as strongly about a 100% AMF redcuing all DD to zero.a"
I just had a heart attack.
You do know that it takes an AMF level of 100x the DD level to get 100% protection.
I do not think that is out of line with a 3M evasion stopping a +150 MH and 3M dex. Both trained levels of course.
Get your analogies in order before YOU post.
But Johnny, you're not a Single RBF team.
It's this one type of set up that causes all the Evasion problems.
I wonder what would happen if someone set up a single AMF based team (That got both Joeand his Familiar for 100% Backlashes) and went to kill Sute at a quater (or whatever small amount) of his MPR...
Would that be equated the same level of brokenness the single RBF uber Evader is?
April 16 2008 7:32 PM EDT
Don't get me started on the RBF. When it was the root of all evil, one of the reasons it was so overpowered was that it allowed the teams at the top to operate using hardly any NW. Funny how now we have ENC it's not being used to do just that. I would have thought it was the perfect time to return to that wouldn't have you?
April 16 2008 7:34 PM EDT
Especially if evasion in melee is as bad as it seems. Can't evade the RBF....People could throw out their melee weapons and use their bows again with an RBF. Especially now evasion is that much weaker in ranged.
Heh. So the 100% is fine because it takes a lot. Cool.
But you're ok with a 50% reduction from AMF at equivalent levels?
So you'd be ok with 3 Mil Evasion only stopping half the attacks of a 3 Mil Dex + Equivalent sized +PTH wepaon would cause?
Then how do we make Evasion start 'backlashing' the attcker?
Or maybe we let Evasion actually reduce more than an Equivalent AMF would...
The main problem with Evasion (at least from what I can see) is the defensive DX. Having your PTH lowered by 150, 175, or even 200 is alright, as long as you have the DX and PTH to get through. If you have equal DX, that's 50 PTH right there, so now you only need 100, 125, or 150 PTH to hit that Evasion. A decent weapon, and maybe a ToA for those less wealthy, and you've got yourself at least a decent chance to hit.
Every single tank on my fightlist has lower much DX than my defensive DX (which is currently at a ridiculous ~4m). I just don't see how it's possible for a tank my size (1.2m MPR) to have 4m+ DX, as well as enough ST and HP to last. It's just impossible, except maybe with a MTL ToA, and even then you're still going to have trouble getting 4m DX.
The lowest MPR tank than can actually beat me is superhotdog's Pirma. His DX is high enough that he gets at least a little bit of CTH from that. He has a ToA, as well as decent PTH on his bow. I have no idea whether or not his ammo is upgraded, but that could make a difference as well. Even still, with all of that, it still takes him 6 rounds to hit me: the very end of ranged. If he whiffs 1 more time, he loses.
Can't wait until I'm up to like 2m MPR... 7m Evasion sounds very, very fun. :) Not that I'll actually get there, though. Stupid expensive NCB, and stupid school for interrupting my BA burning 5/7 days of the week. :(
I agree with Ranger, I too think that evasion is really overpowered. It should also decay in melee as well just like in range round. and also the damage by weapons in melee rounds should accordingly also reduced. Isn't that just fair :P
April 16 2008 7:37 PM EDT
"I wonder what would happen if someone set up a single AMF based team (That got both Joeand his Familiar for 100% Backlashes) and went to kill Sute at a quater (or whatever small amount) of his MPR..."
Of course due to game mechanics that I do not need to explain, that is impossible.
AMF does not completely negate ALL magic damage until the level is 100x the DD spell.
Good luck getting there vs Sut.
If someone could make a strategy using AMF that would beat Sut at 1/2 his MPR, do you not think it would have been seen already?
You are comparing 2 vastly different items-AMF and evasion.
But I had a nice huge laugh on this one! I thank you for that.
"But Johnny, you're not a Single RBF team.
It's this one type of set up that causes all the Evasion problems."
It's the RoBF that caused the strategy to turn up.
I'm sure that if/once the RoBF is nerfed (if Evasion is not nerfed) enough, people could start using IF, SF, HF, or JKF along with a massive Evasion, and completely obliterate every tank team known to man.
Sort of like how my 99.9% EC team was using a HF before the RoBF came along. The RoBF barely did anything, except letting me beat GA teams.
April 16 2008 7:47 PM EDT
When evasion costs as much CB2 as weapons do, I will be perfectly fine with getting "splashback" up to 40% from equal levels of evasion as I have pth or defensive dex vs native dex + EC effect.
Physical damage is different. Amf vs DD is xp vs xp.
Evasion is xp (which can be super dooper incredibly boosted) vs xp AND CB2.
Again, you compared apples and donuts.
DBs are CB2 versus XP and CB2! ZMOG!
"Evasion is xp (which can be super dooper incredibly boosted)"
Sigh, so is this he whole problem again? And by super boosted, you mean the AoF. As there are STR enchancing Gloves and Helm, and Skill Enchaning Gloves and Boots. Oh and Cloak. So the EC is part of the problem...
Evasion always was, pre Defensive Dex times, XP versus CB2.
As per my OP, ages ago Evasion was changed (both from the DB and theSkill) to be anti XP as well as anti CB2.
Your point is?
"When evasion costs as much CB2 as weapons do"
It can be, if you desire to purchase DBs...
"Again, you compared apples and donuts."
EC, AMF, Evasion, RBF DD, A/EXbow reduction and AC are all ways to 'bypass' whatever and render something zero.
It's *that* property I was discussing.
You're against Evasion (it seems at any level) being able to totally negate all phsycal attacks, right?
Well, a x400 EXBow and 477 AC already do this. 100% AMF and a large enough RBF do this. an EC twice the size of your targets STR does this.
What makes them all different from Evasion, such that they are all ok (I know, I know, you don't like the EXBow, but it's the mechanics here...) to negate something to zero?
The CB2 cost? The XP Cost?
What is an acceptabe level to be able to negate your opponents attack? 50% of all trained XP? 150 Million CB2? More?
It's not just Evasion that does this....
jon has stated he is against caps in general, but it has always seemed needed to me to have some part of skills, spells, damage, etc. always be protected. that percentage may be 10, 20, 30 or whatever, but i tend to think that for our investment, be it xp or nw, we should be guaranteed something.
April 16 2008 8:36 PM EDT
/me reads the posts and declares that the whole world is mad
April 16 2008 8:44 PM EDT
When evasion for its effect, costs the same xp as Ethereal Chains then it will be balanced.
Right now for a fraction of that xp needed in EC, one can get the same desired effect.
And EC is only boosted by a corn. The highest is +12. And, as we all love to state, EC is only 1/2 effective.
Evasion is boosted by an AOF, EC, EG, and EBs. Evasion is fully effective, no 1/2 effect there.
Worlds of difference.
April 16 2008 8:50 PM EDT
evasion is a skill EC is a enchant offense spell... why should you compare evasion against EC?
"The highest is +12."
April 16 2008 8:59 PM EDT
Soon you will have company with Cornzilla!
50% of the way there.
At least I can say that mine was forged up from base by one person the whole way :)
"Right now for a fraction of that xp needed in EC, one can get the same desired effect."
Wow... I didn't know Evasion reduced your targets STR (and therefore ENC) at all...
Learn something new Everyday.
No. EC isn't as good as Evasion for countering your oppnents DEX.
But EC was buffed by the introduction of ENC, as it's one of the main ways (if not the main way, as DM isn't as effective) to reduce ENC pre battle. Which might (if the ENC is reduced enough) impact far more stats than just STR and DEX...
If EC at the same XP provided all the beneifts and equal sized Evasion would, plus the extra STR reduction (in case hits did get thorugh) and the whole enemy team ENC reduction, why would anyone *ever* use Evasion again?
April 16 2008 10:35 PM EDT
Yes, it would take a lot of AMF to reduce me to zero.
Just like it would take a miracle for me to use EC with my DM. *wink*
April 16 2008 10:39 PM EDT
/me whispers to sut you heard of the ROS? :)
April 16 2008 11:59 PM EDT
Lost, that wasn't part of the idea when Ranger posted. I guess I'M having the heart attack.
I find it galling that Ranger dresses down GL like that (and yes, GL perhaps did make a mistake thinking AMF could reach 100%) when Ranger himself told me I should unlearn ONE of my DMs and try EC with it. I made light of it (at least that was my intent, I apologize if I seemed more barbed than that).
We all make mistakes. The difference is that some of us make light of those mistakes while others make a big deal of it (and then have the gall to say the thread is degenerating...)
You want to know why the thread degenerates, Ranger? Clue: You don't have to look very far.
And Ranger, you still haven't answered any of my questions, something that would actually ADD to the conversation (like AtomicBoy did, both on the thread and in CMs. Thanks AB!). THAT'S helpful.
April 17 2008 12:50 AM EDT
I have answered your damage reduction questions you asked.
Yet again since you refuse to believe I have:
The upgrade on the curve for the MgS should be raised.
The TOE cap should be lowered, especially its aura.
And CoC mages beat Oxcha. Perhaps in 10-20 rounds, but they do find a way to do enough damage, AND prevent him from beating them.
I was wrong about EC/DM. I was not referencing the ROS. Please laugh all you want, post all the time about me being wrong. I fall on my sword for that comment.
That said, I would suggest you never, ever change. You want to be stuck on the FB mage with tons of DM. Outstanding, well played, sticking to your guns!! Do not change to CoC as AB or even LA did, realizing that was the best DD spell near the top ranks. Let other characters pass you by.
Do not use a wall, even though it will help you greatly, since your morally opposed to it, please do not. In a game like CB, with limited minion/item choices, do not use the one thing that may help you greatly. Be different, stick out from the crowd. Be your own man!!!
Never ever buy DBs since I outbid you for DAWGs. Heaven forbid I buy the top DBs at the time. Both to keep them away from you, and to use them myself if needed; at 35% of NW. My god, I was so wrong to have bought those DBs you reference time and time again.
But I will use your character when using the evasion issue. It is still one of the top mages, specialized, but still one of the top.
April 17 2008 12:59 AM EDT
"Question: Can you beat King of Pain? If not, adapt so that you can. And don't lose anyone else on your fight list. Let me know the outcome."
I used to not beat Conundrum all the time. Then I changed: unlearned 1 EC and made it a large AMF. Guess what, now I beat him much easier. And did not lose anyone on my fightlist. No new items as well. But I did lose 40k MPR doing that.
Part of CB is changing adapting. Change month-the key word is change.
If you do not adapt to the changes, you will stagnate.
Most of the top players have unlearned/relearned numerous times.
Last time Mikel and I fought we stalemated. I have beaten him in the past, but do not fight him enough to know for 100% certainty now. So I will Conundrum as an example of my adapting as you requested.
April 17 2008 9:42 AM EDT
Ranger, I'm not sure what (or who's) post you were reading, but solutions to damage reduction are answers to a question I never asked. Not sure why you answered that when I didn't ask about it, especially since I know your views on the MgS and the ToE.
My questions were (cut and pasted from above):
-- What is the point of me becoming V[iolent ]F[emmes]?
-- How can I afford to furnish a substantial Wall? (after my tattoo experimentation I will have essentially no cash). You are talking about the poor tanks that cannot afford stuff without USD...that applies to me as well. [How is one supposed to have the cash to create a Wall right? I know it is cheaper than a massive weapon, but it is still far from cheap. I believe an MgS went for something like $65 recently? Maybe more, I didn't keep track. But that's 12.5 million CB. It will take me months to get that, and that's just for one piece of gear...]
-- How can I make a PL battery effective when all of my side minions are small? (why do you think I use a Familiar in the first place!) Some of the last minions Little Anthony purchased are BIGGER than my side minions! I'm not sure you realize just how small they are.
In subsequent, useful conversations (other people, like AtomicBoy, have made valid, constructive comments), I realized the question really boils down to a single one (sorry, still nothing to do with damage reduction, though):
-- What is the point of changing my entire strategy to gain 3-4 people on my fightlist while losing 2-3? Is that a more valid course of action than simply waiting and adding to my existing strategy?
A couple things to point out about that final question: Yes, it would take an ENTIRE TEAM MPR unlearn to change into a damage-reduction CoC mage team. Yes, it would mean me basically becoming like one of two existing characters (so that I can be fairly sure of the outcome on fightlists). And yes, it is valid to assume that other teams would continue to adapt that much more in light of another CoC mage so that the net gain on fight-lists would end up not being a reality after all.
That sums up the situation, and relates to the actual questions I asked. Luckily, several people already responded to my questions, and my tattoo experimenting yesterday was enlightening (though mostly just confirmed what I already knew, especially about poor Hal). So, while I wanted to reiterate the questions just to be clear on what I was asking, you don't need to respond. You really don't bring me anything valuable to the table in terms of insight, experience, or tone, anyway. Instead, what you brought to me and this thread was the degeneration that you had the audacity to "tsk, tsk" further up. That's your legacy.
April 17 2008 9:49 AM EDT
Rentals are a great thing, Just ask LD who uses it all the time.
And I am sure there are a lot of people that you can borrow equipment from. I have a few things that I would easily let you borrow long term.
But, I am pretty sick and tired of your beyond personal attacks on me.
So, please stay the way you are and let CB pass you by. I have lost over 200k MPR unlearning/relearning on Koy of the past 2 years. LA just lost close to 50k doing the same. Again, CB is an evolving game. One of the reasons it keeps me interested. However, personal attacks do exactly the opposite, which is likely your intention.
April 17 2008 9:56 AM EDT
To your Q:
"-- What is the point of changing my entire strategy to gain 3-4 people on my fightlist while losing 2-3? Is that a more valid course of action than simply waiting and adding to my existing strategy? "
None, if your certain those are the odds you will encounter. With all your experience in CB and your large MPR, you cannot do anything more on Hubbell to tweak it? But, alas, you are dead set against retraining. You have a massive DM that does nothing to 1/2 of the people you fight (or fight you), and the amount of DM is useless vs almost everyone it is so high.
Unfortunately there are only 4 DD spells. Not much of a choice but still one. We all know CoC is the spell to use at/near the top. MM is 2nd due to the MgS. Decay does have a nice place also, especially combined with FB or CoC. With the new ENC, how many mage seekers do you encounter?
I have no idea what the xp on each minion is, however a nice evasion minion, in the spirit of Draco may be a very helpful thing.
Have you used the RBF? Even thought of it? or are you morally opposed to it as well?
i agree with Ranger, adaptation is a must :P
I have dropped Fireball as well. The damage is too small.
" agree with Ranger, adaptation is a must :P"
Like dropping EC for Haste if you want to hit single RBF minions? :P
April 17 2008 2:46 PM EDT
"Like dropping EC for Haste if you want to hit single RBF minions? :P"
Again with this????
Haste can be dispelled and has a 68% efficiency. EC is 50% and cannot be dispelled.
So one uses Haste, and vs evasion minions that use DM you get nothing.
I tried both Haste and EC, EC wins hands down. I had over a 4M Haste and vs 1/2 my fightlist most if not all was dispelled.
That is like saying all people who train HP should just train AS as it is more effective. Not a very good arguement. *smile*
April 17 2008 3:03 PM EDT
And besides that, EC takes down ST as well. So for 18% less dex you gain the loss of your opponent's ST (in accordance with your EC level) and an un-dispell-able dex advantage. =)
yeah but with dex comes CTH and with EC it does not.
April 17 2008 3:31 PM EDT
For the 100% certainty of my spell going off 18% less Dex is well worth it.
Ask any tank and they would most likely agree.
EC also sucks enc, which is IMO absurdly good.
April 17 2008 3:44 PM EDT
That is a nice byproduct of EC.
I do not yet have an opinion on whether that is too powerful for the spell. I am leaning towards the too powerful side, however.
most evasion minions don't need a lot of nw so encumb really does not not help here.
"Again with this????"
Because it's strategy.
Take the most common uber Evader Build. The Signle RBF minion. they *usually* come with AMF and not DM. So Yes. Adapt. Use Haste. Use an AoF. Stay single and hit them.
That Haste isn't *generally* better than EC, due to the un counterable nature of EO's mean that it's not the worst choice for using another minion to pump a Tank chance to Hit.
Haste has a specific job, just like Evasion. they do one thing, and they do it well. EC has multiple jobs, and therefore, just like having both a Ranged and Melee wepaon equipped, it can't be as good in all its applications.
Specilaisation versus generalisation.
Oh and my post above was totally tongue in cheek. ;)
April 17 2008 4:12 PM EDT
I agree with Henk there.
Now if DBs were needed to help evasion, then ENC would matter.
But aside from Junction/familiar and TOA archers, I have a hard time seeing DB's being useful.
If Evasion doesn't provide anything more meaningful than just training Dex, what point is there for it int he game?
Just get peole to train Dex for defensive Dexterity.
It *has* to do *more* than just training dex to be worthwhile, as those minions using it for its defensive side get nothing from Dex inherant offensive side.
April 17 2008 4:16 PM EDT
Personally, the Strength lowering from EC is a bonus.
There is almost no way to completely nerf most tanks strength so they still do a bit of damage, a lot if I did not use my TOE.
However, using Haste in a game with DM is not a wise choice. Perhaps in the lower ranks of the game, but as one gets higher and higher, one needs spells that you can count on.
Even if EC gave only 50% just to dexterity, it would still be far superior to Haste.
As you can see, more and more of the top characters are getting away from ED spells due to DM. Perhaps a low protection but that is about it.
April 17 2008 4:16 PM EDT
Hehehe, hey GL, remember mages complaining about AMF and how much Tank Blender rocked them?
Remember the response?
"If you have a problem with AMF, use a ToE. If you cannot handle this, go tank."
If you have a problem with Evasion, go ToA. If you cannot handle this, go mage.
Too true OB. ;)
"However, using Haste in a game with DM is not a wise choice"
Ranger, do you feel that way about all EDs? Or just Haste?
April 17 2008 4:20 PM EDT
IMO and IMO only,
Having a decaying effect for evasion, specifically the PTH as novice suggests, would solve most of the problems I personally (and possibly only I) see.
Then a mage can use DBs with evasion rather then EBs to keep the PTH as high as possible.
But if they use EB's, they will have lower and lower minus to the PTH nerf, eventually letting most tanks eventually hit them.
It may be 10, 20 or 25 rounds, but it gives most normal, non-USD tanks, a chance vs a skill that can be boosted rather easily with lower NW items in its current state.
Why not just use DBs and train Dex then?
What makes Evasion worth spending the XP on, even for a Mage? when the effect (that decays) won't even stack linearly with the effect you get from your now necessary DBs.
April 17 2008 4:24 PM EDT
The proportion of AMF needed vs a DD spell is no where in proportion to evasion vs PTH/Dex.
Let the AoF super boost AMF and perhaps we can use that analogy. But right now, one only has the corn to boost AMF vs numerous items to boost DD/reduced AMF.
Evasion has AoF and elven gear to boost it.
I do feel that way for all ED spells. I personally do not like using a spell that may or may not work. I would sacrifice a bit of efficiency for certainty. As you can see on my characters I play (not farms), the only real ED I ever use is about a level 24 protection. And that I only use to help vs CoC as those characters almost always use AMF.
The ROS is a nice thought, but its DM resistance is far too low, and its boost is far too little compared to the TOE which is superior in almost every way in battle.
Ok, i cant stay out of this anymore. I want to clear some things up.
First off, EC is NOT 50% effective against dex. That needs to be realized. There is only 1 time where it is 50% effective, that is if your dex and EC combined equals their dex exactly. At any other time it is either less effective or more effective.
Let me give an example of this. If your opponent has 10 times your dex and you take away half of it, he now has 5 times your dex. But if you add half his dex instead, he now has less than 2 times your dex. Which is better? Obviously adding half his dex to yours. This is how EC works because of how dex is compared. It is compared as a ratio. This means that EC is very binary, either you have enough and it is more than 50% effective, or you don't have enough and it is less than 50% effective.
Another thing that you have to realize is the difference between 1h and 2h weapons. With the same dex, if you are using a 1h weapon you have a 66% cth against him with no pth or mpth involved. If you are using a 2h weapon and have the same dex your cth is only 33%. That is significantly lower. 2h weapons are not designed to hit all that much when at comparable lvls.
Let me use an example of all this. Ranger and Draco
Ranger has 1,624,240 dex and 3,849,532 effective EC (at least that is what i take from higher up in the thread) and a total pth of 238.
Draco has 5,077,450 effective evasion and 236 mpth.
Using this Draco's dex gets drained to 1,227,918 from the EC. (This is lower than Rangers dex and so his EC was more than 50% effective.)
Now to compare the ratio's. Ranger has a 1.3228 dex advantage. You then take this to the base cth of his weapon, giving a 44% cth from dex.
Now we add in pth as well as the 5% bonus. This gives a total of 51% cth. That isn't that bad considering its one of the best evasions in the game. Though this is based on the fact that the AoL minion is still alive.
Now if ranger were using a BoTh with the same stats as the Morg this would be his cth 95%. That is a big difference.
In conclusion i would have to state that both EC and 2h weapons are best used for people who have a good mpr advantage, and at comparable lvls are not the answer to fighting evasion.
Ranger, to be honest, I feel this thread has no focus any more. There's no set problem that is being addressed.
To me, this thread seems to at points be about;
1: Evasion making all physical attacks in a round miss sucks.
2: RBF single minions are broken, becuase you can't hit thier Evasion.
3: Non single Minion, non RBF Mages are broken becuase you can't hit thier Evasion (Evasion Tanks don't seem to have been mentioned...)
4: EC isn't good enough to let Tanks hit through Evasion (either on Mages, or Single minion RBF, or both).
5: Evasion is too cheap for what it does.
6: Evasion should be made worse than natural Dexterity.
7: The problem is actually the AoF super boosting Evasion.
8: DBs need to be required to stand a chance versus Tanks.
9: There shouldn't be an XP way to counter CB2 expenditure in game.
I think that about sums it up, but this thread is so fractured that I've probably missed stuff (And the DM versus ED stuff is off topic, so 've left that out).
Nem, the 50% effectiveness on EC is about it's XP expenditure. Only 50% of the XP you spend in it effects your oppoennts DEX in any way, as the other 50% is reducing STR.
April 17 2008 4:43 PM EDT
It is not as simple as 1H weapons get a 66% CTH with equal dex while 2H get 33%.
This was confirmed by Jon a while ago, especially when he opened the program to let us figure out an evasion bug.
With equal dex and my MH, I believe it was closer to 60% CTH. And the maximum dex CTH is 160%, not 150% as previously posted in the past.
Also, when people are typing about EC being 50% effective, they are stating for the xp. That 6M levels worth of EC only lowers their dexterity by 3M. Not 50% vs your opponent.
April 17 2008 4:55 PM EDT
GL, nice summary:
1: Evasion making all physical attacks in a round miss sucks.
2: RBF single minions are broken, because you can't hit thier Evasion.
3: Non single Minion, non RBF Mages are broken because you can't hit thier Evasion (Evasion Tanks don't seem to have been mentioned...)
4: EC isn't good enough to let Tanks hit through Evasion (either on Mages, or Single minion RBF, or both).
5: Evasion is too cheap for what it does.
6: Evasion should be made worse than natural Dexterity.
7: The problem is actually the AoF super boosting Evasion.
8: DBs need to be required to stand a chance versus Tanks.
9: There shouldn't be an XP way to counter CB2 expenditure in game.
My views on them:
1, It can do just that, and your correct, it sucks. But see the other points as to why it sucks.
2. Not just myself, others of equal or even higher MPR cannot. But this is well known.
3. Minions, even on a 4 minion team, can train enough evasion, getting boosted by items, that one cannot hit them with reasonable for MPR weapons. Evasion tanks are different as they put xp towards HP/Str/dex/skills, diluting their xp as opposed to dedicated evasion minions.
4. EC does help, without mine I would whiff on more than 2 characters. But at 50% xp effectiveness, it fails to keep up with all the nice evasion boosting items.
5. 100% it is too cheap. And boosted by items quite easily.
6. I never stated that. Evasion should be better at defense then native dexterity.
7. The AoF is a huge problem. I believe things would be far better balanced, even RBF/evasion, without the AoF and its 3% per + bonus.
8. It is my personal opinion that if you want invunlerable from tanks, you do have to need to spend CB2 to do so. I may be completely off as what the community wants and believes. If so, it is so.
9. There should be an xp way to counter NW. When I had 2 x EC it countered quite a lot of NW, just ask Freed and his 252M (at the time) ELB. However it took tons upon tons of xp to get there. Evasion needs a pitiance of the xp compared to EC to get the same result.
However, you keep saying "you cannot". I certainly can hit all but 2 evasions in the game. And those characters stalemate me since they cannot do enough damage. I am posting this as I see evasion, even in the lower ranks, being still far too powerful in melee.
It seems my views are not fully shared by the community. That is the great thing about CB. I hope we can then agree to disagree on this.
But, excellent summary. All but point 6. I do not think that is true.
April 17 2008 5:04 PM EDT
@LA: If I had the MPR to train nearly 12.5 million HP (native!) on my team, yeah, I'd be CoC/TSA/Wallish in a heartbeat. The sum of EVERYTHING on my three smaller minions is about 8 million, and that would leave nothing for enchantments, Evasion, PL, or Junction (depending on what route I went).
@Ranger: I do have a big Evasion minion: Joe. He was part of the reason we started discussing all this -- the fact that Lega and Failure can barely hit Joe in melee. I'm not sure why I would double-up evasion minions. In my opinion, evasion is kind of like AS -- if you do it right, you should only need one, and it is more effective to concentrate it than to try to have two, isn't it? (I'm asking -- am I missing something?)
Yes, I have tried the RoBF. I would rank it just below the ToE in terms of what I could become with a lot of retraining to go with it. In other words, I would rather become Conundrum or Violent Femmes before trying to make an RoBF work -- I don't think it would change my fightlist, and I did experiment with it back during the free tat re-inking time. (Right now I do not even have the cash to change it there and back, so I will have to wait to play more...)
I'm not sure I understand the turn of your tone, Ranger. Such an informative, useful post, marred by catty phraseology like "morally opposed"...when did I say I was "morally opposed" to anything? (My moral character is sort of important to me, so I don't like that phrase being used too seriously or too casually...) Can you show me the post? I post a fair amount, so maybe I missed something... If not, I would appreciate it if you didn't add import to my actions or opinions that isn't there.
My DM is no more useless than AMF, just perhaps more limiting on where I can go from it (like I tried to explain further up in the thread). You have a big AMF, right? Why? It only works on mages.
I will forever point to NWO and Violent Femmes as characters I am glad to provide the rock to their scissors. They are the reason I built this character. I'm glad you can beat them without having to make any other fight-list sacrifices, and if I had your tattoo, MPR, and net worth, I am quite certain I would be in the same boat (perhaps with hardly retraining a thing).
No, I am not absolutely certain about outcomes. But as with any issue, one compares the upside potential to the downside potential. That ratio, in this case and in my opinion, is not worth it. I've never said I deserved to or wanted to beat other people, I just said I didn't know what would realistically work if I DID want to mix things up, short of just copying another team (where the outcome is already pretty easy to visualize). Since you agree about toning down the ToE and MgS, we are on the same page there. Depending on the magnitude of such changes (if they ever came to pass), that alone might add 2-3 people to my fightlist.
April 17 2008 5:45 PM EDT
Clearly STR is overpowered as well.
It causes more damage, allows a small amount of damage reduction, increases ENC, and has items that can increase it to a bonus of 100%+ for a small cost.
Opps! Take those "you"'s int he summery above to be general you's, not specific Koy you's. ;)
Gonna repsond tot he points individually, I just find it easier that way. ;)
"1, It can do just that, and your correct, it sucks. But see the other points as to why it sucks."
Does this hold for everything that reduces something to zero? Or just Evasion?
"2. Not just myself, others of equal or even higher MPR cannot. But this is well known."
Isn't it part of CB gameplay to be able to specialise, to fight up? Sacred PEanut did it to me with a 4 EC team far smaller than my Tank. And that's fine, but using a super uber Evasion to fight up isn't?
"3. Minions, even on a 4 minion team, can train enough evasion, getting boosted by items, that one cannot hit them with reasonable for MPR weapons. Evasion tanks are different as they put xp towards HP/Str/dex/skills, diluting their xp as opposed to dedicated evasion minions."
Shouldn't reaspnable MPR weapons have a counter then?
"4. EC does help, without mine I would whiff on more than 2 characters. But at 50% xp effectiveness, it fails to keep up with all the nice evasion boosting items."
Two which I'd retort with EC isn't designed to keep up with Evasion, and shouldn't be expected too.
"5. 100% it is too cheap. And boosted by items quite easily."
Too cheap? But it grants Defensive Dex at exactly the same rate as normal Dex. So it's the effect that is too cheap?
"6. I never stated that. Evasion should be better at defense then native dexterity."
How then? Provide more defensive Dex per level than an equal Dex would? Or include (as it does now) a pth reduction? Or somethign else? Like a built in physical damage reduciton?
"7. The AoF is a huge problem. I believe things would be far better balanced, even RBF/evasion, without the AoF and its 3% per + bonus."
"8. It is my personal opinion that if you want invunlerable from tanks, you do have to need to spend CB2 to do so. I may be completely off as what the community wants and believes. If so, it is so."
EC? It is possible to get enouh EC (maybe not in the top ten, but that's a whole different game) to reduce Tanks STR to zero. Especially if they focus on Dex and Dex inmprving items over STr ones to try o hit Evasion.
And in this case, wouldn't the converse be true? The only way to counter mages should be XP then. No MGS, no AC+ reducing DD damage.
Or should Mages be hit by both XP reducitons to Damage and CB2 ones, unlike what you want for Tanks?
"9. There should be an xp way to counter NW. When I had 2 x EC it countered quite a lot of NW, just ask Freed and his 252M (at the time) ELB. However it took tons upon tons of xp to get there. Evasion needs a pitiance of the xp compared to EC to get the same result."
Answered above. That's what Evaison is designed to do. EC isn't designed counter PTH in as good a fashion as Evasion, as EC counters the NW of PTH *and* X.
April 17 2008 6:26 PM EDT
Basically my argument is this:
For the xp, evasion just gives too darn much. Minus to hit and defensive dexterity.
While each is not too much, together, along with the boost one gets from items (especially the AoF), makes it very hard, if not impossible for tanks to keep pace.
Unless they use USD for their weapons.
If you compared EC, which can give the same effect, the xp needed in evasion is but a pittance.
But, Evasion *has* to offer more than Defensive Dex equal to trained Dex of the same size. Or it has no place in the game.
And while EC can give the same effect, it isn't designed to, and isn't a fair comparison. EC isn't specilaised into dodging, but offers more general applications. EC shouldn't be equal in efect to Evasion if you are only considering dodging physical attacks.
For defensive properties only;
Evasion > Dexterity > EC
And it has to remain that way.
Also, we shouldn't forget that equal Evasion to equal Dex doesn't lead to all hits whiffing (I think it's safe to assume that the effect of Evasion is tied to a typical expected weapon PTH), but to the base cth. Very much like an equal AMF leads to 50% damage getting through.
But how about this.
Evaison isn't 'nerfed' but changed. To put more epmhasis back on DBs without ruining the Skill.
As I said above, leave Evasion granting Defensive Dexterity, but change the effect to be a percentage based Physical Damage reduction.
There. Evasion has it's place, and is unique. DBs are needed to stop Tanks hitting entirely (I'd also rmove - but I've been saying this for ages - the ability for excess -PTH reducing Dex based CTH, let Evasion/DEX take care of that), but if you're DBs aren't good enough and that weapon hits, Evasion is better than Dex, as it will reduce the damage per hit you take.
The Physical MGS, but in a converse twist, instead of a CB2 reuction, it's an XP one. The XP MGS. ;)
How does that sound? (effect curve left in the hands of Jon!)
April 17 2008 7:33 PM EDT
@ Point 6: I dont believe anyone said that evasion should be made worse than natural dexterity.
I did advocate for a separation of evasion and dexterity, where evasion does not grant AS MUCH, keywords being AS MUCH defensive dexterity. This was it has the PTH reduction, still reduces dex based CTH and is the balance to USD pumped DBs, being the xp alternative.
April 17 2008 7:36 PM EDT
typoing is not, unfortunately my strong-suit !
April 17 2008 7:41 PM EDT
I would have to see the curve on the damage reduction. If it gets over 50%, I would have to say no. However, I have been advocating needed DB's, combined with evasion for tanks to completely miss. Tanks have to use NW, neutered a bit due to the ENC factor. Let mages have to use some NW to counter it. Not as much mind you, but some.
But anything right now is better then the all or nothing type of product we have now.
People state EC double dips - str and dex. I agree.
But evasion also double dips - defensive dex and minus PTH. With the minus PTH effecting dex CTH.
Imagine if EC worked in a similar way. Once you get dexterity to 0, any excess lowers strength. I know that is an extreme example, but sometimes I feel that is what I am up against with evasion.
Make it like a MGS, with 50% at really the max. Gotta be fair right (I know you think the curve ont he MS should change as well!) ;)
"But evasion also double dips - defensive dex and minus PTH. With the minus PTH effecting dex CTH."
As do DBs. And this is something I'd remove now (Sorry Nov! I'm still agianst this! :P).
April 17 2008 7:54 PM EDT
I think that can certainly work.
And we do need to get rid of DB's with their double dipping.
But keep the defensive dex. That is a huge part of evasion. Just make the (xxx) a % damage reduction. Then use DBs to get the minus PTH.
Not a bad idea.
April 17 2008 7:56 PM EDT
And I do think the TOE needs tweaking.
Since all damage in missile rounds has been lowered by 40%, perhaps the TOE cap should be reduced the same.
For the first 5 rounds as magic does ramp up significantly the last round. Proven in a previous thread or even this one.
April 17 2008 7:58 PM EDT
Or, keep evasion as it is with all of its bonuses.
But tweak Bloodlust
Now BL does the same thing it does now, but gives a percentage based bonus chance to hit, like an accuracy skill.
April 17 2008 8:00 PM EDT
That would make BL a more desirable skill.
Right now it is not very useful, IMO of course.
I just thought I'd chime in here for a bit on one thing that I picked up in the last few posts. That is, the discussion of EC's "50%-ed-ness" and the "strength" of defensive dexterity versus offensive dexterity.
I had done a lot of work inspired by the even more massive work of Duke in deciphering the CTH scheme. Without going into more detail, I will say that there is already a significant difference between defensive and offensive dexterity. That is to say that it is not a straight ratio of attacker DX to defender DX. I forget exactly how the numbers worked (I can try to find my notes maybe), but basically.. it isn't linear as the current equations imply. When the ratio of attacker DX to defender DX is > 1 (so attacker has more), there is one set of equations, and when it's < 1 (defender has more), there is another (much the same as how AMF works if you study the AMF equations).
Yes, I forget which is which, and which I put in the wiki. The wiki, however, claims that whichever equation I put in there holds true for both > 1 and < 1. So, there's a 50/50 shot that the equation you're using is the right one :) :)
Now here's why this matters. A few posts up there is talk about EC and how it affects CTH by lowering DX. The amount of CTH that you gain per defending DX point removed is determined by the starting and ending DX ratios.
There is also talk about defensive DX being weighted differently. I can say that if you boost your defensive DX (that is, trained DX and evasive DX used while on the defensive) above your attacker's DX, you will have a very different scenario than if you drop below your attacker's DX. It is not linear.
"People state EC double dips - str and dex. I agree"
ST -> ENC -> AC/PTH
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