Jon - Game's broken. (in General)
May 25 2008 5:04 PM EDT
IIRC, the idea behind CB2 was mostly the NUB (later NCB as well) so that players could have a chance to be competitive.
Currently, through no fault of his own, LA is in a position where nobody can be competitive with him.
Can we get this newly realized broken game mechanic fixed? Thanks! It's a rather large 'bug/feature'.
Seems he's not even top5 score... If he's outpaced everybody by so much, what's that say about those above him? o.O
May 25 2008 5:08 PM EDT
May 25 2008 5:39 PM EDT
Nobody can beat him MPR, but new characters can potentially get enough MPR to beat him with a tattoo.
However, the key word is NEW. Anyone who cannot beat him now, never will. Due to the fact older characters are the red headed stepchildren of CB.
And this is any different than someone getting 10k winning streaks regularly and being unwilling to admit that their char is mortal...how? :P
May 25 2008 7:57 PM EDT
Hatchet, what do high win streaks and score have to do with anything? Everyone knows MPR is the name of the game here. Stop throwing subtle insults at Ranger and focus on the point of the thread.
May 25 2008 8:07 PM EDT
well for old players... theres always NCB... and since they have large tatts wouldnt they be able to pwn him? and since you can grow your tatt via NCB example: Relic
couldnt you run 1 or 2 NCB just to level your tattoo then run a largely ROE one and catch up and beat LA?
doesnt really seem broken to me
although i still "BEG" jon to change the LENGTH of the N*B instead of the bonus... when they reach the region of 1k% bonus people will begin to understand what im talking about
I tend not to insult subtley. If i truly intended to offend Ranger (which was not at all my intent), it likely would have been more obvious. People lose a lot of battles, and never lose a bit of MPR from it. MPR is a big part of the game, but from the looks of things, he is moreso defeatable than Koy was when everything was "working right" and even now that his team has been broken. This is not a shot at Ranger or Koy, his char just makes a prime example of somebody "competing"
If LA was that "unbeatable" to the point where he has broked our CB2s, why is he not even in the top 5 score ladder? He has more MPR, we has tattoos. FTW gets pwned. Done.
May 25 2008 8:13 PM EDT
Look at it this way, Hatchet.
He's increasing at 100% efficiency.
With the way the system works now, anyone with lower MPR increases at a lower efficiency. If they aren't using a RoE, even moreso.
The problem is that the gap is widening and will continue to widen between LA and his competition. The effects of the MPR advantage are not quite so obvious yet, but as that gap widens it'll be much more visible. At the current rate, due to game mechanics, he -will- be far past any of the current characters, and the ONLY way to compete with him (for a while, until he increases the gap enough) will be to NCB.
Again, none of this is LA's fault. He's just doing his job as a great player. This is a flaw in the game mechanics.
Ranger's "non-competitiveness" stems more from usage of a powerful strategy, high NW, and high MPR.
May 25 2008 8:17 PM EDT
well... is not it why the NCB was put there in the first place? to address the issue of people having WAY larger characters then others?
ok if you were to be able to change things... what OTHER then rolling bonus would your propose? "nerf" LA's MPR? boost challenge bonus?
May 25 2008 8:26 PM EDT
One thought would be allowing the RoE to function like the rolling bonus - what it adds increases with MPR difference and decreases as one approaches the top.
The alternative would be to get rid of the "base rewards" thing that you get simply for being a higher MPR than someone else.
Those are easy alternatives. I still think Rolling Bonus would be best, but Jon says no. ;'P After all, we can't let the game reward those who don't play as much. (you know, the way the 6/20 regen does.)
You're confused about base rewards OB...
It's the opponents PR that sets base rewards
May 25 2008 8:44 PM EDT
But there was something about BA cost increasing and giving higher rewards, which would mean the wider the gap between his BA cost and the next contender, the higher the rewards gap becomes as well....
"well... is not it why the NCB was put there in the first place? to address the issue of people having WAY larger characters then others?"
Sure, if the NCB 'works'.
As it stands now, you have one chance (unless, of course, you have mountains of USD to spend). If you fail that chance, you must spend what seems to be an eternity to build up for another chance (which may fail, as well). Your best hope is to realize that you're not going to make it, cut your losses at a few million, and try again. Even then, that's a few million less to spend on the all-important gear or BA for your next NCB.
Even LA had to spend USD to achieve what he has.
And with the ever-increasing cost of an NCB...
May 25 2008 8:55 PM EDT
well if it means tuning up cash rewards... im so all for it =x i just think its pretty much fine... plenty of ways to earn money
May 25 2008 9:04 PM EDT
Yeah, I've said before I think the whole N*B system needs a reworking, Tyriel....but I have a feeling Jon's worked long and hard on the current system and doesn't want to throw all that effort away - and I can't blame him.
But pretty soon, it'll be massive EXP dumped into a tiny 4 month period in which a player has to create a new fightlist after every 160 fights to compete, less during EXP time, and where s/he can't miss a single BA without being penalized like 1k MPR each. That'll also come with HUGE BA cost for those running a NCB.
I think the NUB is fine. No one except LA has done this amazing thing with NUB... and I doubt anyone folllowing after him will do it. He is a rarity. For everyone else (including myself), NUB functions as it is supposed to, and helps us get to where we can be competitive. Nothing more, nothing less.
The game is far from broken.
May 25 2008 9:14 PM EDT
Um, ya missed it Calynne. ;)
May 25 2008 9:15 PM EDT
The problem is -exactly- that nobody will ever do it again.
I didn't miss it... I just don't consider him being stuck up there by his lonesome as a problem. ;)
May 25 2008 9:45 PM EDT
If Jon's calculations of where the top player will be in 4 months includes use of a ROE, then it can be done again.
As I recall reading in the past, when discussions of this nature were common, the N*B percentage is based up where the top player will be in 4 months. When the N*B is over.
Till recently, I suspect it was calculated on Koy using his TOE. Since I never used a ROE but for a very short time. During that time, I wanted to see if using a ROE for MPR was better then growing my TOE. Now I am back to my TOE for good.
But now, it should be calculated upon Little Anthony and his use of a ROE, instead of a Tattoo. Since that is how his character appears (at least to myself) to be fighting this way for a long time. As a high level tattoo for him to use is almost too expensive.
To sum up:
As Little Anthony proved the N*B percentage is close to perfect, if based upon Koy being the top character. LA passed me only buying minions. Which given the amount he is ahead, is perfect by what I think the NUB should do.
Now that LA is at the top, is the N*B still perfect? If not, Jon can adjust it to be. So what LA did, should be possible with a correct N*B.
No change in the game mechanics that I can see. IMO, it is working exactly as Jon wanted.
May 25 2008 9:46 PM EDT
Thanks, LC, for giving me this link.
I would like here to revise my thesis.
LA is not getting higher base rewards by BA cost after all - I never read the conclusion found in this
thread. However, he is getting increased rewards over Ranger via RoE, and against anyone who cannot fight as high PR-wise against opponents he gets increased rewards as far as base rewards go.
This means that against most opponents, he is increasing well beyond the 23% that the RoE provides. Against Ranger, it is decreased. However, once the MPR gap widens and he can beat opponents with more equivalent PR to those Ranger beats, the base rewards gap will drop and he'll increase in rewards by the full 23% against Ranger.
This will create a snowball effect - his base rewards increase as his MPR gap increases, allowing the MPR gap to increase at a more rapid pace, until the two reach equilibrium at a point where each point of EXP increases MPR by a lesser enough amount that he no longer gains ground over Ranger.
In other words, he'll reach the point at which 123% EXP is required to make the same MPR as 100% of Ranger's. How far ahead is that? I don't know, but I have a feeling it is a pretty good way ahead of him.
Additionally, this calls into question whether or not the N*B accounts for the top character using a RoE. AFAIK, it is based on the character's current MPR and a formula that Jon has devised as to the rate at which a N*B character must grow. I do not believe that it takes into account the RoE, as that presents a few still flawed possibilities:
1) That the N*B takes into account the growth of a character during the time before the present time at which N*B calculates growth necessary to achieve its goal, which would mean N*B rates increased exponentially whenever a N*B reached the #1 spot whilst retaining its bonus; or
2) That the N*B takes into account the current average rewards for the #1 character, which would mean should the character be using a normal tattoo and happen to test a RoE at the time a N*B is created, the N*B rate would be at an increased rate to adjust for the #1 character's currently altered average rewards, allowing for a positively flawed N*B bonus. This would also correspond with the problem found in (1).
I cannot help but conclude that the mechanics of the game are likely broken in respect to the presence of the RoE, and I feel like this is certainly a bug, not a feature.
May 25 2008 9:48 PM EDT
Calynne - I consider him being 'stuck up there' as a problem, since again, IIRC the idea behind CB2 was that anyone could be the top spot if they put in the appropriate effort.
May 25 2008 10:58 PM EDT
Well as time goes, the gap of dark zone of 7/20 increases tremendously, even if the bonus of N*B increases, we will never be as effective as LA. Furthermore, as time goes, when bonus becomes so large, missing 1 day of NUB is like missing a week for normal players, I don't know how wise that would be.
I am starting to wonder if I would get booted from 6/20 as soon as I enter it. I dare say I played quite competitively, as I am entering 7/20 in about 1 month 21 days. But looking at LA's growth rate... he's advancing just slightly slower than me who has all the bonuses.
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