Items define strategy more than Skills/Spells? (in General)
It seems to me, that strategy in CB2 is becoming more of what Rare items you can get your hands on, rather than how you build your teams.
Ignoring Tattoos, there seems to be more and more items introduced that have special properties that aren't covered by minion abilities, that are exceptionally strat changing.
Like the TSA, VB, Leadership and AoI.
The invisibility granted by an AoI is a massive strategic impact, but unless you're lucky enough to own one (or two or three...) there's no way to utilise this strategy. Just like the TSA regen or the VB's ability to cut thorugh AC/ToE.
Now we're getting more Leadership and I'm sure other 'special' properties will come in the next batch of new armour.
Personally, I think I'd like to see ways for Minions to replace properties like those above. This isn't really a desire to have an XP option for NW stuff, as most of the specials (like Invisiblilty) don't have a NW cost. they just are.
The minion based ways would have to be different, and costly, to make using the item a valid choice. Like maybe having a new ED called Invisibility that has an effect equal to the number of rounds that minion stays invisible for. Or Regeneration, that needs to be trained to a percentage of naturally HP in order to provide the maximum amount regenerated per round.
I would still want a difference between minion abilites and properties through items (more so than the DM immune VA of the Morg and BoTH), with items able to free up ability slots (or vice versa).
Rarity in items is interesting, and giving people what they want isn't always the best idea. Jon has been willing to deal with outlandishly hard to get items before, I don't see a reason he won't in the future.
we all seem to be demanding new items, but never new ways to spend XP. :P
I guess its harder for existing teams to utilise new skill/EO/ED because its costly to retrain. and the cost of making a mistake is high.
June 17 2008 9:05 AM EDT
Imagine in WoW or Evercrack, if every top 25% character has the sword of ultimate destruction. Along with the armor on invulnerability.
Well it seems that is what people want for CB.
June 17 2008 9:09 AM EDT
I've never had many items; but I can get hold of the ones I need to as and when I've needed them.
But I can't say I've ever built a strat around an item. Except maybe my current one (which is actually an old strat of mine recycled anyhow), where I built it around the idea of the mage shield walls. Two of them!! This particular strat doesn't actually work as well without them. The same goes for the ToE. In fact against some people I beat now, if I was to go without those items I would lose.
But I'd love to be able to achieve what I'm doing with XP alone. That would be amazing!
imagine though if only one or two have the uber item.
most mmorpg's have evolved and there is no one epic item but many. even for one character class there is no one item that is best in all situations. very similar to what i think jon is shooting for in cb.
June 17 2008 9:15 AM EDT
The only item I think that is "essential" to a strategy is the AoI.
The other items can help buff or boost one but is not essential.
And the only items that are very difficult to get are supporter items.
Of which the TSA, AoF, AoI and MgS are the most needed. But I think the AoI is the one that is needed.
June 17 2008 9:52 AM EDT
"The only item I think that is "essential" to a strategy is the AoI.
The other items can help buff or boost one but is not essential."
They *ONLY* give a boost, you say?
+10 EBs, +10EC, +10EGs, +10AoF
That's +60% to your evasion. Only a boost. To top it off, those numbers are far from difficult to achieve, though getting an AoF isn't always easy.
I think that the IDEA is that items should only give a boost. This is part of why I'd like to see the upgrade curve of all items adjusted so that it costs more to upgrade. This would, of course mean that the curve needs to change so the current common values aren't completely outlandish, merely expensive.
June 17 2008 9:55 AM EDT
So higher MPR always wins?
June 17 2008 10:01 AM EDT
Is it not probable that that result is close at hand? As items continue to grow, as well as their upgrade curves, it will get harder and harder to achieve greater increases, since rewards do not grow similarly.
June 17 2008 10:06 AM EDT
MPR always wins?
Good question. Items FTW!
*liking being able to beat larger teams*
"Imagine in WoW or Evercrack, if every top 25% character has the sword of ultimate destruction. Along with the armor on invulnerability.
Well it seems that is what people want for CB."
That's why (much to the disgust of the 'hardcore' Raiders) WoW had the sense to introudce Badge Loot for casual players that's on par with the loot dropped from end game Raids. ;)
But I'm digressing. In additon to the AoI (which is probably the largest example) I'd add in things like the TSA as well. If you want to utilse the PL - TSA uber defense mode, you need the TSA. Nothing else gives in game regen.
You can build a heavy AC PL damage reduciton team, but it lacks if you've not got a TSA on your PL battery.
I've not got an issue with the +% to existing stats properties of items, just the unqiue strategy changing properties that XP cannot get.
We could always make things like the AoI store spawning common items, it's not like it has any sort of real NW impact on the team using it.
June 17 2008 10:10 AM EDT
I understand your problems with the way things are now.
However, the items you mention, aside from the AOI, are not "essential".
They help, of course, but are not "needed".
One can have a high HP/PL battery, and in fact, people did it before the TSA was introduced.
But for gameplay mechanics, esp with MM hitting from behind, the AOI is essential for multiminion characters.
June 17 2008 10:12 AM EDT
I mean, since the amount required to upgrade a thing one more + keeps on growing, and the effectiveness of that extra+ keeps on shrinking, eventually the difference between the 'richer' players and the 'poorer' players will dwindle to nothing. *One* extra +, at say... +*1000* DBs isn't going to be a large difference in effectiveness. Unless of course currently people with large items are able to compound their advantage to gain a greater boost in income. But that is not the case. And even if it were, they would still be fighting against this basic effect.
i hear ya draug, and i agree. that is one point i was trying to make with some of the evasion/aof posts in other threads. with the non-linear upgrade curves and characters enc thresholds only rising over time, many issues will correct themselves.
i also think that we are seeing a desire to still allow usd investment to get some aspects of your character to their destination faster and that is the only advantage given...others will still get to the same place over time.
what i wonder about though is the defensive dex granted by evasion and the fact that it uses linear growth instead of a curve, but i guess that is the counter to linear weapon damage costs. perhaps both should be put back on curves?
June 17 2008 10:59 AM EDT
Tanks dex is linear so defensive dex sort of has to be in order to be an adequate foil.
But as a few of us have stated in the past, the AOF removes the equality in boosting each.
I agree the AoI is currently the best example of what I'm trying to get across. ;) I'm just not trying to make this an AoI focused thread, just a little more general.
Its like Leadership, while some might not call that essential, you would build a strategy around having a Leadership minion in the front, just to use its bonus. But that bonus (and therefore strategy set up) is only provided by two items.
well back to the discussion at hand then, with disposable teams, items are really the only constant. they truly do become the strategy and vice versa. i would say this is the main difference between cb1 and cb2 now. in cb1 the man wore the clothes, in cb2 the clothes make the man.
Aye... I'm really feeling I liked it the other way round. :(
in CB1 weapons made the team
CB2 has balance... you don't need items... you just want to be able to do things that items allow you to do without them...
Items and NW SHOULD do something... that is CB2
June 17 2008 12:17 PM EDT
That is probably true in many cases, dudemus.
Myself, every time I started a new NCB I had to go change out gears to match the new strat :P
June 17 2008 2:19 PM EDT
I do agree with GL in that the AOI is a nice item, almost a must have for a few strategies.
They should be more available IMO.
June 17 2008 2:21 PM EDT
I don't think any supporter item should be made more available... ever.
Supporter items should become rare enough over time that they limit the amount of characters able to use certain strategies. Even at very high levels with tons of CB$ and USD.
June 17 2008 3:29 PM EDT
Then perhaps, since the AOI is a game changing type item and quite essential, should it be changed from supporter item to rare item?
June 17 2008 5:32 PM EDT
The AoI is not essential - it, like the TSA, allow for more strategies to be used, but not owning one does not mean you can't run an extremely competitive team...
Koy doesn't use one, Edy doesn't use one.
2 of the top 5 teams don't use an AoI.
Now, a HoC... that gives a straight-up advantage and without one, any team that uses mage or range would be at a strict disadvantage.
If any item should be changed from "supporter" to "rare", it should be the HoC - even though it was (recently) reintroduced.
actually oddly enough the HoC does a lot less than it used to with the addition of 2 more ranged rounds... there are a number of people moving away from using it... some even with ranged focus
Ignoring Tattoo's, which of the other Supporter items actually stop you using a particular strategy, instead of just making your existing one worse from not using them?
GL... a lower thread is calling you
Hah! Should have checked the Changelog.. ;)
I'm focused on ranged in order to kill off dex using my axbow so that my jig and VB can really kill off the enemy.
I myself have chosen the HoC previously and found that it has a much worse effect than my HoE.
The extra rounds provided by the HoC are bad news for tanks as ammo is just wasted on anybody with evasion since it is playing into the hands of the bonuses, FB and MM mages on the other hand do benefit.
I know this hasn't quite been on topic but I felt I definitely needed to dispute the HoC point, a tank needs a lot of + in his ranged weapon to be worth it.
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