The power of ToE! (in General)
May 22 2008 12:32 PM EDT
With all the Evasion and RoBF buzz, I just wanted to sneak in the little reminder of how strong the ToE is too. ;)
Against a ToE and 189 AC:
Hal hit Gera 
Against an unprotected 22 AC minion:
Hal struck deep into Reya Dawnbringer 
May 22 2008 12:34 PM EDT
But OB, are we forgetting something, something HUGE.
Lega has a massive EC. So large your Hal's strength is a fraction of what it normally is.
Why not test vs someone without a Huge EC?
May 22 2008 12:34 PM EDT
And don't forget that once that damage is reduced, it can be further (and more easily) nullified by TSA on the backside, while EH and MgS make the damage even smaller up front!
Layers layers layers! (but yes, I had forgotten how powerful the ToE alone is!)
And don't forget the ultimate stupidity of the ToE -- it's underwhelm/overwhelm nature. Just say "no!" to step-wise game mechanics!
May 22 2008 12:35 PM EDT
Oh, good point, Ranger. Yeah, OB, come on! *smile*
May 22 2008 12:35 PM EDT
But OBs example is not a valid one due to Lega massive EC.
May 22 2008 12:43 PM EDT
Lekunhawk cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3417956)
Combined from his 2 minions.
so the toe in conjunction with ec is then similar to the robf used with evasion?
May 22 2008 12:56 PM EDT
Hal hit Juggernaut 
Pwnyboy absorbs damage 
My bad, I forgot he even had an EC. ;'P
Conundrum, however, does not. Much less AC, too.
May 22 2008 12:58 PM EDT
Best hit and worst hit, to be 100% fair:
Hal shot Juggernaut 
Hal hit Juggernaut 
May 22 2008 1:00 PM EDT
*grins* Sorry for the triple post, but I just had to let you know.
I can't do anymore test fighting, or I'll fall out of 6/20. *snorts a little*
May 22 2008 1:04 PM EDT
253 AC by itself give 53% damage reduction.
And let us not forget Conundrum has a (25) protection, further reducing the damage by 25% off the top.
So the 1M you do to a unprotected minion goes to:
1M x .47 = 470,000 after AC alone
470,000 x .75 = 352,000.
Based upon an average hit of 100k, the TOE is reducing the damage by only:
100,000/352,000=28% or 72% further reduction.
Yes, a lot, however not the massive 1M ---> 20k that was first presented.
Even 1M ---> 100k is a lot, but do consider there are other factors besides just the TOE. A nice level protection (25) and a nice AC (252).
May 22 2008 1:06 PM EDT
whoops, he has an AoI on that front minion. I'll go looking a little more and find yet a better example! xD
May 22 2008 1:09 PM EDT
All you ToE users keep using the blasted EC combo! But I found one.
Hal hit Tefasy 
Hal shot Tefasy 
Hal struck deep into Tefasy 
Hal skewered Tefasy 
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
That one is against Slot Machine. At best, I reach into the lower 500k mark - there's an average attack though.
so by itself, ToE only reduces by 50-80%? ;'P
ok then, so the toe used in conjunction with ec compounded by ac and protection is then similar to the robf used in conjunction with evasion compounded by aof and elven gear?
May 22 2008 1:12 PM EDT
The TOE reduces damage by about 70% by itself up to its cap.
Which is more powerful? Having a TOE reduce damage or having a large IF giving damage? Or a large TOA give all that str/dex/pth?
That is the debate.
I have requested the TOE to be nerfed about 25-30% in missile to compensate for the reduction in damage during those rounds. Others have agreed.
at least you are getting a quad hit vs the misses tanks see vs robf teams.
May 22 2008 1:21 PM EDT
Very true, Aboy :) now if only that kept up for longer than 6 rounds, after which my CTH is cut by 80% and my DX by 60%!
May 22 2008 1:25 PM EDT
Combine the JKF and HF.
Or just get rid of the HF and make the JKF have a missile attack in ranged, then UC in melee.
"I have requested the TOE to be nerfed about 25-30% in missile to compensate for the reduction in damage during those rounds. Others have agreed."
i find it very telling that all references to robf and evasion, use terms like broken, fix, penalties, xp dilution...etc. when we are referring to the toe being overpowered though we are much more conservative in our vocabulary in reference to it as well as with our proposed fixes for it...a slight reduction in ranged rounds only.
i was posting to show the similarities with the two items, and the disparity with how they are viewed by the community. once again i am just darned glad that the inmates aren't running the asylum. thanks jon!
May 22 2008 1:43 PM EDT
There are certain similarities between RBF/evasion and TOE.
However, there are huge differences.
First is that the RBF does damage not vulnerable to AMF/GA. Unless you use a TOE to counter that damage, in almost all cases, if you miss like a tank usually does against super dooper evasion, your toast.
Second is that evasion can make the largest of tanks miss. And given the AoF superdooperly incredibly astronomically boosts evasion vs tanks who cannot use it to boost their dexterity, things are on an uneven playing field.
Third, the RBF can 100% nullify damage. Even with the TOE, some damage do get through.
Fourth, with a TOE, one still has to have an offense attack. Therefore your xp is diluted compared to the RBF. With the RBF one has to just train AMF/evasion/HP. With a TOE one has to train a lot more. If your a mage, you get hit by AMF/GA. If your a tank, you get hit by EC/GA. The RBF has none of those problems. The biggest problems a RBF user has is how much of their xp to put into evasion or AMF. The attack is basically a free quite powerful one.
Fifth, The ability of EC to completely neutralize tanks, or AMF to completely neutralize mages is close to 0. Even with the highest EC in the game, I still get hit by many tanks who have over my EC's effect in stregth. My EC barely scratches the high evasions out there. I still take damage and in some battles take almost enough to kill 3 of my 4 minions. With the RBF, who cares about damage if your never hit due to superhuman evasions.
While the EC/TOE axis of damage reduction is quite nice, it is no where as powerful/abusive as the evasion/RBF set of damage reduction.
"While the EC/TOE axis of damage reduction is quite nice, it is no where as powerful/abusive as the evasion/RBF set of damage reduction."
given enough time and xp growth it will be though and that is my whole point. the robf is an issue now because of the xp concentration it allows, however it is only an indication of things to come.
after our aof discussion a few weeks back, and due to the fact that the rarity of the aof has driven the prices to silly levels, i have been using an amulet of ac for a couple of weeks now. my evasion is no longer boosted massively by the aof but it hasn't really changed a thing.
as i stated in an earlier thread, at the expensive ends of the curve, even the aof is going to affect the final numbers minimally. my total evasion effect is less than 10 ponts different without the aof.
At that point, the main increase in effect you're getting is coming from the extra defensive dexterity.
And let's not forget the AoF boost Evasion *much* more than the RBF...
May 22 2008 2:11 PM EDT
I agree with JS.
One cannot go wrong with more defensive dexterity.
Take Oxcha for example.
He has a 246 or so evasion effect with about 8M defensive dexterity.
My PTH is 11 for the AOL and 240 for my MH. Both are named so:
12 + 249=261.
So I have 15 PTH a round for 1 hit.
Given his boosted evasion giving 8M defensive dexterity, I would need 8M offensive dexterity to have a 50% chance via dex to hit.
No freaking way I can get that high dexterity and still have any strength to equip my MH and armors. And have any HP left to live to melee since I cannot use a bow.
So it is quite nice for evasion minions to continue to pump up evasion if for the defensive dex.
Until, of course, weapons get to +300 or higher. Which may be soon, but I suspect not. At least not for another 12-18 months. Unless your Freda of course. :)
"No freaking way I can get that high dexterity and still have any strength to equip my MH and armors. And have any HP left to live to melee since I cannot use a bow. "
The major Malus of a multi minion team. I've got 60M Ench sittign here I ca't fill. ;) If I was your level, I dread to think what size of Weapon I would be able to equip! :P
Maybe the design is to get minions on a mult minion team to help boost other minins. Like GS to boost the ENC of a Tank. That sort of thing. (Even if DM is then the counter to that strat)
"Maybe the design is to get minions on a mult minion team to help boost other minins. Like GS to boost the ENC of a Tank."
planned on that :P
May 22 2008 8:04 PM EDT
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