Q about SMFB (in General)

VivaPinata June 24 2008 3:07 PM EDT

As most new characters seem to do, I current have a single fireball mage team. My question is about what tattoo I should invest in. Right now, I have a lesser ToE. But with a newfound wealth from having nothing to buy, I'm looking to upgrade my tattoo into a standard one. Then there's also the recent nerf to ToE's. So what tattoo/rune/familiar would be best for me? Please and thank you! :D

QBOddBird June 24 2008 3:09 PM EDT

I say Halidon, but I'm slightly biased toward everyone using a Halidon.

Most would suggest a Steel or Fire Familiar.

j'bob June 24 2008 4:16 PM EDT

I don't know how big the lesser tat you have now is, but if you want to see what it's like, I'll loan you A Steel Familiar lvl 44,029 for a week. Then if you can find a decent sized FF you can compare. CM me if you wanna borrow it.

j'bob June 24 2008 4:17 PM EDT

For that matter, I can loan you a Hal or a Jiggy, but they're in the lower 10-20k level range. They're all well below your MTL so it doesn't matter to me at all, just let me know.

TheHatchetman June 24 2008 7:02 PM EDT

"I'm slightly biased toward everyone using a Halidon. "

I can't let you do that, Nate!

j'bob June 24 2008 7:05 PM EDT

ob's new name


Sickone June 24 2008 7:06 PM EDT

RoE would be the best tattoo to use for fast growth (up to 50% faster compared to using a regular tattoo), second best it's still a ToE (provided you keep your FB high and HP low), third best it's a tie between a familiar (fireball or magic missile) or a RoBF, most useful if you keep HP and/or evasion high.

Of course, all just IMO.

VivaPinata June 24 2008 8:28 PM EDT

Hereメs an update on my thoughts after trying out the Jiggy, Steel, and Halidon familiars (thanks, jメbob!):

- The Jiggy is almost useless for me, since 1.) I usually win fights in ranged or not at all and 2.) fireball. However, it does wall slightly better than the others, I think.
- The Steel I had high hopes for, but due to the popularity of AMF, it didnメt fare as well as Iメd expected. But it is only level 44k though and is being used against characters of ~180k PR. I suspect it couldメve done better against teams that hid damage-dealers in the back, but those donメt really seem to be a problem at the moment.
- The Halidon was surprisingly good. At (26k) nearly half the level of Steel, it managed to always do more damage except against EC or tanks. But my character didnメt have any problems fighting EC characters and fights against tanks were won based on networth. So IMO, Halidon easily outrivals Steel.
- With my own ToE (79k), I won against all of the test subjects as opposed to Steel (6/10) and Halidon (9/10, but 3 were close). The protection it provided against AMF made the difference, I think. On the other hand, the ToE is stronger and my stats were trained with endurance in mind.
- I havenメt been able to try a Fire Familiar yet, but Iメm assuming that it will work similarly as the Steel.

So in conclusion, the Halidon lives up to OBメs praise. The damage potential is tempting, itメs a novel concept fit for the songs of bards, and I even hear that the whole モpocket archerヤ look really attracts the ladies. Totally overbidded for one in the auctions. Oo Thanks, OB, for the advice! ^^

モRoE would be the best tattoo to use for fast growth (up to 50% faster compared to using a regular tattoo), second best it's still a ToE (provided you keep your FB high and HP low), third best it's a tie between a familiar (fireball or magic missile) or a RoBF, most useful if you keep HP and/or evasion high.ヤ

Enlightenment would be freaking awesome, but unfortunately, Iメm not Seongcheol (google) nor do I have 3M to spare. As for renting one, that would possibly, severely handicap my モto actually win future battlesヤ fund. ToE, Iメve tried it and as tattoos go, itメs solid; Iメve got to say, the AMF reduction is pretty sweet. But the recent nerf worries me. Moreover, I only really valued the ToE for its anti-AMF, but thatメs without any mage equipment (Noldorin). I might not really need ToE, but I will certainly keep it on my mind if Halidon fails. As for RBF, I donメt have the money for evasion gear, so itメs not much of an option. Youメre an experienced SMFB, so I thank you for your input and I will certainly remember the advice when I can support it. Thanks :D

VivaPinata June 24 2008 8:29 PM EDT

About those 3/4's things... yeah. Not intentional, btw. -_-

three4thsforsaken June 24 2008 10:39 PM EDT

it's driving me crazy to get what's not intentional...

TheHatchetman June 25 2008 9:12 AM EDT

whenever he uses an apostrophe

TheHatchetman June 25 2008 9:13 AM EDT

proof of unintentional-ness, I only posted one... the other just kinda popped up...

VivaPinata June 25 2008 7:33 PM EDT

In case anybody should ever search for SMFB in the future, here's my thoughts about FF. Thanks due to ranger, I got to play with a fire familar at my max tattoo level (roughly twice as high as my ToE). So I equipped my new buddy, pressed "higher" a few times on the opponents list, and starting attacking people.

With the FF and fighting 10 random dudes, I only lost to one who had 50M worth of massive ranged damage. Unavoidable, I think. Two or three of the fights were very close ones, which I finished with less than 2k health. The second go around brought me 6/10 wins and 2 draws. Third and four times had similar results.

With my ToE and fighting the same dudes, I first lost to 2 people. The newcomer was a two minion team with junction/fireball; I managed to take out the junction wall, but eventually succumbed to the fireball. On my second go around with the ToE, I won only 3/10 of the battles and drew 4 more. Interesting thing to note: I managed to do more total damage on average with the ToE than the FF despite losing more battles.

In conclusion, the Fire Familiar is a very fitting tattoo for the SMFB. The wall of health helps against opposing fireballs and CoCs that can become really damaging when focused on a single minion. At my maximum tattoo level, the Fire Familar also did a similar amount of damage as I did (mostly slightly lower, occasionally higher) and lasted at least 2-4 rounds. For the ToE's defense, it allowed me to stay alive longer against MM mages and ultimately do more damage. Prior to the nerf, ToE > FF easily, but now... Although it is hard to judge based on tattoos of drastically different levels, I want to say that the FF > ToE. Thanks for listening. ^^

VivaPinata June 25 2008 9:47 PM EDT

Yet another update.

After ranger graciously loaned me the Big Brother of world-dominating communist tattoos (like seriously, is there like some secret help-people contest? Like wowzers...), I immediately went over to "Home>Strongest Tattoos>Tattoo of Endurance>Screenshot" and then took Steeds out for few rounds against those same poor, random dudes.

First round: 9 wins, 1 loss.
Second round: 8 wins, 2 losses.
Third round: 9 wins, 1 loss.

I'm attributing that extra lost in round 2 to unluckiness. Compared to the (also max level) FF I tested with earlier, I won the battles with more health (roughly 20-40% remaining while fighting with ToE instead of 5-20% with FF). I get to eat my words about the ToE. It's still quite the contender. But some things to note are the facts that...

1.) I trained roughly 70k more experience since the last and
2.) the ToE is not only named, it's the most epic ToE in the game.
3.) My trained experience is more focused in fireball, since I had formerly relied on ToE. Would explain why the ToE works so well in comparison to the FF.

Thanks, ranger :D

lostling June 25 2008 9:53 PM EDT

Draugluin would be a good choice to look at for FF + FB synergy
as for TOE(and all other tattoos)... the max effect is only at your max tattoo level... the recent TOE "nerfs" werent as bad as everyone thought... the max reduction IS still 75% damage reduction... however i believe the cap has been reduced by 20% from the once 50% main 40% aura to 40% main 32% aura so the TOE is not a bad choice in tattoos...

Sickone June 25 2008 10:31 PM EDT

Let's put it in a different way.

The ToE has the potential to magnify your effective HP up to 4 times (limitation of how much HP per round can be "multiplied" like that depends on tattoo level).
Even with a mere 40% of tattoo level (or, heck, the 32% aura), that's still a lot of absorbable damage / multipliable health.
For instance, I have right now 8,376,732 raw levels of various things trained (at 1,891,752 MPR) and a max tattoo of 4,188,366 (my ToE is barely lvl 2,616,027 right now, but it could have been over level 3 mil if I would have used it sooner more).

The point is, one would hardly train more than 1/3 of its levels in HP, and for me that's barely above 2 mil HP.
With a 3 mil ToE, that means a 1.2 mil damage blow/hit gets reduced to a 300k blow/hit ; in other words, what it would have normally taken just 2 blows/rounds to kill me normally, now it will take 7 blows/rounds. That's a whole lot more survivability, if you ask me.

Conversely, even if the enemy has absolutely no damage reduction at all, at best a 3 mil level Fire Familiar (compared to my roughly 30% HP, 70% fireball right now) would mean a pathetic addition of 750k HP (barely one third extra raw HP, while losing the ToE extension) and 3 mil raw fireball (a mere 50% extra damage potential, AT BEST).
Not to mention that if you use a FF you have to train Junction (a significant amount of levels) in order to have your familiar fully take advantage of the rest of your gear.

All in all, a fireball mage with a FF can't possibly beat much more opponents than a ToE SFBM, but it can be significantly worse (i.e. fail to beat a lot).
Again, just IMO.

VivaPinata June 26 2008 12:55 AM EDT

"Draugluin would be a good choice to look at for FF + FB synergy"

After a long, epic journey involving an overly elaborate plot centered around how to search for users, I finally managed to inspect Draugluin. And okay, I really don't mean any offense (I've lost my tact to the late hours), but his 24 hour battlelogs kind of proves you wrong; his fight list smartly (but hardly boastfully) involves characters at 60%-80% of his own PR. On the other hand, his get pounded by list includes at least one other SMFB who uses a Jiggy, is lower PRwise, and who defeats him in 3 rounds. Drauglin, who I'm sure is an awesome fellow and one of the few people who takes on the challenge of using a FF, isn't exactly a great model of FF+FB perfection.

"Let's put it in a different way."

Sickone's credentials speak for him. His experience has been tested in the forge of his battlelogs (I highly doubt that will make sense to me in the morning), and this is a dude who knows what's he's talking about. Now I'm going to stop talking about you in third person. Your points are well made, and as far as I can tell now, the advantages of the ToE are indisputable. Starting anything with the "to magnify your effective HP up to 4 times" gets my attention, and backing those words up with math keeps it. Wowzers. O_o

three4thsforsaken June 26 2008 1:07 AM EDT

I would like to point out that there is no ONE way. Just because a person feels ToE is the best choice for SFBM doesn't mean it is. Just because everyone uses one doesn't mean it's your only option.

On the other side of the argument the purpose of SFBM is not to survive, it's to survive long enough, or more accurately, survive longer than the main damage dealer. The purpose at higher levels of a FF is to add an offensive boost, but yes, it does have issues of general survivability. I think a HF would actually benefit a SFBM junctioned with with a large pair of DBs, as they already get a large dex boost.

I mean, my point is, there is no perfect in CB.

lostling June 26 2008 1:35 AM EDT

i wasnt saying that FB + FF is the best choice... or that draug was the best... infact i promoted the TOE as being nerf but not dead...

speaking of sickone... he is not in a clan so he wouldnt be farmed more then draugluin...

lostling June 26 2008 1:44 AM EDT

not to mention sickone 's tattoo is way bigger then draugluin 's

Flamey June 26 2008 1:47 AM EDT

Viva, check my strategy/battle log. It looks horrible. Some things can't be helped. I constantly get hit for more battles than I can fight in a day. Yes I have a few challenged losses due to my clumsiness, but my strat isn't horrible, I just don't have a RoE.

You can't judge compared to who they get farmed by, that's silly.

Sickone June 26 2008 5:42 AM EDT

"speaking of sickone... he is not in a clan so he wouldnt be farmed more then draugluin"

I was in Bleach for a long time, usually hovering around +500 to +1000 score or so (+3000/+3500, -2000/-2500) most of the time.
Problem was, a large number of Bleach was composed of SFBMs, and when several hit an inactivity spell for a couple of days, clan ended up auto-disbanded.

If you want a better, current example of a TOE-SFBM in a clan, look at BlueWolf's " Fasunaus II ".
He has a higher base fireball but no AGs so a lower effective FB level (compared to me), but almost double the HP and a larger ToE.

VivaPinata June 26 2008 10:43 AM EDT

"I would like to point out that there is no ONE way. Just because a person feels ToE is the best choice for SFBM doesn't mean it is. Just because everyone uses one doesn't mean it's your only option."

I agree, that there isn't; a game can hardly be called competitive if there was a perfect build. At that, a game could hardly be called fun. And again, I agree with you--CB is one of those fun games. The FF strategy can be used to shut down late-round strategies (i.e. CoC or melee tanks) and others. It can, at my ranks, help me win most of my battles with ease. However continuing with the FF, as I (hopefully) progress up the ranks, my choice of victims will have to become more specialized. Powerful MM teams or Robin Hoods will have to be out. All characters will more or less become better at fighting certain opponents, but teams who focus on speed and efficiency (who can rip into you almost as well as you can rip into them) are common. Add in a few more minions to these teams, and I think "surviving long enough" doesn't happen.

On the other hand, the ToE is a much more balanced build who pits your durability against their durability. Quick striking builds (aforementioned) tend to lost their chances of winning the longer a battle lasts, and ToE can capitalizes on that. Not to mention the all too common AMF. ToE SMFB will ultimately never capture the damage potential of FF builds, but the opposite can be said about "surviving long enough" against a large number of builds. This is personal preference of course, but I favor the versatity of ToE or Halidon than the focused magical ownage of Steel and FF. Pretty much everything I said was speculation, btw.

"not to mention sickone 's tattoo is way bigger then draugluin 's"
"You can't judge compared to who they get farmed by, that's silly."

I'm addressing both the quotes at the same time, because I can. Beeeyah! Maybe it's not fair to judge Draugluin's battles in comparison to Sickone's. Draug's networth is weaker, he has a weaker tattoo (which might explain the first), and no CB Supporting T-Shirt. Instead of relying on health, he focuses (with extra focus from AoF no less) on junction to survive and trains what I can only imagine to be a massive fireball. Thus, as I talked about previously in this post, his choice of opponents are either specialized or plain weaker in PR. Flamey, I emphasize who a person farms. I went down his "Attacked" list, inspected pretty much every target. Then I went down his "Attacked by" list, looking for other SMFBs in particular. From those findings, I bagged on him. I understand that there is a deadzone of fighting. I don't know where it is exactly, and Drauglin may even be swimming in the deep end of it. If that's the case, some things I said were certainly unfair. However I still think there is a specialized group of characters that FF can really do well against, but I didn't find them in his logs. Which insinuates either these people are rare enough to make the FF strategy not preferrable or that Draugluin isn't the greatest portrayal of the FF+SMFB combo.

"If you want a better, current example of a TOE-SFBM in a clan, look at BlueWolf's " Fasunaus II "."

I didn't realize that BlueWolf was a ToE SMFB or I would've jumped onto the ToE bandwagon before last night. I have a lot of respect for BlueWolf's character from previous "looking at's" of the top characters. After your claims of greatness, I went to search for others who agree with your IMO in the strongest ToEs listings. And there he was, under a few massive characters--a fact which further encouraged me to like the ToE. Many other builds can also use it to efficiency, as the tattoo's strength only gets stronger with each additional minion. All in all, a ToE invested now looks to be a solid investment.

Wizard'sFirstRule June 26 2008 10:43 AM EDT

the idea of training more HP instead of FB is just so that I don't lose so much XP when I actually manage to retrain into a wall-like minitank. There isn't much strategic thoughts into it.
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