Prophecies's familiar touches Hard  (in General)
July 5 2008 2:00 AM EDT
This new familiar rocks!!!!
vs 503 AC.
Prophecies's familiar touches Omg! 
vs. 46 AC.
July 5 2008 3:03 AM EDT
SG = OP enuff said -.-
maybe I should reink my ToE to a LF. is it just me or has the forums got quiet?
July 5 2008 6:41 AM EDT
^Cause of the fourth of July here in the US, I assume.
Or perhaps on account of it being anywhere between 3:41 AM and 6:41 AM.
July 5 2008 6:44 AM EDT
Thats the secondary reason.
July 5 2008 8:50 AM EDT
I agree with all those that stated the SG/EF is a perfect foil for all those heavy walls out there.
Rock on Electric!!!!
July 5 2008 8:58 AM EDT
Prophecies's familiar touches Omg! 
July 5 2008 9:21 AM EDT
DD Cast / Avg Damage 4 / 5,499,046
Got to love those NSC's that basically nerf all AMF.
Highest AMF vs me is .25, so my familiar only does 4M damage vs that character.
July 5 2008 10:52 AM EDT
Does it change your fight list any more than CoC/IF, though?
That's the real question, isn't it? Whether a god smotes me with a ice ball or a sphere of electricity doesn't really matter if they both result in death...
So, are you saying the Electric Familiar changes your fight list one way or another?
July 5 2008 10:54 AM EDT
With a IF or SF or FF I lose to Conundrum, LA and sometimes NWO.
With a HF, I do not even kill 1 of LAs minion when he uses a TOE.
With the EF, life is so easy now. The only character giving me a bit of a problem is NWO.
LA with his new 5M TOE only kills 1 of my minions.
So yes, it does significantly change my battles.
July 5 2008 11:07 AM EDT
So the gain from IF to EF, all things being equal, is 2-3 people?
CoC really cannot do in 4-5 rounds what SG can? That seems weird to me. Then again, things like ToE, PL, and TSA have always messed with my instinct here in CB2-land. If things that regenerated or transferred damage were not around (TSA and PL), would CoC still not get the job done? What exactly is the problem with it, in your estimation?
That is pretty impressive. I did not think there was that much difference once CoC got going vs. SG, so I appreciate that information.
July 5 2008 11:16 AM EDT
Here's my reasoning for previous questions: I think SG SHOULD hit harder than CoC. In theory, it should hit as hard as CoC. But the issues are these:
-- It is also enhanced by AC on the target, even not so much AC.
-- It overcomes all of the things that every other spell/attack suffers from: stepwise damage reduction and regeneration. So, CoC gets diminished more by ToE, PL, TSA, and also GA.
-- The intangible "one shot and out" phenomenon. While the theory of saying SG should be as strong as CoC (but concentrated) seems sound, killing any target in a single round is very, very final. It never really came up with the MM vs FB discussion before because MM is not such a killer (at least not without being pathetic first for 5 rounds...)
-- Make SG stuff not work with the Help of Clearsight. Hey, the helm interferes with the electricity! *smile*
-- Tone down the AC enhancing part of it, or do away with it entirely.
-- Tone it down entirely. That is tricky, though. You make it so that it needs two rounds to keep targets, and you have essentially cut the effectiveness in half -- a pretty harsh nerf for something that requires surviving till melee for.
Other solutions: make tanks hit as hard. From what I have read, that just isn't the case. If mages get a one-shot-dead offense, tanks should have the same. Even the biggest weapons do not seem to have that. Ranger, if you made Steeds back into a good ole ToA, would you be able to one-kill much of anything in melee? ToA plus big weapon plus BL? Because you should be able to if SG is going to be this strong.
July 5 2008 11:53 AM EDT
The problem I see with SG is that it's boosted by base AC, not actual AC - so if somebody has an 100 base AC minionl with no pluses at all, then SG will deal double of the normal damage.
If anything, SG should probably just ignore all AC instead of being boosted by base AC.
July 5 2008 11:54 AM EDT
I can say that when the SoD users were hitting for 3 to 5M it didn't last long!Enjoy it while it lasts.
> While the theory of saying SG should be as strong as CoC (but concentrated) seems sound, killing any target in a single round is very, very final.
_My_ theory is that in exchange for being concentrated, the concentrated spells should do less damage overall. SG does about 25% less total damage than CoC.
July 5 2008 12:09 PM EDT
sut please read :)
lets compare... FB vs MM...
FB deals MORE damage vs 1 minion compared to MM
however FB spreads its damage if theres more then 1 minion
lets compare... COC vs SG
COC deals more damage vs 1 minion compared to SG... only when base AC is < 75
when base AC is > 75 SG deals more damage
COC spreads its damage if theres more then 1 minion
FB vs 1minon = 0.5876
COC vs 1minion = 1.0285284
MM vs 1 minion = 0.4408
SG vs 1 minion 0 base AC = 0.588285335
SG vs 1 minion 106 base AC = 1.21186779
things to note: SG takes only slightly more damage then MM vs AMF even when boosted by base AC...
July 5 2008 12:12 PM EDT
My problem with SG vs CoC was that it took me longer to defeat people on my fightlist. The spread damage of CoC takes out a lot of my list in an average of 7 rounds. Whereas SG took at least 2 rounds longer. I lost a few people due to that because their damage dealer had a little more time to get me. Perhaps if my ToE was bigger or I had more HP it might have made a difference.
But mine was only hitting for about 2 mill per round. Against one opponent that can mean a lot of wasted damage. Whereas the CoC would hit for a total of about 2.5 million per round spread across minions. For me anyway, more effective.
July 5 2008 12:18 PM EDT
> _My_ theory is that in exchange for being concentrated, the concentrated spells should do less damage overall. SG does about 25% less total damage than CoC.
jon are you sure about this?
July 5 2008 12:25 PM EDT
Thanks to free retrain. Against a single minion opponent with only 5 AC and no other damage reduction>
The Hawk Of May's Cone of Cold hit The Wounded Horse 
The Hawk Of May touches The Wounded Horse 
July 5 2008 12:27 PM EDT
That's with CoC and SG at lvl: 3,373,585
July 5 2008 12:27 PM EDT
try against a high damage reduction
July 5 2008 12:27 PM EDT
In round 6
July 5 2008 12:28 PM EDT
Will do, but it'll have to wait until I've got some BA!
July 5 2008 12:33 PM EDT
against higher base AC i mean...
why do you think that SG doing better vs high AC would prove anything? that's how it's _supposed_ to work.
July 5 2008 12:52 PM EDT
if thats the way its meant to work then i guess it is OP lol... at least to me but yea :) its your game :)
July 5 2008 12:53 PM EDT
Jonathan, 25% less doesn't mean anything when it is a deathblow. Dead is dead. If a spell allows 1-2-3-4 kills, does it matter how much weaker it is?
I know we are talking about stratospheric tattoos and such. But if after all the changes and retrains, it is "biggest tattoo wins", is that the rock-scissors-paper game you want?
they don't one hit me...
HP in the top is frighteningly low, this is a brutal check against that.
July 5 2008 1:11 PM EDT
All that damage reduction made people forget how good basic HP can be to train.
It's too boring to think about for most people!
July 5 2008 1:13 PM EDT
7 million HP? You expect every minion to train 7 million native HP?
What exactly would be left for anything else other than a tattoo vs tattoo shoot out? I, for one, do not want to see all offense moved onto the shoulders of tattoos. That's the epitome of boredom.
July 5 2008 1:22 PM EDT
FoD, anyone? :p
July 5 2008 1:23 PM EDT
"_My_ theory is that in exchange for being concentrated, the concentrated spells should do less damage overall. SG does about 25% less total damage than CoC."
25% less *base* damage, you mean ?
Well, I'm pretty sure that it deals 50% more damage against 100 base AC, and all of it concentrated.
If it would deal 25% less damage in this situation, heck, even equal damage, then yes, it would be just perfect.
I've never seen SG come anywhere close to CoC damage on a single minion...like 3 mil difference
King Jamool's familiar touches The Grid  (OP???)
July 5 2008 2:13 PM EDT
might want to include total base AC :)
July 5 2008 3:27 PM EDT
I do cast 2 large AMF's vs novice's familiar for a .41 effect.
However my NSC take his AMF to 0.00.
I do 4 / 4,835,213 vs him. He does about 2 / 1,500,000 vs me on average.
Cloudscape has 526 total AC with a complete heavy wall set.
July 5 2008 3:28 PM EDT
AMF totals 7.6M levels together.
"If things that regenerated or transferred damage were not around (TSA and PL), would CoC still not get the job done? What exactly is the problem with it, in your estimation? "
minion spread, AC, MgS, ToE... Y'know... Layers, even in the summer ;)
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