Time to tune down E.G spell. (in General)
i propose something like 30% damage reduction. I also notice no "minion" (except Mikels') can withstand more than 2 hits with this spell. I also notice EG damage is not different from 10mil to 12mil in lvl period, and that concludes average of 6millions per hit. OP !
testing with 8mil EG to 12mil EG and 14mil EG (with items)
I now set my EG to base of 8millions and able to yield up to 10millions (soon)
drop it by that much and it becomes yet another thing the ToE can nerf to nothing...
Surviving it isn't easy, but it's very doable...
July 7 2008 6:10 PM EDT
I'm going to say this once, very clearly. The top 10 players in the game do not constitute the entirety of the game. EVERYTHING is OP at the top if used intelligently. Yes, it may be very powerful, but your CHARACTERS are very powerful as well.
Nerf SG is nerfing SG for EVERYONE. Not just you. Stop pointing at your 12 mil stat and saying it's too powerful. OF COURSE IT IS. 10 mil CoC hardly sucked.
I'm not saying that it doesn't need adjustment. I'm simply telling you to stop showing me one example (or two or even three) and saying it's grounds for a nerf.
Get some 100k MPR character with similar rates. Then 500k MPR. Then a mil. Etc,etc. Give Jon a reason besides "The highest MPR team in the game kills people with this. Must be OP."
July 7 2008 6:14 PM EDT
Well said, God!
July 7 2008 7:41 PM EDT
little anthony i agree its over powered... just tell them total levels that you have ... then the investment required for it to be a 1-2 hit ko spells
eg 25% of my total exp
Shocking Grasp 765,730 683,688 450,468 402,203
Those are the stats on -MY- SG. Its hits, on average, for about 300k.
Just thought we should get more info than the Top 10 in a thread that is demanding a nerf.
July 7 2008 7:56 PM EDT
Now hold on. If EG is a 2 hit kill spell, what's OP about that? Ooh, go me, I can beat you every time in, oh, about 14 rounds. Woot?
That's hardly OP.
Hell, a 1 hit kill spell is 10.
Get it. It's a melee cast spell. It HAS to be powerful or it's worthless.
I would, however think a change along reducing it's base damage, but scaling higher against AC would be better. Make it the VB of the mage world. Right now it's more like the ELS + Vorpal blade effect of the mage world.
July 7 2008 8:22 PM EDT
yes nov, surviving it for more than 2 rounds iis possible if you have one of the top xp minions casting AS. But most of us don't .
It should require a top level attribute to counter another top level attribute.
July 7 2008 8:59 PM EDT
"Get some 100k MPR character with similar rates. Then 500k MPR. Then a mil. Etc,etc."
I'm nowhere near the top. I haven't even hit 7/20 yet *sobs*.
I had to remove at least one person from my fight list this week because his Electric Familiar was easily killing off one of my minions per round, and there was absolutely no change I could make on my team to prevent it. No retraining, so item shuffling, no upgrading, nothing. It easily and totally killed one minion per round without fail. Even my Mage Shield wielding tank. One hit, gone.
And my 0 AC front minion, with an RoS boosted Ablative Shield? Gone in one hit as well. If Shocking Grasp is meant to do better vs. high AC, maybe low AC should provide a kind of counter to it, no? Makes sense to me.
Unfortunately, I forgot which character that was, and I'm hardly about to waste BA trying to find him (and lose..) again. But it was someone in my MPR range (1.3~1.6 million).
So there's an example from the 1.3 mill MPR camp. Sorry for not giving a name. You'll just have to take my word for it.
July 7 2008 9:04 PM EDT
im interested to see someone run a EF + SG combo... it could very "potientially" wipe out a team in 2 rounds :) + HOC = last ranged round + 1st melee round...
on a side note... yes melee tanks are all dead :)
July 7 2008 9:18 PM EDT
But not everyone has a high xp minion to combat the EF with.
AMF does almost nothing to it, AC makes it worse, the MgS is laughable vs it.
What does the normal character do?
I actually plan on doing that Lostling when I can get out of debt and get a new NCB up and running. I have most of the gear for it.
July 7 2008 9:26 PM EDT
"AMF does almost nothing to it, AC makes it worse, the MgS is laughable vs it.
What does the normal character do?"
July 7 2008 9:36 PM EDT
how about... every 1% increase in damage AMF hits them for 1% more... that would make sense...
July 7 2008 9:51 PM EDT
I just wish SG would hit 0 AC minions for a stupidly low amount, say 20% of level. Then every point of AC would multiply that amount by a certain level, approaching nigh-unstoppable, multi-million, insta-kill damage points on those chars with high AC (~400).
Mid AC, say mine (~140) would take moderate damage, closer to Magic Missile.
July 7 2008 9:52 PM EDT
currently it deals 20% more damage compared to MM vs 0 AC minions
July 7 2008 9:59 PM EDT
That should be reversed at the least.
July 7 2008 10:30 PM EDT
the damage is a bonus for getting the minion to live to melee your options are to 1) Kill the minion in ranged before it can fire(msk) or 2)try to outlive/GA the minion to death in melee before you're toasted, honestly nobody seems to think about using ED and DM isn't that popular so I don't see the problem.
I currently have no problem with something strong enough to kill 1 minion at a time think of it as a single minion targeting CoC only it doesn't have to deal with million+ damage recoil
July 7 2008 11:31 PM EDT
Prophecies's familiar touches Noise 
Noise's Guardian Angel smote Prophecies's familiar (396560)
Still think GA is a viable way to deal with the new spell?
Yes, this is at the top, but lower down the scale should be the same.
The EF or SG doing tons of damage and GA doing a small percentage of return.
GA typically has to be 2.5x the damage done to return its max. There is no way one can get a GA that high and still have enough xp left to have an attack.
Nice thought, but not practical with the damage this new spell deals out.
July 7 2008 11:40 PM EDT
"the damage is a bonus for getting the minion to live to melee "
By that logic my Morgul Hammer should get a x2 bonus because I'm no longer able to equip a ranged weapon on my main tank. Remember, I have to live to melee to do any real damage as well.
Also, with the WA nerf, I'll never be able to have a weapon that comes close to the damage dealt by the new spell.
July 7 2008 11:41 PM EDT
ok let me lay it out for you... on a
0 AC wall...
SG deals 0.55 damage per lvl of skill this is before any leadership boost
lets say +34 BOF and +12 AOL.... that would be 17%+12% = 29% damage increase
so in the end you get... 0.7095 damage per lvl of skill on a 0 AC minion
106 base AC minion
0.55 * 2.06 = 1.133
1.133 * 1.29 = 1.46157 damage per lvl of skill...
so in order to counter the damage on a 0AC minion you need...
0.7095 * 2.5 = 1.77375 of the person's spell lvl
however... vs a 106 base AC minion
1.46157 * 2.5 = 3.653925 of the person's spell lvl
i mean seriously... he trains 100k SG and i have to train 365k GA not to mention have enough HP to take it?
July 7 2008 11:43 PM EDT
"By that logic my Morgul Hammer should get a x2 bonus because I'm no longer able to equip a ranged weapon on my main tank. Remember, I have to live to melee to do any real damage as well."
The truth is often funnier then fiction. I laughed my butt off when I read this, so true it is.
July 7 2008 11:48 PM EDT
melee weapons when compared to ranged weapons have 4x the rounds to hit without a dex penalty being applied that in itself is a bonus.
4m GA while large for an ED isn't overly impressive compared to most other stats in the top mpr range although seeing it returning only 1/10th it's level is surprising to me.
July 7 2008 11:54 PM EDT
"melee weapons when compared to ranged weapons have 4x the rounds to hit without a dex penalty being applied that in itself is a bonus. "
Melee spells when compared to ranged weapons have 4x the rounds to hit, without a dex penalty OR an Evasion penalty being applied. That in itself is a bonus.
And they hit harder. Always.
July 8 2008 12:06 AM EDT
"Melee spells when compared to ranged weapons have 4x the rounds to hit, without a dex penalty OR an Evasion penalty being applied. That in itself is a bonus."
Comparing spells to weapons is pointless one is money based while the other is exp based. I understand ENC give you a limit but equipping a 200m+ nw weapon doesn't seem to be a problem up top.
Weapons can also get double hits any problems with this statement would be about evasion which is designed to be a nuisance to tanks and nobody said you had to have 1 damage dealer.
I am starting to see a lack of possible defenses for this spell though maybe a change in the multiplying effect or GA needing a boost.
July 8 2008 12:09 AM EDT
Nobody is saying only 1 damage dealer is needed.
However, when you get into 2 or more, you get into xp dilution. Which makes each less effective.
This is a well known fact about CB.
And while tanks can hit up to 5 times a round, Only 1 hit from SG seems to be needed vs 98% of the minions out there.
There is no difference between simple dead, and dead with your head 2 miles from your body.
July 8 2008 12:09 AM EDT
*wonders if anyone reads my post*
the point is... COC deals more damage then FB... not to mention FB even deals damage to its teammates during melee... why shouldnt SG deal more damage then MM lol...
while it is hard to have a high level of EG, "good size" to 1-hit-kill EF is quite easier to obtain via junction. Yup! that's where i see a problem of 3mil tattoo + kills most of high level HP minion (AC or not)
July 8 2008 12:27 AM EDT
/me is waiting for LA to go with an EF instead of the TOE.
i did have 4mil ef. Damage is amazing nice. without aof , its damage is roughly equals to 6mil EG
"And while tanks can hit up to 5 times a round" 7? I think 7. Not that you can take out 1 minion per round with 7 hits, anyway.
I'll throw my name onto the "Thinks SG is Overpowered" list.
Can't separate the EF from SG anymore than you can separate the SF from MM. They need to be scaled back somewhat, I'm not sure an all around damage reduction is in line. I like the concept of low AC being a counter. Perhaps dropping the damage to about half of it's current, but increasing it's effectiveness against base AC, but that still means even lightly-armored teams have plenty to fear (An enchanter with AoF, BoF, Corn, and MCM faces a 40% increase while getting AC much above 100 isn't exactly obtainable, while a *light* melee tank with TSA, HoE, EBs, GoM, MenC, AoM, and BoM faces a 48% increase in damage, with an EXTREMELY low probability of ever exceeding 150 AC...).
Another suggestion, would be to have it's upgrade scale with the base AC. like 1 base AC would result in a damage increase of 0.05%, but 35 base would result in 10% increase, with 75 base providing a 70% increase, and 106 base adding a 130% increase (to make it deal with reduction the way it was truly meant to (I think! Unfortunately, none of us know exactly how the spell is *intended* to work), while disallowing it to be the hulking brute ripping through even not-so-conductive minions ~_^)
Idk, just some thoughts on the subject ^_^
Wow! I really need to start paying more attention... apparently everything I just said has already been said via Lord Bob :P Before making my reply, I had only gotten to:
"And my 0 AC front minion, with an RoS boosted Ablative Shield? Gone in one hit as well. If Shocking Grasp is meant to do better vs. high AC, maybe low AC should provide a kind of counter to it, no?"
July 8 2008 1:03 AM EDT
maybe have it do some sort of it's own backlash for each point of base AC the caster has? I dunno how that would work, maybe like AMF. Caster has base AC of 5 so it get's .05% backlash (could stack with AMF even)? I dunno... now that it came out I don't like the idea so much.
I think an alternative is to have (low base damage) + (SG level) * (base AC) * (modifier).
so against someone with 0 AC, you do a fixed 25 damage or so. at 1m level SG, you do 25 + 1000000 * AC * 0.00x% etc?
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