TOE in ranged. (in General)

QBRanger April 17 2008 7:59 PM EDT

With the 40% damage reduction for all forms of damage in the missile rounds, why is the TOE not lowered as well.

I think, in the interests of equality, the TOE should in the first 5 rounds of missile have a 40% reduction to its cap. The last missile rounds, as proven in another thread, is a normal damage one (using the HoC).

Leave the damage reduction at the 75%, but lower the amount of damage it can reduce.

That is only fair.

ScY April 17 2008 8:04 PM EDT

Here, I have to disagree:

The damage reduction was put into place to stop those huge ToA archers from dominating mid-almost top range chars.

However if the ToE was given a reverse-decay effect, like -40% bonus for the first round of ranged and it is brought back up for the rest of ranged until it returns to its damage reduction effect it would have had normally, or here in the melee rounds. Sorry if this is unclear, Im eating dinner =)

QBRanger April 17 2008 8:07 PM EDT

Well there was a straight 40% reduction to missile and magic damage in the missile rounds.

That is regardless of the penalties DD spells occur in missile rounds.

QBsutekh137 April 17 2008 8:10 PM EDT

I agree with Ranger. That's self-interest, but it is also logical in terms of the fact that Jonathan made the ranged changes consistent: more rounds, lower damage. But the ToE didn't come along for the ride.

QBRanger April 17 2008 8:11 PM EDT

I can speak only for Koy, but I notice I make it through ranged vs NWO and Sut much much easier now.

The TOE of course is the reason.

I hope this is one thing most people can agree on.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 17 2008 8:13 PM EDT

No damage reduction is reduced in Ranged. AC isn't nor is the silly DD reduction of the RBF.

While I'm all for reducing the amout of damage reduction, why single out the ToE? then, if w're beign equal and all damage reduction is getting reduced, doesn't that mean Ranged dmaage need to be reduced even further?

Wasn't the change to Ranged damage made taking damage reduciton like a ToE into account?

Ulord[NK] April 17 2008 8:13 PM EDT

Absolutely Ranger. ToE is incredibly overpowered right now. Best tattoo in its current state. Adjustment is definitely needed.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 17 2008 8:15 PM EDT

GL the difference is that the ToE reduction can be reduced based on damage size. Overall ranged damage potential stayed the same so AC with a % based reduction wasn't affected.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 17 2008 8:18 PM EDT

*ToE reduction can be reduced based on damage per blow.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 17 2008 8:20 PM EDT

"No damage reduction is reduced in Ranged. AC isn't nor is the silly DD reduction of the RBF. "
AC has no cap, and the RoBF was reduced.

QBRanger April 17 2008 8:22 PM EDT

The RBF was reduced overall.

No special concession was made for it given the significant (40%) reduction in missile round DD spells.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 8:29 PM EDT

Take off your Mage Shield then see how ranged is VS hub and NWO? I think only DD spells in ranged are getting hurt by the ToE, but it is more of the combination of the ToE and Mage Shield. A reduction of the cap would make physical damage in ranged back at square one. Then everyone will complain again when people are sporting 7mil evasion in order to deal with weapons :)

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 8:31 PM EDT

You will also see how much more viable MM will become if a Mage shield change is implemented.

QBRanger April 17 2008 8:33 PM EDT

I played a few days using my wall in back and also my tank in back without a MgS (MS instead).

Vs NWO my wall was still very much alive, my tank was also. I attribute that to the TOE mostly.

I can certainly be wrong in my assumption.

I cannot state as much with respect to the physical damage given that my EC does help a lot in that aspect.

But vs FB mages I kick them upside the head without even breaking a sweat now. Sut, I am sure, will agree that he is doing rather poor damage vs TOE characters, regardless if they use a MgS. The MgS is only adding insult to injury in his case.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 17 2008 8:35 PM EDT

It is simple, if it was balanced before the ranged damage reduction then it isn't now. Personally I thought the ability of archers to overwhelm the ToE was the major factor in keeping things balanced.

QBsutekh137 April 17 2008 8:53 PM EDT

Good point, GL. Reduce EVERYTHING in ranged.

Either that, or do away with it entirely... There's a dangerous request. *smile*

But yes, basically, Offense and Evasion were reduced in ranged. Everything else stayed the same.

HOWEVER, only the ToE is thresholdy. And the RoBF is baseliney. Both more stepwise than everything else. Just like the switch from ranged to melee. Stepwise. So, those need to be adjusted as well.

This is consistency, Jonathan. I've never seen you back down from that. *smile* In fact, I'd call it a bug. Something that can be fixed even during a non-Changemonth? *grin* This is the problem with the binary/threshold things -- when you change one thing, you have to change several more (as opposed to straight factors where changing one ripples through the rest accordingly, nothing missed).

The continuous lines never need changing.

lostling April 17 2008 8:57 PM EDT

sut never understood why you keep harping on binary and thereshold -.- binary is in all forms... seriously would you rather that you win 50% and lose 50% ? lol

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 9:03 PM EDT

I just feel a reduction will make physical ranged damage out of wack again. I suggest we change the mage shield first then see if the toe needs adjustment.

In reference to Ranger

You do have the biggest ToE and you also have a nice investment in amf. Spread damage will of course suck vs you.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 17 2008 9:09 PM EDT

Aboy, don't you think that without the ability for teams other than CoC to overwhelm it's reduction the ToE is the best tat by far?

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 9:29 PM EDT

archers can overwhelm the toe and so can sod users. The changes to evasion even allow them six rounds to do so and the ability at multiple hits.

lostling April 17 2008 9:30 PM EDT

the point is... if you dont overwhelm them in 1 hit you aint likely to do much damage

QBsutekh137 April 17 2008 10:03 PM EDT

lost, if the word "binary" is, um, "lost" on you, then focus on the other word I use every other: "stepwise". Functions work better when continuous.

Jonathan is (hopefully) discovering that:

Everything in ranged got jacked down:

EXCEPT, that base that the ToE stops.

EXCEPT the base that the RoBF stops.

IF the way the ToE calculates reduction were simply based on a fraction of the incoming hit, it would not need changing.

IF the way the RoBF calculates reduction were simply based on a fraction of the incoming hit, i would not need changing.

Neither are the case.

So, the cases need changing.

I'm not sure what could be more clear.

QBsutekh137 April 17 2008 10:05 PM EDT

AB, Ranger has the biggest of everything.

That is not a reason to seek balance otherwise (and Ranger is actually the first (in most cases) to state that. Kudos to him for that).

QBRanger April 17 2008 10:45 PM EDT


I have to side with Sut on this.

All damage in missile rounds went down, but the cap on the TOE remained.

Right now, the only thing that really can break through the TOE cap in a concentrated CoC spell. That is a bad thing, esp for those using MM or FB.

I know I have the largest tattoo and the 3rd or 4th largest AMF. However, while using the TOE, it is obvious to me, that missile damage does hardly anything to me now, and DD the same.

I rail against evasion since I believe it is overpowered. I believe the same for the TOE in the early rounds of the game.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 11:01 PM EDT

I acknowledge that ranged damage took a reduction and that the toe remained the same. However this made ranged physical damage a bit more easy to deal with with. Where as before the change ranged physical damage was incredibly high. Both of us know this was the case. Ultimately FB and MM were the spells which suffered the most from the change as the TOE because a lot better at dealing with damage since all ranged damage was reduced. More so effecting FB and MM. Why these spells were effected the most was because of the mage shield.

A toe reduction as you suggest would ramp up all ranged damage. Including physical which was just changed because damage was too high. Lets not forget what enc has done to the game also. In general everyone is training alot more strength. Do we really want physical damage in ranged to be overpowered again. I say we address the spells which were effected the most which were FB and MM and that would directly relate to a change in the Mage shield.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 11:02 PM EDT

ugh I can't type right now supposed to be became instead of because...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 17 2008 11:08 PM EDT

Overall ranged damage stayed the same - 2 extra rounds/40% less per blow. The huge reduction in weapon allowance reduced ranged damage potential considerably for those who care about PR however.

QBRanger April 17 2008 11:26 PM EDT

And caused a lot of tanks to choose either a missile or melee weapon.

I chose a melee weapon as did a few others. Making missile damage 0 in my case.

lostling April 17 2008 11:26 PM EDT

BG were fixed... + the 40% decrease + weapon allowance cut in half + enc
i think they have suffered enough

QBsutekh137 April 17 2008 11:27 PM EDT

I should have said in my previous post: "that is not a reason to NOT seek balance otherwise"... I think Ranger got it, in any case.


AB, think a step ahead. You're not wrong. If you gained more from the physical damage stop, then that is proof positive that physical was more onerous for you than DD.

But it's not a reason to say, "Don't decrease ToE effectiveness and/or aura."

It's a reason to say, "Sure, knock down the ToE..." AND THEN "Knock down physical ranged damage."

We all get caught up in the most immediate consequence (/me raises his hand and says, "I do.") that we lose track of the ROOT consequence. I know you know the score. I hope you know I am not talking down to you (you are one team I could emulate and probably gain on my fight list), but that has never stopped me before. Focus on the truth. If it is true that ToE needs toned down in ranged AND that physical ranged needs _further_ dehancement, then so be it. Let's just be sure to keep all carts behind all horses. From the beginning of the line, if we can. *smile*

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 17 2008 11:36 PM EDT

I am not protecting the the ToE just because I use it. I have never been afraid of a retrain nor a new direction for my team. I have been 2 or 3 different types of tanks before I became a mage so don't worry I am trying to be objective here also. I just stating my opinion because I don't want cb fights to become all about ranged. Since the recent changed more battles have been going into melee and I have liked that. I am saying that a reduction to the TOE cap in ranged will make FB and MM more viable, but will also make physical damage increase. I feel like we would be moving in the opposite direction from the recent changes to tone it down. I guess we could change the TOE and then reduce physical again. I am therefore suggesting we first change the mage shield as 40% straight reduction to dd coupled with TOE aura will of course do in MM and FB strategies. Heck the mage shield alone neutralizes Magic Missile as illustrated by my fights vs Oxcha where i lose what 400k hp the whole fight.

Obscurans April 18 2008 12:22 AM EDT

Sut: just nitpicking, but the ToE/RoBF things ARE continuous.

Add 1 damage: if you're under the cap, no extra resulting damage
if you're over the cap, 1 more resulting damage

Never once did adding a tiny amount of damage result in a massive boost to output.

It's more like a _/ type function. Not differentiable, yes, but continuous.

And how about put number-based reductions *before* %-based reductions? That'll just stop it from getting too much layering synergy.

AdminNightStrike April 18 2008 1:00 AM EDT

Wow.. Ranger, I must say that it's a complete surprise to see you asking for a nerf to the TOE. This really *was* a wild changemonth!

QBRanger April 18 2008 6:32 AM EDT

And let us not forget missile weapon users can use boosted ammo if they really need to do more damage.

QBJohnnywas April 18 2008 6:39 AM EDT

I think, and I've always thought, that the ToE was simply too strong full stop. Reduce it's power across ranged and melee both. One of it's most useful qualities was to help you last through ranged. With the changes to ranged that have happened and will most likely continue to happen it doesn't need to be as strong to let that happen. It never needed to be that strong in melee.

Nerf it.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 18 2008 7:01 AM EDT

The recent changed to range have made it even harder to survive. More rounds in ranged now and less evasion multipliers. Why do we suddenly want to nerf it across the whole board? I have said all i want to in this thread now. I will complain again when it gets nerfed and physical damage is out of wack.

QBJohnnywas April 18 2008 7:19 AM EDT

Sorry, somebody wanted clarification:

Ok, I've always thought the ToE was overpowered. So I'll not be unhappy with a reduction in that power. But now that ranged damage is lower, it's probably right that the ToE doesn't need to be as powerful.

But, if we assume that the ToE's power was to get it through ranged, then it doesn't need to stay as high in melee either does it?

After all, damage in melee was always lower than in ranged right?

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 18 2008 7:25 AM EDT

ranged damage is not lower. The amount of rounds increased. The amount of hits increased due to evasion nerf and Ammo can still be upgraded. With the enc change people have also move to more strength. The 40% reduction to damage merely changed the fact that i don't take quad hits and die in 1 shot. Now i die in 2 to 4 rounds instead whoop dee doo. I am still dieing in ranged.

QBJohnnywas April 18 2008 7:32 AM EDT

And to clarify even further: that makes my stance drop reduction in ranged AND melee; or don't drop it all.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 18 2008 8:02 AM EDT

Is it even possible to break through a reasonably-sized ToE cap? You need 66.7% of the tat level in damage just to break through the cap on the minion that it's on, and 53.3% for aura minions. Even if you don't break through the cap, 40-50% of the tat level in straight damage reduction is simply absurd. At 1.6M ST with an x4150 ELB and +13 BGs, I'm pulling out about 1.1M damage/shot vs. completely unprotected targets. A 2.06M ToE aura or 1.7M ToE (which are anything but absurd tat levels near my MPR) on the minion results in a complete 75% reduction. Add on AC and it becomes absolutely impossible to overwhelm the ToE for the single most concentrated form of damage in the game. The only other attack capable of dealing similar damage is concentrated CoC. For 3 or more minions, even MM is capable of doing more damage to just one minion, and we know just how popular MM is. I see people complaining about a 40% reduction to magic damage from one item on one minion, yet nobody minds a 75% reduction on every minion on the team to not just magic, but also physical damage from one tat?

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 18 2008 8:06 AM EDT

ever heard of the sod or upgraded ammo. Trust me when i say they can overwhelm the toe. Even an elb can overhwhelm the the toe with upgraded arrows.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 18 2008 8:09 AM EDT

How exactly is a weapon of base 5 supposed to outdamage a weapon of base 6 on one minion? Upgraded ammo is just as absurd. It costs 735,294 just to upgrade 1x on a bundle of 44,396 arrows. Why would anybody bother doing that when they could simply drop 94 extra x onto an ELB or 84 onto a MSB/SoD?

iBananco [Blue Army] April 18 2008 8:10 AM EDT

I forgot to mention--I'm using arrows which are effectively x4. Base arrows give me about 900K-1M damage.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 18 2008 8:11 AM EDT

I believe they do just that except they drop x1000 into the x.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 18 2008 8:12 AM EDT

How could I have forgotten? Everybody near my MPR's using x4000 weapons. Never mind the fact that x1000 costs 7.8M for an ELB.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] April 18 2008 8:32 AM EDT

you are using the x4000 weapon vs the toe users at your level. I wonder how they will feel when there reduction is reduced. Its funny the people backing this toe nerf are the ones using the big weapons. Not enough bang for your buck?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 18 2008 8:33 AM EDT

Where does your info on the cap size come from JS?

iBananco [Blue Army] April 18 2008 8:38 AM EDT

Oh fun, attacking me, rather than my argument. I could say the same about <i>you</i> defending the ToE solely because you use one yourself.

"Where does your info on the cap size come from JS?"
ToEs grant 40% of tat level in Endurance aura, 50% to the wearer. The minimum damage to break the cap is given by the Endurance level / .75, which is .4 * level / .75 for the aura, or .5 * level / .75 for the wearer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 18 2008 8:45 AM EDT

We shouldn't also forget the damage reduction from direct AC 9tiny as it is), or damage reduction from lowering STR by EC and an EXBow would also need to be lowered.

As these all aren't based on percentages.

I've long been confused about exactl *how* Endurane and the ToE reduced damage. From what I undersatnd now a 3M Tattoo provides 1 1.5M Endurace (to the wearer). This will reduce all incoming damage by 75% or by 1.5M. Whichever is less.

Damn that's a lot.

The ToE, at *worst* will reduce all incoming damamge by 1/2 it's level.

Far too sick.

I'm sure it worked differently when I looked at AMF backlash damage when it was first introduced...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 18 2008 9:04 AM EDT

"The ToE, at *worst* will reduce all incoming damamge by 1/2 it's level."

This is not the case as " Endurance is different from the others in that there is a total amount of damage that can be absorbed for a given lvl. Past 4/3 of that (IIRC) it starts to get "overwhelmed." " from Jon

So damage over 4/3 the cap lowers the % reduction.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 18 2008 9:05 AM EDT

This is the crux of the argument here.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 18 2008 9:12 AM EDT

I believe GL was referring to the fact that most people don't dish out 3M damage in one blow.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 18 2008 9:29 AM EDT

Just to further confuse I think the cap may be .75 of the endurance level :). Will test later.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 18 2008 9:32 AM EDT

Nah, I was refering to a 3M ToE always reducing 1.5M damage as a minimum.

I think that's the overwhelming Jon is talking about. Up until 1.5M, you will always have damage reduced by 75%. Over 1.5M the Endurance is overwhelmed, and you will only (lol!) get a 1.5M damage redution.

Unless I'm still getting Endurance reductions wrong. :(

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 18 2008 9:34 AM EDT

Reduction can be reduced to nil or virtually nil.

QBsutekh137 April 18 2008 10:37 AM EDT

Obs, I sucked at Real Analysis, but yes, you are absolutely correct, and "non-stepwise" was the characteristic I could not think of the word for (differentiable!).

AB, I am not asking for an FB/MM buff. I am asking it to be back to where it was, overall. As it stands now, FB and MM got nerfed against stepwise damage reduction models. Additionally, fights spilling into melee are a HUGE nerf to multi-minion Fireball users. Lega and Failure simply make it to melee now (I think Failure maybe always did, not so for Lega) and draw with me.

The TSA is another item that was not properly brought down. The TSA still regenerates the full 5%, and since I am doing less damage in ranged, opposing teams basically resurrect completely every round (they would actually end stronger if TSA regen allowed HP to go beyond original). Since ranged damage was decreased 40%, TSA should regenerate only 3% in ranged.

In summary, PL can be trained less, TSAs still regenerate full, and ToE/RoBF stepwise damage reduction models are more effective than before. I am not asking for anything more than for things to get back to where they were, unless you are honestly telling me ranged DD needed a nerf in the first place? If that's what you think, then we will have to agree to disagree. *smile*

If things are going to go that route, I would like to see ranged (or at least ranged DD) abolished altogether. Current state, ranged DD is non-viable. In my case, if it weren't for certain targets being available that depend a lot on DEs (I have three juicy targets in that category, used to have four when I could still take Lega), my score would not even be in the Top Ten. Should I be guaranteed a Top Ten spot? Of course not. But if EVERYONE needs to adapt away from ranged DD (it sounds like that is what some folks are stating at times), then why have it exist in the game at all?

SuperHD April 18 2008 2:55 PM EDT

ToE vs ToA

me vs Bleys
Post-battle stats
Oceanic Conveyor
EXP 22,380
HP 1,566,999
ST 1,644,279
DX 1,414,862
AC 63

Total Evasion
Damage Inflicted 5,019,339
Ammo remaining 1,166,310

Pirma Bleys
Oceanic Conveyor cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (866,758)
Brand cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (1485946)
Corwin found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Corwin's Protection fizzles under Dispel Magic

Ranged Combat:
Oceanic Conveyor hit Corwin with DMON BOW [778931]
Oceanic Conveyor struck deep into Corwin with DMON BOW [418154]
Oceanic Conveyor struck deep into Corwin with DMON BOW [490723]
Oceanic Conveyor cries "yo!"

R.I.P. Corwin

Oceanic Conveyor shot Random with DMON BOW [362459]
Oceanic Conveyor shot Random with DMON BOW [462381]
Oceanic Conveyor skewered Random with DMON BOW [401386]
Oceanic Conveyor cries "yo!"
Random's explosive shot hit Oceanic Conveyor [465688]
Random regenerated 54,311 HP
R.I.P. Random

Oceanic Conveyor struck deep into Brand with DMON BOW [663914]
Oceanic Conveyor skewered Brand with DMON BOW [784028]
Oceanic Conveyor struck deep into Brand with DMON BOW [657363]
Oceanic Conveyor cries "yo!"

R.I.P. Brand

EXP: 22,380
NW: 72,055,577
Encumbered at: 169,286,927
HP: 2,032,687
AC: 63
ST: 3,130,225 / 1,356,028
DX: 2,900,808 / 1,469,695
Archery: 0.97 / 0.74
Dispel Magic: 866,758 / 893,565
1,166,310 Into the WindY ForesTs [8x1] (+5)
DMON BOW [6x4019] (+121)
KETCHUP [0] (+12)
DMON boots [10] (+29)
HELLMANN'S [3] (+13)
RELISH [-5] (+9)
Oignons and Mayonnaise lvl 2,169,767

I kill Shade of the Chimera lvl 3,864,009 owned by Glory (Bleys) in 3 rounds...
i know this thread is about melee and ranged or evasion but whatever i dont get into melee except when i lose :) hmm what do i need to beat lvl 4.6 mil ToE ??
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