dexterity and evasion (in General)

i have a question and possibly two depending on the answer to the first:

does 12 points of xp put into dex always increase your dexterity number by one?

yes

ok then, now for the second question:

evasion cost an ever increasing amount of xp for 1 point of effect. why then will dexterity not overwhelm evasion at some point?

Its not the effect that is overwhelming dex. Its the defensive dex, which is 1 point per 12 exp as well.

i thought it might be that, but i can never really understand that concept for some strange reason. so defensive dex supplied by evasion is a steady growth of 1 point of defensive dex per 12 xp spent in evasion?

Yes

Correct, and further multiplied - along with the effect - during ranged rounds.

Therefore each 12 xp in Evasion buys you between 1 and 1.5 points of Dexterity for defensive purposes only, while each 12 xp in normal DX buys you 1 point only, but capable of being used for offense and defense.

so if i a have 5 m in boosted evasion and my evasion effect is 203. with a plus 100 weapon, what dex would it take to hit me consistently?

if we could go through the process, maybe i could finally grasp it!

I don't know the margin of DX gap there has to be to have a "DX advantage", but there'd have to be enough far more DX than 5 mil.

Maybe at 6.5M, there would be the DX CTH of 166, combining with PTH of 100 for 266 CTH. At 6.5M DX, the tank would hit you once 53% of the time.

But that's in melee, in ranged, at the 1.5 multiplier your Def. DX would be 7.5M so the tank would then presumably need something like 9M or so to hit you less than 50% of the time (as the effect increases also.)

so if i a have 5 m in boosted evasion and my evasion effect is 203. with a plus 100 weapon, what dex would it take to hit me consistently?

If we could go through the process, maybe i could finally grasp it!

With 10 mil dex, they would get 150 cth (not exactly sure on this number) then 100 pth, so 250 total, so with 10 mil dex, you'd hit half the time. No way to boost it further with dex. You'd need a +150 weapon, and 10 mil dex.

I think he's right in saying +166 instead of +150, but I'm pretty sure to get full dex advantage you need double the dexterity.

So, based on the +166 cth from double the dexterity, and +136 pth, you'd get 100% chance to hit.

It depends on the weapon, but you would have to get a very big dex advantage in order to hit. With a 1 handed weapon you would need around 9 mil dex to even start hitting. And at full dex advantage which would be at about 12 mil dex you would have a 68% cth. A 2 handed weapon is much worse, and would never get more than a 35% cth.

well the vastly different numbers given aren't really helping me to understand. is it 150 or 166 cth for the 6.5 m dex or the 10 m dex? or do we not really know for sure?

would it be easier to use equal evasion to dex as an example and then see what pth is needed on a weapon?

i guess i should also say just melee rounds with 1h for ease of calculations.

The thing is that with 10M DX (or 1 gazillion DX for that mater), a +100 weapon will hit you at least once per round in every round (unless you wear a pair of DB).

That is not the case with Evasion.

And good luck getting 10 mil dex with DBs on

Dudemus: it is 166% base CTH for max DX advantage.

There was a changelog in which Jonathan increases this base CTH slightly for 1H weapons and decreases it slightly for 2H weapons.

But that's how it works.

And I have no clue how much DX is required for the max DX advantage, though I would venture to say it isn't double.

Base max cth is 150%. It is 166% for 1h weapons and 133% for 2h weapons. Though if they get to 3 hits it becomes 150% for both again on the 3rd hit.

the amounts needed to get max dex advantage is 2.5 times the defensive dex for 1h weapons, and 4 times for 2h weapons.

Are you certain of this, Nemerizt?

I'm almost positive it was 166% *pre* 1h/2h change. Which would mean that 1H weapons got nothing and 2H weapons got a nerf, if your 133 and 166 numbers are correct...

ok, maybe we can try this another way as i am more confused now.

here are my evasion stats, not counting the boost by the robf:

4,969,042 3,680,772 203 180

my post battle stats show that my evasion effect from the robf takes my total evasion effect to 209.

could someone show all of the calculations required to determine if koy's the grid hits me with boomstick?

Boomstick [84x11000] (+225)

the grid has a dex of DX: 1,833,676 with no haste involved.

i am not sure if this is all of the needed info, but will try to find out anything else necessary.

i truly appreciate any effort and patience on your part and would love to finally understand just what these calculation entail, so please show each calculation. if you assume i am an idiot that may help matters! ;)

The effect of Ranger's EC is necessary as well

i was afraid of that, hehe.

The max chance to hit with a missile or melee weapon with dex is 160%. Jon showed us this when there was an evasion bug and he opened the calculation code.

!H vs 2H ramp up differently in their to hit chances based on dexterity.

So with a 5M (220) evasion one would need a 120% chance to hit with a +100 weapon. So we are typing about close to 8M dex to even have a chance to get 1 hit. And that is 1%. Even with a max dex chance, one can only get a 160-120% chance to hit=40%.

If it was a +200 weapon then things change a bit.

It is about a 50% chance dex CTH with equal dex and 2H weapon, I thing about 75% with 1H.

So 5M (220) evasion vs a +220 MH would give:

220+50 -220=50% chance to hit with 5M dexterity.
with a 1H 75% chance to hit with 5M dexterity.

However, I now see evasion levels of close to 8M now.

what about looking at it a different way then. if the highest possible evasion effect were say 250 or so (should be under that, but a safe estimate), then that would cancel out a +250 weapon. the hits would then be based solely on dex as comparted to defensive dex? with that scenario, if accurate, then tanks could still keep pumping dex and the plus on weapons to get more of an advantage? i guess my question is still the same, at some point (just not sure where, but when the evasion effect just costs too much to increase further in any meaningful way) dex can still be increased as can plus on weapons given enc room. unless you keep putting xp into evasion just for defensive dex?

5m only gives 203 or at the most 204. i would hazard a guess that the 8 m evasion would give less than 250, i would like to know though so i will see if i can find that out.

The problem then is that tanks cannot keep up the dex battle.

Esp with the AOF super boosting evasion.

Then you get the pure evasion minion vs the tank who needs to spend xp on HP/STR/DEX and possibly a skill. It is no contest.

To prove the max dex chance to hit is 160:

From when Jon opened the code:

Missile;
defensive dx is -4214953
dx-based chance to hit is 159.999999995
pth after evasion is -78.2
total chance to hit is 82
Cloudscape shot Joe with Spiral [592435]
defensive dx is -4214953
dx-based chance to hit is 159.999999995
pth after evasion is -78.2
total chance to hit is 82


Melee with my MH:

defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 159.999999947
pth after evasion is 76.4
total chance to hit is 236
Cloudscape shot Hubbell Man's familiar with Spiral [564881]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 159.999999947
pth after evasion is 76.4
total chance to hit is 236
Cloudscape struck deep into Hubbell Man's familiar with Spiral [535296]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 159.999999947
pth after evasion is 76.4
total chance to hit is 236
Cloudscape struck deep into Hubbell Man's familiar with Spiral [504813]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 159.999999947
pth after evasion is 76.4
total chance to hit is 236
Cloudscape cries "Schwing!"
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 160.0
pth after evasion is 227
total chance to hit is 387
The Grid pulverized Hubbell Man with Boomstick [1500676]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [35615]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 160.0
pth after evasion is 227
total chance to hit is 387
The Grid crushed Hubbell Man with Boomstick [1841339]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 160.0
pth after evasion is 227
total chance to hit is 387
The Grid pulverized Hubbell Man with Boomstick [1504224]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 160.0
pth after evasion is 227
total chance to hit is 387
The Grid pulverized Hubbell Man with Boomstick [1120186]
defensive dx is -3318866
dx-based chance to hit is 160.0
pth after evasion is 227
total chance to hit is 387
The Grid cries "This is my BOOMSTICK!"

I can email anyone that and other battles to see. CM me you addy.

that is my whole point actually, an amazing aof boosting evasion at the higher levels will only add a few evasion effect levels. if you meant aof super boosting defensive dex, then i was trying to see how that works without much luck.

the curve for evasion will finally mean that the highest aof in game really only adds 1 or 2 points in evasion...i am not sure where effectively that will occur, but the curve guarantees it at some point.

"Then you get the pure evasion minion vs the tank who needs to spend xp on HP/STR/DEX and possibly a skill. It is no contest."

And it shouldn't be.

Lke the poor tank how faces a pure EC minion and has thier STR reduced to zero and causes no damage.

There's no difference.

Dude,

It is not just the (xxx) boost of evasion that gives it so much benefit.

As you see, the defensive dexterity does.

But remember that to get a weapon to +250 virtually destroys any remaining ENC a tank could have.

I have the highest strength + HP tank right now. My ENC is 330M. My MH right now is 201M NW. Each + from 225 to 250 is at least 1.5M. So that is at least 40M to get my MH to 250. Virtually using up all my ENC, not leaving much room for armor.

Plus all the USD I would have to pump to get it up that high. And are we not trying to get away from USD?

Chicken and Egg. You do spend that USD, then what does everyone else do but bow to your Morg?

Your ENC is low because you've got a 4 minion team. Use other members on your Team to boost it.

If that's the route you want to take to combat Evasion...

Certainly there is a difference GL.

EC only gives 1/2 return on investment of xp.. Perhaps 62% if you use one of the highest corns.

Evasion, with items can give over 100% bonus to its level/effects.

62% vs 208%, hmmm. Huge difference.

Yes, yes, I know EC works on strength and dexterity. Evasion is only dexterity.

When I used EC to great effect, I had to use over 40% of my xp in it. And that was with the highest MPR at the time. Evasion can get unhittable with 20% of xp in it on a character with less MPR.

However, I doubt I can convince you to agree with my posts. That is fine. I just wanted to progress some discussion about this evil skill :)

so weapon plus and evasion are going to be equally difficult to get past 200 say to 250. that is a wash then.

my question is then if those two cancel each other out, training dex will only give a better chance to hit, unless the evasion minions keep pumping evasion with no effective level increase solely for the purpose of defensive dex?

Sorry Ranger, but what does you post above relate to?

I don't get it's realtion to what I posted? :/

"However, I doubt I can convince you to agree with my posts. That is fine. I just wanted to progress some discussion about this evil skill :)"

:P

Probably not, as the last ones just seem (to me!) to be you wanting a set up that can kill everyone, all the time, with no counters.

Which is ideally the same goal I'd have, but which I don't think is good for the game. ;)

"my question is then if those two cancel each other out, training dex will only give a better chance to hit, unless the evasion minions keep pumping evasion with no effective level increase solely for the purpose of defensive dex?"

Try getting a DX equal to the defensive DX of a decent Evasion minion.

Also, try getting a weapon big enough to negate the -PTH of Evasion, while still being able to equip other important gear, and be even somewhat effective.

I wish you good luck in those endeavors.

a year ago i would have agreed with you. as the game goes on though these things will only get easier, remember the highest mpr is growing and thus all the n*b's afterwards will also be that much higher.

and how will things get easier for tanks? and how will they for existing characters?

evasion effect is close to capping or should be. against weapon pth they will pretty much cancel each other on high weapons.

dex can keep growing with xp growth though. i doubt many will keep pumping evasion once the effect stops climbing.

actually, plenty will pump evasion for the defensive dex.