Dexterity - Evasion counter each other? (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 2:22 PM EDT

How would this work?

Remove the 'defensive' side from Dexterity totally. Make that the sole purview of Evasion.

Add extra PTH to Dexterity, witht he same (effect) as Evasions - PTH.

They then become a mirror image of each other, like DB with weapon PTH. (Remove the CTH reduction from extra PTH as well...).

That would give BL and Archery a defensive penalty by default (and then boost BL! Area hits isn't a bad idea!), as you wouldn't be able to train the defensive side of Dexterity/Evasion.

But you could still wear a pair of DBs ;)

(Maybe add Endurace as a skill, andtotally change it to lower the 'x' on any weapons you face... With a linear (effect))

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 2:29 PM EDT

my only problem with that would be that it would seem physical damage would still come out ahead of magical. they could counter a skill with a stat and still have their own skill slot free for damage boosting. furthermore, they still end the day with choices in skills that other teams just don't have.

it already is somewhat unfair that tanks can reduce magical damage by many means...none of which are skills. as for the rest of us the best reduction we can get does take up a skill slot, but that is okay as we really have nothing else to choose anyways.

Yukk May 7 2008 2:49 PM EDT

dude, you're saying that tanks have the advantage of wasting 25% of their XP on a skill in order to use their chosen weapon ?
Yeah, that's a pretty sweet deal !
That also means a tank can't train evasion, but they do have to train ST & DX, so now they're on a 3 way split.
DD users train DD.

I don't have a solution for the EV vs AMF debate. Some noisy DD users are complaining that AMF cuts into their strategy when it's capped at 40% and even then it takes 40M XP into AMF to counter 4M into DD if I remember correctly, whereas 4M into EV can counter 4M ST, 4M DX, 1M BL & 40M CB2 into a weapon.

Seriously, it's a different debate.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 2:52 PM EDT

"dude, you're saying that tanks have the advantage of wasting 25% of their XP on a skill in order to use their chosen weapon ?"

Not at all.

Tanks could still train only HP, STR, DEX. And still WTHBBQPWN people.

They would just get WTHBBQPWNED in return by other Tanks.

Unless they also trained Evasion...

QBRanger May 7 2008 3:07 PM EDT

That would make the SOD far far more valuable as you can train evasion while using it, while archery have to use archery.

And, unless BL gets a defensive dex boost also, it would be useless. Evasion would be the only skill to train if a tank.

I think a simpler solution would be to get rid of the AoF boosting powers with respect to evasion.

Let evasion minions and tanks compete on equal footing.

Either that or lower the PTH minus, or stop the triple dipping powers evasion has.

I prefer the AoF solution.

lostling May 7 2008 3:19 PM EDT

"That also means a tank can't train evasion, but they do have to train ST & DX, so now they're on a 3 way split."

i stand by my point... i have yet to see a tank choose elven stuff... EC? EB(sometimes)? EG? try getting the same amount of dex that the mages/tanks have evasion... and tell me that you STILL cant hit them -.-

and no i dont think USD weapons are the only way to hit... you can always go for LESSER damage and add to your + more -.-

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 3:20 PM EDT

It's a very good point. ;)

Then of course the AoF will rear it's ugly head. ;)

QBOddBird May 7 2008 3:30 PM EDT

"i stand by my point... i have yet to see a tank choose elven stuff... EC? EB(sometimes)? EG? try getting the same amount of dex that the mages/tanks have evasion... and tell me that you STILL cant hit them -.- "

The problem is that currently, you can't, so there's no point in trying. 50-60% boost in DX versus 100% boost in Evasion with a similar amount of NW in their Elven gears + AoF.

However, you're right though - perhaps if the AOF didn't affect Evasion, we'd start seeing tanks attempting to beat Evasion.

QBRanger May 7 2008 3:35 PM EDT

And do not forget some evasion minions are starting to get a decent amount of HP.

Right now it takes me 3-4 hits to kill Draco's evasion minion, 2-3 to kill Dude's minion.

When your hitting 20% of the time, that means a lot of stalemates, esp if the evasion minion has a PL/HP sink behind it and uses a TSA/MS itself.

Imagine the bonuses evasion minions must be getting if Draco can use a MS/TSA on that minion and still be virtually unhittable by almost all tanks.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 7 2008 4:28 PM EDT

Nerfing the AoF won't fix anything.

You can't take a small part of a problem "nerf/fix" it and hope it goes away. You need to adress the whole problem and all of it components, look it over for a solution. What you propose here won't solve anything.

And we need evasion in this game to combat those tanks, you can't expect anything else.

QBOddBird May 7 2008 4:29 PM EDT

Henk - that's just the thing, we're looking at the part that -IS- the problem.

Read the above posts please


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 4:32 PM EDT

i do tend to agree with henk and that is why i have proposed capping reductions and making some of our stats/skills/abilities etc. always protected.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 7 2008 4:32 PM EDT

And no ones mentioned the RBF yet... >;)

8DEOTWP May 7 2008 4:37 PM EDT

Make AoF effect on evasion +2/p instead of +3.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 4:43 PM EDT

i should say that i agree with henk if he means the following:

the current issue with evasion is just the most recent, and most annoying one to the vocal minority in cb2. freed was about to bring up another before encumbrance stopped him. if we fix the aof, then once i train more evasion, we will be back here going through it all again. the mages have complained of it before as well, just not as vociferously nor continually.

dd reduction is too much. sut calls it layers, i call it ridiculous. we need caps to protect something of our various investments. even if it is just 5 to 15 % of it. if that is not what henk meant then i apologize for putting words in your mouth.

QBOddBird May 7 2008 4:47 PM EDT

I also agree about the damage reduction layers, specifically the MgS/RoBF for mages and the ToE overall.

However, I feel that levelling the playing field DX-wise between Evasion and tank DX would make that a complete non-issue. I have been saying for quite some time that if you want to compete with Evasion, go ToA/full elven gears; however, that just can't compete with full elvens plus AoF, even given the same amount of stats.

I don't see why anyone should have a problem if the AoF no longer reduced Evasion and you then trained it back up to unhittable status, dudemus: because the opportunity would be available for a tank to try to make the DX necessary to compete with you.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 4:49 PM EDT

well i still think caps will be necessary at some point in the game. especially as mpr just keeps growing.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 7 2008 5:42 PM EDT

ToA restricts EC usage.

QBRanger May 7 2008 6:26 PM EDT


If you can get enough xp to get your evasion back up to "unhittable" status if the AoF does not add to evasion, then you spent enough xp to get that desired result.

But right now, it is far too easy to get there as things currently are.

I will reference Draco's character. Evasion + 200+AC + 1.5M hp. And it is not hittable except by Mikel and his 2nd highest tattoo and upgraded arrow and massive elb.

Just wait till Draco puts a bit more xp into his evasion. Nobody will hit him. And if they do, given the ranged changes, will they be able to kill him? Given his 1.5M hp + TOE + 200 or more AC?

Rent and I are just asking for tanks to be on equal footing with evasion minions. Yes, one can use a TOA, but then one is forced into a missile type attack. Thank heavens for choices.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 6:33 PM EDT

i am cool with that, as long as mages are put on an equal footing in regards to the mage shield then. give mages a counter, counter-part or make the mage shield cost curve more noticeable thus effecting encumbrance more. as i stated in another thread, if those things are done concurrently then i am cool. if we just change evasion without addressing the mgs issue, then i think the game is more balanced now.

QBRanger May 7 2008 6:38 PM EDT

The MgS issue is not involved with the evasion one.

They are 2 separate issues.

Fixing one does not mean fixing the other.

I have agreed the MgS upgrade is too lenient.

But whether or not it gets changed, the AoF has to not effect evasion.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 7 2008 6:39 PM EDT

That's cool, then let AMF nullify all DD damage with a 1.5x investment. Then give it a ranged bonus. Then make all AC affect magic. Then make DD users either train 2 different types of DD spells--one for ranged, one for melee, so that if they only train a ranged spell, they fire once every other round and lose 60% of their damage. Oh, and if you want the nice melee DD spell, you'll have to miss out on a round in melee. Then have mages do 0 damage unless you dump 50M NW into an item. While we're at it, let's just make tanks and mages completely identical to stop this senseless debate.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 6:44 PM EDT

ranger, i would bet mages feel as strongly about the mgs issue as you do about the aof issue. why exactly is one a "has to" change?

js, that is exactly my point. if we make every strategy out there have a counter to every other strategy than we in effect lose all of our choices and have to choose them all. as i kept repeating in the other thread....rock~paper~scissors folks.

[MG]Mecca-Devilbot [Clan of One] May 7 2008 6:48 PM EDT

People aren't trying to nerf Evasion into the ground. Just make it so that *ONE* item doesn't boost evasion into such a high level that it's impossible to get close to it.

One option I think would be interesting would be if negative dex reduced evasion, as i currently think it does not. Evasion minions would be forced to get at least some dex, EC at high levels would be able to counter evasion, to some extent, and the Assassins Crossbow would be a counter to the DB's.

[MG]Mecca-Devilbot [Clan of One] May 7 2008 6:54 PM EDT

I see the issue with MgS, but it's not relevant to this discussion.

It probably should have a decay rate of 1% per 2 rounds, to a maximum of 1/2 the original value.. but hey, that's for another thread.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 7 2008 8:00 PM EDT

back to 2% for the AoF sure but that WON'T solve the problem. It will still be just as powerful, make the AoF stop providing evasion in total? Slap on elven gear, upgrade that a tad and your back at the same lvl.
No if you really want balance in this game, reset everyone. Everyone starts from 0 again with nub and lets have fun. But for now because of influence outside CB (eg USD) and the fact that the game is changing, a few years ago no one needed evasion anyway it was back then a weak skill without the modifiers, you never get balance in this game.

What if evasion is lowered (again) and the AoF is removed from the game (happened before, see CB1 IA).
The next skill to whine about would be PL, but not just PL the PL/TSA comby is to strong after that you have tank damage again.

lostling May 7 2008 8:13 PM EDT

make AOF add to dex and reintroduce it -.- solves plenty of problems and bring a nice amulet forward so that people would use it

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 7 2008 8:16 PM EDT

AoF adds dex? ow evasion minions will love that. Especially if it raises your defensive dex.

lostling May 7 2008 8:21 PM EDT

it already adds to defensive dex from evasion *shrug*

QBRanger May 7 2008 8:52 PM EDT


There is no way evasion minions can replace the 3% per + of the AoF with elven gear. No way possible.

It would make the dexterity battle bearable for tanks.

And let us please keep this on evasion, not the MgS.

if you want to rail on the MgS, please use another thread.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 7 2008 9:04 PM EDT

i thought i was participating in a balance discussion. pardon me for taking your thread off topic gl. the main point i had is really just that each of our pet peeves seem very important to us, not everyone shares in our fervor.

i will leave it up to jon: as i have stated many times i trust his vision and enjoy his game.

QBRanger May 7 2008 9:18 PM EDT

dude, I understand your concerns about the mgs. I agree with most of them. But when posts like this go in many directions, we, as a community, get nowhere. I did not mean to be snide with my prior post. I am sorry if it seemed that way.
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